Leave tap jump on noobs - EXPLAINED

[Sever]

ok ... i for myself am a 100% sure that there is another way other then the guy trying to use an index finger on Y/X >_> and tap jump on ... i put jump on L in order to be able to do this move... i did so a looooooooong time ago and it functions perfect.. but well my controler conf may be weird.. i mean i got shield on R and Y so that i powershield projectiles with Y as well as chaingrab Mother's.. anyways putting jump on either L or R (depending on which of the two ur using as i assume that u do not use both of them.. may be a good way for some of you out there.. )

 

[ShortFuse]

I'm not asking to infinite drillshine. Just press Y with your index finger as you press B with your thumb as you normally do. that's it. one more button. it's not that hard.

TRY IT!!!

Sever, if it works for you, but most people aren't confortable changing their button scheme.

Again, HOLD L and Up with your left hand and press Y with right index and B with thumb. It's the SAME effect as turning Tap Jump on, but you have to manually jump. Since you hold L, you're stilll in shield and still get invincibility frames. This way, you get all the benefits of turning off Tap Jump and still get Marth's JC Dolphin Smash. It's seriously not hard. Everyone who says it's too hard hasn't even tried. JunkintheTrunk still thinks it has to do with "quick thumbs" when it doesn't. Just press Y with your index finger.
It's freaking easier than wavedashing.

 

[Magus420]

You guys realize if you're not using tap jump you can just press Y and B while only using your thumb and not needing to move it at all? You don't need to assign jump to L/R or press jump with your index finger. Have your thumb overtop of both buttons at the same time and press Y with the right side and then B with the joint of your thumb on the next frame like you'd time a JC grab in Melee. It's also how you can do perfect LHDLs easily with Falco in Melee.

When you Up-B out of shield you should have 1 vulnerable frame at best, which is your jump frame that cancels the shield and allows the up-B. You can achieve this with either method. Using tap jump is easier, but you can get the same result either way.

 

[ShortFuse]

You guys realize if you're not using tap jump you can just press Y and B while only using your thumb and not needing to move it at all? You don't need to assign jump to L/R or press jump with your index finger. Have your thumb overtop of both buttons at the same time and press Y with the end of your thumb and B with the other part on the next frame like you'd time a JC grab in Melee. It's also how you can do perfect LHDLs easily with Falco in Melee.

When you Up-B out of shield you should have 1 vulnerable frame at best, which is your jump frame that cancels the shield and allows the up-B. You can do this with either method.

I'm not sure, but I think if you press Y and B and the same time with tap jump off, you'll have 0 frames, since you press at the same exact time (or within 16.667ms (1/60th of a second) of each other).

I record at 480p and 60fps so I can get frame by frame analysis and let you guys know.
One question: With tap jump on, if you hold shield and slow lift the analog stick up and then you have the shield shift upwards, and you press B, will it work?

That might have been too confusing.

Hold L, tilt analog up (SLOWLY) and you should have Marth shield protecting his top half. If you press B, then and there, does the Dolphin Slash come out?

Logic tells me no.

If that's the case, then you have 1 frame of vulnerabilty with tap jump on and 0 frames (if you press Y and B at the same time or within 16.667 ms) of vulnerability with tap jump off.


There is a difference. With a Jump Cancelled Reverse Up-Smash Hit, you can't press X and A at the same time. You need to wait 1 frame after pressing jump. It won't work if you press at the same time. This means it's a slide input (like in some fighters).
But this isn't the case. You can press them AT THE SAME TIME. You don't need to wait one frame to press B. You can press Y and B at the same time.

 

[Pierce7d]

When you Up-B out of shield you should have 1 vulnerable frame at best, which is your jump frame that cancels the shield and allows the up-B.

Eh, I'm pretty sure buffering is TOO good in this game. And even if, that 1 frame doesn't affect my game.

Well, we gave the advice. Tap jump on ftw. Take it or leave it.

 

[Sever]

...
Sever, if it works for you, but most people aren't confortable changing their button scheme.
...

thats why i said *some* D; i mean im not trying to say something like "OMFGWTFBBQBYOS THESE FINGZ BE ALL ******** MAI WAY = BSET!!1111" but only trying to give a larger variety of things to try in order to help people find the most comfortable way for them
about the thumb thing... i dont think thats that easy... i mean i for myself got block instead of jump on Y and thus its useless anyways since i cant bend my thumb over X and b ;P but for some ppl it could be impossible due to the size of their thumb...

 

[Magus420]

When you up-B out of shield you are up-Bing out of the jump's startup and not the shield itself. I doubt they changed this from Melee. You should have at least 1 vulnerable frame no matter what.

Does pausing in shield and holding jump + Up-B then unpausing work? If it does, it may just be buffering the B input which then executes on the 1st jump frame. If you could cancel the shield directly into the Up-B you wouldn't need to jump before doing it anyway.

I record at 480p

What model do you have? I know how to get 240p 60fps by bob deinterlacing 480i, but I didn't think such capture devices existed for consumers yet with 480p inputs.

 

[ShortFuse]

When you up-B out of shield you are up-Bing out of the jump's startup and not the shield itself. I doubt they changed this from Melee. You should have at least 1 vulnerable frame no matter what.

Does pausing in shield and holding jump + Up-B then unpausing work? If it does, it may just be buffering the B input to execute on the 1st jump frame. If you could cancel the shield directly into the Up-B you wouldn't need to jump before doing it anyway.

What model do you have? I know how to get 240p 60fps by bob deinterlacing 480i, but I didn't think such capture devices existed for consumers yet with 480p inputs.

Hauppauge HD PVR. It's external. It records 480i, 480p, 720p (yes 60fps), and 1080i. It has component input (and passthrough). Connect Wii component to HD PVR and connected PVR to TV. The passthrough allows you to play and record at the same time and not notice. It also takes your regular S-Video and Composite (pfft). I can record 720p off my PS3 and 360 smoothly.
There's Linux and Vista x64 support as well.
Here are some 480p videos:
http://www.gamevee.com/user/ShortFuse/videos

Oh and btw. NJ FTW!

I was asking because the JCRUSH (Jump cancelled Reverse Up Smash Hit) is a slide input, meaning you need to pause at least one frame after jumping before pressing A. This one frame pause does not exist if you use tap jump. If I remember correctly, Jump Cancelled Grabs in Melee needed one if you try do X and then press Z to grab. If you try do press at the same time, you get a different effect.

But this is different. The game allows you to press X/Y and B at the same time, unlike a JCRUSH. I find it interesting. I'll have to try it when I get home. It would have to be a move that isn't a multihit but last a long time (like a Sex Kick). I believe Lucas' UpSmash qualifies so I'll try with that.

 

[Magus420]

If it's a sex kick your shield will 'eat' the hitbox and that same hitbox would be unable to hit you again.

If you just get a 60fps recording of doing the shield and pause->hold buttons->unpause method (assuming that does work) you'd see if you skip directly from shield to up-B or if the B buffers until you're in jump status where an up-B can then execute and does on that 1st frame. I could check myself but I don't have the game, lol.

 

[ShortFuse]

If it's a sex kick your shield will 'eat' the hitbox and that same hitbox would be unable to hit you again.

If you just get a 60fps recording of doing the shield and pause->hold buttons->unpause method (assuming that does work) you'd see if you skip directly from shield to up-B or if the B buffers until you're in jump status where an up-B then can execute. I could check myself but I don't have the game, lol.

No need, I record at 60fps. I can go replay the the recording and check frame by frame if there is a single frame jump animation between escaping shield and Up+B. If there isn't, it's 0 frames of invincibility, if there is, there's one frame. Capturing at 30fps (like most SDTV capture cards do) might skip that frame.

 

[Magus420]

When you capture 29.97 interlaced frames/sec, you are really capturing 59.94 fields/game images per sec. This is how you can get '60fps' game footage from composite/S-Video input. The only difference is you are left with half the vertical resolution.

 

[ShortFuse]

When you capture 29.97 interlaced frames/sec, you are really capturing 59.94 fields/game images per sec. This is how you can get '60fps' game footage from composite/S-Video input. The only difference is you are left with half the vertical resolution.

That's if you record at 640x480@60i
The HD PVR records at 1920x1080 @ 60i but 30i is something different, but I know what you mean.
Even with the comb filtering most capture cards do sometimes skip frames. I forgot how many and how often but with 60fps you can actually frame count. I was thinking about opening up a thread later of frame count on attacks and rolls, since I have the technology to do so.

 

[Magus420]

I assure you, I know exactly what I'm talking about. I'm kind of the go-to guy for this sort of thing on the boards, as very few people seem to know how to deinterlace the source video properly for this purpose. When you bob deinterlace 640x480@30i you do indeed get 640x240@60p with no lost in-game frames. You can accurately do frame data this way. It's how I did it for Luigi.

If you really don't believe me, here is a 60fps video I captured last year through composite. It's compressed quite a bit but you get the idea. All 60 game frames per second are there. It's how I do all of my recordings.

http://www.mediafire.com/?t8nguxrsxmi

 

[∫unk]

ShortFuse:

You obviously haven't read Marth boards in the past few months so I'll give you the recap.

1) I tested this.
2) I made a thread telling people you could do this, but it's hard.
3) I'm 99% sure I have more tech skill, and this is hard to do against a multi-hit attack for me.

Do you understand now? Just play a good GW and you'll understand. With the Y -> Up B the time your moving from Y to B has to be 1 frame. Against GW turtle with Y B it's hard to pull it off mid-turtle. With tap jump on it's ridiculously easy.

 

[VietGeek]

If the way Junk worded this was too complicated, this is my interpretation:

If you haven't yet bothered to use DS out of shield at all, and therefore haven't done it with Tap Jump off, it's more beneficial for you to learn with Tap Jump on as it's more reliable and doesn't require tech skill, merely hand coordination.

The last part is why VietGeek chooses to be an *** and ignore this.

 

[ZHMT]

Why is this Tap Jump "war" continuing? lol

Tap Jump off = vunerable.

Tap Jump on = invunerable.

Its not a matter of preference....

 

[VietGeek]

Why is this Tap Jump "war" continuing? lol

Tap Jump off = vunerable.

Tap Jump on = invunerable.

Its not a matter of preference....

Because the best way isn't exactly the "only" way. It should be the only viable way, yes, but being passed off as the only way is extremely misleading. And we don't want to be scummy, misleading liars do we?

Although Steel did it because if he said:

"But...if you have good tech skill, you can still do this tech out of shield without Tap Jump On..."

no one would take him seriously. So I understand why he did it.

Also, it was revived because Magus said something interesting. <_<

 

[ShortFuse]

ShortFuse:

You obviously haven't read Marth boards in the past few months so I'll give you the recap.

1) I tested this.
2) I made a thread telling people you could do this, but it's hard.
3) I'm 99% sure I have more tech skill, and this is hard to do against a multi-hit attack for me.

Do you understand now? Just play a good GW and you'll understand. With the Y -> Up B the time your moving from Y to B has to be 1 frame. Against GW turtle with Y B it's hard to pull it off mid-turtle. With tap jump on it's ridiculously easy.

No, it's not a slide input move like a Jump Cancelled Reversed Up Smash Hit. It's at the exact same time. And you prove you're not understand when you say "With the Y -> Up B the time your moving from Y to B has to be 1 frame." This just shows you're not reading what I wrote and just skimming through it. You don't have to slide from Y to B. Just press both at the same time. The reason why you find it hard to do against a multi-hit attack is because you're not doing it right, simple as that.

Because the best way isn't exactly the "only" way. It should be the only viable way, yes, but being passed off as the only way is extremely misleading. And we don't want to be scummy, misleading liars do we?

Although Steel did it because if he said:

"But...if you have good tech skill, you can still do this tech out of shield without Tap Jump On..."

no one would take him seriously. So I understand why he did it.

Also, it was revived because Magus said something interesting. <_<

Yeah, because Steel2nd is moving his thumb from X all the way to B and is trying to do in less than 16.667 ms. That's what he shows in the video and that's why it's misleading


JunkintheTrunk and Steel2nd don't understand that it's a simlutaneous input. Magus was repeating what I was saying (coincidence or supporting my claim, I'm not sure.) My thumb doesn't allow it to bend and press Y and B at the same time, so I use my index finger.

I don't know why everyone has to get so defensive about using Tap Jump.
Don't knock it before you try it.

Edit: I'm realzing Magus said you can have to slide input it in his original post, but from my testing, that's not true. You can press it simultaneously. Maybe that's where the confusion is coming from.

 

[Kodachrome]

Let's all cry moar.

What happened to the supposed frame counters? End the debate, already.

Personally, I find tap jump on to be superior regardless of upb out of shield. Any idiot can realize that they don't have to use just one method to jump during the course of a match. DI without jumping is nice, but I have never had that problem, so meh.

 

[∫unk]

lol okay so you hit Y and B at the same time with some weird controller hold or configuration.

You realize that doesn't help 99% of Marth boards.

 

[Pierce7d]

*Puts on his apron and lets his hair down while flickering his eyelashes*

Eh, it's not that serious guys. Let's not fight over this, please boys?

 

[ShortFuse]

lol okay so you hit Y and B at the same time with some weird controller hold or configuration.

You realize that doesn't help 99% of Marth boards.

WOW
You really don't read.

Since when is tap jump off considered "some weird controller hold or configuration"?

PRESS L trigger to hold up shield
Hold up on the analog stick
Instead of just pressing B to Dolphin Slash, press Y at the same time with your index finger

zOMG! HAXz!

I'm sorry to sound like a jerk, but you're not reading my posts and it's obviously you didn't even try it.

 

[∫unk]

WOW
You really don't read.

Since when is tap jump off considered "some weird controller hold or configuration"?

PRESS L trigger to hold up shield
Hold up on the analog stick
Instead of just pressing B to Dolphin Slash, press Y at the same time with your index finger

zOMG! HAXz!

I'm sorry to sound like a jerk, but you're not reading my posts and it's obviously you didn't even try it.

stop raging kid.

thats a weird controller hold. see i did read.

zOMG! HAXz!

 

[ShortFuse]

stop raging kid.

thats a weird controller hold. see i did read.

zOMG! HAXz!

Seriously though. I'm sorry to flip out on you guys, but I find it ridiculous that you, Steel2nd and Pierce7d said "this is too hard and you need superhuman finger speed to pull it off"

 

[∫unk]

not if you hold the controller like that, but lol trying playing like that against someone good please. i dunno if you keep your index on Y all the time but if you don't switching just for this situation is ridiculous and probably too slow.

anyways maybe it works for you, but like I said, not for 99% of marth boards so there's no point in promoting it.

and steel's original point still holds true. it is way way way way way way way waaaaaaaaaaaaaay easier for the average marth to just leave tap jump on rather than having to shift his index over for this situation or just keeping his index in an awkward position the whole time.

 

[Pierce7d]

Seriously though. I'm sorry to flip out on you guys, but I find it ridiculous that you, Steel2nd and Pierce7d said "this is too hard and you need superhuman finger speed to pull it off"

Actually, I said nothing of the sort. In fact I did it today fine. I simply said that you'd probably be less consistent with it.

 

[VietGeek]

and steel's original point still holds true. it is way way way way way way way waaaaaaaaaaaaaay easier for the average marth to just leave tap jump on rather than having to shift his index over for this situation or just keeping his index in an awkward position the whole time.

Why is a bear bestowed with superior describing abilities than the Dark Dragon? <_<

 

[ShortFuse]

not if you hold the controller like that, but lol trying playing like that against someone good please. i dunno if you keep your index on Y all the time but if you don't switching just for this situation is ridiculous and probably too slow.

anyways maybe it works for you, but like I said, not for 99% of marth boards so there's no point in promoting it.

and steel's original point still holds true. it is way way way way way way way waaaaaaaaaaaaaay easier for the average marth to just leave tap jump on rather than having to shift his index over for this situation or just keeping his index in an awkward position the whole time.

It's not that weird. I got used to it in less than a day. If you can move your thumb from X to CStick, you can move your index from Z to Y. It's not that slow. As Magus said, it's not uncommon to see people use Y for certain moves.
For me, it's ridiculously easy to do and I could barely multiple drillshine with Fox in Melee.
And it's not like JC'd Dolphin Slash is used all the time.

But whatever. I don't know why I bother. You've obviously biased against it or trying justify something else. You've concluded the controller hold is "too weird", moving fingers "too slow" and it's too hard compared to having tap jump on.
You just dismiss all the benefits to having tap jump off.

All that without even physically holding a controller and trying it.

Edit: Oh and sorry Pierce, you're right. It's that I didn't like the projection from people saying "oh it's too hard/slow/useless/demanding" and automatically assuming everyone else on Smashboards will agree.

 

[Pierce7d]

It's not that weird. I got used to it in less than a day. If you can move your thumb from X to CStick, you can move your index from Z to Y. It's not that slow
And it's not like JC'd Dolphin Slash is used all the time.

But whatever. I don't know why I bother. You've obviously biased against it. You've concluded the controller hold is "too weird", moving fingers "too slow" and it's too hard compared to having tap jump on.
You just dismiss all the benefits to having tap jump off.

All that without even physically holding a controller and trying it.

Eh, sorry, but I have to say, this move should be used VERY frequently. Anytime someone hits your shield with something that's not a projectile, or ******** range (I'm looking at you Snake, with your stupid ftilt)

 

[ShortFuse]

Eh, sorry, but I have to say, this move should be used VERY frequently. Anytime someone hits your shield with something that's not a projectile, or ******** range (I'm looking at you Snake, with your stupid ftilt)

Well, I"m just saying, it's not hard to do and if you can used to using C-Stick for aerials, it's the same distance. Of course it seems weird at first because it's rarely done for most players (pressing Y with index). Pressing X with index finger is very uncomfortable but seriously, just try it. It's not as hard as it sounds.

It's probably the same learning curve as learning to shuffle aerials with C-Stick.

 

[∫unk]

SUPER EDIT: Steel is right no point in arguing with someone who thinks having your finger on Y for the dolphin slash out of shield is easier than just leaving tap jump on for the general public, which is the main point.

 

[Steel]

Shortfuse:

Go for it dude. We just like to keep things simple and easy, you know?

We're 2 lax.

 

[Sever]

SUPER EDIT: Steel is right no point in arguing with someone who thinks having your finger on Y for the dolphin slash out of shield is easier than just leaving tap jump on for the general public, which is the main point.

dude... ur name fits u perfectly. this is not about *omgawd i fink there be so many noobs so tell them tap jump on = WIN* it may be one of the easiest ways.. but not the preferred way for everyone... IMO putting jump on L / R is superior to using the index finger / thumb over the whole controler but that is MY OPINION since im not used to that kind of holding a controler Oo ... there are chinese table tennis players who wield their bat similar to a pencil... thats weird but its functioning pretty good.. so the point im trying to get at is that .. instead of b1tching around and crying that our way is *TEH BSET W/O EXCEPTIONZZZZZZZZZZ!!!!!!111111* we should rather try to give a variety of possibility's with whom one is able to actually do the move -.- so far that would be:
- tap jump on
- bending the thumb so that one presses Y and B at nearly the same time

- using the index finger for jumping ( Y/X ) and the thumb for B
- assigning jump on either L / R depending on which one ur used for shielding...

so guys.. stop being some ignorant doushe and stay calm..

 

[Magus420]

You shouldn't need to bend your thumb in any weird way to have it over Y and B. What I'm talking about is really this simple, lol. Kind of press in from the side so if you press A it would be after the other buttons are pressed.

I actually use tap jump myself when I play Brawl, but my point is that you can do it without it just the same with little extra effort and nearly the same consistency. Obviously though if you don't have a major preference for it being off then leave it on as it's easier to do.

If I can Up-B from shield frame perfect the majority of the time in Melee this way without devoting any time to it (it's really not much harder than JCing grabs properly) , then I'm sure most people are capable of doing it in Brawl where supposedly you can even press the Jump and B on the same frame and still get it to work, and I also don't believe you can JC grab in Brawl either which means you don't have to worry about bumping A between pressing Y and B like in Melee (if you somehow press A before Y you'll obviously still shieldgrab).

 

[Noctournez]

edit: question was answered in a different post, nevermind.