Leech Seed and Stealth Rocks and Spikes, Oh My!: Stage Analyses (Updated)

[Toby.]

Details please?

It's because ivy gets gimped hardcore by one of the sides. It's hard to tether recover on a side without an edge. Poor Ivysaur.

@ Retro: True about jabbing, etc. However, I was hoping that if the launch was capable of doing that it would make bullet seeding way more reliable when the spikes come up. We wouldn't have to worry about people DI'ing out of the initial launch 'cos they would just get spiked away.

What do people do during the wind section? Advantages, disadvantages?

 

[Thinkaman]

Pictochat is a terrible stage for PT to counterpick.

-It has an extra high ceiling, ruining squirtle and charizard's ultra-reliable d-throws.
-It has a very long main stage, which is bad for all three characters.
*Squirtles needs to easily pressure opponents to an edge to forge a reaction out of them, since he can't approach well generally.
*Ivysaur might like not being gimped as much, but Pictochat is so long that it is harder to pressure with ivysuar.
*Charizard misses out on his greatest advantage, easily forcing enemies off the stage and attempting to punish their recovery.
*Although it makes jab locks for Squirtle more appealing, the chainthrows it gives other characters are far more deadly.
-The stage changes wreck Ivysaur's camping abilities and restrict Squirtle's movement.
-Other characters have much for to gain from the walls and hazards, as none of the pokemon have extremely good ways to capitalize on either.

The Pokemon don't really have any extremely good or bad stages due to being three different characters... but Pictochat is pretty awful.

For most matchups, I prefer FD. Platforms are almost always bad for Ivysaur unless your opponent is a moron, and Squirtle/Charizard can often punish better without them though u-smash, rock smash, and their fantastic grabs/throws. However, FD shares many of the problems that I mentioned about Pictochat being long and flat. Against characters with bad recovery in particular, I would drastically prefer to go to Battlefield. (Falco and Link come to mind as extreme examples; Battlefield can help against projectiles too.) Smashville and Yoshi's are just middle grounds... Yoshi's is probably worse, although Ivysaur sure doesn't mind the support ghost. Pokemon Stadium (either) is a bad compromise, you get the best of neither side.

Delfino is pretty mediocre for PT, nothing too bad. Lylat's platforms make it a less than desirable stage too. Jungle Japes, is a terrible stage due to its size. Corneria is probably the best CP if your opponent does have not reliable vertical kills. (Snake, DeDeDe, Fox would be terrible there...) Ivysuar and Charizard hate Rainbow Ride, mainly Ivysaur. Norfair isn't great for those guys either, although it does make Ivysuar's recovery much better. Yoshi's Island Pipes is like a worse version of Corneria for them.

Frigate and Skyworld are bad picks since ALL THREE need edges for good recovery. Skyworld is a terrible stage for them in general, but Frigate isn't that bad. The second part of frigate actually has those sliding platforms on the side that help Ivysaur out... Ivy can even dair to stall in the air to increase the chance of being able to land on one. From there getting back with a projectile and tether is simple, not to mention the fair and bair... Honestly, never ban Frigate and hope they waste their counterpick agianst you on it. Half the stage is bad against a third your character half the time... And the other half the time, the stage can save you... It's bad, but it's nowhere near as bad as people think.

Luigi's Mansion is a bad stage for the pokemon, although Ivysaur camps it well. It has a high ceiling, which is bad. Pirate Ship is another bad stage with another high ceiling... it's worse because the water helps your opponents out, the platforms do them no good, and only Charizard has a spike.

Castle Siege is a really interesting stage for them. I would almost consider the opening part to be PT's best level, since it's small but the shape gives Ivysaur some security if you get stuck as Ivysaur during it. (You shouldn't.) The second part is the bad part, and must be played defensively as Ivysaur; if you are Squirtle, try to get a throw in and/or hydroplane during the transition to create enough space to safely change. The third part is just great for all of them in general. I'm be tempted to CP Castle Siege as PT, and make sure I started the level as Squirtle.

It's kind of poetic, no? A changing character preferring a changing stage... Heh.

 

[Steeler]

that was a really good post.

counterpicking stages with pt is a little complicated because you should generally try and decide on which pokemon (or two) you'll use the most against an opponent's particular character, and then go from there.

 

[Mangme]

I think one of the worst stages for PT is Pirate Ship.

I wouldn't know if anyone would agree with me, but I have my reasons. If you ever land in the water against someone who can spike well (ex. Ness) while your using Ivysaur or Charizard, even sometimes Squirtle, they can kill you at very low %'s with their spike. (Last time I remembered, I died at 33% by being spiked in the water)

Also, I know this may not be an issue, but I think Ivysaur and Charizard can be stage spiked by the ship easily. From my personal experience. The bombs are annoying as well, since sometimes, you can't really avoid them, and it will deal some damage to you as well, sometimes it may even kill you if you just entered the water and a bomb is heading straight towards you, and your close to the wall of the stage.

Also, even though Charizard has a spike, it is very slow and by the you you can spike the opponent, you may have already fell in the water. Also, the added fact that Charizard will get killed automatically when entering water when you enter the water you lag a bit, and that gives time for the opponent to hit you/spike you.

I also quote what the person above has said.

Pirate Ship is another bad stage with another high ceiling... it's worse because the water helps your opponents out, the platforms do them no good, and only Charizard has a spike.

Remember that this is all personal opinion that I thought might help Pokemon Trainer mains.

 

[Adriel]

Weegee's Mansion is good for Squirtle 'cause he can up-throw on the bottom floor and start a jab lock.

 

[Retro Gaming]

Pictochat is a terrible stage for PT to counterpick.

-It has an extra high ceiling, ruining squirtle and charizard's ultra-reliable d-throws.
-It has a very long main stage, which is bad for all three characters.
*Squirtles needs to easily pressure opponents to an edge to forge a reaction out of them, since he can't approach well generally.
*Ivysaur might like not being gimped as much, but Pictochat is so long that it is harder to pressure with ivysuar.
*Charizard misses out on his greatest advantage, easily forcing enemies off the stage and attempting to punish their recovery.
*Although it makes jab locks for Squirtle more appealing, the chainthrows it gives other characters are far more deadly.
-The stage changes wreck Ivysaur's camping abilities and restrict Squirtle's movement.
-Other characters have much for to gain from the walls and hazards, as none of the pokemon have extremely good ways to capitalize on either.

• I rarely kill vertically with their throws. They're more often going to kill horizontally. The explosion always comes from that area, at least.
• How much longer is it than Final Destination? It's been a while since I've played Brawl but I never felt that it was much longer than Final Destination.
• Charizard's still got his throw's, which to be honest work just about everywhere.
• All of their throws are excellent. All Uthrows are going to put them into the fire/bullet hazards. They definately have something to gain from them. I mean, Dthow forces the spikes to hit, which is honestly worth the decay since they do such ridiculous amounts of damage.

 

[Charizard92]

why are we talking about Pictochat? Shouldn't we work on starter stages first? Officially, the full blown starters (uncontroversial) are Battlefield, FD, Yoshi's Island (Brawl), and Smashville. Borderline starters (those up to the TO to decide whether or not they are starters or Counters) are Delfino Plaza, Haliberd (oddly), Lylat cruise, Castle Siege, and Pokemon Stadium 1. Luigi's Mansion, Pirate Ship, Norfair, Frigate Orpheon, Pokemon Stadium 2, Distant Planet, Pictochat, Green hill zone, Yoshi's Island (melee), Jungle Japes, Corneria, Rainbow Cruise, & Brinstar are counters. Mario Circuit, Port Town, Skyworld, Onnet, and Green Greens are Borderline Banned (up to TO). All others are banned.

 

[Mangme]

Pictochat is a pretty good stage for PT, aside from some of the changes that happens, which sometimes damages you.

-I find that there is a lot more safe spots for a change. like if your inside the bricks, and the Opponent is outside, that's a great chance to change.

-The Flower/Bullet/Fire/Wheel Barrel can be used to PT's advantage. Your opponent may do so too, but, if you play smart, you'll be the one using the Stage's Hazards against them.

-The Stage transformations maybe disrupt Ivy's camping, but it can also stop others from camping as well, and make them approach you.

-In my opinion, it's much harder to gimp PT, since it's hard to see where he is, so you don't know where or when he'll be recovering.

-This may also lead to gimping other characters with hard recoveries. [ex. Ness] since it's hard to see where his PK Thunder will be going.

Here are some cons. [All thanks to Thinkaman]

-It has an extra high ceiling, ruining squirtle and charizard's ultra-reliable d-throws.
*Squirtles needs to easily pressure opponents to an edge to forge a reaction out of them, since he can't approach well generally.
*Ivysaur might like not being gimped as much, but Pictochat is so long that it is harder to pressure with ivysuar.
*Charizard misses out on his greatest advantage, easily forcing enemies off the stage and attempting to punish their recovery.
*Although it makes jab locks for Squirtle more appealing, the chainthrows it gives other characters are far more deadly.
-The stage changes wreck Ivysaur's camping abilities and restrict Squirtle's movement.
-Other characters have much for to gain from the walls and hazards, as none of the pokemon have extremely good ways to capitalize on either.

I took out some of the stuff I don't agree with.

 

[Retro Gaming]

I updated the first post; you're free to disagree or add something notable. When we have a sizeable collection of entries we can go about ordering them into an ordering by usefulness.

What stage now? I want to do Yoshi's Island (Pipes) for some reason.

 

[Hydde]

I dont know if u have discovered this also.... but on final destination....u know sometimes people like to go below the edges and then return with a wall jump or with their recoveries.....well i dont know why..but it seems thereis a gltich in that part of the stage:

If u stand nearthe edge... but not in the exact border...it seems u can smash people who is below the edge. Its very weird but it happened twice to me this weekened..... it happened with charizard and ivy Fsmashes. Both attacks hitted the enemy who was below the stage, almost below and a little in front of u.

 

[Retro Gaming]

That's interesting to note. I guess we're talking about Final Destination?

Well, someone needs to test that and see if they can do it consistently. Otherwise, I don't have much to note about Final Destination.

 

[Steeler]

yeah final destination is kinda meh. i think it's a good stage for pokemon trainer, simply because it doesn't really hurt any of the pokemon and doesn't give any real advantages to the opponent...instead of hoping to benefit one pokemon and hurt another.

one of my friends told me onett is a ridiculous counterpick for ivysaur simply because vine whip through buildings+bullet seed = ****. dunno how effective it would be though

 

[Retro Gaming]

I actually like all the stages that you can Vine Whip through. This includes Delfino Plaza. There's a part where you stop on the ledge, and towards the left you can get off the ledge into wading water (There's umbrella's, too). This is a ridiculously awesome place to claim when you're playing as Ivysaur. Utilt, Vine Whip, Bullet Seed, you can basically not be approached safetly.

 

[Steeler]

unless you are playing dedede

:[

 

[Retro Gaming]

What can Dedede do?

I mean if they're coming from the above ledge, it obviously isn't a good place to be if you're both down in the wading water.

 

[brinboy789]

I don't see why either of them particularly like it. They die earlier, have less room to maneuver, and don't gain anything at all from it. PT doesn't care about the lack of space and has better gimp game here.

Meta doesn't care about the platform at all lol. And he loves being able to kill earlier. He dies anyway, so he doesn't care about dying himself.

I main MK and the platform is one of the reasons i actually like smashville. dsmash @ edge when platform is near the edge at 40+% = kill. for the most part

 

[Zephramrill]

Smashville, Corneria, and Pokemon Stadium 1 are my faves for them. I avoid Rainbow Lose, Lylat Lose, and Friggen Orpheon at all costs with PT.

 

[Steeler]

lol friggen orpheon

rainbow lose is a good point, that stage is facking horrid for both ivy and charizard. they don't like to move around all that much. squirtle on the other hand is like YAY PLAYGROUND until he gets tired and wants to force ivy and zard to come in for him. and ivy and zard are like HELL NAW we are too fat.

...anyway

corneria is nice

also, something i thought about and thought i'd comment on:

retro. you mentioned rarely killing vertically with squirt's/zard's dthrows. weeeeeeell that's because your opponent's don't know how to di it. they can di it vertically to the corners and make it a lot tougher to kill with on stages like pictochat with higher ceilings...just something i'd point out.

also keep this a secret because lulz we don't want people to know how to di squirtle's best kill move!

 

[Adriel]

I noticed that stages with low ceilings work very with Squirtle; his D-throw kills much sooner on stages like Halberd. Such stages also helps with KO'ing with Ivy's Up-throw, and Zard's Up-smash.

 

[Collective of Bears]

Japes is fail for PT. None of them could recover from falling in that water, except possibly Charizrd.

Also, what is sam hill is the deal with Pictochat being a CP? IMO, it should've been one of the first to be banned.

 

[Onxy]

*Points at Blitz*

What got you so interested in PT? I've never seen you here before; unless you were, and I'm blind.

 

[Retro Gaming]

retro. you mentioned rarely killing vertically with squirt's/zard's dthrows. weeeeeeell that's because your opponent's don't know how to di it. they can di it vertically to the corners and make it a lot tougher to kill with on stages like pictochat with higher ceilings...just something i'd point out.

also keep this a secret because lulz we don't want people to know how to di squirtle's best kill move!

It usually kills in that diagonal area you describe, but I'm basing this mostly off of neutrals stages, not the counter picks. I see it kill vertically a lot on stages with lower ceilings.

My general opinion with sparce explanation (Order is irrelevant):


Good
Pictochat
Yoshi's Island (Pipes)
Halberd
Norfair
Pokemon Stadium 1
Castle Siege
Mario Circuit

Neutral
Yoshi's Island (Brawl) [Best Starter Stage for Pokemon Trainer, IMO]
Lylat Cruise
Smashville
Final Destination
Brinstar
Delfino Plaza
Pokemon Stadium 2
Onett
Green Hill Zone
Luigi's Mansion

Bad
Frigate Orpheon
Skyworld
Rainbow Cruise
Pirate Ship
Jungle Japes

Unsure
Distant Planet (I keep going back and forth between this one)
Corneria (Rarely play here, for some reason)
Port Town Aero Dive
Green Greens

 

[Collective of Bears]

*Points at Blitz*

What got you so interested in PT? I've never seen you here before; unless you were, and I'm blind.

I've always fiddled around with him a bit, but I never really got into using him until recently.

 

[Steeler]

corneria has a hella low ceiling, i would think it'd be decent for pt, at least. just don't get infinited on the fin...

i agree on all your bad ones retro. it may just be ME that hates those stages, and not pt lol

 

[Retro Gaming]

I've been picking Corneria exclusively in Friendlies and I realized its really awesome. Let's do Corneria right now.

Besides from the low ceiling, it features something else that's nice. Over by the tail exhaust of the ship are ridiculously easy gimps with the Pokemon's throws. Ivysaur's Bthrow I really like there. You need to rememebr that its kind of a high risk area, since you can be infinited by some characters.

 

[Miles.]

I've been picking Corneria exclusively in Friendlies and I realized its really awesome. Let's do Corneria right now.

Besides from the low ceiling, it features something else that's nice. Over by the tail exhaust of the ship are ridiculously easy gimps with the Pokemon's throws. Ivysaur's Bthrow I really like there. You need to rememebr that its kind of a high risk area, since you can be infinited by some characters.

Good point about throws.

The sides are really close.

PT can punish over by the fin just as good as anyone else can too.

 

[Charizard92]

It usually kills in that diagonal area you describe, but I'm basing this mostly off of neutrals stages, not the counter picks. I see it kill vertically a lot on stages with lower ceilings.

My general opinion with sparce explanation (Order is irrelevant):


Good
Pictochat
Yoshi's Island (Pipes)
Halberd
Norfair
Pokemon Stadium 1
Castle Siege
Mario Circuit

Neutral
Yoshi's Island (Brawl) [Best Starter Stage for Pokemon Trainer, IMO]
Lylat Cruise
Smashville
Final Destination
Brinstar
Delfino Plaza
Pokemon Stadium 2
Onett
Green Hill Zone
Luigi's Mansion

Bad
Frigate Orpheon
Skyworld
Rainbow Cruise
Pirate Ship
Jungle Japes

Unsure
Distant Planet (I keep going back and forth between this one)
Corneria (Rarely play here, for some reason)
Port Town Aero Dive
Green Greens

My comment on the good stages:
Pictochat: Great, I tried to ban this stage and it turns out to be of great help. (whacks head against wall)
Yoshi's Island (Melee): too bad this is banned (I think)
Haliberd: When I was talking about this stage in the legality discussion, I thought this wasn't going to be a starter on any account. I like the music. Good thing it's a borderline starter.
Norfair: WHAT THE ****! I tried to ban this stage (failed), and it HELPS US! IS GOD TRYING TO TOY WITH ME HERE?!
PS1: WHOH-HOH! When I started talking about PS1, I was going for Starter. I gave up after the immense opposition, but the Back Room voted partially in my favor (Borderline starter). MY FAVORITE STAGE IS PT'S FAVORITE TOO!
Castle siege: this is because it's the same principal as PS1 isn't it? It has the same legal ranking too.
Mario circuit: This is borderline ban, don't count on it much.

On mid stages:
Yoshi's Island Brawl: technically, it's the best pure starter for PT, not the best.
Lylat: Hmm, interesting, and I thought this was going to be neutral until the BRoom voted on these things
Smashville: Well duh
Final Destination: WELL DUH!
Brinstar: can someone explain this?
Delfino Plaza: this too, considering similarities to Castle Siege
PS2: No comment
Onett: See Mario Circuit
Green hill zone: no comment
Luigi's mansion: the pillars are a factor aren't they?

Stages Bad for PT:
Frigate Orpheon: ******! and I like the music too.
Skyworld: you don't have to worry much here, it is borderline ban too.
Rainbow Cruise: FINALLY! somebody hates this stage as much as I do.
Pirate Ship: ?
Jungle Japes: ???

They have no Idea:
Distant planet: I have no Idea either
Corneria: I just don't like it
Port Town: Look, most of the stage can kill you if you are standing still, I hate this stage a lot
Green greens: no idea either

 

[Retro Gaming]

That's just my opinion, there. There's really no formal thought or final verdict-type thing on there at all.

Srsly, those are just my general feelings. Its not like that's the official list to use now.

I only listed stages that are borderline ban or higher.

 

[Charizard92]

OK, I am not entirely Sure on Yoshi's Island (melee) but everything else is fine (although I do have a rather bad history with some stages)

 

[Retro Gaming]

The ceiling is ridiculously low, Withdraw becomes a viable attack, Ivysaur can break the yellow blocks that float above both sides of the stage with Utilt and Vine Whip (But not Bullet Seed ), easy spot for gimping on the left, Ivysaur plays well on the pipe (All over it), angles give you free Vine Whips basically, and Squirtle slides ridiculous distances if you Fair/Bair into one of the slopes. Oh, and Ivysaur can't really be gimped unless you are really bad at positioning.

That's my stance, at least.

 

[Toby.]

*resurrects thread*

Corneria

So here is a collection of random things. I'd like to get corneria out of the way so we can move on sometime soon.

This is a stage that both helps and hinders Pokemon Trainer's play. The low ceiling and close horizontal blast zones allow for some ridiculously early kills via our reliable throws, 'zard's tilts and squirtle's fair.. On the other hand the cramped area to the right places ivysaur and charizard's spacing game under threat, with the trade off being easy bthrow kills of ivysaur and an almost instant death fair for charizard.

The fin is useful in a number of ways: Squirtle can slide up the base, whilst ivysaur can easily land an auto sweet spotted vinewhip on most of the second section, with the exception of the very top. Charizard's flamethrower is also safer than usual when performed facing down the fin, as it increases the distance that the opponent must cover before they can swat you out of it. The 'cave' under the fin lets squirtle lock opponents for 50-60%, and is a prime spot to take advantage of our good throws for some pseudo spike goodness.

As we have recently seen, Ivysaur has a number of options at the tail of Corneria. The tether allows us to snap onto the fin after a full jump at the tail. The full jump can be substituted with one of any size once ivysaur moves a body length or two from the edge. This allows us to quickly reposition ivysaur so that the opponent is between us and the horizontal blast zone, which is often desirable. If we choose not to snap to the edge after the full jump at the tail, ivysaur will swing down and land without lag several body lengths from the edge of the stage. This allows us to quickly cancel a recovery into a smash, tilt, bullet seed etc.

On the flip side, the cave allows a number of characters to infinite us. The close blastzones can also place the pokemon in as much danger as their opponent, and can often lead to the pokemon dying at relatively low percentages.

Given that corneria has two distinctly different sections it makes sense that different %'s, pokemon and opponents will inform our decision of where to conduct the battle. Squirtle uses the top for early hydroplane/uthrow kills and the bottom right for quick gimps + corner locking. Beginning with the lock and then moving to the top where he is more maneuverable appears to be an effective way of maximising squirtle's potential whilst keeping him alive for as long as possible.

On the other hand squirtle is at his best in extreme close range, so camping in that area can be highly effective as well. So many options!

Clearly enemies with high vertical killing power should be dealt with in the bottom section, whilst horizontal killers should be tackled up top.

tl;dr - Corneria is both dangerous and awesome for pokemon trainer. Lucky us

 

[DUB]

I'm going to try out Brinstar this afternoon. I know the death barriers are close on the sides. Not sure about the ceilings. I'd expect a lot of throw kills.

 

[Demenise]

I'm going to try out Brinstar this afternoon. I know the death barriers are close on the sides. Not sure about the ceilings. I'd expect a lot of throw kills.

I know there's quite a distance downwards, but I'm not sure about the ceiling either.. Ivysaur does very well on Brinstar, in my opinion. The fact that Ivy's moves have some range above her make her able to ascend the platforms well. This is also one of the only stages where recovery isn't a problem, for there are many places to tether onto. I don't really see how she can stay on the ground for long, though, meaning she'll have to resort to aerials.

But what do I know, I don't play there often.

 

[DUB]

So, I played Brinstar a few times against a DK, TL, and a G&W. Atm, I'd say it could fall in the neutral or lower good.

Zards fair is dangerous here, and his throws are good enough to them off the edge. He's heavy enough to not be killed on the this stage absurdly early like the other. You can also do Up+B's from underneath the bottom of the stage for a surprise KO tactic.

Ivysaur has pretty good killing setups as well. Like zard, recovering opponents are open to the u-air and bairs. Failed recoveries with Ivy here are less brutal, there is always a chance that the lava will save you.

Squirtle was the hardest to use on the stage. The slopes of the floor keep some of his tilt's from connecting. Double Fair kills aren't too uncommon though.

 

[Toby.]

Brinstar is great for ivysaur because she can control the two platforms with vinewhip. People obviously aren't going to want to be on the top platform either. I'm not sure why you say she has plenty of places to latch on to infernovia. IIRC the only platform you can grab onto is the base, so the level is no easier to harder than any other.

 

[DUB]

Brinstar is great for ivysaur because she can control the two platforms with vine whip. People obviously aren't going to want to be on the top platform either. I'm not sure why you say she has plenty of places to latch on to infernovia. IIRC the only platform you can grab onto is the base, so the level is no easier to harder than any other.

You misread it. You can only latch too the sides of the floor platform, which I'm sure you know. I'm saying if your being edge hogged and you screw up the recovery, it's possible that if you luck up the lava will be there to pop u back up. Not really useful, but could save you a stock.

 

[Toby.]

No I was talking to infernovia about that. He said that "there are many places to tether onto". I assume he was thinking about norfair. I agree with you entirely.

 

[DUB]

No I was talking to infernovia about that. He said that "there are many places to tether onto". I assume he was thinking about norfair. I agree with you entirely.

Ah. My bad.

Has anyone discussed Skyworld any? I've got some recent experience there as well.

 

[Demenise]

I know there's quite a distance downwards, but I'm not sure about the ceiling either.. Ivysaur does very well on Brinstar, in my opinion. The fact that Ivy's moves have some range above her make her able to ascend the platforms well. This is also one of the only stages where recovery isn't a problem, for there are many places to tether onto. I don't really see how she can stay on the ground for long, though, meaning she'll have to resort to aerials.

But what do I know, I don't play there often.

GAH. Nevermind, I was talking about Norfair.

-facepalms self-

 

[Steeler]

corneria is too good. let's put it up as one of his best cps.