[Left 4 Scum] Game Over: Scum Win

[Ronike]

Way to play for scum macman. You are a confirmed clear, which means we can trust what you
say, which means you should be talking. Who cares if you've technically lost, if you leave the game having given us info that leads to the lynch of evenone mafia member, won't you feel better than if you leave having done nothing at all?

Still waitin on responses from a lot of people.

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

BTW guys, coming out with our decisions on who to uncap right away at the start of the day is a terrible move for the reason Mac just stated and that Cello touched upon earlier. The win condition in this game is MUCH different than most mafia games. Survival is important here, and if someone knows they are going to die, then they have no reason to continue helping.

We should be uncapping people based on what they bring to the table during the day. The incaps should have to EARN their survival. If we use that sort of a system, then all of this meaningless debate over who is more useful is pointless. You won't be debating theoreticals because all of the incaps will SHOW US how useful they are, if they want to survive that is. I'm certainly with holding my uncap vote until the day has developed more significantly and we start coming to a consensus on who to lynch. I recommend everyone else do the same. This way, we keep everyone interested and the incaps will earn their survival, whoever gets it.

As for where we should start today, I'm gonna be looking at people who quickly chose Vyse after I put out my top choices for a lynch. Picking him did seem sort of out of the blue and the V/LA status is definitely something I could see scum preying on.

 

[Handorin]

theres not really any reason to contribute anymore because of this whack survivor win condition. So no matter what happens Hando and I have already lost the game =/

Also, I think Ronike is trying to hard to look townie.

 

[McFox]

So do I.

Also definitely agree with frozen's uncap method. It's hard to see how Marsh has more potential use than anyone else who's been incapped, considering that even though he's being played by two separate people, he's still given us very little to go on. I'd be willing to bet a significant amount of money that at LEAST one mafia (probably more) were quick to jump to Marsh's defense, because he's Marshy! I'm on my iPhone now, but I'm going to be looking at people who were quick to uncap him.

 

[Ronike]

McFox, stop tunneling and actually use the new information we've been given. 3 or 4 scum, 3 incapped, and only two of the incapped meet the optimal incap qualifications. Someone somewhere made a mistake.

As for the uncap quickly vs. after a while, yeah, I guess you guys are right, but I assumed that these people wouldn't just flat out give up and would continue to help out as much as they could, as that's what I would do. But still, I've made it pretty clear I don't intend to uncap anyone besides Marshy at this point, so no point in taking back my uncap vote.

 

[McFox]

So I guess my question is, did you incap Marshy so you could come to his defense today?

Also, what exactly are the optimal incap qualifications?

 

[Kataefi]

Christmas shopping is my notsolegit john for being really inactive guys, I do apologise.

Okay:

uncap: marshking

I'm sad to see Macman get incapped - don't know much about Handorin sadly. I find mac is often curious and instinctive, which is always good. But my uncap vote goes to you marshy because I feel you can make some really nice calculated observations when prompted to do so. It's interesting because when I first starting playing with you I thought you were just a bunch of one liners.

_

I don't know what to make of this Day. The people who were incapped are not what I had expected.

I think Ronike/Mcfox are clouding this game with their ongoing ping-pong argument here. It took up a majority of D1, and it looks good to go on this day here as well. @Ronike and Mcfox, what have you both learnt about each other? What do you seriously think of each other's alignments? Is there any doubt in your mind that this could be a town vs town debate going on between the 2 of you?

You don't have to answer everything but I'd appreciate if you answered the last question in some detail, for my own reasons really!

_

@Kevin: I went for you in D1. At first I thought am I being unreasonable?, am I reaching for things? I re-read D1 to think if I was alone in my suspicions of you - seems I wasn't.Gheb, Ronike, Macman, myself and marshking also questioned some of your play - 2/3 of the incaps were against your reasoning. My question to you:

- looking back at all those questions asked - what exactly have you learnt?
- were you pleased with the discussion that took place from those questions?

Now would be a good time to justify your actions and bring to the table any possible tells you've cleverly discovered from such questions. It doesn't matter to me if you found anything very telling or not... I'm just interested to hear your thoughts!

_

I'm feeling very uncomfortable with Mayling. More to come on this later but I want to hear some thoughts from Mayling about the Night events. I understand you're busy =( but even if it's just a small post, that's fine with me!

_

@Ronike - I have played as mafia before, but only once. I'm not going to bother linking - I've played in Grammy's Mafia as a goon. If you're as desperate to read up on stuff as you are here then I'm sure you have the energy to go look for my play yourself!

 

[Ronike]

Kataefi: I think it could be town v town, but I'm not entirely sure that it is. I do think there are better avenues of discussion, and thus why I'm not actually arguing with McFox, just telling him to stop tunneling.

Could you jus quick tell me who you're scum partners were?

 

[Ronike]

McFox: why would I have to come to his defense today? He's a clear townie, by far one of the most dangerous things marshy can be

As for qualifications, I direct you to macman: someone who has not been keeping up with the game and who upon being in a situation where they are clear, but won't actually contribute because they are going to die and thus lose. Marshy doesn't fit any of these

@marshy: who in this game have you not played a mafia game with? Even better, who on that list has played with KK?

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

I really want to hear what Ronike claims he can figure out if you all provide him with the names of games you've played in as scum.

It's not that hard guys. Just remember what you played in as scum and type the name of the game out. Ronike can easily find it in the DG archive if you at least provide that much info. Don't be lazy ****s.

 

[McFox]

There's a tiny quibble of doubt that Ronike could be town to me. But it isn't much. His argument against me on D1 absolutely reeked of scumtells.

Also think it's fairly obvious why the people who got incapped were chosen. Not sure if they were able to coordinate it somehow, but looknig at that list, it's pretty clear that Marsh would get uncapped, seeing as how he's the unstoppable prodigy who has yet to contribute anything except "nonrandom" votes to this game. Meanwhile, anyone else who was chosen, in this example Mac and Hando, have no incentive to help us at all, because everyone was so quick to uncap Marshy. Therefor, assuming scum was able to coordinate this, they'd know that Marsh will be around for another day, while the other two will die at the end of this day.

I think it was more just random rather than they were able to coordinate this. I could be wrong, but the fact that Marshy was on the list meant that anyone else who was getting incapped last night was dead today.

I don't necessarily disagree with uncapping Marshy, although if Mac or Hando had been able to help us more than Marshy, then I'd certainly be more willing to uncap one of them instead. Marsh is like Socrates, even if he knows something, he makes the rest of town jump through hoops in order to figure it out, instead of just telling us. The best he was able to give us yesterday was that his votes were not random.

Awesome.

Why were they not random? Yes, we know that means you suspect these people. But WHY do you suspect them. If you don't tell us, then it doesn't make your picks any better than a random list of players.

 

[Ronike]

Scratch the prior question Katae, I forgot Grammy's got moved

 

[KevinM]

Christmas shopping is my notsolegit john for being really inactive guys, I do apologise.

Okay:

uncap: marshking

I'm sad to see Macman get incapped - don't know much about Handorin sadly. I find mac is often curious and instinctive, which is always good. But my uncap vote goes to you marshy because I feel you can make some really nice calculated observations when prompted to do so. It's interesting because when I first starting playing with you I thought you were just a bunch of one liners.

_

I don't know what to make of this Day. The people who were incapped are not what I had expected.

I think Ronike/Mcfox are clouding this game with their ongoing ping-pong argument here. It took up a majority of D1, and it looks good to go on this day here as well. @Ronike and Mcfox, what have you both learnt about each other? What do you seriously think of each other's alignments? Is there any doubt in your mind that this could be a town vs town debate going on between the 2 of you?

You don't have to answer everything but I'd appreciate if you answered the last question in some detail, for my own reasons really!

_

@Kevin: I went for you in D1. At first I thought am I being unreasonable?, am I reaching for things? I re-read D1 to think if I was alone in my suspicions of you - seems I wasn't.Gheb, Ronike, Macman, myself and marshking also questioned some of your play - 2/3 of the incaps were against your reasoning. My question to you:

- looking back at all those questions asked - what exactly have you learnt?
- were you pleased with the discussion that took place from those questions?

Now would be a good time to justify your actions and bring to the table any possible tells you've cleverly discovered from such questions. It doesn't matter to me if you found anything very telling or not... I'm just interested to hear your thoughts!

_

I'm feeling very uncomfortable with Mayling. More to come on this later but I want to hear some thoughts from Mayling about the Night events. I understand you're busy =( but even if it's just a small post, that's fine with me!

_

@Ronike - I have played as mafia before, but only once. I'm not going to bother linking - I've played in Grammy's Mafia as a goon. If you're as desperate to read up on stuff as you are here then I'm sure you have the energy to go look for my play yourself!

Still trying to digest what I learned from the questions.

I can however say I don't like your reasoning for why you're asking such a question.

2/3 incaps were against you, and multiple people were suspicious of me D1.

What are you trying to accomplish with that, it appears you are trying to sow seeds of distrust towards me while cleverly not taking a REAL stance on the issue.

That whole section of @ Kevin is wishy washy push on me stuff.

 

[The Marsh King]

@ scumfevah: votecount/uncap votecount please

hurry up and un-uncap me in your next post thats an order as a cleared townie. i've barely done anything this game and hando and macman don't even have any incentive to contribute at this rate. we'll learn more if you dont just uncap someone off meta

 

[DtJ Jungle]

Uncap Count:
[0] Macman ()
[0] Handorin
[10] The Marsh King (Circus, Ronike, Gheb_01, Xiivi, Handorin, Pythag, KevinM, Mentosman8, Chaco, Kataefi)

[7] Not Uncapping (Mayling, The Marsh King, frozenflame751 Cello_Marl, Mediocre, McFox, Macman)

Vote Count:
[12] Not Voting (Mayling, Macman, mentosman8, Ronike, The Marsh King, Xiivi, Pythag, Kataefi, frozenflame751, KevinM, Cello_Marl, Mediocre)
[2] Ronike (McFox, Chaco)
[2] Xiivi (Handorin, Circus)
[1] mentosman8 (Gheb_01)
[0] Mediocre ()
[0] Circus ()
[0] frozenflame751 ()
[0] KevinM ()
[0] Kataefi ()
[0] Cello_Marl ()
[0] Gheb_01 ()
[0] McFox ()
[0] Handorin ()
[0] Macman ()
[0] Pythag ()
[0] Mayling ()
[0] Chaco ()

 

[Ronike]

Un-uncap: Marsh King

Marsh, what are your thoughts then? You've given us nothing besides that we should ununcap you

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Un-uncap: Marsh King

Unvote Vote Ronike

So far you have done nothing useful despite actively posting a lot. Up to now you'd only introduce discussion that leads absolutely nowhere like those "have you been scum before" questions or trying to make us speculate who got incapped twice. That's pseudo-scumhunting any way you look at it and is bound to be utterly fruitless. There are plenty of more interesting and useful things to discuss such as Vyse wagon being scummy etc. No mention of that I see. Instead you'd rather try to degenerate these issues before they're even talked about.

 

[Ronike]

Actually, I haven't said anything about my questions because I'm still trying to get Mayling and Chaco to answer before I say anything about it.

Honestly though, I don't think the Vyse wagon was that scummy. We wanted to avoid a no lynch, and we were close to the deadline, so of course people were checking, saw that Vyse was the lynch target, and jumped on. It's not like we had time to debate it.

Oh, and when did I try to make people speculate about who got incapped twice? Way to throw suspicion around, especially on the "easy" target.

BTW, you can't throw etc. on the end of sentences if you don't have other examples, so what other examples do you have?

Now that I think about it, where have you been mafia with and with who gheb?

@Marshy, forgot to mention this, but could you please answer my question? You know, who have you played with and all?

 

[Kataefi]

Well thanks for the replies!
_

@Kev: Yeah I'm not sowing any seeds. I'm not aiming to get those players to distrust you right now about your questions, they already did in D1. The point shows the significant number of players on your case and asks for your findings so you can at the very least appease your doubters with any good information toDay...

not taking a REAL stance on the issue.

Okay it is understandable that you might want to keep a few things hidden for the sake of your own analysis on people and to reveal things in later Days (if that is the real issue), but then... I don't know this - would be wise to let me know this. I guess you shouldn't throw 'wishy washy' @ other people when you're being just as 'wishy washy' back.

Still trying to digest what I learned from the questions.

Once you have you can share all your digestions with the town.

Basically I'm not as suspicious of you now than I was yesterDay. But saying that, the whole issue I have with you Kev will solve once you've pulled something pro-town out of that large mix of selective questioning addressed to town and scum. You haven't done this yet, I believe you will.
_

I think it was more just random rather than they were able to coordinate this. I could be wrong, but the fact that Marshy was on the list meant that anyone else who was getting incapped last night was dead today.

Well fox this is what's interesting to me... optimal strategies I believe include incapping big, well-known, successful players so it gives town a very difficult decision in who to uncap. This effectively eliminates big threats to scum in larger numbers. That or pair up lesser known players with a big named ones so it virtually guarantees their death, possibly similar to what's happened this passed Night.

The latter I think indicates that it's possible a more successful player is in with the scum. The fact that the N1 strategy has currently been revealed as the latter makes me a little suspicious from purely a metagame point of view that perhaps some of the more successful players (or at the very least 1 of them) might be involved. It will only get tougher for them as Nights go by and they aren't incapped.

This is also why I absolutely agree with Ronike taking a metagame approach to this game (from his last few posts anyways) considering everyone is on equal terms.

This isn't specifically directed @you fox, I just wanted to share my thoughts on the N1 incaps and found your post interesting to read.
_

@Scumfever - any chance you can let me know when Mayling will be back from V/LA?
_

@Chaco... what do you make of the incaps? Any ideas as to why you think they were chosen by the infected? I'd like to hear your thoughts!

 

[Circus]

Un-uncap: The Marsh King. Just because he asked.

I stand by my stance that keeping a cleared Marshy alive is the smart choice regardless of how much he's contributed so far. Based on what I've seen of all three incap'd players, I consider Marshy to objectively be the best scumhunter. Not that Macman and Handorin aren't both excellent players. Macman's (usually) super helpful and active when he cares about the game and Hando...well, really, I don't think I've seen Hando as town before. But he's a great player.

The point is, even though all three of the incap'd players will probably be dead by D3, I still feel like I want Marsh King to have the best chance of staying with us. And honestly, the way that Macman has reacted to the situation does nothing to make me want to switch to him. I understand that everyone's win condition states that they have to live to win, but if you don't play that way, everyone will be better off. Macman's still essentially a townie, and he's not acting that way. Frankly, I'm shocked that he has thrown in the towel already. I was comfortable immediately uncapping Marsh because I was certain Macman and Hando would continue to contribute anyway. It did not once cross my mind that either of them would need any kind of incentive to continue to help their side.

I've had, like, NO time to get on here lately and there's a lot more I want to say, but it will have to wait until later.

 

[McFox]

I'd just rather uncap people in this game given their actual contributions, vs. their potential ones.

 

[Chaco]

@Chaco... what do you make of the incaps? Any ideas as to why you think they were chosen by the infected? I'd like to hear your thoughts!

Yeah, Mac and Marshy are two obvious choices. Trying to rid two strong players, and Hando, well to be honest I'm not sure. So I'm going to say scum has a sense of humor.

 

[Ronike]

Really chaco, you even readin?

As for qualifications, I direct you to macman: someone who has not been keeping up with the game and who upon being in a situation where they are clear, but won't actually contribute because they are going to die and thus lose. Marshy doesn't fit any of these

And I'm still waiting for you to link me. If you don't, I'm going to assume you've never been mafia AND that you lied about it. After all, this is easy enough to answer.

 

[Chaco]

Really chaco, you even readin?

And I'm still waiting for you to link me. If you don't, I'm going to assume you've never been mafia AND that you lied about it. After all, this is easy enough to answer.

Yes, I am.

And no, I will not link you. And since I'm not, I'm going to assume you are dumb for assuming I've never been scum since I've beat you as scum.

After all, you know it.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

Don't get what Ronike and Circus are saying. Theres absolutely no reason to continue to contribute if the game is lost already. There's no reason not to play like a survivor. I am not essentially a townie. We're not on a side, we are just banding together to get rid of a common threat, theres no reason to help you guys if I'm gonna die anyway. Don't quite understand why you would be shocked that I've thrown in the towel since town already decided to incap Marshking. I'm playing the way I should be playing, and the way Tom designed the game.

vote:ronike

 

[Tom]

When the day ends, the player with the most votes to be uncapped will be revived, and all other incapped players will bleed to death.

straight from the rules, just to make sure everything is clear

 

[Ronike]

Vote Chaco for being needlessly unhelpful.

And way to be a sore loser Mac.

 

[Ronike]

Chaco, you've only been mafia a few games from the games I checked, and do recall that although you won in FFVII, me and Marshy did a large portion of the work for you. Don't go thinking you're some almighty scum player just yet pal.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

And way to be a sore loser Mac.

I'm a sore loser because I won't help some players win over other players. Right.

 

[Chaco]

Chaco, you've only been mafia a few games from the games I checked, and do recall that although you won in FFVII, me and Marshy did a large portion of the work for you. Don't go thinking you're some almighty scum player just yet pal.

Did I ever even imply I was? There is no basis for your ****ty meta case. Just play the game.

 

[Ronike]

Chaco, I haven't even made my case yet. What's wrong, nervous?

 

[Chaco]

Don't make me laugh.

 

[Ronike]

Coulda fooled me, between the uncooperative behavior, the overexageration of your "skills" as mafia (you've been mafia in 3 games I've read, hardly close to 6, and post 544 just screams smugness to me), and denouncing my case before I've even made it. Seems to me frozen taught you well in FFVII: denounce any arguments possible based on weak judgement simply because they are from a suspect player. Just one problem though: even though you say my case is crap several times, I haven't actually made a case yet. Kinda jumpy methinks...

 

[Handorin]

Im kinda with macman. I think I'm keeping my vote on xiivi though.

 

[McFox]

Well Ronike, from your own mouth you've checked "a few" games where Chaco has been scum, and the other two people you asked told you what games they were scum in, and now you're chastising Chaco before you even make your "case". Personally, I would love to hear what this "case" of yours actually is, since right now we only know what it's not: everything that you've said so far.

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

Ronike, Chaco has been scum in FFVII and Newbie 1 to my knowledge.

Who else are you waiting on? I really want to hear what you have to say. Tell me whose games you need linked and I'll do it for then FFS. This game is stagnating and I want to hear the case you're building A.S.A.P.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Honestly though, I don't think the Vyse wagon was that scummy. We wanted to avoid a no lynch, and we were close to the deadline, so of course people were checking, saw that Vyse was the lynch target, and jumped on. It's not like we had time to debate it.

OK. Does the fact that somebody hopped the wagon compound to suspicions you already had on that player or is it null?

Oh, and when did I try to make people speculate about who got incapped twice? Way to throw suspicion around, especially on the "easy" target.

It's not like I haven't voiced suspicions against you D1 already. If I wanted an easy target I'd just hop Mediocre for not playing. That's an easy target (or other rather inactive players). I don't see an experienced player, who actively posts a lot as an overly easy target.

BTW, you can't throw etc. on the end of sentences if you don't have other examples, so what other examples do you have?

Circus "breadcrumbing" and mentos "coaching" him to not do so has been an issue most of D1 (to me at least) and put mentos up high on my scumlist. Now Circus tried to give credit to mentos for not voting the confirmed survivor. What do you think about that connection?

What do you think about Kevin's contributions? You Fosed him D1 for those question and like me you had him high up on your scumlist. What happened to that? Do you think the discussion Kevin introduced proved to be fruitful? Did it even had the potential to be fruitful?

Now that I think about it, where have you been mafia with and with who gheb?

Haven't been mafia yet. Only been indy once but it was the Simpsons pre-game aka Macmans epic troll.

 

[#HBC | marshy]

edited for being too venemous. however chaco needs to get over himself

 

[#HBC | marshy]

also medi you should seriously consider asking for a replacement

 

[KevinM]

**** that post by Marshy was venemous.