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Looking at Brawl Differently. Honestly, a Must Read.

Syde7

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I enjoyed this read, because it rung home with why I enjoy(ed?) Brawl for as long as I have/did. (Speaking in both tenses as I'm at an awkward transitional phase between enjoying it and wanting to continually improve and... well... not.)

I explained it to a lot of people who touted Melee as a vastly superior game (not wanting to incite that discussion, mentioning it only for illustrative purposes) that I saw Brawl as more of a chess match as opposed to melees checkers:

"Brawl requires continuous and simultaneous assessment and execution, as in chess. Melee requires periods of assessment and execution, as in checkers. In checkers, there is lots of thought put into each move, but once the correct/best move is chosen, it leads to a slew of other moves the opponent can do nothing about. (see: jumping several pieces in one turn). In chess, there is lots of thought put into each move, but even when the best move is chosen there is still no absolute guarantee that an inordinate amount of pieces can be taken.

Melee, like checkers involves a slew of offense and defense. Dynamic, with clear shifts in momentum. Brawl, like chess is more of a "give and take", with momentum being much harder to obtain and conversely break. In checkers, the idea of "trading" pieces is virtually non-existent (see: trading hits, which in Melee is long combo strings- essentially impossible due to the nature of the game being "mindgame->combo->combo->combo->kill/reset positions w/ opponent at near kill percent). In chess, "trading pieces" is a staple (see: trading hits, which in Brawl is more or less self explanatory).

There is a limited concept of "material advantage" in checkers; you either have more pieces than your opponent, or you do not. You are either in the midst of an offensive onslaught, or on the receiving end. The idea of "material advantage" exists in Brawl in as close to as its "board-game counterpart" chess."

I mentioned that, because I think that is a similar point of view to the OP. Essentially, saying the same thing but with a bit of whimsical illustration.

I will agree that seeing it this way makes it incredibly fun (as I said, that's why I enjoy/ed it as much as I do/did.) If the illustration could stop there- I would have been content. But, once you begin to add other things that are present into this view- things (for me) get less fun. I could go on a long rant (and tbh, I actually did but decided to delete it) about these things, but I won't unless someone just really wants to know (doubtful)

To surmise: I view it the same way, and when you view it that way, in a vacuum it is incredibly fun. However, once you begin to mix the various elements of Brawl with this... it becomes far less fun.

Either way, really good read. I enjoyed it. Thanks for posting! :)
 

황미영

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D'AAAAWWWW! For some odd reason I find this cute...

Good read indeed. I'm basically this way only with my friends. Since, when it comes to tourneys I'm nervous and I have people shouting and all this random stuff going on.
 

Sky`

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I don't see how this brings anything new to the table regarding Brawl or even fighting games in general. In all Competitive fighting games, you have to think. Mindgames is a major part of every single Competitive fighting game in existence because if there are no mindgames involved, it'll get tiresome very quickly and people will just stop playing.

This isn't some Brawl secret or even something that's especially important in Brawl (besides the fact that there really isn't a lot of technically advanced stuff in Brawl, so it's mindgame-centered). Frankly, anyone who doesn't get this is an idiot and it's so redundant it shouldn't require it's own thread.

And, just as an FYI, this is hardly the first time someone's thrown up a thread speaking of the importance of mindgames in Brawl.
<3 Yuna.

Thanks for the criticism. <3
 

Tidal

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I don't get whether you say one is supposed to think all this out while playing or when watching a replay. I can't think something in 0.1 seconds :ohwell:
 

Yumewomiteru

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I don't get whether you say one is supposed to think all this out while playing or when watching a replay. I can't think something in 0.1 seconds :ohwell:
Think about what happened after your positions reset, or when you get knocked away, grabbed, or lose a stock, thats your time to think about what you did and what they did to punish you, or vice versa.

For example, I was playing a Lucario with Falco yesterday, I noticed that after a quick attack like fair he likes to follow up with a full charged aurasphere. So right after he took off a stock and charged his aurasphere, i let myself get grabbed, and back throwed off the stage, and immediately i jumped and used reflector, reflected it the frame it came out, took his stock off, and end up winning the match.
Did I know for sure he was going to aurasphere? Or did I randomly guess hoping for one? No, what happened was that through thinking I noticed a pattern, and used what I saw to make an educated prediction.

So yeah, although you wont be able to think everything through right as it was happening, you will have breaks in the action to reflect on what just happened and base your decisions off of it.
 

#HBC | ZoZo

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That's just reading a (scrubs) pattern.

Sky is talking about limiting options, and always being aware of the opponents options, putting pressure and punishing their (hopefully badly thought through) reaction.
 

Yumewomiteru

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That's just reading a (scrubs) pattern.

Sky is talking about limiting options, and always being aware of the opponents options, putting pressure and punishing their (hopefully badly thought through) reaction.
Well you have to start off somewhere, i say reading a pattern is the first step.
 

phi1ny3

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Brawl to be more exact is more like the mid-end game of chess. The first bit is really technical and actually pretty linear, almost comboish for the first 5 moves or so. After that, it gets theoretical and messy.
Also, DMG would probably play French Defense if he were to take up chess, it's my favorite black response, but it's stupidly boring to most people to play lol.
 

phi1ny3

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Seriously though, in order to French, you pretty much need to win in material, and then after that it's stupid stalling stuff if you really want to lol.

But still, I like the OP's ideas around options and such, something I always try to centralize my game on besides zoning.
 

-Kiros-

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This was a very good analysis. I enjoyed reading it and learned some important things. Looking forward to more of your work.
 

rathy Aro

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I can sum this up nicely:

tl;dr
Think of Brawl like a chess game.
That's pretty much all the thread says. lol
I enjoyed this read, because it rung home with why I enjoy(ed?) Brawl for as long as I have/did. (Speaking in both tenses as I'm at an awkward transitional phase between enjoying it and wanting to continually improve and... well... not.)

I explained it to a lot of people who touted Melee as a vastly superior game (not wanting to incite that discussion, mentioning it only for illustrative purposes) that I saw Brawl as more of a chess match as opposed to melees checkers:

"Brawl requires continuous and simultaneous assessment and execution, as in chess. Melee requires periods of assessment and execution, as in checkers. In checkers, there is lots of thought put into each move, but once the correct/best move is chosen, it leads to a slew of other moves the opponent can do nothing about. (see: jumping several pieces in one turn). In chess, there is lots of thought put into each move, but even when the best move is chosen there is still no absolute guarantee that an inordinate amount of pieces can be taken.

Melee, like checkers involves a slew of offense and defense. Dynamic, with clear shifts in momentum. Brawl, like chess is more of a "give and take", with momentum being much harder to obtain and conversely break. In checkers, the idea of "trading" pieces is virtually non-existent (see: trading hits, which in Melee is long combo strings- essentially impossible due to the nature of the game being "mindgame->combo->combo->combo->kill/reset positions w/ opponent at near kill percent). In chess, "trading pieces" is a staple (see: trading hits, which in Brawl is more or less self explanatory).

There is a limited concept of "material advantage" in checkers; you either have more pieces than your opponent, or you do not. You are either in the midst of an offensive onslaught, or on the receiving end. The idea of "material advantage" exists in Brawl in as close to as its "board-game counterpart" chess."

I mentioned that, because I think that is a similar point of view to the OP. Essentially, saying the same thing but with a bit of whimsical illustration.

I will agree that seeing it this way makes it incredibly fun (as I said, that's why I enjoy/ed it as much as I do/did.) If the illustration could stop there- I would have been content. But, once you begin to add other things that are present into this view- things (for me) get less fun. I could go on a long rant (and tbh, I actually did but decided to delete it) about these things, but I won't unless someone just really wants to know (doubtful)

To surmise: I view it the same way, and when you view it that way, in a vacuum it is incredibly fun. However, once you begin to mix the various elements of Brawl with this... it becomes far less fun.

Either way, really good read. I enjoyed it. Thanks for posting! :)
I want to argue against this, but that would defeat the purpose of my response (and i might lose that arguement lol), which is don't mention melee. This thread is so pure mentioning of it could only lead to bad things. I'll admit its a good analogy.

And I agree with Yuna. =/ You pretty much get punished into this mindset by good (or even decent) players especially in brawl where you can't go into auto-pilot quite as easily (unless your playing certain matchups).

edit: i'll concede this thread is useful to scrubs
 

gcubedude

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Very nice read. I read the part about "A to A to C to D" & it reminded me of my first Street Fighter 4 tourney, where I fought someone who used Cammy, and would also follow one move with the same move afterward, and it became very predictable and very easily punished. In Brawl, or in any fighter, always doing the same combo can lead to a quick defeat.

It's funny that a few people responded with chess references, because I was playing Chess a few days ago at my school, and I realized that I was thinking my moves through in the same way I think my moves through in Brawl. They really are very similar
 

Jupz

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Yeah, I try to think like this but I find it so hard to think of all this in such a short time. Hence why I do a lot better in campy, slow matches.
 

dre_89_

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Good read, but I thought this was all common knowledge. To be honest I never really understood why people think Melee is a better competitive game, where once you land one move you get a guaranteed set, whereas in brawl you have to mindgame/preict nearly every move.
 

FaWa

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Great read.

Brawl forces you to really think tactcicly, and I would go on a psycology rant about it right about now if I wasn't exausted. Melee was more a set goal to win by doing a certain thing to lead into another action and eventually win by usuing this continous chain of combos. It wasn't so much about the predicting your opponent, but more based on whether or not you could combo sucsessully.
 

PhantomX

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I agree entirely with this thread's message, unlike your last one. I've analogued Brawl to a chess game for ages now, and love it to death b/c it's a high paced thinking match at higher levels of play.

The only reason I win anything at all have any success is because I understand opponents' options and my own and can play/think at a very quick pace, forcing more predictable or sloppy reactions. Plus randomness I guess, which confuses people and throws them out of their comfort zone.

There's just something incredibly satisfying about the exhaustion one feels after a set against another really smart, really good player.

However, in my insatiable need to troll, I HAVE to point out that this Falco you are so proud of is the one that lost to a Ganon not too long ago :p
 

Sky`

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@NickA. Do I know you? XD

@Phantom: He didn't even play my falco in tournament. XD
 

'V'

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If smash were like chess, then both players would be on an even playing field at the start of a match. So unless you're playing a ditto, I don't see how the comparison could be made.

Good read though.
 

PhantomX

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It's like chess but everyone gets a few variations to their pieces. If you play MK you have 2-3 queens, if you play Ganon you have a king and the rest are pawns.
 

'V'

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It's broken chess I guess. I don't know, I view it more like Tetris with handicaps, but that's just me.
 

BUDAMAN

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i loved reading this cuz i think it makes so much sense its scary, one of my melee to brawl friends thinks that watching brawl matches are boring, or less exciting than melee matches and i agree to a certain extent the point being that whens the last time u watched an exciting game of chess?
Brawl is more of an exciting and mental stimulating game when your playing it and feeling the options and restrictions swirl around and whiz by when your playing it
 

~Pink Fresh~

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It's like chess but everyone gets a few variations to their pieces. If you play MK you have 2-3 queens, if you play Ganon you have a king and the rest are pawns.
What I got from this:

MK has many options.

Ganon has one.

Makes sense lol.
 

fullynick

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ugh melee has just as many 'mindgames' as brawl.

maybe even more, due to different methods of approach/movement. In melee, the struggle to get a hit is exactly the same as in brawl, its just that there is more at stake - should you get hit you risk losing a lot of percentage. I wish people would stop using threads like this - which apply to ALL fighting games (even mvc2) - as an excuse to assert that brawl is 'more mentally stimulating'.
 

Sky`

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People need to read this and accept that you didn't know everything, rather than just walking into this arrogantly.
 

highfive

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Holy ****. I get it. I realized I do the same thing. Nair with Wolf then go for Dsmash. I always do it without thinking. I get it. I have more options than that. Frick. Why'd it take so long.
 

xxmoosexx

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Holy crap Sky. Freakin beast thread. I get how you talk about people acting like they know it...there is a difference between KNOWING, REALIZING, and APPLYING.

This really helped me. And i like the quote in there that differentiates brawl from melee. I personally think brawl is harder to play overall than melee, melee is super tense getting the first combo off but brawl takes some serious thinking and evaluating.


And the other people who read this as MK has more options than Ganon...read it differently,
Keep at it Sky, just cuz the general community may not listen to you others do.
 
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This thread repeats a lot of the words other people have said before.

You mentioned Think, Watch, Assess, Know and Collect. These words really fit with what I have heard other people say.

1) Thinking really fits with the typical example I have learned with playing Falco. Trying to grab mindlessly will get you punished. You need to factor in the other aspects: watch, assess, and know.

2) Watch. That really fits into observing your opponent. What I learned again by playing falco. If you ever plan to recover with Falco you have to watch what your opponent is doing on stage. If they are far away from the ledge, never phantasm towards them. Watching really determines what options you have access to.

3) Assess. Paying attention to your own tendacies really helps. Again, playing falco taught me that. By constantly trying to go for an Usmash KO that fails, the opponent knows to watch out for that. I observe this of myself and know repeated Usmash attempts will get me punished. I need to wait for the correct chance again instead of trying to force it.

4) Know. Knowledge comes with experience, not really something people can teach you. People can certainly point out some options you have against a certain scenraio, but mostly you have to learn to adapt on your on own.

5) Collect. If you win to not get cocky about or you will slip up. If you win by a close margin look at what you could have done better next time and apply it. If you lose to not john. Really learn from that experience to see what you could do differently next time. You lost because of a CG to spike, learn to avoid the CG or try to learn to tech it.

Nothing about this thread is new that has not been said before, but it certainly is another voice and story that proves these things are correct. You need to watch your opponents movements, access your own methods, think about what you are doing, know your options and above all else remember this: win or lose do not give up, just keep trying.

@Sky: I love how you threw in a little bit of french into that thread. Head to Head xD
 

AtticusFinch

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This is the same concept of which is a better match to watch, two beginners or two pros? The beginners don't know any combo's so their fight is based solely on their knee jerk reaction. They do this, I respond with that and little to no combos. Two pros are skilled, so they see the set ups for any combo and deal with it before they can get tangled in it, they eventually revert to hit and run tactics, I run try to get a lick in, dodge and retreat. Both matches last a while and both are entertaining, this is brawl. In melee, the beginners are somewhat the same but with the pros it's more of who gets the combo off first and from there it's just a string of combos.

On the subject, I agree with you, thinking of brawl as a heat of the moment battle makes more sense, but even with brawls slower game play, it may be to fast to comprehend. Sure the slow moves can be seen, but with meta knight you'll spend more time running than thinking. So sure this can help you predict you opponents better and you'll have better mind games, but you'll still find yourself looking for openings to throw a combo in.

~Atticus
 

masterspeaks

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It's like chess but everyone gets a few variations to their pieces. If you play MK you have 2-3 queens, if you play Ganon you have a king and the rest are pawns.
Brawl plays about as fast as chess. Knowing that the same team that developed Melee also developed Brawl leaves me confused at times. How could a game with the same premise be so much worse? Obviously, it was a fluke. Melee was great because of the physics engine it used, not necessarily because it had a balanced cast or unique mechanics.
 

M-WUZ-H3R3

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Lol so many variables!

The higher tier your character, the more options they have to exploit and silence.
Thats a weird way of putting it. So a character like Jigglypuff has fewer options to exploit? And is that a good thing? Or is that a bad thing?

.........

Whatever :)

Amazing ideas. This will help me especially when I use Wall of Pain because it can become pretty predictable. Rather than going from F-air, to B-air, to B-air, I could go from B-air to FF-U-air or a SH-D-air.

Also my approach: perhaps F-air is getting too stale; it's an easy shield grab. I should combine my N-air with a funky DI pattern.

EDIT: Whats that weird letter in the middle of the alphabet: el-em-en-oh-pee?
 
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/10readssss
I was not intending to sound like I was lashing out or anything. I was simply repeating what you said about it not being new knowledge. I was trying to emphasis what you had already said. I was trying to be like what they do in a vote, I 2nd your motion (but in this case it's I second everything you just said xD).
 

kupo15

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Brawl plays about as fast as chess. Knowing that the same team that developed Melee also developed Brawl leaves me confused at times. How could a game with the same premise be so much worse? Obviously, it was a fluke. Melee was great because of the physics engine it used, not necessarily because it had a balanced cast or unique mechanics.
The same melee team didn't work on brawl. HAL worked on melee, Project Sora worked on Brawl. I even remember a quote saying something like "we assigned a team that has played melee extensively....yatta yatta yatta." Yea, not the same team. 64 and melee were the same team though.
 

cloudenvy112

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In a way, I have thought about stuff like that. Sort of like, I always do this and so if I approach the same way with a different attack, they'll be powerless to stop me. It's not so much as tactical thinking as it is common sense. We as humans see patterns in our actions and others and so we tend to perform the same way for a favorable result, where on the flip side, we can instead switch up our patterns to make ourselves unpredictable to an extent. After reading this, I've definitely thought about how mindgaming others works in my favor.

For example, when I use Lucas, I tend not to use my Usmash or PK Freeze as often as I do my other attacks. So when I finally do use them, my opponents are shocked and lose their stock because I switched up my plan.

I call this pressure and when someone is under pressure, they think differently and tend to make simple mistakes. I will use Boss Battles mode as another example. All of the bosses have differing attack patterns (such as 2 or 4 or maybe 8), meaning the pattern in which they perform their attacks. If their damage is lowered enough or if the order in which they appear is early or late enough, the bosses tend to act in different ways. Rayquaza gets extremely fast if it's one of the last 3 bosses to appear and it digs or flies across the screen 3 times in a row if it's health is less than a 1/3.

Anyway, it seems like I'm going on and on, but the bottom line is, unpredictabilty > predictability on so many levels. Switching attack patterns as Sky` posted makes Brawl one of the best games out there. It's my favorite game. How about you?
 
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