Lucario Brainstorm Thread (Updating Soon.)

[dextasmurf]

Dont kno if anyone knows this but just like when snake takes out a grenade and can grab a person by pressing Z lucario can do that with his AUra ball.....just found it out yesterday and did not see anyone else do it.

 

[iRJi]

Its known...

 

[Mewter]

I'm not quite sure I grasp the physics involved, so I'm not sure how to apply this to Lucario, or IF it CAN be applied to Lucario, but yeah. LOOK INTO THIS GUIZE!

That would be so awesome if Lucario could actually pull this off.

I'm definitely going to try to experiment with this just for the heck of it.

 

[Nubsta5]

I've tried using b-reversal to essentially use the momentum of the knockback to throw Lucario in the opposite direction. I only tried dair, though, and I couldn't see Lucario (off-screen). I need to test it more to see if it does anything.

 

[D. Disciple]

**** you all for calling the new technique "close combat" now I gotta figure out a new title for my lucario vid. XO

oh yeah

<3

 

[phi1ny3]

Blame me, lol.

 

[SuperSmashKing009]

Actually Aurasmash called it Close Combat. lol

 

[phi1ny3]

Now to name it if it takes off...
I was thinking Close Combat (canonical pokemon attack), or even SCIENCE! lol. I was going to do some more testing, but I felt it was more important for lucarios going to Genesis to know a possible tool.

It's okay, it was buried under walls of text, but the point is, it's an awesome name.

 

[Aurasmash14]

Actually Aurasmash called it Close Combat. lol

nah... I Just chose the name.. when phil proposed close combat or SCIENCE! I made the choice rofl, ) <3

 

[Loota]

I'm really looking forward hearing something new of that DI thingy, it sounds too good for Lucario.

Anyways, has it been discovered already that Lucario can glidethrow out of AS charge? I found it today myself. It almost looks like that Lucario shoots himself out besides the AS if done forward

 

[hough123]

I'm really looking forward hearing something new of that DI thingy, it sounds too good for Lucario.

Anyways, has it been discovered already that Lucario can glidethrow out of AS charge? I found it today myself. It almost looks like that Lucario shoots himself out besides the AS if done forward

I don't see much use in this, but it could help for Diddy and Snake.

 

[phi1ny3]

Or Peach and ROB.
Actually, this would be pretty cool if lucario's glidetoss wasn't somewhat slow.
Although this would certainly do some cool stuff in the Diddy MU. I hear that downward retreating glidetoss -> fsmash is cool beans, and this would be a good surprise if Diddy thinks you'd be vulnerable.

 

[hough123]

Or Peach and ROB.
Actually, this would be pretty cool if lucario's glidetoss wasn't somewhat slow.
Although this would certainly do some cool stuff in the Diddy MU. I hear that downward retreating glidetoss -> fsmash is cool beans, and this would be a good surprise if Diddy thinks you'd be vulnerable.

I knew there were more D=
I guess this is kinda cool.

 

[EPIC-FAIL]

I've looked around the brain storming thread, and the punish guides, and wondered if I was the only one who thought about stutter step Fsmash against Snake's Mortar Slide?

i.e. at the start of a match, some Snakes tend to MS at the go (side note, I live in Hawaii. The play style is completely different.). I stopped running into it and started SSFsmash and it worked perfectly. in another match, I read a MS and SS back and Fsmashed and it work.


I am wondering about anyone's thoughts.

 

[phi1ny3]

AS will also own Mortar slide.
as will a bunch of attacks (I think even jab, but I'd have to verify lol )

 

[The_Bear735]

Snake mortar slides into Fsmash so easily that it's ko/**** bait to Mortar Slide Lucario from further than a third of the stage away.

/ old news

 

[SuperSmashKing009]

ok guys I have discovered another way of making the dash attack knock forward. Uptilt>Dash attack>Fair>Nair>FP or upthrow>Fair>Fair>Fair>Dair>DEATH

this combo only works around 0-75% for Lucario. but this is only useful from 0-15% for your opponent, but thats when your percentage is in the range of 0% to 75%. when your percentage is at 51-75% and you want to do this combo to kill him, Then I rather not use Force Palm it will send him to far away for you to string the opponent into a Fair, Nair combo., so its better to use upthrow at this range. (Note this is for Ike currently, still testing on other characters to see if it works with this method.)



I will explain later with a video attached.

 

[tedward2000]

on what character(s) does this work on SSK?
-t2

 

[D. Disciple]

AS will also own Mortar slide.
as will a bunch of attacks (I think even jab, but I'd have to verify lol )

jab does own him. I love lucario's jab

 

[SuperSmashKing009]

on what character(s) does this work on SSK?
-t2

this method is for Ike. right now I'm trying to test this method on other characters

 

[D. Disciple]

I hope you're doing this when your opponents are actually moving. A level 1 comp at least, so you can somewhat get the proper spacing, if this works I see it being nice when you utilt out of shield, since that would probably be your best bet. But highly doubt it will be a death combo though.

 

[SuperSmashKing009]

I hope you're doing this when your opponents are actually moving. A level 1 comp at least, so you can somewhat get the proper spacing, if this works I see it being nice when you utilt out of shield, since that would probably be your best bet. But highly doubt it will be a death combo though.

This is good when you get them from a shield to uptilt>Dash attack> Fair>Nair> then once you get the person off the stage then do the wall of Pain and finish it. its useful but sometimes at low percentages. the thing thats cool of using Dash attack is that it always stays the same knockback and that same knock baclk is good enough to do a Fair>Nair>etc. right now I only tested this with Ike for now, but tommorow I'm going to Diddy Kong. Also by tommorow I will put up some video's of it.

 

[Aurasmash14]

Comboes spring from SSK's mind faster than bullets nice work

 

[SuperSmashKing009]

Comboes spring from SSK's mind faster than bullets nice work

thanks. Some time soon, I'm going to do diddy kong next and then attached it with video's.

 

[phi1ny3]

So guyz, Kita's been doing his Homework:

[20:52] <phi1ny3> Kita, Ted said you found something about hitstun and jabs. Explain plz, I'm interested.
[20:52] <Kitamerby> jab1 has 11 frames of hitstun if you get the super close hit
[20:52] <Kitamerby> that's advantage
[20:53] <phi1ny3> does that include DI?
[20:53] <Kitamerby> it sends them a set distance away horizontally
[20:53] <Kitamerby> They can't DI
[20:53] <Kitamerby> they can't jump out
[20:53] <Kitamerby> it is INESCAPABLE
[20:53] <phi1ny3> So if you're close when you jab, it's liek OMG combo tiem?
[20:53] <Kitamerby> not exactly
[20:53] <Kitamerby> They go pretty far
[20:54] <phi1ny3> Is this the first two jabs we're talking about?
[20:54] <phi1ny3> It sounds like you're talking about the full AAA
[20:54] <Kitamerby> So you may be able to perfectly time a forcepalm while they're moving away, or walk slightly forwards and then forcepalm taking advantage of the fact that even though your advantage is gone, they can't actually get out due to the 2-4 frames required to buffer a jab/spotdodge
[20:55] <Kitamerby> this is jab1
[20:55] <Kitamerby> and it's REALLY hard to get in that hit
[20:55] <Kitamerby> regardless, the fact is that it's fast enough to usually hit regardless
[20:55] <Kitamerby> especially since shield won't save them
[20:56] <Kitamerby> but you have to get it almost frame perfect because you cannot buffer options out of jab mixups
[20:56] <Kitamerby> jab2 though is really tricky though
[20:56] <Kitamerby> in theory, if you do it properly, you get 16 whopping frames of advantage
[20:57] <phi1ny3> the catch?
[20:57] <Kitamerby> remember that dsmash is 17 frames, dashgrab is like 9, and forcepalm/ftilt is 12
[20:57] <Kitamerby> the catch is that they go retardedly far, even though it's set knockback
[20:58] <Kitamerby> as well as the fact that it is RETARDEDLY HARD to get the second jab to sweetspot
[20:58] <phi1ny3> This is good info
[20:58] <Kitamerby> especially considering the fact that in almost all cases, jab1 will not combo into the sweetspot
[20:58] <Kitamerby> there's like a really precise spacing for it to do that, or they have to DI forwards or something
[20:59] <Kitamerby> also, they go out of range of dsmash, that's how far they go
[20:59] <phi1ny3> hmm
[20:59] <Kitamerby> or it seems like that at any rate for mario
[20:59] <Kitamerby> maybe larger characters don't go as far, however remember that heavier characters get less frames of hitstun than lighter ones [21:00] <Kitamerby> in other words, if you act fast enough, you may be able to pseudocombo jab2 to dsmash, but know they can powershield it
[21:00] <Kitamerby> but I doubt they will
[21:00] <phi1ny3> True, I also noticed that even if you time it well, tapping AA is < Holding A for the first two jabs.
[21:00] <Kitamerby> and also that dash grab, forcepalm, and ftilt will most likely true combo out of it, and probably dash attack and dtilt too
[21:01] <Kitamerby> but once again, buffering is impossible iirc out of a jab cancel
[21:01] <Kitamerby> or at least for A moves it looks like. Maybe you can buffer B moves. Dunno. I also forgot to test crouch canceling, but I heard somewhere it wouldn't
[21:02] <phi1ny3> This is pretty good, so I assume jab is now godly if you can get the precise timing? (since you can't buffer)
[21:02] <Kitamerby> not timing, spacing
[21:02] <Kitamerby> the spacing is ******** though
[21:02] <phi1ny3> Okay
[21:02] <Kitamerby> like you'll probably not get it unless you figure out exactly the spacing for jab1 into jab2 sweet, or out of a roll
[21:03] <Kitamerby> like roll into them into jab1
[21:03] <Kitamerby> or spotdodge predict and walk into them and jab1
[21:03] <Kitamerby> or spotdodge predict and jab1 into jab2 as they come out
[21:04] <Kitamerby> jab2 is retardedly hard to sweetspot due to its GIGANTIC hitbox on the aura, the fact that it obviously only occurs after jab1 meaning it requires lots of setup time unless absolute perfectly spaced, not counting what seems to be unallowed to buffer
[21:05] <phi1ny3> So correct me if I'm wrong, but would this would work decently in a match like D3 where he'll be using spotdodge when dealing with smart pressure?
[21:05] <Kitamerby> However, it seems the buffer doesn't seem like a problem because you'll probably have to hold right and crouch cancel your initial dash/simply walk to your followup
[21:06] <Kitamerby> Dunno though
[21:06] <Kitamerby> check if jab2's hitbox beats the vulnerability Z-misplaced frames of DDD's spotdodge
[21:06] <Kitamerby> jab2 has a ******** invisible hitbox
[21:06] <Kitamerby> like gigantic range
[21:06] <Kitamerby> it might actually work, I wouldn't know
[21:07] <Kitamerby> er wait no
[21:07] <Kitamerby> the invisible hitbox is aura box, so that wouldn't work I forgot
[21:07] <Kitamerby> Maybe after his spotdodge comes out if you time it perfectly and space it perfectly
[21:08] <Kitamerby> but remember that heavy characters get less hitstun than lighter characters
[21:09] <Kitamerby> so it's possible we may actually be able to combo jab into initial dash to dsmash (crouch canceled) on characters that are super light like GnW, Fox, or maybe even MK [21:09] <Kitamerby> oh also fun fact. You can cancel the very first starts of your initial dash with a crouch allowing dsmash/tilts
[21:10] <Kitamerby> We need to probably look into this. Also, I'm going entirely based on some data I found which seems accurate as well as like 5 min of training mode, so this is like 90% theory.
[21:10] <Kitamerby> So let's hope for the best and do our best to find out all we can about our jab and possibly revolutionize our game
[21:10] <Kitamerby> So yeah, let's look into this.
[21:11] <phi1ny3> Yes. So let's say I would hypothetically quote this IRC tidbit on SWF, what would you say to potential readers?
[21:11] <Kitamerby> I just said that.
[21:11] <Kitamerby> <<
[21:12] <Kitamerby> We need to test this more and see if we can find something that can truly be considered useful
[21:12] <phi1ny3> lol, K I'll leave you alone, good stuff Kita
[21:12] <Kitamerby> Nah, you don't have to
[21:12] <Kitamerby> I should probably look into it myself now
lol tired johns. Cool Beans

Edit: some continuation:
[21:15] <phi1ny3> Barwl can has mysteries?
[21:15] <Kitamerby> Also now that I think about it, if jab2 does beat ddd's and maybe even rob's spotdodge, that'd be great even if it doesn't sweetspot, because iirc even our aura has some of the best hitstun
[21:15] <Kitamerby> for the jabs at least
[21:15] <phi1ny3> yeah
[21:16] <Kitamerby> but they can jump out of it unlike the sweetspots, which sends them at like 3 degree angles horizontally with landing lag
[21:17] <Kitamerby> put a note that you'll know if you get either jab's sweetspot if they go really far horizontally with landing lag
[21:17] <phi1ny3> Ooh, do you have recording equipment? I dunno, I was hoping that we could do like "slow-mo" stuff lol
[21:17] <Kitamerby> But since I don't have a partner to help me check, I hope that's what it is, although it'd be nice if there was like another box that both popped them up and had the superspecial hitstun
[21:17] <Kitamerby> Nope
[21:17] <Kitamerby> just get close and jab
[21:18] <Kitamerby> oh also note that jab1 sweet won't lead into jab2 sweet, but hilariously, jab2's hitbox is soooo large, iirc jab2's aura hitbox will hit jab1's swee-
[21:18] <Kitamerby> OH ****
[21:18] <Kitamerby> REALLY IMPORTANT I JUST REMEMBERED
[21:18] <Kitamerby> Jab2 and maybe Jab1 have another flaw
[21:18] <phi1ny3> ?
[21:19] <Kitamerby> If you do it wrong, you'll get a REVERSE hit and send them the OPPOSITE way. I'm not sure if that actually is a flaw, as it may actually let you get to them easier (but probably not), but it can definitely screw with you if you're expecting them to go one way and they go the other[21:20] <phi1ny3> Oh yeah, I've noticed that before
[21:21] <Kitamerby> Yeah, it's really common for jab2 sweet, which could be annoying and possibly throw off combos by some frames
[21:22] <phi1ny3> Hope you don't mind, I copypasta'd into the Brainstorm thread.
[21:22] <Kitamerby> I forget, does jab1 make you move forwards? I know jab2 does.
[21:22] <phi1ny3> I think it might
[21:22] <phi1ny3> *checks vids*
[21:22] <Kitamerby> wait no it doesn't iirc, it's the paw backhand
[21:22] <Kitamerby> but check anyways
[21:25] <Kitamerby> maybe if we get the paw backhand reverse sweet, it may give one less distance to run one way or the other by a few frames (maybe forward is easier or maybe back, but it would be nice to check) allowing easier forcepalm/reverse grab/dash attack?/reverseinitialdashjablol combos...
[21:25] <Kitamerby> oh yeah, and did I mention you could cancel initial dashes with crouches, and that Lucario is especially good at it?
[21:25] <phi1ny3> yeah
[21:26] <phi1ny3> Oh, jab1 doesn't move
[21:27] <Kitamerby> Innocentroads found it out
[21:27] <Kitamerby> Sheik's is really good, Lucario's is also good[21:27] <Kitamerby> Sheik's is really good, Lucario's is also good
[21:28] <Kitamerby> it lets you go even farther to space reverse/forwards fsmashes
[21:29] <Kitamerby> it's like a super stutter step

 

[Aurasmash14]

so in other words.... as long as our fingers are faster than sonic's feet Jab becomes Godly?

 

[tedward2000]

Its saying, that if you place lucario's jab correctly and with proper timing, you can pull off other moves on people freely.

After jab 1 or 2, theres a number of frames where they are stunned from the jab. With this known, during their stunned frames, lucario can attack. Most of lucario's moves however exceed the "free hit frame range", but its pretty close.

Like using dsmash for example, if jab'd correctly, you can then dsmash with your opponent only 1-2 frames to react to the upcoming dsmash.
-t2

 

[phi1ny3]

^This.
It's more of a spacing issue, like Kita said.
Also, the Naritake step is another thing I think worth looking into.

 

[Kitamerby]

Actually, tedward and aurasmash are both wrong in a way.

For this explanation, I'll refer to jab1's "close hit sweetspot" as "jab1sweet" and happens when you get a super close hit with Lucario's first jab. Jab1aura will be what I call when you hit with the aura boxes farther away than Lucario's jab1sweet, which are what you'll normally hit with when you think of Lucario's first jab. Same will apply to jab2 being jab2sweet and jab2aura respectively.

In layman's terms, if you're overlapping your opponent in just the right way and jab, you'll send them off with set hitstun and distance and they can't do anything about it, but you have to be basically overlapping your opponent in JUST the right way (because the aura boxes on lucario's jab is so big, think of it as only landing the hitbox on Lucario's body itself). Doing this with jab1 gives you 11 frames of frame advantage on Mario according to some data.

Jab2 gives you more frame advantage at the cost of being ridiculously hard to "sweetspot" due to both gigantic aura boxes giving the regular pop-up knockback, and the fact that you can only do it after jab1, (note jab1 sweet does NOT combo into jab2sweet, and it seems in most cases jab1aura doesn't even combo into jab2sweet either). In theory, there actually probably will be a spot close to but not touching the sweetspot on lucario's jab1aura that will cause lucario's jab2sweet to hit due to him stepping forwards and thus connecting. You may also connect or miss with lucario's jab2sweet if they DI jab1aura.

Also dsmash will probably never true combo unless maybe on a really light character like jigglypuff out of a jab2 due to the fact that you don't need to buffer shield, and that holding L/R will be enough to powershield the dsmash most likely, even if you're frame perfect, meaning that it's a mix-up/pseudocombo at best.


Also, you'll know if you get jab1/2sweet if they go almost straight horizontal with landing lag instead of being popped straight up.


The rest shouldn't be hard to follow and I think this should explain anything tricky

 

[LordoftheMorning]

Wow that's really bizarre, kita. I think we need some vids as soon as possible. Is someone doing that? So the "sweetspot" on Lucario's jab sends them farther away than the normal hitbox? I don't think I've ever seen that before. I'll check it out, asap.

Also, has anyone looked into the AS reverse momentum brake?

 

[Aurasmash14]

Oh ok Kita.. Im no good with frame specifics.

 

[Nubsta5]

Needs a video >_<. I think I've seen this before in matches, but never really bothered to notice.

 

[ckm]

I have a theory about forcepalm that I would like to have tested. I have spoken with a few people about this, but have yet to really make an open statement about it. Basically, my theory is this:

We know there are 2 types of FP, the grab and the flame. We know that we get the flame when we are in the air or too far away (or too close!), and get the grab when we are right next to the opponent on the ground. Clearly, there is a horizontal RANGE in which you can be standing near an opponent and still get the grab--it allows for some error. In other words, I can move a teensy bit back or forward and still get the grab.

What I am thinking is that this may apply to FP not just in the horizontal dimension, but in the vertical dimension as well. If this were true, it would mean we could activate FP a few frames BEFORE landing, allowing us to negate the normal landing lag frames, and getting a much earlier "pseudo-arial" grab.

What it would mean if it was true:
When landing behind an opponent, reverse FP might actually be faster than turnaround grab after landing.
FP upon landing could even be faster than some grabs (tether grabs perhaps?), making it actually viable to use against someones shield (clearly most characters would be able to grab you first if you land in front of them, as they can grab you while you are still in the air, before you are low enough to activate the FP)

I'm sure there are other applications that could be discovered if this were true... id like to test this somehow!

Could someone help me out??

 

[phi1ny3]

Oh yeah, almost forgot about that...
Sound like something to try, I actually want to test this and see if my "theory" is true on this.

 

[ckm]

your theory? what's your theory?

 

[phi1ny3]

That there's a longer lasting grab hitbox than previously conceived, as I've started it on different times against spotdodges and I'm sure by how ever so slightly I get the grab off after some delay as opposed to the normal FP grab. I think that there's a longer lasting hitbox for the grab that just barely extends into it later (like near landing).
I could be wrong though.

 

[Kitamerby]

I have a theory about forcepalm that I would like to have tested. I have spoken with a few people about this, but have yet to really make an open statement about it. Basically, my theory is this:

We know there are 2 types of FP, the grab and the flame. We know that we get the flame when we are in the air or too far away (or too close!), and get the grab when we are right next to the opponent on the ground. Clearly, there is a horizontal RANGE in which you can be standing near an opponent and still get the grab--it allows for some error. In other words, I can move a teensy bit back or forward and still get the grab.

What I am thinking is that this may apply to FP not just in the horizontal dimension, but in the vertical dimension as well. If this were true, it would mean we could activate FP a few frames BEFORE landing, allowing us to negate the normal landing lag frames, and getting a much earlier "pseudo-arial" grab.

What it would mean if it was true:
When landing behind an opponent, reverse FP might actually be faster than turnaround grab after landing.
FP upon landing could even be faster than some grabs (tether grabs perhaps?), making it actually viable to use against someones shield (clearly most characters would be able to grab you first if you land in front of them, as they can grab you while you are still in the air, before you are low enough to activate the FP)

I'm sure there are other applications that could be discovered if this were true... id like to test this somehow!

Could someone help me out??

It works. (not hard to test/perform)

FP before touching the ground and you'll grab on what appears to be the correct frame just as if you had started on the ground(seemingly even if you land on the grab frame). Considering most grabs are frame 6, and some can't even grab aerial opponents, maybe we could look into blockstun on fair/dair for traps, or use it for mix-ups and cross-ups.

All one would need to abuse this would be memory on what distance FP would "auto-grab" on landing for at least slowfall, though maybe with a little more research we could find ways to abuse a fastfalled version.

Still nothing big, but could be useful to remember.


Also, someone seriously needs to confirm that jab frame data and look into it more to at least see if the data is right/if it has any use at all. It probably will eventually go under either the the pseudo-useless and highly situational techs list or the maybe-useful if you plan ahead list depending on more frame data. I can't see the jab sweetspot becoming something big unless it really does combo into kill moves though.

 

[Kitamerby]

Dubblepost

 

[phi1ny3]

I think that I might've found that "sliding jab" CLL was talking about, but it really just seems to be taking advantage of the slight slide that comes with lucario's ending "dash" animation.

 

[phi1ny3]

Oh yeah, so I was playing with pivot walking, which you can see here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sacIYsrRvq0
In terms of raw movement, lucario's got a pretty bad one, but I found out that the slide he gets from doing one iteration and then doing an fsmash is bigger than a strutter-stepped fsmash, like nearly twice as much movement! It was pretty cool, even if it is kind of hard to set it up.