Lucario Brainstorm Thread (Updating Soon.)

[LordoftheMorning]

Updated the vid to the OP. I also tried it out for myself on some CPUs. I'm pretty optimistic about this. If we could take this to the next level by predicting roll and spotdodges, this could be a wicked psuedo-tech chase and a 50-60% per Force-Palm grab. I also fooled around with Uthrow>FPG to start it off on heavier characters. I'm going to work as hard as I can to incorporate this into my game, and I want you all to do the same.

 

[phi1ny3]

Genesis is going to be fun, especially if they don't suspect a thing...
Don't get cocky though lol.
Speaking of which, change the subtitle to something more stealthy and less conspicuous. Like "lucario is so awesome, he plays bass", or something like that lol.

 

[Aurasmash14]

If only Azen was still here to see this lol. I remember he used to chaingrab nearly everybody before they found out its escapable.

 

[LordoftheMorning]

Genesis is going to be fun, especially if they don't suspect a thing...
Don't get cocky though lol.
Speaking of which, change the subtitle to something more stealthy and less conspicuous. Like "lucario is so awesome, he plays bass", or something like that lol.

Ten Four.

10104's (c wut i did thar?)

 

[Aurasmash14]

Rofl. So long as Hylian doesnt throw a fit when he sees the title.

 

[phi1ny3]

>.>
<.<
>.>
*clears throat suspiciously*

I believe we need people to tune the guitar, if you catch my drift.

 

[Loota]

How about using reverse uptilt or dtilt after FP at very low%?

 

[hough123]

I had a nightmere about this, I'm on vacation and some uber tech is found that I can't help with =\

Meh, Sunday will be fun at least =D

 

[SuperSmashKing009]

ok lets do this Phil do you want to go first with your new Close Combat or I go first with the dash attack behavior thing because I haven't been able to confirm it yet.

 

[tedward2000]

I want to see Close Combat working on a Human player. Cause if it does work, then you guys have fleshed out something handy. Unless your pro and you team with a CPU in brackets.
-t2

 

[SuperSmashKing009]

I'm going to see If I try it on a Olimar. because really I don't know how to fight one. lol. so please HELP ME!!!!!!. lol. (but for real though).

 

[phi1ny3]

Tested it on Kevin when he played D3, but it was online, so
I also did it on his Bowser a bit. (although I got jittery fingers that night and kept doing ftilt accidentally lol)

@SSK, Here's an old list of chars that couldn't be FPCG'd, I don't know if this would truly determine the effectiveness, but my guess is that it would:
[FONT=&quot]Mario, Kirby, G&W, Luigi, Diddy, Metaknight, Squirtle, Ivysaur, Ness, Lucas, Wario, ROB, Toon Link, Jigglypuff, Olimar.[/FONT]
kind of old though, so we'd have to make sure to find out if it works.

 

[phi1ny3]

Double post, sorry.
CLL just told me he found some sort of "sliding jab" thing, so I'll see how that works out, since the buffering is a bit tight as is, and this thing also might help.

 

[SuperSmashKing009]

Tested it on Kevin when he played D3, but it was online, so
I also did it on his Bowser a bit. (although I got jittery fingers that night and kept doing ftilt accidentally lol)

@SSK, Here's an old list of chars that couldn't be FPCG'd, I don't know if this would truly determine the effectiveness, but my guess is that it would:
[FONT=&quot]Mario, Kirby, G&W, Luigi, Diddy, Metaknight, Squirtle, Ivysaur, Ness, Lucas, Wario, ROB, Toon Link, Jigglypuff, Olimar.[/FONT]
kind of old though, so we'd have to make sure to find out if it works.

alright so what do you want me to do. figure out if I could chain grab them with FPG. Or do the combo that you just discovered if its the right length for them.

For FPCG:

Mario(2 grabs)
Kirby(1 grab)
G&W(2 of 3 grabs)
Luigi(1 or 2 grabs)
Diddy(2 or 3 grabs)
MK(2 or 3 grabs)
Squirtle(2 grabs)
Ivysaur(3 or 4 grabs)
Ness(1 or 2 grabs)
Lucas(1 or 2 grabs)
Wario(1 or 2 grabs)
ROB(1 or 2 grabs)
Toon Link(3 grabs)
Jigglypuff(1 grab)
Olimar(2 grabs)

At low percentages like at 0%-20%.

 

[phi1ny3]

That's cool.
So this is the "close combat" variation, or the old FPCG?
I want to test some more lol.

 

[SuperSmashKing009]

That's cool.
So this is the "close combat" variation, or the old FPCG?
I want to test some more lol.

its the old FPCG

 

[tyrehire]

Hey, long time reader, decided I could start posting by helping out here =)

I realise the last three pages have been about CC, so posting something *new* might be a bad idea. But here it goes.

You guys probably already know this, but I was messing around with ES one day and found if you ES off an edge while pressing down, lucario grabs the edge immediately. Could this be used to gimp? If so, who will it work best against?

PS. sorry if this has already been discovered!

 

[iRJi]

Its been discovered. To keep this from distracting other posters, I will answer.

Yes, it can be used to gimp/ edge hog. Normally it is more common to just run to the edge and hog it, but using ES to get to it also is a decent option.

 

[LordoftheMorning]

Hey, long time reader, decided I could start posting by helping out here =)

I realise the last three pages have been about CC, so posting something *new* might be a bad idea. But here it goes.

You guys probably already know this, but I was messing around with ES one day and found if you ES off an edge while pressing down, lucario grabs the edge immediately. Could this be used to gimp? If so, who will it work best against?

PS. sorry if this has already been discovered!

Yeah, it has been. We call it the ExtremeHog. You're much smarter than the people who would have made a new thread about it, so no worries. We oughtta start using that more often anyways. The surprise of suddenly gliding past the edge you thought you were about to cling to is sometimes enough to put your opponent off guard and get him gimped.

 

[phi1ny3]

Oh no, it's okay, you are new.
It has been discovered, it's called Extreme-hog.

 

[SuperSmashKing009]

yea you're fine. lol. its a rookie mistake, thats what happen to me.

 

[tyrehire]

Ah thanks guys =)

I've got some ideas that I'm gunna go test, I'll reply with results. It's all basically jab cancel stuff!

Edit:
Alright I've just done a few hours testing, and what I've found is this:
Jab>Jab>F-tilt: too slow, can easily be shielded or interrupted.
Jab>Jab>U-tilt: worked on characters with slower comboes, faster characters it tende to clang a lot (still worked a bit though)
Jab>Jab>D-tilt: same story with the F-tilt, maybe a tad more effective

I also noticed that you can jab cancel ROB across the whole FD, maybe my brother wasn't DIing properly or something?

And mixing it up confuses them. If they keep interrupting your jabs, I found that double teaming at the end worked. Is this too risky for tournament play?
If they kept shielding, a FPG worked, which they then learned to spot dodge, in which case I change my FPG to a F-tilt. Mind games, anyone?

It's not much, but I hope it helps in any way!

BTW, I tried out CC, and I loved it =) works really well on fattys, and if snake drops a nade you can just start the aerial combo early! Lovely.

 

[phi1ny3]

if they are spotdodging your move after 1-2 jabs, do jab cancel, dtilt, pivot grab, or SH fair. Those tend to really help a bit, or even just switching your timing up.

 

[tyrehire]

At lower %, I think the JabJabU-tilt could be very useful, specially to set up some aerials early on. Possibilty? I could play test it if yous wanted.

 

[ckm]

At lower %, I think the JabJabU-tilt could be very useful, specially to set up some aerials early on. Possibilty? I could play test it if yous wanted.

this has been discussed as well..

Let's keep talking about CC. I was playing around against my friend's DK today, and it seems like he can easily DI away and jump to get out before I can re-FP him. I suppose the mixups would make this a bit harder, but I am curious to see whether this will really be effective against good players. I'd like to point out that I may have not had perfect timing... maybe I wasn't buffering the walk correctly?

Phil, i wish you had come over today, we could have tested this stuff.

 

[phi1ny3]

Yeah, parent johns. DI is so annoying, but I want to flatten out all the bugs if I can.
Sorry that this wasn't as good as it I thought it would be, I feel it will still have some little bits that are addable, like how I usually do:
AA-FP, FP (they usually break out of the third one, but not the second), A-grab, dthrow for bigger characters, uthrow for smaller, then string aerials.
I honestly wanted to test this some more, I want to see what CLL was talking about with the "sliding jab" thing.
Also, might have something less significant (not really advanced), but something I noticed involving a throw's possibilities, but I also wanted to tell you guys something:
Learn and build upon the solid workings of each move and the overall lucario metagame, I like this thread, but I also want a strong dedication towards just improving lucario metagame by moving faster, hitting harder, becoming more unpredictable, and most of all, playing smart. I think we all can get caugh up in the idea of a "golden mechanic" that'll help boost, and while it's fun and exciting, the truth is, brawl is brawl.

I dunno about this jab thing, I think I have a different use for the whole close combat thing (not really as glamorous, but still nice to know).
If you are doing FPCG, we all know the problem is that if they mash BEFORE the FP, they can get out.
But if you have been paying attention to their controller and the loud clacks it makes, you should know they start it on your previous FP. That being said. It's all really a bit more of a tech chase (still not quite though):
If your opponent doesn't know about the jab buffering or expects an FP, they'll usually be doing the crazy clicking on their controller on the anticipated FP, and by that, you should be ready to do jab instead of FP since they were doing it on the previous FP, and obviously is not goiing to make good DI.
If they do expect it, and are slowing down the clacks for anticipating jab, continue FP.
Might not work, but still an idea to make it more worthwhile.
idk, just go do well with lucario, try this stuff out, but don't get caught up in it.

 

[Alfa]

Pummel

20. Jabpunch/Pummel/Grabpunch(Press attack while holding the opponent)
Range: Grab
AP
0%- 0.5% to ???
170%- 1.4% max to 0.7% min
Knockback: None to speak of, but great for clearing your move decay.

Frame Data:

Grab (standing)
Hit Box on frame: 6
Hit Box in on: 8
Complete on: 33

Grab (dash)
Hit Box on frame: 8
Hit Box in on: 10
Complete on: ?

Grab (Pivot)
Hit Box on frame: 9
Hit Box in on: 11?
Complete on: ?

(Unfortunately, the grab frame data needs a bit of work, and there is currently no frame data for Lucario's pummel).

This pretty much sums up what it is, so I will now continue onto my suggestion.

With Lucario - Grab -> Spam Pummel -> Force Ground Release/Throw

This can be an effective damage racker in certain situations. For example, when you, as Lucario, are on approximately 120%+, this move should be doing approximately 1% fresh, so, against an opponent on ~100%, it shouldn't be to hard to do ~6% to them, and then finish in a throw, tacking on another 10%, and possibly killing them at higher percents.

However, it isn't necessary to finish in a throw, you can release them, and then:
1. Instantly regrab them.
2. Shield/Spotdodge their attack regrab them.
3. Roll behind and grab them.
4. Attack them.
5. Run awaaaaaaaaay!
6. Chase any attempts to flee and act accordingly.

Now, the first three options, can let you either force a ground release again, putting you back in the same position again, or throw them away. Options four and five can let you put some space between you and your opponent. And option 6 pretty much resets the situation.

So, knowing this, why don't we try doing this every once in a while, Lucario has a fairly fast pummel, which can deal okay damage at high percents, some of the fastest rolls, which help with chasing the opponent, or rolling behind and regrabing, and okay throws, which can be used to rack damage easily, or kill.

 

[SuSa]

Eternal Yoshi did frame data for EVERY SINGLE CHARACTERS PUMMEL and ShadowLink helped me work out a formula for grabs.

Also spamming pummel will only freshen up 1 move in the moveset list for decayed moves. IIRC you need to wait 7 frames between pummels for them to count as a new slot.

The following should be guaranteed. If it's not, my formula is wrong:
12
0%: 18th frame - 1 pummels
10%: 36th frame = 2* pummels (3, but your opponent is able to break out before you throw)
20%: 54th frame = 4 pummels
30%: 72nd frame = 5 pummels
40%: 90th frame = 7 pummels
50%: 108nd frame = 8* pummels (9, but your opponent is able to break out before you throw)
60%: 126th frame = 10 pummels
70%: 144th frame = 11* pummels (12, but your opponent is able to break out before you throw)

 

[phi1ny3]

Eternal Yoshi did frame data for EVERY SINGLE CHARACTERS PUMMEL and ShadowLink helped me work out a formula for grabs.

Also spamming pummel will only freshen up 1 move in the moveset list for decayed moves. IIRC you need to wait 7 frames between pummels for them to count as a new slot.

The following should be guaranteed. If it's not, my formula is wrong:
12
0%: 18th frame - 1 pummels
10%: 36th frame = 2* pummels (3, but your opponent is able to break out before you throw)
20%: 54th frame = 4 pummels
30%: 72nd frame = 5 pummels
40%: 90th frame = 7 pummels
50%: 108nd frame = 8* pummels (9, but your opponent is able to break out before you throw)
60%: 126th frame = 10 pummels
70%: 144th frame = 11* pummels (12, but your opponent is able to break out before you throw)

Yes, this is true. Not well known, but you have to slow your pummels a bit to have them refresh.
Cool chart.

 

[LordoftheMorning]

Okay, so as if all this new stuff wasn't good enough, we got MOAR new stuff coming in! Check this out: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=240920

Now the Fox boards have already figured out a way to apply it to their game as well: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=240983

Applicable to Lucario? DEFINITELY worth looking into. God knows it would be more useful to us than any other character in the game. I'm not really sure where to start though.

Zelda- Bair>Reverse Nayru's
Fox- Uair>Reverse Shine (or Reverse Shine>Reverse Laser if fox has his back to the stage)
Lucario- ????>Reverse AS Charge=Profit?

I'm not quite sure I grasp the physics involved, so I'm not sure how to apply this to Lucario, or IF it CAN be applied to Lucario, but yeah. LOOK INTO THIS GUIZE!

 

[Kitamerby]

Lucario's ForcePalm has the second highest wavebounce out of any special in the game, and in its own way seems to almost have a greater momentum shift itself than Lucas's, although he slows down afterwards, unlike Lucas. :<


I've tried testing reverse wavebounces on knockback, but I probably did it wrong and didn't aerial before testing it because I'm an idiot.


But if it does work, it'll probably be easiest to work with using ForcePalm instead of Aura Sphere. HOWEVER, if the momentum keeps up after a wavebounce, then in theory we not only have a bucket brake of our own, but the aura sphere's high wavebounce itself might actually AID our recovery as well slightly unless I'm interpreting it all wrong.


Dear god, Lucario with a braking move would be ridiculously overpowered. I love it. Let's look into this more.


Also, Close Combat Pseudocombo is sexy. I wanna look into it now.

 

[hough123]

Lucario's ForcePalm has the second highest wavebounce out of any special in the game, and in its own way seems to almost have a greater momentum shift itself than Lucas's, although he slows down afterwards, unlike Lucas. :<


I've tried testing reverse wavebounces on knockback, but I probably did it wrong and didn't aerial before testing it because I'm an idiot.


But if it does work, it'll probably be easiest to work with using ForcePalm instead of Aura Sphere. HOWEVER, if the momentum keeps up after a wavebounce, then in theory we not only have a bucket brake of our own, but the aura sphere's high wavebounce itself might actually AID our recovery as well slightly unless I'm interpreting it all wrong.


Dear god, Lucario with a braking move would be ridiculously overpowered. I love it. Let's look into this more.


Also, Close Combat Pseudocombo is sexy. I wanna look into it now.

I'll try both out later today.

I should go on vacation more often if this is what I come back to =3

 

[phi1ny3]

Rockettrainer said he has found a few uses for it, but I want to flatten it out more.
Also, Kita's theory about it is intriguing. Sounds good.

 

[iRJi]

Looking around and hearing discussion about it, The AS might be the First best way to preform it. For foxes, they can use Reverse Laser and reverse shine. The reverse laser is what I was interested in. Try with AS reversing first, then Force palm. I am going to practice with rookie today actually, so I will test it myself. NinjaLink is the man =D. of course though, if a lot of people have this, it could be a dangerous find.

Also, if it is true for lucario to have it, I will post a vid on it ASAP.

 

[hough123]

Looking around and hearing discussion about it, The AS might be the First best way to preform it. For foxes, they can use Reverse Laser and reverse shine. The reverse laser is what I was interested in. Try with AS reversing first, then Force palm. I am going to practice with rookie today actually, so I will test it myself. NinjaLink is the man =D. of course though, if a lot of people have this, it could be a dangerous find.

Also, if it is true for lucario to have it, I will post a vid on it ASAP.

This could have a "Wavedash" effect on Brawl. The characters who can do it get a large advantage over those who cannot.

Beyond that, how exactly do I do this? I want to make sure I can test it without phailing.

 

[Aurasmash14]

Only a few days after CC we get this. *prays it works*

 

[iRJi]

I didn't get to test it much today. Maybe tomorrow when Pierce gets home I will.

 

[phi1ny3]

Try it against heavier characters, and make sure you buffer it just right, otherwise they'll either get to the ground too soon or break out in the air. It's not like marth air release -> dair on MK obviously, but still needs a little finesse to the timing. And try it on big hurtboxes too.
Rockettrainer said he's found use of this to some effect.
Man, I wish Kevin was here.

 

[SuperSmashKing009]

So anything new about Close Combat yet.

 

[Aurasmash14]

er... not really. Just more DI=FAIL .