Lucario Stage Discussion: Reviewing information

[Player-3]

so much discussion going on in this thread isnt there

o hay thar p4 move to georgia so we can initiate you

 

[Player-4]

so much discussion going on in this thread isnt there

o hay thar p4 move to georgia so we can initiate you

lol maybe one day
I told P1 how that I love RC so he said I was cool.

 

[Alus]

Where the hell is the discussion about Marth/Stage?

Platforms...get rid of them...

 

[Player-4]

uhhhh lets continue to discuss?

 

[phi1ny3]

With one of the best auto cancel aerial games and platform control, it's plainly obvious BF or anything of the sort can't be good.
On a lulzy note, don't go anywhere that extends his smash attack hitbox for a long time, like on brinstar or Green Greens (yes, it's in my area, partially no thanks to a certain famous Peach main who's been blogging about it recently...), the tipper will catch you if you aren't aware of how long it really can last. Not really important, but good to know.

 

[Player-4]

MOTHER ****ing son of a ***** ******* ****s ****ing ****** *****es

 

[D. Disciple]

wtf are we still on Marth? lol let's move to another character, ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm let's talk about the Kongs. Diddy Kong and Donkey Kong get at me son.

 

[Player-4]

uh son, we've already done them? check the front page, and if we could get more information about marth then we could move on.

 

[D. Disciple]

I was drunk when I made that post lmao. Sorry

 

[Player-4]

hahahaha wow, just wow.

 

[D. Disciple]

hehehe. I'll post my info later on Marth

 

[Pierce7d]

Against Marth choose Frigate or FD

 

[phi1ny3]

^That's good enough for me, true on that.

 

[Trela]

Frigate is a good choice.

I at least did ok with Mikehaze on it

 

[phi1ny3]

Remember that he can do some tricky stuff with aerial DB while you're on a platform to poke around shield sometimes (which normally doesn't have good shield pressure), or SHFF untipped uair -> utilt as well. That tends to be really good on stages with platforms like BF.

 

[G-Beast]

does anyone else know that we can cling to the falling blocks in rainbow cruise? i found out by accident when playing there with my friends

 

[D. Disciple]

Watch one of my old vids vs 56k's GaW, G-Beast I do it almost all the time.

 

[D. Disciple]

does anyone else know that we can cling to the falling blocks in rainbow cruise? i found out by accident when playing there with my friends

Watch my vid against 56k's GaW, G Beast I do it almost all the time.

Remember that he can do some tricky stuff with aerial DB while you're on a platform to poke around shield sometimes (which normally doesn't have good shield pressure), or SHFF untipped uair -> utilt as well. That tends to be really good on stages with platforms like BF.

It's amazingly useful on BF.

 

[phi1ny3]

I think a crazier one is Jigg's "wallcling" on certain wall types, she'll float but be stuck in the wall lol.
Ya I've heard of that before, and seen it in vids.
tbh, I think that while RC is bad against floatier/better camp characters, I don't think it's too bad of a stage for lucario, Peach would do way worst on it (gets like no vertical height on the second jump lol). We have good jumps, floaty, and our recovery doesn't get ***** badly on the stage (lots of wallcling opportunities/places to land), even if the boundaries of the stage are less than appealing, I wouldn't go so far to say that it's our worst overall, there's a ton of characters that lucario is bad against that don't do so well on that stage.

 

[D. Disciple]

RC really isn't bad, it's the players that CP us to that are a ***** to deal with. I remember fighting two MKs on that stage before and it was **** near impossible to hit them, it's like swatting at a bat with a baseball bat.

 

[Kitamerby]

RC really isn't bad, it's the players that CP us to that are a ***** to deal with. I remember fighting two MKs on that stage before and it was **** near impossible to hit them, it's like swatting at a bat with a baseball bat.

This sums up my thoughts exactly.

The entire reason I never counterpick Rainbow Cruise or even Luigi's Mansion is because of the mere fact that it allows the opponent the opportunity to choose a character who will most likely be able to take better advantage of it than Lucario ever could, such as Meta Knight, Snake, Olimar, or even Marth to a degree for Luigi's Mansion, or Meta Knight, Mr. Game and Watch, Wario, etc. for Rainbow Cruise.


Also, for Marth, Frigate Orpheon is the best stage to take him to hands down. Nearly the entire stage works against him and for you. The first area of the stage is probably the absolute best stage in the game to use against him legally (Spear Pillar doesn't count. ;-. The trick to abusing this portion of the stage though is to really have your landing frame punishes down pat, otherwise the stage works against you instead of for you. What you want to do to Marth is to get him off the right side, which luckily is actually not that hard due to the tiny size of the stage, and then force him to recover onto either the elevator platform or the solid stage. This will put him in severe lag and vulnerability, and you need to use this time to fsmash, dsmash, ftilt, fthrow, bthrow, anything to just get him off the right side again at a low angle so he must do it all over again. I prefer Fsmash for this because it's so reliable, long-range, sends at an uncomfortable angle even with DI, and can be done out of a stutter/naritake step for even more extra range. This simple tactic will give you a huge advantage, sort of like an even easier version of when DDD is smacking you offstage with bairs, because Marth has virtually NO options other than to DI and hope for the best, especially once he loses his double jump and thus must Dolphin Slash from then on. The first area of the stage is also very kind to your camping, giving you platform cover options as well as not providing Marth very much room to do anything. Also, because of ExtremeSpeed's unique qualities, as well as the fact that Marth's moves aren't as well adapted to punishing landing lag, although in theory dtilt might work okay, Marth cannot possibly turn this strategy against you in the current metagame. Extremespeed to the wall isn't that punishable if you tech his reaction or do it while the platform is above the wall and then rising airdodge with your walljump, and your floatiness is just plain better than his, making it much easier to return to the stage from t he right side, and if you need to, you may even be able to go under the stage to the left side and sweetspot/wallcling there if you feel like it. (Yes, you can wallcling to the left side of the stage.) The only thing you really need to watch out for on this portion of the stage is juggles, because the stage is flat and Marth can easily reach you with usmashes, utilts, and uairs if you aren't careful with your landings.



On the second form of the stage, while not as amazing for you as the first, is also pretty good. The slanted floors REALLY screw up his aerials, making tipper nairs, fair approaches, and a good chunk of his zoning, poking, and pressure games much less effective going both up and down. If he's under the platform, some of his aerialsIf you get under that platform yourself, you can camp him out with short hop Aura Spheres, Fsmash, Ftilt, and fair/bair outwards. He'll have some difficulty getting you out of there, but it's not THAT hard for him. If you're lucky, you'll grab him on a side platform and be able to fthrow/bthrow him for a quick doom or a suicide kill, but he can do that to you as well, and probably do it better with dthrow, so just be careful. Also, the sides of the stage can be clinged to easily, so don't forget to use them if you need to. It's probably a good idea to try to be patient on this area of the stage until the stage flips so you can continue fsmashing him off the right side again, although this area is still somewhat advantageous for you.


In the theorycraft corner, iirc you may be able to curve your Extremespeed onto the floating platform or the main stage if you get good enough, making your return lagless, but I'm not sure if it's humanly possible. I think it is. Also, you may not know this unless you've been in the Luc boards for ages, but you can actually wall jump (not cling) between two walls under the second portion of the stage, allowing you to run the clock for a good while until your wall jumps stale to the point where you fall between the walls, although the average time you can get out of it escapes me. I think it was at least 10 seconds. The downside is that you can only reach it with ExtremeSpeed, meaning that even if you get down there, you absolutely cannot survive the return trip by yourself. I guess you can use it if you somehow got the clock down to like 10 seconds for some odd reason, and you need to run the clock. Maybe it'll count as stalling, but it might not since it doesn't last long because of wall jump degradation.


Also, I was talking to NL, and he brought up the idea of going to Brinstar, and after listening to his points, I think that it might not be a half-bad idea. He's said that Brinstar's acid can help you if you're gonna get gimped, that you can cling well there, that the fact that the hitboxes are extended for a long time by the stage objects, and that Marth can't deal well with nonflat stages that mess up his spacing and aerials. He also stated that because Marth should be spamming his aerials, which are also his only safe kill moves, and they're even limited further because of the terrain, he probably will have a very hard time killing Lucario, making Lucario even STRONGER than usual opposed to weaker on the small Brinstar.

 

[iRJi]

This sums up my thoughts exactly.

The entire reason I never counterpick Rainbow Cruise or even Luigi's Mansion is because of the mere fact that it allows the opponent the opportunity to choose a character who will most likely be able to take better advantage of it than Lucario ever could, such as Meta Knight, Snake, Olimar, or even Marth to a degree for Luigi's Mansion, or Meta Knight, Mr. Game and Watch, Wario, etc. for Rainbow Cruise.


Also, for Marth, Frigate Orpheon is the best stage to take him to hands down. Nearly the entire stage works against him and for you. The first area of the stage is probably the absolute best stage in the game to use against him legally (Spear Pillar doesn't count. ;-. The trick to abusing this portion of the stage though is to really have your landing frame punishes down pat, otherwise the stage works against you instead of for you. What you want to do to Marth is to get him off the right side, which luckily is actually not that hard due to the tiny size of the stage, and then force him to recover onto either the elevator platform or the solid stage. This will put him in severe lag and vulnerability, and you need to use this time to fsmash, dsmash, ftilt, fthrow, bthrow, anything to just get him off the right side again at a low angle so he must do it all over again. I prefer Fsmash for this because it's so reliable, long-range, sends at an uncomfortable angle even with DI, and can be done out of a stutter/naritake step for even more extra range. This simple tactic will give you a huge advantage, sort of like an even easier version of when DDD is smacking you offstage with bairs, because Marth has virtually NO options other than to DI and hope for the best, especially once he loses his double jump and thus must Dolphin Slash from then on. The first area of the stage is also very kind to your camping, giving you platform cover options as well as not providing Marth very much room to do anything. Also, because of ExtremeSpeed's unique qualities, as well as the fact that Marth's moves aren't as well adapted to punishing landing lag, although in theory dtilt might work okay, Marth cannot possibly turn this strategy against you in the current metagame. Extremespeed to the wall isn't that punishable if you tech his reaction or do it while the platform is above the wall and then rising airdodge with your walljump, and your floatiness is just plain better than his, making it much easier to return to the stage from t he right side, and if you need to, you may even be able to go under the stage to the left side and sweetspot/wallcling there if you feel like it. (Yes, you can wallcling to the left side of the stage.) The only thing you really need to watch out for on this portion of the stage is juggles, because the stage is flat and Marth can easily reach you with usmashes, utilts, and uairs if you aren't careful with your landings.



On the second form of the stage, while not as amazing for you as the first, is also pretty good. The slanted floors REALLY screw up his aerials, making tipper nairs, fair approaches, and a good chunk of his zoning, poking, and pressure games much less effective going both up and down. If he's under the platform, some of his aerialsIf you get under that platform yourself, you can camp him out with short hop Aura Spheres, Fsmash, Ftilt, and fair/bair outwards. He'll have some difficulty getting you out of there, but it's not THAT hard for him. If you're lucky, you'll grab him on a side platform and be able to fthrow/bthrow him for a quick doom or a suicide kill, but he can do that to you as well, and probably do it better with dthrow, so just be careful. Also, the sides of the stage can be clinged to easily, so don't forget to use them if you need to. It's probably a good idea to try to be patient on this area of the stage until the stage flips so you can continue fsmashing him off the right side again, although this area is still somewhat advantageous for you.


In the theorycraft corner, iirc you may be able to curve your Extremespeed onto the floating platform or the main stage if you get good enough, making your return lagless, but I'm not sure if it's humanly possible. I think it is. Also, you may not know this unless you've been in the Luc boards for ages, but you can actually wall jump (not cling) between two walls under the second portion of the stage, allowing you to run the clock for a good while until your wall jumps stale to the point where you fall between the walls, although the average time you can get out of it escapes me. I think it was at least 10 seconds. The downside is that you can only reach it with ExtremeSpeed, meaning that even if you get down there, you absolutely cannot survive the return trip by yourself. I guess you can use it if you somehow got the clock down to like 10 seconds for some odd reason, and you need to run the clock. Maybe it'll count as stalling, but it might not since it doesn't last long because of wall jump degradation.


Also, I was talking to NL, and he brought up the idea of going to Brinstar, and after listening to his points, I think that it might not be a half-bad idea. He's said that Brinstar's acid can help you if you're gonna get gimped, that you can cling well there, that the fact that the hitboxes are extended for a long time by the stage objects, and that Marth can't deal well with nonflat stages that mess up his spacing and aerials. He also stated that because Marth should be spamming his aerials, which are also his only safe kill moves, and they're even limited further because of the terrain, he probably will have a very hard time killing Lucario, making Lucario even STRONGER than usual opposed to weaker on the small Brinstar.

I didn't ge time to read it, so im just going by what I skimmed. I will tell you right now not to bring Marth to Brinstar. If you wanna go another character to do that kind of counter pick then go head by all means, but with Lucario stick to FO. Ill be back later, been busy ^_^

 

[Pierce7d]

lol, don't bring Marth to Brinstar. It's bad. But, you may want to consider PS1. I forgot that.

Yeah, PS1 and Frigate = awesome stages for the MU.

EDIT: Since I'm with Ninjalink right now, when he wakes up, I'll play him some on Brinstar to see what's up. Platform camping is good, and Lucario has a really good vertical game, so maybe but . . . maybe not, lol. I think Brinstar is a lot about who's just better using the stage tools when it comes to MUs like this.

 

[Player-4]

finally updated
onto wario!

 

[phi1ny3]

Wario apparently is hated by Pictochat, therefore my logic in that is definitely confident that the missles will autokill wario and then you will win the match hahaha:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xcojcb7ZMxc&feature=related

In all seriousness, strike BF/SV for neutrals for sure though.

 

[Player-4]

Lol that video is too good.

What do you guys think of the new pictures on the front page?

 

[tedward2000]

Lol that video is too good.

What do you guys think of the new pictures on the front page?

National Geographic, good stuff. Wario's is the best imo.
-t2

 

[Player-4]

Phil could I get this stickied?

 

[phi1ny3]

Yeah, if this thing doesn't keep going necro guys (same with the Lucario doubles discussion)

 

[Player-4]

lol agreed, we just need to get people in here to do work.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I'd think your best neutral would be Yoshi that's your best neutral and it's one Wario's don't like to much. So that would be your best bet IMO. You can do all your little wall cling tricks and camp under that platform which is a tad annoying. Final D may be able to work for you.

Counter pick I'm not really too sure what stage you will go to maybe Yoshi's for the same reason. I heard Japes is a decent Lucario CP but in my region it's banned so it's really hard to say. I think Yoshi's may be good or maybe Frigate.

As for ban it's hard to say. It's pretty easy to CP lucario. Since two of Wario's strongest stages is really bad for Lucario. Brinstar and Rainbow Cruise so those would be the two stages I'd ban if I was lucario.

 

[Player-4]

How does Wario fair on Frigate? That seems to be most Lucario players favorite CP stage.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

How does Wario fair on Frigate? That seems to be most Lucario players favorite CP stage.

It's pretty good for him. Depending on the character if they have laggy recoveries it's really easy to punish on that side before the stage flips. But lucario can cling to that wall so it may be different. I'm not too sure what parts he can cling onto. But it's not a bad stage for him I don't think you can take him to a stage and it instantly give you an advantage. Luigi's may be good but that's also banned so I'm not too sure.

 

[toobusytocare]

why would lucario like frigate? o_O


Take wario to Japes or Picto where he will have a hard time killing you


essentially he needs to kill with fart early or hes gonna get ***** lol

 

[phi1ny3]

You mean why he would like Frigate in general?
He's not hindered on the right side like most characters, he gets a wallcling that gets slight protection from the platform, in fact, he can wallcling on all the sides/ledges of the stage if his opponent tries to ledgehog him if he directs it slightly under the ledge, thus reducing one of his weaknesses. Some of the stage transformations allow some of his moves to be really good, the stage ceiling/sides are decently large (ceiling is about the size of FD's), allowing him to benefit from the aura boost a little more, and his AS camping is pretty good there depending on the MU.
This is a very good stage against characters with gimpable recoveries with Lucario's WoP'ing like Marth, Falco, Olimar, Mario, etc.
But I can see why he wouldn't want to use Frigate against Wario, considering his recovery is pretty decent, and he could get in some trouble with wario's edgeguarding.
I agree that Japes could be a pretty nice option for Lucario in this MU, as would Pictochat.

 

[phi1ny3]

Double post:
Wario doesn't like FD, that's a good neutral.

 

[culexus・wau]

Less platforms + places for wario to run the better.


this cost me a set when a wario timed me out on my favorite CP ;_;.

just stick to FD/YI/SV depending on what he bans and hope for the best if he beat you game one.

Wario's ability to adapt to stages/play immensely gay if he wanted to extends ours greatly

 

[phi1ny3]

Yeah this is one where you really need to know whether the wario is willing to play gay or not.

 

[Rayku]

Ban Battlefield against Wario. If he's willing to be really stupid to you, he'll just jump around and you won't be able to touch him.

Judging from my experience with a certain extremely run-away Wario, Smashville is pretty annoying as well. Not impossible, though.

I like Yoshi's Island as a neutral against Wario. Lylat Cruise could be useful as well.

Don't pick Frigate Orpheon against Wario. They like that stage for some reason (from what I've seen)

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Strike Lylat and Battlefield, those stages are just screaming time out. You can technically catch him and do some damage, but it's not worth the risk running around for 8 minutes. SV hell of a lot better than than the above two. There is one moving platform, but he has less running room. Any smart Wario will strike/ban FD. Lack of running away effectively character CP risks are too high.

Don't go to Pictochat, while nothing is on the screen it works like FD, but when it add stuff, Wario smiles and almost everything can benefit him. I don't know about Japes. PS1 will work if it's in the neutral state, but some of the stage changes will help Wario pull his running away game more.