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Lucas Stage Counterpick disscussion: Discusion #9: Toon Link & Zelda/Sheik

Levitas

the moon
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Lucas has an easy time recovering on the right, and rob can't really do anything stupid like DDD would on the left.

The platform/stage layout make PK freeze better than lasers and PK fire if you're into that kinda thing.

I'd advise camping at the bottom of the slanted part of the stage. I think lucas does OK here, but it's not spectacular.
 

Natch

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Counterpick Brinstar against ROB. That lava can keep his Gyro bouncing on top of it for extended period of time. Which means you can force an approach(If you try to use a projectile, you get Lasered).

Norfair is good as well because ROB has a blindspot below and behind him. Kinda obvious here.


Kinda funny how Lucas can always go to Norfair/Brinstar and get an advantage there, while the opponent is disadvantaged at the same time.
 

~Pink Fresh~

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Counterpick Brinstar against ROB. That lava can keep his Gyro bouncing on top of it for extended period of time. Which means you can force an approach(If you try to use a projectile, you get Lasered).

Norfair is good as well because ROB has a blindspot below and behind him. Kinda obvious here.


Kinda funny how Lucas can always go to Norfair/Brinstar and get an advantage there, while the opponent is disadvantaged at the same time.
ROB has a blind spot... behind him???
i knew about below him, but not behind him.

ya pretty much what i said, but it doesn't ALWAYS work. usually the Norfair/Brinstar thing works for the higher tiers, with an exception of a few (**** G&W/MK).
trust me you do not want to take bowser to Norfair.
 

~Pink Fresh~

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BUMP THIS S***
seriously we need to have important topics like this at the top of our boards, not falling down to the next page.

sorry for the double post...
 

Levitas

the moon
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Rob doesn't have a move that can hit you from below and behind earlier than his nair. So behind and below him in the air is ok
 

DemonicTrilogy

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That's for me to know
Use nairs when he shields and dairs when he isn't or PK fire when you feel like you need space as approaches.

Edge guard him as much as you can because he can't do much about it. Always stay above him when off the edge. He can spike you out of your PK thunder. Guarding with Freeze works against him since he can't airdodge out of his burner.

Don't let him camp, that's just asking for trouble. Always put constant pressure on him. If you see him spot dodge spam, use nair, dair or downsmash to punish him.
 

x9whitey9x

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It feels like the first couple posters have this figured out.
CP Brinstar and Norfair against both Falco and ROB.
Avoid Japes and FD (Falco), FD, Halberd, Delfino (ROB).
 

DemonicTrilogy

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That's for me to know
The first stage of Frigate orpheon is not one of Marth's best since one side doesn't have an edge. Since his recovery requires an edge to be most effective, he might suicide half the time from this.
 

~Pink Fresh~

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for marth and wario avoid platformed stages
Battlefield are pretty good for the both of them. i actually don't know much about those two when it comes to stage counterpicking...
TO THE MARTH BOARDS!
 

prOAPC

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vs Marth, use large stages, he'll have a hard time killing if not hit with the tip. I like FD :). The grab release is not a huge problem for me, but if it is a problem for you, go to Norfair. BF is a good option too, if you are in a plataform, and Marth is below you, and tries a usmash, you can hit him easily with a dsmash. The usmash may fail because its hitbox
 

~Pink Fresh~

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vs Marth, use large stages, he'll have a hard time killing if not hit with the tip. I like FD :). The grab release is not a huge problem for me, but if it is a problem for you, go to Norfair. BF is a good option too, if you are in a plataform, and Marth is below you, and tries a usmash, you can hit him easily with a dsmash. The usmash may fail because its hitbox
...don't go to battlefield.
you should definitely ban that.
also norfair is a good marth stage. his aerial game is just too good there.

just like everyone else... brinstar causes marth problems lol.
CP brinstar, uhm i think frigate is pretty bad during the first part of the stage.

oh and wario...
ban frigate
i think he does pretty well on rainbow cruise/japes, so those are more ban choices.
CP
does wario really have any bad stages?

Edit: added stuff to marth and wario for CP/ban
 

_Void_

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BF is a good option too, if you are in a plataform, and Marth is below you, and tries a usmash, you can hit him easily with a dsmash. The usmash may fail because its hitbox
Never go BF against a Marth, you'll get ***** like hell if your opponent really knows what he's doing...
Seriously, Marth is uber **** on Battlefield, his stupid sword goes through all of those platforms, hitting you while he is safe and Marth's platform game is great in general. Also, the stage is much too small for Lucas to effecively stay out of Marth's range and set up some mindgames. The edge is pretty much the only thing holding Marth back here...
Norfair is a great counterpick, as Lucas easily outmaneuvers Marth there (partly because of his Rope Snake) and the basic shape of the stage makes recovering somewhat harder for Marth.
Rainbow Cruise works as well if it is allowed, because Marth's jumps are way lower than yours, he falls faster and his up-b is easily punishable if he misses a ledge. Just stay away and spam PK Fire. When you see an opportunity, go for an easy gimp kill (and believe me, there are tons of possibilities)
If for some reason you find a tournament that has it counter-pickable, Port Town also works nicely (no ledges). You can PKT2 (and Zap Jump) through the whole stage as well, just remember to Lag Cancel by finishing it close above the ground. Don't forget that Marth is really light as well, so if you practice avoiding the cars you will have an additional advantage as Marth dies at ridiculously low percentages when hit by them. Zap Jumping and PSI Magnet aerial stall might help, but always remember that you waste your second jump that way and also take into account the lag from PSI Magnet. Magnet Pull-mindgames often help in avoiding his attempts to punish you, tho, so it really is a decent option.

So, I would say ban BF, strike YS (you should do that anyway lol), CP either Norfair or Rainbow Cruise. Brinstar is not the best choice IMO, it is inferior to both stages that I've mentioned above. Port Town would be nice, but it s usually banned.

Just talking about the remaining neutral stages: FD can be seriously considered here, which is really unusual for the "standard"-Lucas, because of it's size - go spam PK Fire and make use of that ftilt to hopefully punish some messed-up approaches. Also, go for PKT gimps, they are the most effective here.
Smashville is a tad better IMO because sliding dsmashes are always fun and the moving platform helps in outspacing Marth, who is almost entirely reliant on his spacing. That platform also is at autoland-height for you, a treat that isn't granted to that stupid swordsmaster. Lastly, you can sometimes recover onto this platform for unpredictability's sake, while Marth will not do so (too high above the stage and stupid lag because it has no ledge).
Lylat really isn't that great because it is rather small and Marth's sword still is stupid as hell with platforms... The tilting stage might screw up his recovery, tho, just don't count on that if you are facing a decent player.
Delfino, should it be neutral, is quite nice because of that PKT2-through-stage stuff, but Port Town would be better and a good Marth will easily avoid your attempts to do so.

Hm... After thinking about all of that for a while, I also thought about Pokémon Stadium 2. It actually is quite fun: the main part has only two platforms, which is acceptable, and the transformations mostly support Lucas. Rock Transformation is great for Craq-Walk mindgames with the hill (ftilt rocks!), sliding dsmashes and similar stuff. The hill also makes PKT stalling a viable option. Ice is nice because of sliding everything. dsmash, ridiculously long sliding JC usmashes, ftilts, utilts, whatever you like. Your smashes are great if you slide them, at least Lucas profits more than Marthyboy does. Electric transformation also allows for sliding stuff (especially dsmash) and ledge-cancelled usmash (IIRC). And last but not least, PKT is **** if you get your opponent in the air while the stage is in it's air transformation.

So yeah, hope you got some ideas out of that and use the legal stages to their fullest potential.

Wario analysis probably coming up tomorrow...
 

~Pink Fresh~

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the PS2 idea is genius lol.
i might have to stat playing there more often.
still no idea on what to do against wario. pick a flat stage like FD to avoid platform games. norfair seems good because we can space ourselves across the huge stage. wario likes cramped stages (no brinstar :(), so any stage with alot of breathing room is good, besides rainbow cruise lol. that stage is ridiculous for him.
 

Lizard

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for some reason, castle siege works well for me....

of course if you opponent is D3 or falco, the second portion is really dangerous.... :/
 

~Pink Fresh~

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for some reason, castle siege works well for me....

of course if you opponent is D3 or falco, the second portion is really dangerous.... :/
that's good and all, but the discussion is focused on counterpicking against two characters, not just what stages you like counterpicking.

if you like castle seige against the characters we are currently discussing, (marth and Wario) please say why.
 

Tyr_03

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I know we're past Marth but Pokemon Stadium 2 might be a good counterpick against him because two of the stage transformations make his grab release stuff not work because of conveyer belts and ice. Just a thought. Haven't tried it out at all really.
 

~Pink Fresh~

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ohhh lucario, well don't go to yoshi's island. he can wall cling and just hop up whether it's to gimp or recover. that gigantic platoform compliements his aerial game.. and that stage in general just causes us problems. uhm.. i think he doesn't do to well on brinstar. so that's always a good place to go for CP.

Donkey Kong? avoid Japes.

i'll edit this later. to add more for CP/Ban for both characters.
 

dawgbowl

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Donkey Kong is probably going to have trouble without battlefield as a neutral for the first match. His hands practically cover a 1/4th of the bottom of the stage so Lucas Wavebouncing will be more difficult to space.
I take everyone to Norfair, because it is amazing. So as for a counterpick I'd choose that unless someone can tell me why Brinstar would be better.

Lucario is obnoxious wherever, I agree getting rid of Yoshi's, but only because I hate playing on that stage period.
Probably wouldn't go norfair here because of his supreme aerials... Oh wait I usually do and usually win because it is too good.
 

Samuelson

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Not at Kinko's straight flippin' copies
Take Lucario where the blast zone is ridiculously small like Corneria or Green Greens. Brinstar also works. When you fight Lucario you want him to die at low percents and Corneria and Green Greens do a very good job at doing that. Lucario is pretty good on every stage but he doesn't have very many stages that he is amazing on...maybe if Hyrule Temple was legal.
 

Cheeri-Oats

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Samuelson should know the Lucario/Lucas match-up.

Back to Marth, because that's what's scary and I want to know my options. How would Frigate do?
 

x9whitey9x

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Yeah, keep Diddy away from levels without platforms, like FD and SV.
I'd stick to Brinstar here, because Lucas can control the stage much better than can Diddy and his nanerz.
 

ParanoidDrone

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This is complete theorytarding, but what about Luigi's Mansion as a Pikachu counterpick? Thunder Jolt has trouble moving around the platforms and runs into the pillars and the two ceilings block Thunder. IDK how much room they need for QAC and if the bottom level provides enough of it.
 

~Pink Fresh~

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i didn't know paranoid posted that. well against diddy Ban FD. it's no point of banning any other stage. CP brinstar, RC, and maybe pirate ship.


i don't know anything about pika. :(
 

prOAPC

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IC's chain grabs can be done in the same place, am i right? I would say go for those stages that change often, like PS, the camera will zoom out, and the stage can help you to get free from the grabs
 

ToxiCrow

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Avoid Final Destination against Ice Climbers? IDK I've got nothing.
IC's are not that bad actually, but i wouldnt fight them at FD, BF or Smashville.
there not too tough of a matchup. when popo is by himself, he's not helpless but he cant fight against lucas too well.
my input: take them to pokemon stadium; it has a little bit of everything
EDIT: Better yet, take them to Pokemon Stadium 2. the conver belts and the air pushing you upwards disrupts their chain grabs.

This is complete theorytarding, but what about Luigi's Mansion as a Pikachu counterpick? Thunder Jolt has trouble moving around the platforms and runs into the pillars and the two ceilings block Thunder. IDK how much room they need for QAC and if the bottom level provides enough of it.
Gold. great idea
 

~Pink Fresh~

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lol it's easy to CP IC's.

erhem... RC, PS1, PS2, Norfair, Brinstar, Frigate are all bad stages for IC's, i'm probably missing some as well.

uhm... kirby
idk... I don't think kirby has a "bad" stage.
 

ToxiCrow

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lol it's easy to CP IC's.

erhem... RC, PS1, PS2, Norfair, Brinstar, Frigate are all bad stages for IC's, i'm probably missing some as well.

uhm... kirby
idk... I don't think kirby has a "bad" stage.
whats the name of the kirby stage with the laser? i cant think of the name right now; but that one is also bad for IC's.
idk any bad stages for kirby. he's a solid all around character
 

FireKirby7

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Kirby has no bad stages I think..... He is a all around character.
Maybe CP Corneria or Brinstar and you can kill him easily cuz of the stages small size. Isn't Kirby the 4th lightest character in the game? Lucas fsmash could maybe kill him at 60%! :laugh:

PS1's gimmicks can probably stop his early percentage CG's too.
 
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