Luigi Matchup Discussion Thread: (Update: Wario Discussion)

[Locuan]

boss doesnt understand big words like frames :[ jk i thought boss already knew he buffered his moves which makes it look faster like " l cancel"

@ loc, ty ;D anyways im thinking around 55:45 w/o infinite and maybe 30:70 w/ pro infinite but im still leaning in asking d3 boards for moar info

It would be a good idea to ask them.

@ Boss8: I sent you a PM, kinda like the same message from here. To start things off I want your insight on how it works so I can have a bit more knowledge on the subject.

 

[Pompi]

ok ive made hte post lets hope for the best

 

[ALiAsVee]

I'm realistically speaking w/ and w/o infinite cause it does make a difference in the matchup. My point before was that I wanted to end of what locuan said earlier" OMG INFINITE BROKENZ 100:0 END DISCUSSION"!

Well if thats the case, oh noes xD. Infinite doesn't make the match up 100:0. I tend to skip past some posts because i'm sleepy on the boards xP.

 

[Pompi]

heres what we have been able to learn on d3]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23UyrHXK36A this video helped me a lot

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23UyrHXK36A

Let me do some explaining here:

I play against some of the best Luigi players in the midwest in Sandwhich and TheMann. What I have noticed when I play against Luigi that his game involves a lot of constant pressure and comboing. Also, Luigi's key feature is his FAST aerials and his relatively low lag. However, Luigi does not really approach on the ground, he approaches in the air because of his aerials. His ground game is not super good, but his down B can get him in and out quickly for some quick pokes.

All of this together gives Dedede MANY opportunities for shield grabs. As a Luigi player, you need to be EXTREMELY careful as to not get shield grabbed, because this will start the infinite. However, you also have to watch out because if you're just floating around in front of him, you will likely be in up tilt range. That's what should be going on in a King Dedede main's head. The luigi player really only has two options and that is throw fireballs from midrange or approach with quick aerials. Both of which can quickly change into King Dedede's favor.

Key information on the infinite:

Ankoku and I originally did a lot of research on this infinite and he came to the conclusion that the "stale moves list" only has 9 moves in it maximum. Here's how that applies to King Dedede:

With Mario, Luigi, and Samus for some reason after 5 consecutive down throws, the move stales and King Dedede is not able to regrab them. With Samus and Mario, however, they can be regular chain grabbed afterwards, which usually leads to an easy zero to 70% combo in addition to an edge guarding attempt. Luigi players are lucky in the sense that Luigi slides all over the place and prevents King Dedede from chain grabbing him regularly so he can't follow up. This is where the stale moves list comes in...

If I do 5 consecutive throws, you break out between the 5th and the 6th throw. However, a grab attack (Dedede's head butt) also counts as a move in the stale move list. Look at these possible stale move lists:

1. down throw - down throw - down throw - down throw - down throw

You will break out automatically after the 5th throw

2. down throw - punch - down throw - punch - down throw - punch - down throw - punch - down throw

Here's 9 moves in the stale move list alternating a punch and a down throw. Since the next move would be a punch the next stale move list would read:

punch - down throw - punch - down throw - punch - down throw - punch - down throw - punch

Since there are NEVER more than 5 down throws in the stale move list if you add in a punch between each throw, the move will never stale and it is an infinite.

As far as being able to get out at early percents goes, in smash you are naturally more and more unable to break out of throws the higher your percent is at. So, at 0% you can break out RIGHT after a punch where by 50% a punch is nearly guaranteed if the King Dedede player buffers in the punch after the grab. Which means they can infinite you starting at around 50%. That's why the infinite is so good and so hard to break out of.

I hope that helps and please let me know if you have any more questions.

this is it basically im hopin they will answer back about the stages we should ban , and which should we counterpick

about stages :

against d3s:

Man, I'd say anything that forces a D3 player to move. Brinstar, Norfair, Rainbow Cruise. The problem being he just has to grab you more times to kill you is all. I don't think the match up is any easier, just longer, lol.

as far as stage goes, i'd say battlfield is good.

u can just fight around the platforms and generally if u get grabbed on a platform, chances are ur too close to an edge to get infinited. it doesnt work wen they throw u off the edge.

i would say CAMP the platforms, but try to make it so most of the fight after 0% is there. (wario players do this to me and the fight becomes alot harder because of it.)

lemme rephrase that.

its not alot harder, its just less easier.... if that makes any sense.

against mks

I pick Rainbow Cruise always (well, against Luigi at least), so you should probably choose to ban that. If you do, I'll probably pick Jungle Japes. Assuming the MK player bans Yoshi's Island (Melee), I would recommend you pick Pirate Ship if the tournament allows it. Otherwise, Norfair is what comes to mind as the next hardest against Luigi.

I'll post about how I play later tonight or this weekend.

 

[nash123]

Boss, D3 doesn't die 50-60% from firepunch infact, they barely get in the bubble with DI.Even computers don't die at that percent from firepunch.The only way he will die is if on a platform at 50-60%.

 

[Magus420]

In my experience, anything over ~75% is too high to mash out of 2 pummels (might be a bit different for D3). So if you can dthrowx4 grab, pummel twice, then grab, pummel etc, an infinite would be pretty much inescapable beyond ~45%.

I know this makes a few assumptions, but it's accurate enough. So the infinite is escapable at low %s, but fairly quickly is inevitable. So, dedede essencially just has a really low% KO on luigi, that's pretty easy to land. So the matchup isn't impossible, even with the infinite, but you have to be able to KO him before you hit 45 or 50%.

You're really underestimating just how quickly one can escape grabs when they know they're coming. Pummel twice with only 75%...?

You can mash out of grabs WAAAAYYY faster than that in Brawl. If the Dedede player can get you even once before 100% when you knew the grab was coming ahead of time, like you would when getting regrabbed by Dedede, then you need to mash out more effectively.

 

[boss8]

lol magus i already new about this

 

[CR4SH]

Or you guys could just watch the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23UyrHXK36A

Thank you for making me smarter.

Or at least more informed. That helped.

Also, I wish boss was more articulate. I mean, he's so god****ed good. I wish what he says was more easily understood and translated into reality. But I'm sure that's in large part due to the "this **** is so obvious" effect that people have when they're that good at something. Ever wonder why your calc professor is so ****ed bad at teaching basics?

You're really underestimating just how quickly one can escape grabs when they know they're coming. Pummel twice with only 75%...?

Um, wow. Yes I was very wrong obviously. If you can get out before 2 hits beyond 100%, that seems to make the infinite fairly irrelevant. I mean, D3 Utilt is more dangerous than THAT. Wow. Lay some knowledge on me?

 

[teh_spamerer]

Here's some data on when Luigi kills Meta and when Meta kills Luigi. The tests were performed against a level 3 CPU in training mode set to Stop(they still DI, though I doubt it's perfect DI)

Luigi
up B- 43%
fsmash angled up - 72%
aeriel up B - 74%
fsmash - 86%
upsmash - 94%
nair - 105%
reverse dsmash - 109%
uptilt - 115%
dsmash - 118%
bthrow - 135%
bair - 136%
dair - 140%
upthrow - 167%
ftilt - 173%
fair - 186%

Meta Knight
tipper uptilt(only possible if Luigi is in the air) - 115%
fsmash - 117%
reverse dsmash - 118%
glide attack - 128%
nair - 133%
dsmash - 135%
grounded shuttle loop - 135%
dimensional cape attack - 162%
tipper dair - 168%
aeriel shuttle loop - 170%
upthrow - 171%
bair last hit only - 172%

 

[kigbariom]

Just today, I was playing against D3, and I was getting "infinited", big time... The tactics I'm using are down-b right to him to get him up in the air, then go to my aerials. I want to be able to use a shoryuken, but his down grab is the only thing he uses at all... I mean ONLY. So even if I do get him in the air for a limited amount of time, once he gets back on the ground, its back to his infinite. I can't roll or sidestep. I try shad, to get on the other side of him, and I have c stick as tilt attacks so I can combo, but I'm still being beat, and I'm not used to being spammed up so often...

 

[Locuan]

Just today, I was playing against D3, and I was getting "infinited", big time... The tactics I'm using are down-b right to him to get him up in the air, then go to my aerials. I want to be able to use a shoryuken, but his down grab is the only thing he uses at all... I mean ONLY. So even if I do get him in the air for a limited amount of time, once he gets back on the ground, its back to his infinite. I can't roll or sidestep. I try shad, to get on the other side of him, and I have c stick as tilt attacks so I can combo, but I'm still being beat, and I'm not used to being spammed up so often...

See the above post by Magus, it has a good animation that can give you an idea of how to escape the infinite. All I can say is that I could escape it in between the throws and in high percentiles while mashing.

 

[hippiedude92]

So like, will you update on the D3 post? Cause someone posted the extensive post on what infinite really does and how to escape etc etc. So will you locuan? or moar discussion?

 

[Locuan]

So like, will you update on the D3 post? Cause someone posted the extensive post on what infinite really does and how to escape etc etc. So will you locuan? or moar discussion?

I was giving time for the whole week to go by to then update the OP. Either way I would like to start hearing what everyone thinks on a rating for the matchups.

D3: ##:##
MK: ##:##

 

[hippiedude92]

Darn, I'd give a very extensive post on MK, but I don't fight every day MKs to know basic knowledge -.- But i can still give something on it.

Should I revise my post on D3? firstpage Even though I'm super hella lazy lol.

Anyways, on matchup ratings

D3 75:25 W/ infinite D3's favor

55:45 W/O infinite D3's favor

MK 70:30 (maybe 75:25).

I'm still open to change the ratings anytime.

 

[nash123]

D3-65:35 D3s favor
MK-70:30 Mks favor

 

[hippiedude92]

D3-65:35 D3s favor
MK-70:30 Mks favor

Your evidence to back up that analysis is?

 

[nash123]

Your evidence to back up that analysis is?

He asked for peoples opinions on the matchups, I gave mine.I could write something up but I am the same as you, lazy.I'm guessing your skeptical about the D3 rating?

 

[Pompi]

man d3 isnt THAT hard without the infinite , with the infinite he owns but its not exactly an immeadiate win without it

 

[ROFL]

Metaknight - dont fall off the stage because usually if you lose to a metaknight, its because he is gimping you at low %. not because he is out damaging you. use your triple jab combo a lot because its your fastest move to try and combat meta knights ******** lack of lag. use tornado and fireball along with that to try and rack on damage. after that try your best to get an f smash or ub b.....but that can be very hard to do so i personally just try to keep racking up damage and let the kill come to me. otherwise you start doing stupid stuff and get *****.

DDD- i wouldnt know because i dont play this matchup anymore. it is not fun at all. if i was you i would learn how to play another character so you can have fun playing instead of camping. he can grab you from nearly every move. spaced back airs. THE MIDDLE of your frikken tornado. pretty much anything. and if you try to fireball camp he can run up, power shield, and grab you. this match is impossible as long as your opponent is good. if your playing an idiot, maybe you can do it.

i play against the best ddd on west coast regularly and trust me this match sucks ***. if you dont agree you probly dont play any good ddd's

 

[Locuan]

So tomorrow's the last day before the update and the next rotation any final thought's comments on the match-ups?

 

[boss8]

Metaknight - dont fall off the stage because usually if you lose to a metaknight, its because he is gimping you at low %. not because he is out damaging you. use your triple jab combo a lot because its your fastest move to try and combat meta knights ******** lack of lag. use tornado and fireball along with that to try and rack on damage. after that try your best to get an f smash or ub b.....but that can be very hard to do so i personally just try to keep racking up damage and let the kill come to me. otherwise you start doing stupid stuff and get *****.

this man speaks da truth...

 

[Delta_BP26]

Yeah... Let's move on to the next match-up. I request that we remove all the old stickies and move in the new ones. Seriously, we need to renovate this place. It's like my apartment.

 

[Locuan]

Updated D3, MK will be done soon. Also, we shall start discussion the next two rotation characters soon.

 

[PolMex23]

My recommendation to you unless your the most brilliant fighting game wizard ever an have decided to play smash and in brawl main luigi...

Than you are switching for both D3 and MK.

Only average and below D3 players you should mess with. MKs can just gimp you so hard and easily might as well practice your Snake if they are that bad.

Only 2 characters in the game Luigi has almost no chance against. Every1 else are very beatable.

Too bad they are god tier...but who cares.

 

[LuigiKing]

I agree with Polmex, if you're playing someone as smart as you are there is no way you can win these two. I HATE to say it, but it just doesn't work. Anyway I realized I had not posted in this topic yet... bad Luigiking. Anyway, when we start the next character expect a wall of text from me.

 

[Locuan]

Updated, new rotation!

 

[Pompi]

if you need some help i can always ask in the other forums like i did with d3 and mk hope those posts helped

 

[A2ZOMG]

G&W:
65/35 IMO.
G&W's B-air if kept well spaced will effectively snuff almost every reliable approach Luigi has. D-tilt is also very effective at stopping approaches. Note that it clashes with the Tornado on the ground.

Fireball doesn't really do much since he can just hit through it.

What's especially crazy about G&W is his ability to juggle, which is better than Luigi's, in fact he's so good at juggling, good G&W players will go for a U-throw just to keep you above them. Luigi does not have amazing DI, but G&W does. G&W's attacks like N-air, U-air, and Up-B make it extremely difficult to get back to the ground without taking hits.

G&W is also a character that is good at edgeguarding Luigi. If Luigi comes in from below, he eats a D-air and risks getting stagespiked. From above is the way to go, although it should be noted that G&W's Up-B carries him very high allowing him to control a huge zone when edgeguarding.

The key for Luigi in this matchup is to get close, cause if you can get inside G&W's range, he sucks since most of his attacks are a bit on the slow side except for Jab and D-tilt. If you can get a grab on him, keep in mind G&W's low weight means he takes a bit more hitstun from attacks, so D-throw to U-air will reliably combo on him if he tries to attack back (for him to escape, he will probably midair jump and air dodge IIRC, I think he might be able to Up-B too, but I can't remember).

ROB:
6/4 or 55/45 ROB
ROB has camping, so you have to approach. He has a lot of range, which is annoying to get past, but he's also a huge target. You have juggling on him and KO power, so if he doesn't play carefully, he doesn't last nearly as long as he would like in this matchup.

However, ROB also has an easy time edgeguarding Luigi due to his ability to literally hover anywhere You only get one Cyclone, so use it with care. And keep in mind his throws get you off the stage 99.9% of the time, and he has huge grab range.

 

[hippiedude92]

I'll agree with A2 matchup numbers and maybe some analysis stuffs. I'll post maybe next 2 days. Schools gay

 

[ALiAsVee]

Eh, just a quickie to add on to ROB because I'm not in the mood for a wall of text. Watch his laser when your off stage and trying to recover high to prevent landing on the edge. Luigi isn't too fast in his recovery save UpB so its not too hard to snipe him. I'd say air dodge it, but smart ROBs pressure you to airdodge which can be punished.

Meh, thats situational, just do the airdodge. Usually his laser animation will last too long to retaliate in the air anyway so you just have to be careful using it near the stage.

Then again, his recovery is kind of slow too, so spam those fireballs and pressure him to airdodge. Thats my fireball game in a nutshell: either take the fireball, or airdodge and take Luigi's foot to your face. So many people prefer the foot.

 

[Delta_BP26]

G&W
60:40/65:35

This is, without a doubt, one of Luigi's tougher match-ups. But while the G&W mains laugh at us, we can approach the situation seriously. This match-up is winnable. Very winnable.

First of all, let's see what G&W has. G&W is Luigi, but better. G&W has better aerial moves (!!!), stronger smashes (!!!), a more reliable recovery, disjointed hitboxes (!!!) and phantom hitboxes (!!!). What does this mean? G&W is better at what he does than Luigi, and he has extras to top it off. What. What the ****.

G&W has his gangster smashes, but what really matter here are his air moves. The Gayman will truly be the Gayman with the B-Air. Personally, I've struggled with the U-Air, which, at high percents, can juggle you like hell due to Luigi's floatiness. Then there's the credit card, which makes for an excellent killer. And the B-Air, which is Luigi's biggest problem. And then, the D-Air, which, IIRC, is candidate for the best air move in the game. His N-Air will pose serious problems too.

Let's focus on the B-Air. This is the Gayman's nuclear bomb. This is his sword. His gun. His soul. And we all know how much Luigi hates it. Why is it such a big problem? Well, let's see. This goddam thing is his approach, retreat, offense, spacing, OOS option, defense, anti-projectile camp answer, and most importantly, Luigi's bane of existence. Luigi has no answer to this B-Air. The D-Air is a very fast stall and fall with invisible hitboxes. The N-Air is easy damage, spacing, and hit and run camping. The U-Air is a method of stalling, spacing, and time to think. The credit card is his finisher.

But... but now what? We can only pray, young one. That Luigi will be spared an evil snapping turtle. "But wait! Let me wait for the lag, no matter how small, to create an opening and counterattack!" I thought so too, young one. But you see, like the Gayman's U-Smash, F-Smash, and I think the F-Air (credit card of evil transactions), the B-Air has something called a phantom hitbox. "What's that?" A phantom is the ghost of a human being that once existed on the earth. A phantom hitbox is sort of the same. It's a hitbox that exists even though the attack is over. Due to this, and the very little lag after his B-Air, the hitbox will always be there. This is, quite literally, a wall. And Luigi, unfortunately, doesn't have the means of taking it down.

"Holy ****! No one can get past that!" Wrong. See, other characters have this thing called range. As a Luigi main, you may ask, "WTFH IS RANGE?!!?!" It's the length of an attack, as in distance. Characters with this "range" thing can cancel his B-Air because even though it has so much priority, things like Ike's F-Air just go right past it and hit the Gayman. "So Luigi is screwed." Basically.

The only thing we can do is space. Luigi has a problem with spacing, so you'll have to watch out. Carefully use your B-Airs, Fireballs, and the occasional N-Air, so that the hitbox only barely touches him. Hopefully you'll get some hits in. If a Gayman buckets your Fireball, don't let him get away with it! Run like hell and SHORYUUUUUUKEN that ***! The Gayman's big disadvantage is his weight, and Luigi's "smorgasboard" of KO options should help you get in some easy kills.

Play defensively. This is one of his easier defensive match-ups, so get used to fighting G&W's and use the battle experience as a way to prepare for more devastating defensive match-ups, like Marth or MK (lol).

I hope I've helped.

 

[A2ZOMG]

As for the B-air, if you get hit by it, what you're supposed to do is SDI up and towards him, THEN N-air him. In fact if you know he's going to B-air, it's definitely possible to exploit this as an opportunity to get inside his range. Getting inside G&W's range I stress is the most important factor for Luigi winning this matchup, since you do outspeed him.

A good G&W player will mainly use the B-air when they are sure they can shield poke you, or to stop an approach. If you have a full shield, you won't get shield poked by the B-air, and hopefully you will be able to take advantage of the slight lag G&W does have when he lands with the B-air. I'm not sure if Luigi slides too much when hit by the B-air though.

G&W's D-air isn't the best move in the game, but it does **** Luigi's recovery if he tries to go for the ledge, and it ***** attempts to juggle him if he's given breathing room.

Since he has better DI than Luigi, he can theoretically do an infinite U-air stall on Luigi fairly easily. It's gay enough that you can't punish him with any attacks while he does that since he will punish you back with something else, but what is EVEN GAYER is that the wind effect also unstales his other attacks too at the same time.

 

[ALiAsVee]

As for the B-air, if you get hit by it, what you're supposed to do is SDI up and towards him, THEN N-air him. In fact if you know he's going to B-air, it's definitely possible to exploit this as an opportunity to get inside his range. Getting inside G&W's range I stress is the most important factor for Luigi winning this matchup, since you do outspeed him.

A good G&W player will mainly use the B-air when they are sure they can shield poke you, or to stop an approach. If you have a full shield, you won't get shield poked by the B-air, and hopefully you will be able to take advantage of the slight lag G&W does have when he lands with the B-air. I'm not sure if Luigi slides too much when hit by the B-air though.

G&W's D-air isn't the best move in the game, but it does **** Luigi's recovery if he tries to go for the ledge, and it ***** attempts to juggle him if he's given breathing room.

Since he has better DI than Luigi, he can theoretically do an infinite U-air stall on Luigi fairly easily. It's gay enough that you can't punish him with any attacks while he does that since he will punish you back with something else, but what is EVEN GAYER is that the wind effect also unstales his other attacks too at the same time.

Another point to emphasize is that Luigi slides less from b-air when you shield in the middle of it, rather than at the turtle head part of it. This is just another plus to playing inside GW i know from personal experience.

 

[Delta_BP26]

Another point to emphasize is that Luigi slides less from b-air when you shield in the middle of it, rather than at the turtle head part of it. This is just another plus to playing inside GW i know from personal experience.

That.

Is how I beat my buddies in friendlies when the get all Gayman on me. Then end it with Luigi's excellent OOS options (Seriously, it's just his traction that holds him back).

 

[A2ZOMG]

Don't count on that. I do acknowledge that many G&W's get sloppy with their spacing, but against ones who aren't sloppy, they won't take the chance that they might get shieldgrabbed if their opponent completely shields the B-air. If he's half decent at spacing it, the best you'll be able to get on him OOS is probably a Jab or F-tilt or maybe a Tornado.

Assuming you are inside his range, Jab or F-tilt a lot, or if you're close enough, then grab or D-smash or U-tilt -> follow ups, since that should probably outspeed most of what he will do.

 

[kigbariom]

I went against a pretty good G&W in the finals of a local tourney

 

[Delta_BP26]

Mind giving some input?

 

[hippiedude92]

Well personally this discussion doesnt get any things done while our wifi friendlies get moar discussion sadly -_-

anyways i got this from a random thread and im pretty sure theres a few mistakes and its lil outdated so point out my mistakes awayyy

WOW. Funny how I was just playing a ROB a few minutes ago. Nice competitive matchs though <3. Alright so, I'll start Rob since I just played him, the Snake is in matchupdiscussion so check there first.

For this matchup it's about Luigi's offense vs ROB's offense.

You'll want to keep it moderately aggressive, in this matchup because you don't want Rob have space to snipe you with a lazer and gyro. If your getting tilted too much on the ground, it means your either 1) rushing too much 2) lacking shieldgrabs/powershields 3) <--both

You'll want to approach Rob with a SH fireball to a tornado since it rushs through him and keeps him moving. You'll want a Dair to Nair combo and upairs to combo him. Also Rob wasn't really much of a combo person. Hes more of a hardcore hitter and sniper. You can break his combos with a Nair. Aggressive is your friend, don't let up, don't let him have space, dont let him snipe. Also, if your going face to face in the air, try not to get hit I forgot which hit, Nair (?) because it's hits like 45 degree angle.

To kill Rob, is not that hard really, if hes offstage, you have him there, keep throwing fireballs/Bairs until he uses up alot of his gas, if hes at a high % for Bair stage spike as it 100% ko varying on the %.

Also if RoB is directly below you, dont try to do Dair or falling Nair plz -__-. You'll get upsmashd to heaven. Keep it air game, if your going on the defense ( which I dont think you should really do considering Rob 's better at camping) throw retreating aerials (fairs/Bairs) lots of fireballs and look for this openings.


Quick tidbit, fireballs > nades (sets them off) / nikias ( cancels it) / land mine ( cancels it )

 

[kigbariom]

he was kind of new to G&W, but he was good in the air and he was really fast with his grabs. He was also hard to get off the stage. I used my up-b more than usual because G&W is so light, and I fought close to him, came in w/ b-down and d-smashed and tried a d-tilt >trip> up-b combo. Ended up winning with a nair at 114%. He uses his bair very well, keeps me from going after him, but he lacked any edge guarding with the manhole. He would stop my down -b with manhole, so i used SH >dair which worked nicely.

 

[Locuan]

Alright so no more input? I don't wanna write and update this with not so many info on the matchups...