Luigi Matchup Discussion Thread: (Update: Wario Discussion)

[hippiedude92]

Ehhh... I think the problem is the knowledge or the activity on this... Matchups should be the MAIN activity if anything... in any board because it helps obviously how to fight (insert here).... NOT Wifi ladders >.> Maybe another reason why our meta-game isn't taking a steeper step.

I mean I'd help Locuan, but like ya know >.>

You've seen that ike thread how it turned out. We should have things like that although its abit chaotic with the whole discussion just the numbers X:X >.>

 

[Locuan]

Ehhh... I think the problem is the knowledge or the activity on this... Matchups should be the MAIN activity if anything... in any board because it helps obviously how to fight (insert here).... NOT Wifi ladders >.> Maybe another reason why our meta-game isn't taking a steeper step.

I mean I'd help Locuan, but like ya know >.>

You've seen that ike thread how it turned out. We should have things like that although its abit chaotic with the whole discussion just the numbers X:X >.>

Yes, no input how will this work? But your right, matchup threads (in a way) are supposed to help players trying to find info on how to face X character. Probably, we should just make those threads, I think we will have more input using that method.

 

[Vect0r]

I'm pretty sure Luigi has an even match against G&W.

But for ROB, I'm not sure.

 

[hippiedude92]

I'm pretty sure Luigi has an even match against G&W.

But for ROB, I'm not sure.

I'm pretty sure you were being sacrastic no? *turtlerape*

 

[Locuan]

It's a hard matchup for Luigi not as hard as others but still very challenging.

@Hippie:

Lol

 

[hippiedude92]

I lol'd too. But meh. Should we get other boards to step in like Ike boards with ike discussion? >.>

 

[WIGI]

i just don;lt play7 any g+w or robs, otehrwise id input

 

[Locuan]

I lol'd too. But meh. Should we get other boards to step in like Ike boards with ike discussion? >.>

Yes, I think we should do so with the ROB and G&W boards, right now I'll be busy for the day so I could post tomorrow but if anyone wants to have the head start your more than welcome.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

We need more info on MK matchup.

sorry its late, but i don't check smashboards much.

anyway, the following can be punished by an upb if you powershield

tornado, nair, dair

the following can be punished by an upb if you do a running powershield
fair, bair, glide attack, edge of the dair

you have to do the upb during the attack, right after the powershield, its hard to learn, but it can hurt mk a lot

 

[hippiedude92]

Bumped because the luigi boards are too dumb enough to know how to do matchup discussions.

 

[FlipX]

Since people aren't exactly raving about the G&W/ROB discussion. Would someone mind giving me some info on fighting falcos?

 

[LuigiKing]

Bumped because the luigi boards are too dumb enough to know how to do matchup discussions.

Haha, hippie comon now, use proper grammar when insulting our intelligence XD

That aside, I haven't played against any pro G&Ws and have only played against one ROB that is any good, so I am sort of hesitant to post things about either of them. All my tournament losses are to MKs, so D3/GW/ROB/ are out of my area of expertise. However I will be able to post on Marth, Falco, and Snake. I'll save Marth&Snake for later since technically we aren't even discussing Falco yet, but someone asked and I'm super bored right now.

FALCO

First thing you need to know is to not be afraid of Falco's chaingrab. From my experience you can nair right out of it if you mash fast enough, which means he just traded his 7% throw for a 14% nair, which means free damage for you. Falco's lasers are sort of a problem for Luigi, since they pass right through his fireballs and you can only scuttle under lasers that have been short hopped. First thing when dealing with this is, always ban final destination, always. Stages that have uneven ground (brinstar, corneria) are great to counterpick against Falco, but you can always go with a standard Luigi stage if you want (battlefield, yoshi)... Put shortly platforms and uneven ground are good in this one.

When trying to recover against Falco as Luigi, I usually use my entire rising tornado as soon as possible for two reasons. 1) Get out of the way of the lasers 2) You don't want to be caught dead rising under Falco, you're asking to get spiked. Falco's aerials are waaay laggy compared to Luigi's, so he can be crazy easy to combo, just watch out for the dair on occasion. Try to avoid touching the ground, as Falco pretty much ***** Luigi here. I use more full hops than short hops in this matchup oddly enough.

As far as KOing goes, Falco is a little above average weight if I recall. His recovery is predictable, so when he is straight off the stage ready to illusion just spam fireballs to knock him out of it. Falco is also really easy to gimp with Luigi's bair, like... really easy. Uppercut will kill at around 60% and Fsmash around 80%.

Thats all I got.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

Ill give a bit of insight for both falco, ROB, and GaW

I haven't lost to many falcos with some of them being very good

Luigi's Strengths
No Laser’s hit Luigi…..Crawl goes under even silent laser’s
Better killing moves that falco
Not that easy to chain grab against Falco
Down b helps approach
Can “combo” easily with up tilt and down throw combos
Do NOT spam fireballs
Down air and back air helps with gimping
Up B combos moderately easy
For stages, I recommend any type of curved stage that does not have walls such as Lylat Cruise. I do NOT recommend platform stages such as Battlefield due to spacing or wall stages such as Corneria. Play stages that aren’t that big and either ban FD or Battlefield. I personally prefer banning battlefield due to platforms and It is easier to gimp Falco.

Falco's Strengths
Chain grab but harder to do vs. Luigi
Down B actually helps vs. Luigi due to Luigi’s traction
Aerials
Down air gimps Luigi’s recovery
Playing defensively/campy is easy for Falco
FD and Battlefield are both good counters

Consensus:
Overall this matchup to me is either 55-45 or 60-40 Luigi, it is way too difficult for Falco to kill Luigi. Predict his recovery and predict his recovery. Just be careful and you will be fine.

Game and Watch: I have played great ones online and somewhat good ones offline, anyway

Luigi’s Strengths
Use Down B sometimes to approach
Down throw will knock Game and Watch to the ground, anticipate tech’s or get up attacks
Up B kills at incredibly low percentages even with DI
Upward Angled and even Downward Angled F-Smash can be used to hamper shield well
Reverse Down Smash is a quick kill
N-air helps
Back air can help
Can overwhelm game and watch’s shield just as well as GaW can overwhelm yours
Final Destination helps, Pick a Large stage because Game and Watch kills way too easily. Platform stages are also great to get out of aerials. Personally, Pick Battlefield or FD. Ban Congo Jungle for CP’s and Yoshi’s for first stage.

Game and Watch’s Strengths
Better recovery easily
Back air, down smash, and f-smash are difficult to be abused
Luigi’s traction helps this because Luigi will move after shielding
Down air goes through many of Luigi’s moves
Can Bucket Fireballs
Smashville, Yoshi’s Island, and any small counterpick. Anything with a low ceiling, I see most of them countering with Congo Jungle and smashville. Ban Battlefield or FD.

Consensus:
Overall, Game and Watch has too much priority and Luigi’s traction really hampers his chances of winning. Down Smash really helps and Up B Combos really help. Don’t Fireball too much. 60-40 Game and Watch and this ratio is not better for GaW because Luigi can kill GaW easily.

Rob: I have played vs. DullRazor online + a whole lot of other R.O.B.’s online or offline. I personally like this matchup

Luigi’s Strengths
Back air vs. Rob’s Recovery
N-Air helps a lot
F-Smash really helps
Reverse down smash = Major Win
Combos with up tilt and n-air
Up B combos = easy to do
Fireballs help with camping rob’s
Down tilt trip combos
Recommended stages: Green Green’s if allowed or Haliberd for CP’s, ban FD because its too large, Smashville is normal, Battlefield is fine if used to matchup,

Rob’s Strengths
Recovery
Glide Toss from Gyro into F-Smash = ****
Rob Laser = epic
F-air into down air gimp
Good moves vs. Luigi’s recovery
N-air
Up Smash > Luigi’s down air
Best stages: Frigate Orpheon, Luigi’s Mansion for CP’s, ban Yoshi’s or unless your R.O.B. is good on platform stages, ban battlefield, use Final if possible for first stage.

Consensus:
I personally recommend spamming back air vs. R.O.B. Try not to approach R.O.B. from above due to Up Smash. Fireball if he runs away and use n-air a lot. Down tilt to trips and down throw combos. F-Smash and Up B combos kill well and its easy to get out of Rob’s down smash and your down smash is great. This match comes down to who can get that last hit. I believe Luigi has a slight advantage because it’s easier for him to combo.

 

[kigbariom]

Good Falco advice, what is silent laser

 

[Locuan]

Bumped because the luigi boards are too dumb enough to know how to do matchup discussions.

Hippie knows how to get matchup discussion going (He knows his **** lol)

Either way keep it coming guys we need a good matchup thread.

 

[hippiedude92]

im just really lazy. of course i dont want to do all the work or locuan doesnt either or whatnot, ill start giving input as soon this thing gets more activie, and awesome input. every input still counts :/

edit ban that fkin stage jungle japes and FD. espically japes because falco just has too much of upper hand there and luigi does poor sh*t there omfg.

 

[WIGI]

that post was uiber helpful for the 3 match up thanks

 

[Locuan]

im just really lazy. of course i dont want to do all the work or locuan doesnt either or whatnot, ill start giving input as soon this thing gets more activie, and awesome input. every input still counts :/

edit ban that fkin stage jungle japes and FD. espically japes because falco just has too much of upper hand there and luigi does poor sh*t there omfg.

The problem is that the matchup discussion has to be a community driven thread in order to have accurate knowledge of matchups not just having just two giving their own insight without any feedback or other insight whatsoever.

Anyways awesome info on the matchups and keep them coming.

 

[LuigiKing]

I would really like to talk about fun matchups one of these days. We haven't gone in depth on:

Diddy
Wario
Lucario
Pit
Tink
Kirby
Wolf

Really though, I think this would get more support if we talked about some good/matchups against not gay characters. Just saying.

 

[Delta_BP26]

Yeah. Don't start from top tier to low. Go from fun to boring to fun. Personally, I prefer the air love fighting against Kirby, Diddy, and Lucario.

 

[Locuan]

Look one thing is fun and another is reality, I decided to go with matchups in order of tiers because this is what you will most likely face in tournaments. What does that mean? The possibility of facing this:

Diddy
Wario
Lucario
Pit
Tink
Kirby
Wolf

to facing this:

Snake
Dedede
Game and Watch
MK
Falco
etc.

are less than likely. Of course, there is bound to be one of the above mentioned characters in tournaments and you might face him or her but the numbers outweigh each other.

I formatted the thread in this manner so that people could retain the most and have the info on top tiers quickly so that when in a tournament they would have the required info on the characters that they would most likely face.

Look those matchups are fun and all but again they are not what you would most likely face in tournaments.

I'm trying to be realistic.

Going from fun to boring to fun? Well in a way that could "balance it out" but if you think of it you would miss some info on a character that is probably going to be a pain in the neck before the "fun" character.

If you want to go ahead with the idea well then PM me about it and I'll consider it.

Sorry for being so harsh but reality strikes back.

 

[Delta_BP26]

I meant after you get the Sacred 7 out of the way. It'd be a pain not having them covered in place of, say, CF.

 

[Locuan]

I meant after you get the Sacred 7 out of the way. It'd be a pain not having them covered in place of, say, CF.

Ah you should have stated that since the beginning it completely changes the meaning of what you had said before lol. Well if that is the case then I'll consider it greatly since it could prove to be effective.

 

[Delvro]

I personally have a big problem with ROBs since they are so good at keeping you away from them.

The gyro isn't so bad, running A or Nair to pick it up and you get to glide toss.

Be careful when approaching, shield grabbing and ROB's wtf Dsmash are both waiting for you. Fireballs help, try to mix it up (as always).

ROBs have VERY good spacing moves. Ftilt, Fair, Bair all come out fast and are tough to punish.

Tornado to close in from fireball range, NEVER from farther away. SHAD is useful, Bair approaches are mildly useful but can get punished with an Ftilt if they see it coming.

At close range, ALL the ROBs I play, (3 good ones) abuse spotdodging like it's going out of style. AAA combo should get through it, but it never does for me, so I SH NNair instead... with good reflexes you can get it out before the Dsmash comes.

In the air, Luigi wants to be below ROB at all times. Fastfalling is your friend. ROBs will use Nair to punish airdodging, and Fairs + Uairs to outrange you

 

[Locuan]

I decided to go with matchup analysis with one character instead of two because one, seeming as running a matchup thread with little input while working with two characters was hard enough.

We will restart with the G&W matchup.

SO REOPENED MATCHUP THREAD

3, 2, 1 DISCUSS!

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I disagree with the MK match-up. It's 6/4 imo. There's something I learned from Inferno Omni, when he explained the Kirby/MK match-up, that you should aways go below MK as Kirby. Just get him up in the air and always run underneath him. Kirbys utilt will always beat MKs dair. Luigi seems to be the same, either utilt or usmash seem to get through the dair if you just stay below MK.

I also tried something, although Idk yet how it works since I haven't faced many MKs lately but I like to do SHdairs at a ~45% angle before them, followed by a nair. It seems to reliably beat the Nado, Shuttle Loop and SH fair. The only option left would be an angled ftilt (upwards) but idk yet the details. I will use Luigi more vs MK to see how it works but from what I've seen Luigi has all the tools a character needs to beat MK.

On a side note: I think he's about even with Falco...either 5/5 or 55/45 Luigis favour.

 

[hippiedude92]

Gheb brings back the dead thread =O. Good info tho. Sounds like as if we're fighting a Marth.

Edit: Upair > Mk's dair possibly? But 6/4 seems too much. Luigi looks rarely he has the tools for it.

A problem with luigi is approach and his defense since Mk is always the aggressive pressuring luigi everywhere :/.

A well spaced Ftilt/dtilt can **** luigi. IIRC, either ftilt or the dtilt clanked or outprioritized most of luigi's ground options or his tornado.

\
On a side note: I think he's about even with Falco...either 5/5 or 55/45 Luigis favour.

I thought the same until I saw Sethlon's flashy Falco lmao. But why do you think that anyways? Reasons?

 

[kigbariom]

I feel like I roll a lot more in this matchup, I don't know why but It works for me, I always roll around the torch f-smash and do my own f-smash.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

A problem with luigi is approach and his defense since Mk is always the aggressive pressuring luigi everywhere :/.

A well spaced Ftilt/dtilt can **** luigi. IIRC, either ftilt or the dtilt clanked or outprioritized most of luigi's ground options or his tornado.[/QUOTE]

I never had that problem. You just have to play really gay. I usually let him hit my shield, if he's going agressive...then Luigi slides backwards (unless you Powershield, which gives you a free move/grab usually) and can just Fireball to prevent a follow up or a SH Nair which beats every move from my experience.

The problem with MKs spacing is that he has no projectile. If he tries to keep you at range you just Fireball him to get him closer. I also think that a Powershielded Dsmash is a guaranteed upB for Luigi.

I thought the same until I saw Sethlon's flashy Falco lmao. But why do you think that anyways? Reasons?

Aside from the obvious "no CG", there are other reasons: Falco has a hard time landing a KO, since Luigis weight is above average. The weight/KO power goes clearly to Luigi. Idk much about Luigis combos but utilt chains can deal like ~30%? Luigi dominates Falco in the air, which limits Falcos options to ground game, which isn't much more than SHL/SHDL.
I don't know but Luigi can't crouch under the laser right? I wish he could =/

 

[hippiedude92]

A powershield from a shuttle loop is a fer sure upb to the face. Mk pretty much dies early to a upb at like 45% or something, all it takes is a Dair Nair, some utilts and couple of upairs if hes poor at DIing and such then comes a shoryuken if you land it lol. But yea I know what your talking about in playing gay as possible.

Usually I'm throwing out fireball to ftilt walls on the defense until I look for a opening. Majority of the time, if you spam fireballs and Mk gets annoyed he'll tornado his way there which is antipatied easily and you can just go for a shield and punish accordily.

I've never really had problem with Mk's ftilt, but his dtilt is annoying. More annoying then Marth's. Espically since if he trips he slides away to reset the situation and the working your way in problem x_o but bah the lack of Mk experience is hard-breaking.

As for Falco, I thought the same too with 50/50 or 45/55 viceversa thing but then when I saw how fast Sethlon (lolflashy falco) I wanted to change my mind. But hence flashiest is so entertaining. From what I hear, or experience, Nair can cut through the CG. But Falco's can just wait and run in for a CG or a pivot grab or something. Aside from that luigi does win in killing and maybe racking up damage?

Also for the lazers problem (annoying as hell) you can't crawl T.T only if they SH laser it though. But if they do grounded or silent lasering, then he can't crawl but SH his way there. Though most Falco's I fight love to to SHL then shine your face for breathing room x_o. Lol annoying as hell.

 

[Locuan]

This is good info Gheb I'll read it more in depth later and add to the front page the info that is necessary.

Ok so let's start with the Game and Watch matchup:

GW's strengths in the matchup:

Luigi's strengths in the matchup:

GW's weaknesses in the matchup:

Luigi's weaknesses in the matchup:

 

[CR4SH]

The problem with gw, and most of luigi's bad matchups, is he has quick, effective "GTFO!" attacks.

Luigi, as you know, spends the entire game, working very hard to get inside the opponent. The closer you are to someone, the closer you are to winning. Enter dtilt. Enter Ftilt. Even if you shield them, they get you out to a manageable (for gw) range. At about 3-4 paces, you're right where he wants you.

When you're in this range you have one big advantage to go along with the disjointed disadvantage. Landing lag. All of gw's aerials have alot of lag when they whiff. If you can space yourself right, you can roll behind any of them and punish him for it with ftilt, dsmash, jab, etc. This isn't terribly common though. More often than not you're going to have to roll away and punish with fireball or tornado. Aerials aren't a bad thing to throw out, considering they're the backbone of your game. However, you need to keep in mind that your position of opportunity is on the ground. You can't AD through turtle or fishbowl. Come to think of it, you cant spot dodge them either, and shield is iffy.

Keep in mind your kill%s. UPb kills around 40. Fsmash^ kills around 73. Fsmash kills around 90. Take advantage of that.

Edit: MK luigi is nowhere NEAR 35:65, more like 85:15.

Reason 1: MK gimps the **** out of luigi. If you've used your DJ and you're anywhere off the stage, forget it, you might as well give up. If you havn't and you're at a range where you have to use the missle, you're dead just about 100% of the time.
Reason 2: You (almost) nothing in your arsenal that beats ANYTHING he does. Plus his outspeeds everything you have. He does not have to anticipate you, he simply has to watch and react.
rapeface.

 

[Locuan]

Yes MK can gimp Luigi but you have to be careful while you play, if you know how to manipulate the matchup you won't always be having to recover.

Second reason you posted crash:

What? Honestly you have had very bad experiences against MK, time your moves:

• Luigi's Dsmash goes out at frame 5 just as MK's
  
• MK's f and dtilt have their hitboxes out in frame 3 or 4.
  
• Luigi's bair is out at frame 6-16 while MK's is out 7-8
  
• Luigi's Nair come's out at frame 3-13 which MK's aerials like uair and dair go out on frame 2-3.
  
• Luigi's jab's go out at frame's 2-3.

While normally you can see that MK out-speeds you, because of his quicker aerial speed and overall faster moves, you can still see that Luigi has moves that their hit boxes come out rather quickly and you can still have a go against MK's.

MK will still clearly have a matchup advantage, but still you post this matchup as being impossible.

 

[Delvro]

Yes MK can gimp Luigi but you have to be careful while you play, if you know how to manipulate the matchup you won't always be having to recover.

Second reason you posted crash:

What? Honestly you have had very bad experiences against MK, time your moves:

• Luigi's Dsmash goes out at frame 5 just as MK's
  
• MK's f and dtilt have their hitboxes out in frame 3 or 4.
  
• Luigi's bair is out at frame 6-16 while MK's is out 7-8
  
• Luigi's Nair come's out at frame 3-13 which MK's aerials like uair and dair go out on frame 2-3.
  
• Luigi's jab's go out at frame's 2-3.

While normally you can see that MK out-speeds you, because of his quicker aerial speed and overall faster moves, you can still see that Luigi has moves that their hit boxes come out rather quickly and you can still have a go against MK's.

MK will still clearly have a matchup advantage, but still you post this matchup as being impossible.

There are many more important reasons that a good Metaknight absolutely destroys Luigi than the frame that hitboxes come out. In my opinion, they are:

1) Punishability. Luigi thrives on it. But Metaknight's attacks all have great range, and little to no ending lag. It is nearly impossible to successfully bait and counter Metaknight save for a few specific moves (like maybe his Up-b) but he has so many other options that it's no problem to simply stop using a move or two to prevent countering.

2) Range. Luigi can overcome range disadvantages by abusing other characters' punishability with their long range attacks, or by baiting. Metaknight is more resistant to these tactics than most other characters in the Brawl roster, so a Luigi has to be creative to find a way inside Metaknight. And by creative, I mean make one little mistake and you're toast. =P

 

[Locuan]

Crash stated:

Reason 2: You (almost) nothing in your arsenal that beats ANYTHING he does. Plus his outspeeds everything you have. He does not have to anticipate you, he simply has to watch and react.

That is why I used my previous example.

You stated that if you make a little mistake and you're toast, the same way goes for any character, if let's say you are facing an MK and he makes a mistake you can go in and punish.

And yes you have to be creative, if you keep on doing the same things over and over again you will get predictable and you will make the MK's, or opponent's for that matter, job way simpler.

 

[CR4SH]

You stated that if you make a little mistake and you're toast, the same way goes for any character, if let's say you are facing an MK and he makes a mistake you can go in and punish.

It's just really not that way with luigi vs. a (good) MK though. You don't have to make a mistake to be punished, you really don't. And if the MK does, 8 times out of ten, you can't do anything about it. Not big mistakes mind you, those you can always punish no matter who what or where, but little mistakes by mk just get compensated for most of the time.

MK's moves are such that, he can wait for you to attack, most of the time, and just slice you right through it. He doesn't have to expect an attack, most of the time he just has to watch you do it. That's a massive disadvantage. Ftilt, fair, dair, tornado, **** the **** out of luigi.

Edit: Just for a point of reference, and to know where I'm coming from. I'm taking most of my matchup knowlege from local mk's, and lots of friendlies with OS' MK. I can take his rob to the last stock most of the time, but when he goes MK he can seriously 3 stock me with 15% damage.

 

[hippiedude92]

I could have SWORE OOS Nair from luigi and OOS upb from shuttle loop's WILL save your facking life in this matchup. I'm so sure of it.

Oh and GaW matchup dtilt camping is gay.

 

[Locuan]

MK's moves are such that, he can wait for you to attack, most of the time, and just slice you right through it. He doesn't have to expect an attack, most of the time he just has to watch you do it. That's a massive disadvantage. Ftilt, fair, dair, tornado, **** the **** out of luigi.

What about not attacking and letting MK come to you? What about playing the same game MK plays?

Edit: Just for a point of reference, and to know where I'm coming from. I'm taking most of my matchup knowlege from local mk's, and lots of friendlies with OS' MK. I can take his rob to the last stock most of the time, but when he goes MK he can seriously 3 stock me with 15% damage.

I know where you're coming from, I know that you have plenty of tournament experience etc.

 

[CR4SH]

What about not attacking and letting MK come to you? What about playing the same game MK plays?

Generally he gets a % advantage then waits. 8 minutes expire (in theory) and he wins.

In practice, he's either worse than you, gets bored and comes in to **** you. Because MK has the best approach in the game, and luigi can't do a god****ed thing about it. Or he's better than you, and you get bored of losing one way; decide to lose the other way. I.E. Approach and get screwed.

MK is offensive by nature, there aren't too many characters he can just sit in one spot and have the advantage over them. Luigi is one of them.

P.S. Fireballs get you tornado'd every single time.


Edit: The reason I think this isn't a 100:0 matchup. Tripping, misfires and general human error (including hubris).

Another edit: While playing OS he brought up the fact that TheMann has beaten his MK. I don't know if that's bold evidence against me, evidence that OS didn't know the matchup at that point, or general ******* around in friendlies. However, it ought to be known. Also, the mann is way ****ing better than I am, and if he calls bull**** on me, I'll respect that.

 

[hippiedude92]

****ing lol @ themann part roflmao.

no fireballs DOES NOT get ***** by tornado. hell, if it doesnt rise, it'll hit him outta his tornado state. if you spam fireballs in a correct spaced manner, he'll be forced to go tornado and you have enough time to shield the whole godam thing, once hes done tornadoing, run for his *** before he gets to the ground, shoryuken him and hope you dont lose ****!!!!