Data Mah0ne's Stuff about Puff

[Mahone]

STREAMING!!!!

http://www.twitch.tv/m4h0n3

 

[Keblerelf]

A rising sh uair can hit through the platforms on battlefield.

 

[hungrybox]

Hmm...

Falco matchup. If I have some time I'll write it up.

I'll write it based off PP and Lambchops experience.

 

[Krynxe]

That'd be greatly appreciated hbox. Don't forget to note the habits of less experienced falco players as well, if you can.

 

[idea]

hoooly **** i got ***** by luigi.

went to hope4 last weekend, lost to the only two luigis there, lol. vudujin and abate. apparently i'm terrible at that matchup...quite seriously considering practicing falco more consistently or picking up sheik just to deal with him. and to cover any other weird *** <high tier matchups i don't know.

edit:

how i go fast?

videos? i could try to guess what you're doing wrong but it's easier if you have something to show us

 

[Krynxe]

Sorry, but I don't really have anything. I've only gone to 3 regionals, and I'm still an up-and-comer. The only match I have of myself recorded is one set of me in losers doubles with a high teammate. It was also recorded on live stream so the quality is bad, and I was playing for too lax so I did a lot of stupid things. That was only the case for doubles though. No johns though, I'll definitely try harder next time and try to get some matches recorded.

 

[Republican0fHeaven]

Yeah Pittsburgh has some good *** luigi's. Abate used to live in NJ i think, but now lives like 15min from me and I play Vudu every week. Puff can definitely win the matchup though. Vudu says himself he does really well against people that don't know luigi. It doesn't take too long to learn the mu. If he grabs you he's gonna combo you no matter how you DI. So stay crouched. You can duck under his grab and rest. At low percent you can CC his sliding ftilt or any smash (other than dsmash) or grab and rest. So then he'll approach with a sliding downsmash which you can rest OOS. You can in fact rest a lot of his moves OOS if he approaches with speed (otherwise the force of the attack on your shield will slide him backward). He also doesn't punish rests very hard. His upB isn't very good unless you're at high percent. Don't approach if he's above you cause of the dair. And vudu is really good at getting ledge invincibility into an aerial so I try to stay away from the ledge. Follow luigi super far offstage cause he can recover from anywhere. He's not dead til he's dead. You can also sometimes learn their wd motions and sneak in a fsmash.

Also Tekk, I would love to see the Samus mu written out. I am uber excited about getting more up to date guides up on the puff boards. Mahone, don't even condense it. If there's a lot to learn then that will make readers better at the matchup. It'd be cool if you like organized the mu info by importance. Like, you gotta learn A, once you have A down, then you can try stuff like B, and C is stuff that you shouldn't really worry about but is like neat tricks or tips that are useful less often. Something like that.....

 

[idea]

krynxe: okay, well some shortcuts to being faster with jiggs are...
- shffl aerials instead of rising/fullhopping aerials some of the time
- wavedash, especially 1. after you space an aerial on someone's shield and 2. backward, when you expect them to approach, so they'll miss and you can grab (2. isn't so much for speed but you should do it anyway)

jigglypuff can get by a lot of the time without fastfalling so a lot of jiggs mains don't do that as much as they probably should.

r0h: okay, cool. yeah everyone i've asked has told me to crouch more. my set vs. vudu was recorded so i'll definitely post that here once it goes up. i took a game off him but i don't really know how, lol.

i guess i kept trying to hit him with aerials. if i went after him, he would wavedash out of the way and/or hit me. if i tried to hit him out of his wavedash pre-emptively, he would wait till my move ended and punish the lag. i couldn't grab him 'cause i couldn't get him to sit still in shield. so i was like "wtf do i do then =/"

also i agree, order of importance stuff is good. that'd be really helpful against characters like fox, where there are so many tricks but a lot of them are more situational.

 

[Krynxe]

Alright, noted. One problem I have is people who aren't afraid to run in though, but are good at not getting punished. Like one fox I was played constantly ran/jumped in and just shined me, I had no idea what to do because I could never get a grab any time he approached so he wasn't afraid to keep going in and I could never really space myself. Another issue I have, more so, is falcon just jumping in and throwing out a knee. Falcons hit me all the time with that, and if they don't I can't really punish them well. I'll really try to record some matches, not just for you guys but so I can analyze them myself.

 

[Massive]

Alright, noted. One problem I have is people who aren't afraid to run in though, but are good at not getting punished. Like one fox I was played constantly ran/jumped in and just shined me, I had no idea what to do because I could never get a grab any time he approached so he wasn't afraid to keep going in and I could never really space myself. Another issue I have, more so, is falcon just jumping in and throwing out a knee. Falcons hit me all the time with that, and if they don't I can't really punish them well. I'll really try to record some matches, not just for you guys but so I can analyze them myself.

I have a history of dash attacking people like that.

It resets approaches pretty effectively, especially on short-hoppy space animals or dashdancy falcons. It also sets up ledgeguards and has decent KO power at higher %s.

 

[Krynxe]

Oh, I almost never dash attack. I'll remember that then, thanks.

 

[Republican0fHeaven]

i guess i kept trying to hit him with aerials. if i went after him, he would wavedash out of the way and/or hit me. if i tried to hit him out of his wavedash pre-emptively, he would wait till my move ended and punish the lag. i couldn't grab him 'cause i couldn't get him to sit still in shield. so i was like "wtf do i do then =/"

Yeah he's faster at punishing than fox... I can space an auto cancelled bair and he'll wavedash oos and trade a usmash with my next bair if I don't wavedash in between. A luigi that wavedashes so much and so fluidly is basically waiting to punish you. I don't even try to hit him when I play unless I have him offstage or set up from landing a first aerial. I throw out safe aerials hoping that he messes up his wd approach. He's definitely hard to grab tho. The only grabs I really land are shield-grabs. I definitely let him do most of the approaching in the mu.

Alright, noted. One problem I have is people who aren't afraid to run in though, but are good at not getting punished. Like one fox I was played constantly ran/jumped in and just shined me, I had no idea what to do because I could never get a grab any time he approached so he wasn't afraid to keep going in and I could never really space myself. Another issue I have, more so, is falcon just jumping in and throwing out a knee. Falcons hit me all the time with that, and if they don't I can't really punish them well. I'll really try to record some matches, not just for you guys but so I can analyze them myself.

1. If he tends to shine after every aerial approach, learn to wait (if caught in shield)
2. Wavedash! and im starting to love the freedom of wavedashing OOS = so good

I have a history of dash attacking people like that.

It resets approaches pretty effectively, especially on short-hoppy space animals or dashdancy falcons. It also sets up ledgeguards and has decent KO power at higher %s.

For nair-heavy foxes like jman... this could be awesome if you time it right. good stuff. (don't trade with falcon's knee tho lol duh)(its also kinda risky if you do it against dash dancers, if you miss you get punished hard for dash-attack)

 

[boomrested]

Just learned how to reliably jab reset->rest. Playing puff just got a whole lot easier.

 

[RyeJew]

So I've been messing around with puff's dair lately after seeing hbox combo it into rests and grabs.

I've found that she can legitimately combo drill with several quick attacks, one being usmash. This is very useful for puff dittos considering it'll combo @ >50%, though you'll want to end up facing away so the first usmash frames will hit.

Given the multiple hits, wacky hitstun and mobility, could drill be used to poke shields and crouch cancelers better than fair/nair/bair in some situations?

EDIT: Post 69 GET!

 

[Republican0fHeaven]

So I've been messing around with puff's dair lately after seeing hbox combo it into rests and grabs.

I've found that she can legitimately combo drill with several quick attacks, one being usmash. This is very useful for puff dittos considering it'll combo @ >50%, though you'll want to end up facing away so the first usmash frames will hit.

Given the multiple hits, wacky hitstun and mobility, could drill be used to poke shields and crouch cancelers better than fair/nair/bair in some situations?

EDIT: Post 69 GET!

I have a good bit of trouble with Lcancelling her dair... also with trying to do a move after the dair cause it is 5 frames slower than a shffl'd nair/bair/fair (10 vs 15 frames?)

It's probably one of the next things Im gonna work on. IF I ever end up coming from above on a marth and scared to move horizontally cause of his fairs/fsmash, then I will drill into him and then duck or grab.

 

[Mahone]

Mahone, don't even condense it. If there's a lot to learn then that will make readers better at the matchup. It'd be cool if you like organized the mu info by importance. Like, you gotta learn A, once you have A down, then you can try stuff like B, and C is stuff that you shouldn't really worry about but is like neat tricks or tips that are useful less often. Something like that.....

Ya... i wasn't really clear, but the issue i have is that i don't know what is A and what is B... in my mind its all just sorta one gameplan i guess... if i really sat down and thought about it then i probably could... i'll try to do that later today

 

[KirbyKaze]

for some reason i could see sh nair being good vs luigi but i could also see it backfiring easily.

kyle should have just planked him

jk

 

[Blistering Speed]

for some reason i could see sh nair being good vs luigi but i could also see it backfiring easily.

I don't see the need, there are safer options.

The matchup's all about minimising any risk whatsoever and just playing gay as ****. Luigi becomes extremely limited once you just start spacing aerials over and over and over again. Even moreso if you get him in the air.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Well, if people played the MU my way there would be no risk ever because I endorse going offstage to avoid him getting under you. But that's cruel and boring so... yeah.

 

[idea]

I have a good bit of trouble with Lcancelling her dair... also with trying to do a move after the dair cause it is 5 frames slower than a shffl'd nair/bair/fair (10 vs 15 frames?)

It's probably one of the next things Im gonna work on. IF I ever end up coming from above on a marth and scared to move horizontally cause of his fairs/fsmash, then I will drill into him and then duck or grab.

dair's pretty good yeah, basically just copy hungrybox on that one, i can never hit the l-cancel either but if you can do so consistently it can be really good.

and yeah, it is good for going through shields, but if they're shielding then you should try to grab

for some reason i could see sh nair being good vs luigi but i could also see it backfiring easily.

kyle should have just planked him

jk

you'd think so, right? 'cause it stays out for a while so he might wavedash into it? but no, he would always wait me out and punish after i miss.

I don't see the need, there are safer options.

The matchup's all about minimising any risk whatsoever and just playing gay as ****. Luigi becomes extremely limited once you just start spacing aerials over and over and over again. Even moreso if you get him in the air.

if that's true then no wonder i lost =/

 

[Massive]

So I've been messing around with puff's dair lately after seeing hbox combo it into rests and grabs.

I've found that she can legitimately combo drill with several quick attacks, one being usmash. This is very useful for puff dittos considering it'll combo @ >50%, though you'll want to end up facing away so the first usmash frames will hit.

Given the multiple hits, wacky hitstun and mobility, could drill be used to poke shields and crouch cancelers better than fair/nair/bair in some situations?

EDIT: Post 69 GET!

It's SUPER HARD to L-cancel dair when you're hitting shield.
Especially when people know how to use shield DI to change your L-cancel timing.

 

[FoxLisk]

So I've been messing around with puff's dair lately after seeing hbox combo it into rests and grabs.

I've found that she can legitimately combo drill with several quick attacks, one being usmash. This is very useful for puff dittos considering it'll combo @ >50%, though you'll want to end up facing away so the first usmash frames will hit.

Given the multiple hits, wacky hitstun and mobility, could drill be used to poke shields and crouch cancelers better than fair/nair/bair in some situations?

EDIT: Post 69 GET!

its hilarious watching hbox get dair->usmash in puff dittos. when he hits the usmash he like throws his hand at his C stick and like jumps up a tiny bit.

 

[Republican0fHeaven]

its hilarious watching hbox get dair->usmash in puff dittos. when he hits the usmash he like throws his hand at his C stick and like jumps up a tiny bit.

haha I do the same thing when I usmash oos. I torque the hell outta my controller.

Well, if people played the MU my way there would be no risk ever because I endorse going offstage to avoid him getting under you. But that's cruel and boring so... yeah.

Dude I hate being in the position where I am low on jumps (<4) and heading offstage. Luigi's always wd ff to the ledge and immediately jump with an invincible dair. I often lose the ledge game to vudu. He rocks invincibility 24/7

I don't see the need, there are safer options.

The matchup's all about minimising any risk whatsoever and just playing gay as ****. Luigi becomes extremely limited once you just start spacing aerials over and over and over again. Even moreso if you get him in the air.

So long as you watch his followup nair at high percent.... and space it so he can't get a dair off if you are WoPing him

 

[Keblerelf]

for some reason i could see sh nair being good vs luigi but i could also see it backfiring easily.

I don't think it would backfire.


















It would misfire.

 

[Blistering Speed]

Dude I hate being in the position where I am low on jumps (<4) and heading offstage. Luigi's always wd ff to the ledge and immediately jump with an invincible dair. I often lose the ledge game to vudu. He rocks invincibility 24/7

It is not hard to not get ledgehop D Air'd by a Luigi, lol. Lrn2movepl0x.

 

[idea]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BR_ODny1YlE

glad this was recorded, i feel like i understand it a lot better after watching the video. but yeah, any more advice?

 

[Krynxe]

One interesting mind game is CC resting luigi's wd approach. It really makes them scared lol.

One of my close friends is a luigi main so I know quite a bit about this matchup. You really have to watch out for his dair, uair a lot because he can literally just jump above you and dair because you're both so floaty. Generally try to keep him off the ground, if he is on the ground be either far away or in his face. Usually puff tries to stay one bair space away from their opponent, but that's not the case against Luigi. Luigi approaches a ton, almost always with a WD, so to be safe you have to be at a distance where you can react to the WD's or really close where you can hit. Be patient because Luigi can't do anything unless he approaches and he always will, just don't let them do any hit and run with WDing. Mixing up between bair spacing and shffl uair when he approaches is probably the most successful method I use. Nair/jab smashes are also helpful. Avoid full hopping as much (unless you have platforms) because luigi loves to wd right under you and punish. Also don't throw out unnecessary attacks if you know they won't hit (unless they run into them) because you can't afford the lag; you need to be ready to react to every WD. Get luigi off the stage and you have an easy stock, just always be careful for misfire. I tend to approach low if they're off the stage (and obviously going to forward+b) and jump in with a bair or fair, that way he'll misfire over your head. It's usually smarter to wait where the forward+b will take Luigi though, just make sure you don't get hit by it and lose your opportunity to edge guard. Don't forget how high his up+b reaches, so if he forward+b's into the stage and is falling grab that ledge. Drop fair if necessary; if he's an inch away from the ledge and too low he's dead without his down+b. Lastly, be careful with rest because up+b sweetspot punishes hurt. And ALWAYS ban Yoshi's.

Hopefully this was helpful. I only skimmed the previous posts so sorry if I was repetitive.

And merry christmas fellow puffs! :3

 

[Niko45]

luigi, imo, is one of the most underrated characters (RELATIVELY SPEAKING, mind you).

I feel like I see people use Luigi vs top tier as there random example of a complete landslide MU and he's just not free like that lol.

It seems like Luigi can be particularly sort of a random problem matchup for jiggs, too. Tough on ICs, as well.

 

[idea]

yeah i can see that. same with doc pretty much. which also happens to be a 'random kind of bad' matchup for puff.

also thanks krynxe, that makes sense, especially the distance thing.

 

[King5280]

i hate doc -_-

 

[Krynxe]

Yep no problem.

And yeah luigi can be extremely good. In my region, we used to have ka-master. Watch video of him vs. top players in WA like Silent Wolf (though most of the videos are from ~2+ years ago). Never doubt Luigi's ability, he's a completely different MU than any other character.

Edit:
Yeah doc is annoying. I'm still figuring that mu out myself.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I feel like I see people use Luigi vs top tier as there random example of a complete landslide MU and he's just not free like that lol.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8ea2LYEeCU#t=4m11s no but in all seriousness I agree. I think he's a really solid OFFENSIVE character.

 

[Krynxe]

Well luigi has a terrible mu on sheik, but he's pretty even on puff.

And yeah, very offensive.

 

[FoxLisk]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8ea2LYEeCU#t=4m11s no but in all seriousness I agree. I think he's a really solid OFFENSIVE character.

lol that was hilarious. i love it when people get tier listed.

poor low tier mains

 

[KirbyKaze]

I actually agree with Niko, but I felt like going for comedy.

I think Luigi's offense is really good (he plays a good RPS game onstage) but I think defensively he's awful. His low traction seriously nerfs his game against anything that pushes him away when he tries to crouch-punish, shield-punish, and a lot of other handy-dandy defensive staples. His offense, conversely, features massive priority and reasonably good trades (and combo-break nair). He also has a really good KO on FD with edgehog > stand > up+B. So, yeah. I think his offense is probably his best feature (and is very much underrated).

Fox, Sheik, and Falco shut him down really hard though (it's really easy for them to deny him good positioning, or they just **** the strongest aspects of his base game). It seriously feels like he can't do anything to them (except, I suppose, do what every sub-par character does vs space animals and go for lucky random hits and do your best to death combo them; god help you against a good Sheik, though).

 

[Republican0fHeaven]

Good job beating him in game 1 Kyle, I didn't see that one til right now. I usually need a rest to give me any advantage. So I spam crouch and rest oos. You did it without resting.

 

[Mahone]

One interesting mind game is CC resting luigi's wd approach. It really makes them scared lol.

One of my close friends is a luigi main so I know quite a bit about this matchup. You really have to watch out for his dair, uair a lot because he can literally just jump above you and dair because you're both so floaty. Generally try to keep him off the ground, if he is on the ground be either far away or in his face. Usually puff tries to stay one bair space away from their opponent, but that's not the case against Luigi. Luigi approaches a ton, almost always with a WD, so to be safe you have to be at a distance where you can react to the WD's or really close where you can hit. Be patient because Luigi can't do anything unless he approaches and he always will, just don't let them do any hit and run with WDing. Mixing up between bair spacing and shffl uair when he approaches is probably the most successful method I use. Nair/jab smashes are also helpful. Avoid full hopping as much (unless you have platforms) because luigi loves to wd right under you and punish. Also don't throw out unnecessary attacks if you know they won't hit (unless they run into them) because you can't afford the lag; you need to be ready to react to every WD. Get luigi off the stage and you have an easy stock, just always be careful for misfire. I tend to approach low if they're off the stage (and obviously going to forward+b) and jump in with a bair or fair, that way he'll misfire over your head. It's usually smarter to wait where the forward+b will take Luigi though, just make sure you don't get hit by it and lose your opportunity to edge guard. Don't forget how high his up+b reaches, so if he forward+b's into the stage and is falling grab that ledge. Drop fair if necessary; if he's an inch away from the ledge and too low he's dead without his down+b. Lastly, be careful with rest because up+b sweetspot punishes hurt. And ALWAYS ban Yoshi's.

Hopefully this was helpful. I only skimmed the previous posts so sorry if I was repetitive.

And merry christmas fellow puffs! :3

Wow this is REALLY GOOD advice.... i play Vist and Winston a lot, so i have a lot of luigi practice too and i was gonna write some advice, but like 90% overlaps with what you wrote... so hopefully we both are right lol

One thing i didn't really understand.... you say to watch out for his dair and then you say to upair a lot... i find it really hard to beat out his dair with upair so i just try to space horizontally and bair his dair

Also, one thing i would like to add is that it is a good idea to occasionally fsmash his wavedash approaches to keep him honest... too many jiggs just let him move around too freely like krynxe said... i dunno about resting it though lol that sounds risky but i guess it could be good too

Also i used to get ***** by Vist, but the change that allowed me to stop getting ***** was being MORE EFFICIENT...

i can't stress that enough... like krynxe said, you can't just spam moves, your wall of bairs doesn't work in this matchup, try to be much more efficient and you'll do better trust me.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Against Luigi, less is more.

Unless you're Falco.

 

[Krynxe]

Wow this is REALLY GOOD advice.... i play Vist and Winston a lot, so i have a lot of luigi practice too and i was gonna write some advice, but like 90% overlaps with what you wrote... so hopefully we both are right lol

One thing i didn't really understand.... you say to watch out for his dair and then you say to upair a lot... i find it really hard to beat out his dair with upair so i just try to space horizontally and bair his dair

Also, one thing i would like to add is that it is a good idea to occasionally fsmash his wavedash approaches to keep him honest... too many jiggs just let him move around too freely like krynxe said... i dunno about resting it though lol that sounds risky but i guess it could be good too

Also i used to get ***** by Vist, but the change that allowed me to stop getting ***** was being MORE EFFICIENT...

i can't stress that enough... like krynxe said, you can't just spam moves, your wall of bairs doesn't work in this matchup, try to be much more efficient and you'll do better trust me.

Thanks Mahone. When I said to uair I meant when he's trying to jump above you, before he dairs. Like you said, moving out of the way and spacing horizontally is better if you know the dair is going to come out, I should have clarified that. And the rest thing was just sort of a mindgame I've gotten to work before, but it's definitely dangerous so I wouldn't suggest going for it unless you see a really good opportunity. Also, if you do go for it, WDing toward Luigi might help. I'll have to try it some time.

And fsmashing does sound like a good way to cut Luigi off, or (wd) shield grabs if you expect tilts or jabs on their wd approach. Puff doesn't have anything that punishable that you'll ever be using (besides missed rest, which doesn't really count) so puff players shouldn't have to worry about Luigi's WD->Up+B sweetspot punish. Just remember that it can happen.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Just go Fox and nair him you scrubs lol

f-throw, dash attack, shine, and bair are also essentials