Data Mah0ne's Stuff about Puff

[Mahone]

Thanks Mahone. When I said to uair I meant when he's trying to jump above you, before he dairs. Like you said, moving out of the way and spacing horizontally is better if you know the dair is going to come out, I should have clarified that. And the rest thing was just sort of a mindgame I've gotten to work before, but it's definitely dangerous so I wouldn't suggest going for it unless you see a really good opportunity. Also, if you do go for it, WDing toward Luigi might help. I'll have to try it some time.

And fsmashing does sound like a good way to cut Luigi off, or (wd) shield grabs if you expect tilts or jabs on their wd approach. Puff doesn't have anything that punishable that you'll ever be using (besides missed rest, which doesn't really count) so puff players shouldn't have to worry about Luigi's WD->Up+B sweetspot punish. Just remember that it can happen.

Ya that makes sense....

also i like fsmash more than shield grabs cuz a lot of times his momentum makes it so that he hits ur shield but then keeps going so u can't grab... plus you can't do much to him outta a grab so i dunno...

I do like going for empty hop grabs in this matchup... i find that luigi shields more than most characters because they love to shield bairs and wd oos

Just go Fox and nair him you scrubs lol

f-throw, dash attack, shine, and bair are also essentials

haha... i've played some friendlies with my ****ty fox against luigi i was surprised how easy it was... as long as its not fd... also you can waveshine grab him if ur frame perfect and like dash cancel grab or something after a perfect length wavedash.... also foxlisk always tells me that you can shine side-b and it combos

 

[Republican0fHeaven]

If luigi full hop dairs, I always run away. If luigi short hop dairs and I can't wd back fast enough, I always shield and wait for a followup nair. So in summary, when luigi is above me in dair position or even horizontal and alittle above, I don't try to hit him at all.

Getting a bair then going for the wall of pain 2nd bair at mid percents has often led to me trading the bair with his dair. Sucks.

You can CC rest his dair at low percents, but it has to be a falling dair and he has to not be moving horizontally much. Kinda stupid.

.... Im pretty sure if you can expect a wavedash dsmash (forward approach) from him that it should be an easy rest oos everytime. (unless its at the very end of his wavedash where his momentum is gone)

 

[Krynxe]

If luigi sh dairs and you're in your shield, try to wd back oos and see if you can punish the nair that you know he's going to throw out.

Also, took note of cc resting luigi's dair. :3

 

[KirbyKaze]

Guys

Nairodactyl

 

[boomrested]

Guys

Nairodactyl

Is that even better than a nairplane?

 

[KirbyKaze]

It's possible.

 

[Republican0fHeaven]

If luigi sh dairs and you're in your shield, try to wd back oos and see if you can punish the nair that you know he's going to throw out.

Also, took note of cc resting luigi's dair. :3

good point. wd oos is so necessary to escape and punish pressure. you need it

 

[King5280]

how do i get grabs on spacies? i hate them.

 

[Mahone]

how do i get grabs on spacies? i hate them.

wavedash back is the best one...

when they catch on to that... dash back, then wavedash back

and then when they catch on to that... instead of dashing back just grab (since they will try to run past you predicting you will dash back)

...

also just empty hop grabbing after you do a bunch of spaced aerials can work if you do it sparingly

 

[-LzR-]

I hear that wavedash back a lot. How exactly does it work and when and how?

 

[Krynxe]

If you don't know what wavedashing is or how it works, you should really look into it and figure it out lol.

Assuming you do know what it is and how to do it, you implement it when being approached (usually by an aerial) as sort of a 'dodge' leaving you open to counter attack.Because you're not shielding or floor dodging or something else with lag/hitstun, you're completely free to do whatever you want.

One really good example is vs. falco, when he tries to dair you you wd back. He'll land on front of you with lag and you'll be free to do whatever you want. You have to keep in mind that they're l-canceling, so your guaranteed options are limited due to time restraint. Grabbing is often the best choice, or a quick smash attack. Hope this helps. :3

 

[Mahone]

I hear that wavedash back a lot. How exactly does it work and when and how?

So in the first panel... you are at like max range of fox's short hop nair, so the average fox will try to nair... you wavedash back and grab him

2nd panel, the fox is going to try to do a nair because he knows that it will overshoot you, so you can't wavedash back and grab... bad puffs will try to wavedash back grab and fox will hit you.... but if you get used to that spacing you can dash back then wavedash back grab... or dash back jump away bair... etc., the idea is just to use a dash back or jump back to surprise ur opponent by going farther back than they think you can

In the 3rd panel... the fox will be at the same spacing as the 2nd panel... he will try to outsmart you by dashing forward first, assuming you dash back... so basically the position moves the 2nd panel to the left by a dash spacing... then he will do the nair overshot and **** you, but if you predict this... you can just stand still and grab his dash into you.

 

[Krynxe]

Good explanation Mahone. And to clarify to pawf players, puff's grab range isn't nearly as long as fox's nair range (and the range of most aeriels people will approach with) therefore you need to quickly dash (jc) grab them. This is the main reason I used falco's dair in my example, because of it's terrible horizontal range but I figured this should still be clarified.

And a question for you Mahone: in that example in the second panel, couldn't you turn-around shield and wait to shield grab, or even turn-around cc (or crouch dodge) jc grab or smash? This might not be as effective vs fox, but turn-around cc jc grab is something I'd imagine could work well vs falcon or sheik when you think they'll overshoot and if they try to fake you out and grab, their grab misses because you're crouched. (and you can react accordingly, sometimes a rest.)

It also seems like a good option cause you can wd back after the turn-around if you fear they're going to land on you. Like vs falco, you cant really cc his dair and if you think he's going to overshoot but still possibly hit you then a normal wd back isn't very safe. But, a turn-around wd back might be a lot safer.

It was really just a though, it's not something I really ever implemented before. Thoughts?

 

[Mahone]

ya there are tons of things you can do at that spacing for sure... like you could time an uptilt to beat his aerial or crouch or shield like you said... my 2nd panel is just an example of one things you can do...

i just posted cuz he was asking about how to use wavedash back, but i definitely agree with you that there are a lot of other options that are even be better than that...

one benefit of the option in the 2nd panel is that it sets you up to backthrow the spacie offstage, which could be useful at high percents or against someone who is good at di'ing

 

[Krynxe]

Not to mention the uthrow rest at low percents if bthrow won't be effective.

 

[-LzR-]

Yay Mahone, I got it. I do understand Wavedashing and all the stuff, I just hadn't understood why WDback to grab was so good. Now I get it, sounds awesome.
Mahone shall never explain anything without turning it into beautiful art again.

 

[Republican0fHeaven]

Good explanation Mahone. And to clarify to pawf players, puff's grab range isn't nearly as long as fox's nair range (and the range of most aeriels people will approach with) therefore you need to quickly dash (jc) grab them. This is the main reason I used falco's dair in my example, because of it's terrible horizontal range but I figured this should still be clarified.

And a question for you Mahone: in that example in the second panel, couldn't you turn-around shield and wait to shield grab, or even turn-around cc (or crouch dodge) jc grab or smash? This might not be as effective vs fox, but turn-around cc jc grab is something I'd imagine could work well vs falcon or sheik when you think they'll overshoot and if they try to fake you out and grab, their grab misses because you're crouched. (and you can react accordingly, sometimes a rest.)

It also seems like a good option cause you can wd back after the turn-around if you fear they're going to land on you. Like vs falco, you cant really cc his dair and if you think he's going to overshoot but still possibly hit you then a normal wd back isn't very safe. But, a turn-around wd back might be a lot safer.

It was really just a though, it's not something I really ever implemented before. Thoughts?

Yeah I like that idea. Most of the time when I fight falco his dair manages to just poke me as I wavedash back or if I wavedash back into shield. I don't know if it's cause I wavedash too late or his horizontal movement covers the wd back idea. So I have found it useful to wavedash forward and under his dair then that allows me to turn around grab or bair.

Unfortunately this doesn't work against fox's sh nair cause its usually too low so if you have enough time to react, then simply ducking or turnaround shield could work. I'll have to experiment

 

[idea]

yeah wavedash back is really good, especially if they have poor spacing or are just rushing in too much. honestly fox doesn't need to nair as much as a lot of fox mains do in the matchup, but i can see why they'd try to transfer it over from other matchups. it still works, it's just riskier against jiggs, and the jiggs mains will be watching for it.

at the end of the day though, the best way to get grabs on spacies is just to predict or react to their shield. they wait in shield pretty long since jiggs' range is so deceptive with her aerial mobility, so you often have more time than you think to float all the way over there, land, and grab them.

it's like, fox shield counters jiggs aerial, jiggs grab counters fox shield, jiggs aerial counters fox notshield. so you have to keep changing it around.

but for wavedashing back i pretty much agree with mahone's cute little diagram

edit: i remember the way i learned how/when to wavedash back was to just start wavedashing all the time, without a clear purpose in mind, and then my brain got used to the idea that i would be moving around that way and started to adapt it to react to fox's movement.

 

[boomrested]

What aerials do you guys use to approach? I prefer autocancelled Nair because Fair loses a lot of priority after it comes out, and Bair doesn't combo as well at higher percents. Thoughts?

 

[Krynxe]

That's very broad. Besides dair, all of puff's aeriels are great for approaching in certain scenarios against certain characters. Generally speaking, double fairs pushes them back very well and bair lets you space with efficient hits.
And bair can combo great at the right percents, wall of paaain.

Edit-
My own question here: How do you guys l-cancel puff's dair consistently? Do you guys have the timing down on it, or do you guys mash? One thing I always struggle in is dair follow-ups even when I flip my opponent.

 

[idea]

bair and fair mostly.

against spacies most of your combos come from things that send them up. but those moves aren't as safe and easy to hit with as fair and bair. what you CAN do off of fair and bair, really well, is techchase. jigglypuff actually has pretty good techchasing, but no one really seems to talk about it for some reason...she's just barely fast enough to follow characters well when they get knocked down.

it's actually a pretty good strategy to fair or bair fox until he has to tech, then float around and bair him out of whatever he does, and continue doing that until he's offstage. vs. getup attack you can time it so that you float in with an aerial just after the getup attack misses (harder on marth). jab reset takes care of lying still...you really only have to put effort into covering techroll away from you and getup attack.

 

[King5280]

recently i've been trying to dair more and im getting a lot better at hitting the l cancel but i still continue to miss it more than id like. does it work if you just spam z while your dairing to hit it? and can grab right after the dair? is that a thing that works?
earlier this week i played with abu and he was good with the dair. got dair upsmash off a couple of times pretty well.
also whats the best way to approach the ganon mu? i feel awkward against him cause of his range/kills puff in like three hits.

 

[-LzR-]

The Fox I usually play against doesn't really like to shuffle a lot, so I don't have a lot of opportunities to try the WDback to grab much, but he'll learn I guess.
Honestly, is there any way to avoid the uthrow to uair combo with Puff? Some say you can jump out, but I haven't been really able to. That thing is crazy since we can't even crouch his grab.

 

[Krynxe]

Uthrow uair is a huge ***** when fighting fox. You can smash di the first kick sometimes to avoid it, and other times jump out of it. Always di behind fox, too.

In general, don't get grabbed. A puff player shouldn't really be letting themselves get grabbed very often. Always expect dash jc grabs and be ready to react to them.

And king, I think that does work but idk how efficient it is. I assume you'll end up light shielding a lot if you just mash z without timing.

 

[idea]

uhh for l-canceling dair...well i almost never use dair, because i can never get anyone to sit still long enough, but in my experience you should l-cancel it later than you think you should. the timing for me is slightly after when i want to press it

if you have problems with getting grabbed a lot, start counting the times you do this:
jump > 1 or 2 aerials > land > shield.
if you start doing this a lot any halfway decent fox will just wait for you to land and grab right away.

 

[Massive]

Against gannondorf I tend to crouch and wavedash in and mess up his spacing on aerials. He cannot grab you at all when you're ducking, so abuse that like crazy. Try to stay at his front to force fairs and uairs instead of bairs and try to stuff his dairs with uairs OoS.

Rests are frequent but risky to miss and you can shieldpoke him easily with uairs to set them up. The best part about Ganon is that when he is off the stage, he is basically dead. Super easy to ledgeguard, mostly because he CAN'T sweetspot ledgegrab.

 

[Krynxe]

Against Ganon always stay in his face. You can't let them start out-spacing you with those fairs. Ganon is too good if you let him space.

 

[King5280]

i feel like anytime your in close he can just knock you out with lightning jab

 

[Krynxe]

Not that close lol. Close enough to bair him if he tries to fair or something, and usually in the air so his jab shouldnt be a big issue. You should be in bair distance because you can react to almost anything Ganon does. When you get in and hit him spam anything you can: uairs, jabs, usmash, fairs, everything quick and sloppy.

Don't chase retreating fair unless you know you'll hit first!!!!

That's the biggest mistake puff makes when fighting ganon. Retreating fair is so good cause if he doesn't hit he gets space to begin his bullcrap spacing game. When you see a retreating fair stay back and try to get back in safely. Patience is key. And also look out for his ftilts and uairs, those are his next most reliable things after his fair against you.

I don't even know who asked about the ganon mu, but yeah I learned that patience is critical. It only takes a few hits to die from him. Camping the ledges is nice too cause ganon is scared of the edge. <3

 

[idea]

the only thing i don't like about ganon is, you can do so much to him, that i feel obligated to ultra **** him off of every hit. and when i only do a regular combo and simple edgeguard, it's like i've failed

 

[Krynxe]

Haha I hear what you're saying. I love falcon cause I can uair all day, but ganon's a bit wierd. I don't have much experience in this mu, but I'm gonna try to get some friendlies in and see what works best v ganon. I know ganons (have to) shield a lot, so I think landing behind him and utilting for a rest might work out.

 

[idea]

oh yeah that reminds me, who here is going to apex?

4 days :O :O

 

[crush]

I''l mm all of yall at apex my young link vs ur puff

 

[Krynxe]

I'm not going, sadly. I am, however, going to a regional this saturday so I'll try to get some matches recorded. Brackets will be pretty lenient with the pr out of town haha. I'll definitely be watching the stream on friday and sunday for apex though. Good luck though Idea, and anyone else going.

 

[King5280]

i love fighting falcon but i dont like ganon. falcon is probably my best mu but ganon is gay and brutish.

 

[Krynxe]

Yeah ganon is a toughy. Like I said, remember to flail your little puff arms around all you can when you're up close. Constantly be throwing out moves, make him scared and unsure what to do. It's the only mu where puff pressures haha.

 

[idea]

I''l mm all of yall at apex my young link vs ur puff

are you better than vanz?

I'm not going, sadly. I am, however, going to a regional this saturday so I'll try to get some matches recorded. Brackets will be pretty lenient with the pr out of town haha. I'll definitely be watching the stream on friday and sunday for apex though. Good luck though Idea, and anyone else going.

thanks

 

[Krynxe]

>Comparing crush to Vanz
I lol'd pretty hard actually

Edit: No but seriously that's free money Idea, if his allowance calls for mm's.

 

[Republican0fHeaven]

I'll be there and game for some puff dittos X)

If ganon tends to be doing retreating fairs alot then as soon as he jumps to space another one jump as if you are going through him and fair... usually combos into another fair.

As for fox's uthrow uair, I think I am going to start doing this when I get grabbed by fox:

1. DI the throw behind fox, and if he can still get to me, smash DI the hit horizontally toward him (control stick then Cstick 1ms after)

2. If he gets the grab uthrow off too fast for me to DI the throw behind him, Ill hold up and smash DI the hit up (control stick then Cstick 1ms after)

3. At high percents DI the throw up and jump away from the hit.


For #2 I am still debating doing the Azen technique and smash DIing the uair down.....

 

[crush]

my ylink *****