He's quite right actually
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Marth in Ankoku's List for MLG Events
- Thread starter AlphaZealot
- Start date
Well since my sarcasm detector isn't moving:
|-l----------------|
I guess i'll respond to this.
Characters "****" because they have the necessary tools to do so. When top Brawl players are losing to Meta Knights of lesser skill then I think one could say something isn't right.
Or one could say, that this game isn't even a year old and that we still have a lot to learn
You're sarcasm detector works perfect though
lol, again.
I doubt that'd ever truly solve the problem. Especially considering that top MK players are some of the most difficult and frustrating players to take down.
Perhaps, but this game certainly isn't nearly as deep as Melee. For the most part it will simply be players progressing, not the characters.
-Jumpman-
Smash Champion
If a Lucas top player loses to a Snake of lesser skill something isn't right? Well, I guess Gheb IS right. "Top" players all hop on the bandwagon and play MK and most of them win because they are good. Some MK players just can't win tournaments, this is because they are worse players than top players.
Maybe, but I am sure some characters will develop certain tricks (not ATs!) to deal with other characters.
Good brawl players don't lost to bad Metaknights. We all know he's good so we should all be ready for the matchup. Losing to a bad Metaknight means you were unprepared or not as good as you think you were.
Also, I'm trying not to flame you because you're from NJ but it's very hard.
¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯
Smash Legend
Inui you know that banning MK isn't based on single matches, it is based on how MK is doing across the board. And no one is saying MK is unstoppable, we know he isn't.
I'm just laying out facts. If you beat a MK you either have a neutral match up with him (most likely Snake.. maybe), you were a MUCH better player, or the MK just played ******** that match.
Someone said it before me: if you beat a MK you beat the player, not the character.
Someone said it before me: if you beat a MK you beat the player, not the character.
Wouldn't that apply to any character then?
It has nothing to do with depth, when ppl can't even DI correctly out of the Nado
¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯
Smash Legend
People that can't DI out of nado just aren't good players. And Brawl isn't deep.
Inui
Banned via Warnings
If he is beatable, then he should not be banned. I know for a fact that Meta Knight doesn't even come close to dominating Atlantic North. Only Mew2King dominates, and he'd do that with Snake or Dedede anyways.
With that logic, Akuma shouldn't have been banned, since he WAS beatable.
Inui
Banned via Warnings
I told two of my friends in college that people have been bringing up Akuma and comparing him to MK. These friends are experienced players of other fighting games. One of them plays SC4 and Guilty Gear competitively.
They think it's a total joke to compare MK to Akuma. Akuma's air fireball > the game. The physics of the game said "lol ur fukd" when he used that move.
Realist View: Don't ban MK
Liberal View: Ban MK
Constructivist View: Hack Brawl
MK is one of the very few characters who is minimally impacted by Shield/L Canceling. Characters who were once regarded as incompetent are now battle-worthy with S/L Canceling and Wavedashing back.
One character example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmL0lnMSVDE
Perhaps if this were to become the tournament norm, we wouldn't be having this discussion?
Liberal View: Ban MK
Constructivist View: Hack Brawl
MK is one of the very few characters who is minimally impacted by Shield/L Canceling. Characters who were once regarded as incompetent are now battle-worthy with S/L Canceling and Wavedashing back.
One character example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmL0lnMSVDE
Perhaps if this were to become the tournament norm, we wouldn't be having this discussion?
Inui
Banned via Warnings
S/L canceling makes Snake too ********. No lag after his aerials = WTF.
The problem with that is Metaknight has 6 jumps. Good luck getting past his off-stage edgeguarding with only one airdodge.
I'm not comparing him to Akuma you silly little man.
Akuma could technically be beaten by a more competent player. That means, based on what you said earlier, that he shouldn't be banned, right?
Also, lol @ your last comment. I agree.
EDIT: lol, I just double-posted. That's a first. See what you made me to Inui?
This is actually a very good point. It's what made Jigglypuff so dominant in the later years of Melee. So I suppose we'd see the multiple-jumpers (MK, DDD, Jigs, Kirby, Pit, Charizard to an extent) get a boost from this aspect.
But like Jigs in Melee (with the exception of rest combos), I have a feeling this aspect would become MK's forte as opposed to having EVERYTHING be his forte. MK gains nothing from L-canceling and has everything to lose. Link d-air spam FTW?! Bowser's b-air becomes the new WOP?! I definitely think it's worth a shot with things as sh*tty as they already are.
EDIT: SHFFL'd Charizard fair?! With wavelanding?! I wish I could be that sexy.
Inui
Banned via Warnings
Sorry LOL. It's alllll my fault. 
Akuma could be beaten...if you're 1000 times better than the other player. Meta Knight is nowhere near that extreme.
In fact, I've beaten superior players that used Meta Knight with Marth in tournament sets. That's not supposed to happen, right?
Akuma could be beaten...if you're 1000 times better than the other player. Meta Knight is nowhere near that extreme.
In fact, I've beaten superior players that used Meta Knight with Marth in tournament sets. That's not supposed to happen, right?
Even if you're 1000 times better than the other player I still think you would lose.Sorry LOL. It's alllll my fault.
Akuma could be beaten...if you're 1000 times better than the other player. Meta Knight is nowhere near that extreme.
In fact, I've beaten superior players that used Meta Knight with Marth in tournament sets. That's not supposed to happen, right?
dainbramage
Smash Journeyman
...Or plank getting a % advantage and ledgestalling.
Neither is winning with anyone in low tier, apparently. Things become much more broad and hard to agree upon when you have no borderlines. We haven't had to ever ban a character in Smash, this is something we're not used to.
It should've been expected that something like this would happen (and I'm sure some saw this coming a mile away. I know I did).
Right now, I'm open to try Brawl with hacks, with the exception of getting rid of the directional dodging.
Why would you want wavedashing when all MK has to do to you then is get you off the level; something he already excels at?
Inui
Banned via Warnings
If the top tiers can lose often, namely Meta Knight, then there's no reason to ban any of them.
If you mean "remove tripping," then that's awesome.
Wavedashing would give characters excellent answers to Meta Knight's shield pressure and camping.
So Ganon can do this!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2p7zyUqpHE
and....and THIS!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZSDGEv5QE8
To your first point: I disagree.
To your second point: I dislike tripping twice as much as the next guy. I main Sonic. I need to be able to dash like crazy without that little portion of my brain telling me, "I'm gonna trip...ooooh I'm gonna trip..."
You ever trip into an Ike fsmash? How about an MK dsmash at 150%?
It makes babies cry.
Yeah, wavedashing would make certain characters have better chances of getting away from him ON the level...MAYBE.
But then he gets you off the level...
What are you going to do?
If you airdodge, then what? You're immobile, and you now have to reach the ledge with MK on your tail.
If you don't airdodge, and MK is approaching, exactly how are you going to fight back, especially against someone with such a retardedly good gimp game?
I like wavedashing, but I prefer multiple airdodges to wavedashing on the level.
It's just a personal opinion.
I will not, and shall not ever deny how awesome that was.
BrawlLover
Smash Champion
yeah that was pretty amazing
There's an obvious difference between Akuma and MK. You cannot realistically win against Akuma with anyone, even if the opponent is a far worse player.
MK is different. He's just overpowered but ppl need to be a little more calm. At the moment at least. The game is still very young, so it's too early to say anything about a ban.
MK is different. He's just overpowered but ppl need to be a little more calm. At the moment at least. The game is still very young, so it's too early to say anything about a ban.
DRaGZ
Smash Champion
Actually, decent players beat noobs using Akuma at Japanese tournies aaaaall the time.
Napilopez
Smash Lord
Not referring to you specifically, but I think you really have to specify skill level when talking about this things. Because MK, at the top percentage of skill level is clearly the best character to most people. However, if you go to the most basic noob skill level, and I mean really basic, then one could argue that Ike can easily beat MK. If the Ike and MK players only know how to use the ctstick, then at this extremely low level of skill, Ike will win, and Ike is the better character. So yea, Akuma at top levels of play was nigh impossible to defeat. And it wasn't even really close.
From what I've read up anyways, I don't claim to know much about street fghter(lol almost wrote mortal kombat lololol).
#HBC | Red Ryu
Red Fox Warrior
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I hope for your well being this is a joke.
BrawlLover
Smash Champion
i still think marth is domeenant
The fact that people are talking about banning MK is a problem.
Which is why you solve the problem, and ban MK.
Maybe then everyone in public will shut up about it, except for the scrubs...
and maybe M2K.
betterthanbonds9
Smash Ace
If we only use data from national tournaments that get 100+/150+/200+ people in them does that mean that everybody else should just not make a tournament and quit the game unless they can afford to go to one of those venues/recruit 100+ people to their venue for the tourny?
that seems like some BS logic imo.
And here's my two cents and it involves tier lists:
started off Sheik, Falco, Fox, Marth
2. Sheik, Fox, Falco, Peach, Marth
3. Sheik, Fox, Falco, Marth, Peach
4. Sheik, Fox, Marth, Peach, Falco
5. Sheik, Marth, Fox, Peach, Falco
6. Sheik, Fox, Marth, Falco, Peach
7. Sheik, Fox, Marth, Peach, Falco
8. Fox, Falco, Sheik, Marth, Peach
9. Fox, Marth, Sheik, Falco, Peach
Soo....the way I see this progress (i don't know much about Peach in the early years tbh) is that Sheik was pretty dominant. UNTIL the space animals used their sheik beating powers to tell sheik to gtfo their top tier. Marths loved this because they had a slight disadvantage against sheik, but they have an advantage against the spacies. Sheik mains deteriorate as fox and falco become unbearable and Marth gains in popularity as a counter to said spacies. And that's where we are in the tiers right now.
Fox is still #1 because...............well i know the numbers were rounded to the 9.9 so fox apparently had a higher number than marth did originally, but seriously, nobody says why he STILL gets a higher number. Is it because he wins more local (defined simply as <100 people to hopefully avoid an argument of names rather than stats) tournies? If so, then AZ needs to remember how Smash works, it was built by local tournies.
I predict Sheik usage to increase now as space animals will decline because of Marth. Oh, and on the reasoning that Marth players will take to the Marth ditto over using Sheik. I'm thinking it's more due to the fact that they MAIN Marth (and probably have more experience with it) and not Sheik.....
In conclusion, don't forget about local tournies and remember that there are trends in melee and anybody denying that fox/falco usage increased still thinks the earth is a flat.
Now, how does this relate to MK?
Well, ask yourself, is there a trend with MK? Will a character beat MKs consistently in a way that players will just switch to the counter of MKs counter, and then (this is the key part) will the community choose to counter the counter to MK's counter with a character that is NOT MK. If so, MK doesn't deserve a ban, if not, then MK=/=Marth or Sheik, but in fact a more dominant force.
that seems like some BS logic imo.
And here's my two cents and it involves tier lists:
started off Sheik, Falco, Fox, Marth
2. Sheik, Fox, Falco, Peach, Marth
3. Sheik, Fox, Falco, Marth, Peach
4. Sheik, Fox, Marth, Peach, Falco
5. Sheik, Marth, Fox, Peach, Falco
6. Sheik, Fox, Marth, Falco, Peach
7. Sheik, Fox, Marth, Peach, Falco
8. Fox, Falco, Sheik, Marth, Peach
9. Fox, Marth, Sheik, Falco, Peach
Soo....the way I see this progress (i don't know much about Peach in the early years tbh) is that Sheik was pretty dominant. UNTIL the space animals used their sheik beating powers to tell sheik to gtfo their top tier. Marths loved this because they had a slight disadvantage against sheik, but they have an advantage against the spacies. Sheik mains deteriorate as fox and falco become unbearable and Marth gains in popularity as a counter to said spacies. And that's where we are in the tiers right now.
Fox is still #1 because...............well i know the numbers were rounded to the 9.9 so fox apparently had a higher number than marth did originally, but seriously, nobody says why he STILL gets a higher number. Is it because he wins more local (defined simply as <100 people to hopefully avoid an argument of names rather than stats) tournies? If so, then AZ needs to remember how Smash works, it was built by local tournies.
I predict Sheik usage to increase now as space animals will decline because of Marth. Oh, and on the reasoning that Marth players will take to the Marth ditto over using Sheik. I'm thinking it's more due to the fact that they MAIN Marth (and probably have more experience with it) and not Sheik.....
In conclusion, don't forget about local tournies and remember that there are trends in melee and anybody denying that fox/falco usage increased still thinks the earth is a flat.
Now, how does this relate to MK?
Well, ask yourself, is there a trend with MK? Will a character beat MKs consistently in a way that players will just switch to the counter of MKs counter, and then (this is the key part) will the community choose to counter the counter to MK's counter with a character that is NOT MK. If so, MK doesn't deserve a ban, if not, then MK=/=Marth or Sheik, but in fact a more dominant force.
Flawed argument. Meta Knight doesn't win tournaments by huge margins. There are plenty of characters who can reasonably beat him.
Even with the counter-picks against Marth (pray tell, what stages? There are, like, two stage that I know of that are anti-Marth), he still dominated. He still had no real counters, suffering only slightly disadvantaged match-ups at worst.
Meta Knight enjoys slightly better match-ups relatively speaking (Meta Knight has several OMFGWTFP0WN matches, but those characters suck anyway) and he's not winning tournaments by constant 3- or even 2-stocking. He's just winning in large quantities, not by wide margins.
Snake is the only one who stands a reasonable chance at beating him, that we know of for sure. But I guess that's still one =p. Yoshis claim they can with that pivot grab while a Yoshi player has yet to rank decently in a tournament. Donkey Kong/DDD have the tools, but it would be a shame to state that the outcome of such matches are representative of the highest level of play =p. Snakeee claims she goes neutral, but nothing's set in stone. This is a point on which many do not agree in and as it is the core of most pro-ban's arguments, I believe thorough analysis of these matchups are in order. Which gives the anti-ban camp reason as it is indeed too early to put forth such opinions (MK having no bad matchups) as fact.
Fox, Sheik and Falco (to a lesser extent) gained from the very same lack of solid counterpicks, iirc. You then had 3~4 characters at the very top that were just as viable as the next. And Melee's depth allowed lower tiers to rise and shine (CF, Puff, etc). In Brawl, you have MK>Snake>>>>The rest, and a few honorable mentions (ie. anther in the west). What annoys people, I presume, is that MK is the only one in god tier.
Now you're just push forth your own standards.