Marth Social Thread

[MaxThunder]

Marth feels really good in 2.5, i think i could even drop melee marth since these two are almost identical, although PM marth has more mechanics to work with.

quick question, does anybody know where to find a Sephiroth model, but with the normal marth sword and not the humungus one? i saw it in a video once so if so one could help me out

oh i have that... i could send it to you... just send me a PM about it so i remember...

 

[TheDevicer]

^So tacky...

 

[Nike.]

Shaya described my exact thoughts on Marth.

 

[Shaya]

Neko.

One word.
Shield.
Second one.
HI!

And Marth gets **** on when people start to shield at later percents because he's pretty much the only character in the game who's grab (and throws) are actually useless at the percents where everyone's shielding.

This isn't brawl where we don't mind, our throws are always helpful / bad situation forming and our aerials are good for shield pressure and eventual shield poking. However, it comes down to those aerials actually being useless because you can't chain them at those percents, and they don't kill.

 

[BTmoney]

So what do you all, or anyone, suggest to give marth that X factor? A less picky tipper? Or more knock back/% on non tipperd hits?

I think he's fine but I only play people with bad DI so I can do so much more than I'm supposed to lol. I can definitely feel where the comments/complaints come from

 

[Nike.]

The major flaw/weakness I see in Marth is his inability to kill from the 80%-140% range reliably. I think that's the main thing Shaya pointed out (rest of cast getting buffs and legit kill options).

• Bowser has a fsmash that can potentially kill you under 50% and has either mobile or super armored kill options below 100%.
• Captain Falcon has 7590453456345643 setups into knee which can kill by the 100% mark, many times earlier.
• Fox can spam dash -> up-cstick the moment his opponent hits the 90% mark.
• G&W, as bad a character as he still is after this patch, still kills under 100% with his smash attacks.
• Ike... yea.

The list goes on. So much of the cast has good kill options that doesn't require high percents.
Now look at Marth.

• Pre 70% deaths are almost always a spike from a combo of some sort.
• Tipper fsmash starts killing at the 80%-90%, but those aren't spam easy.
• After that comes the utilt range from 140%'s, which is basically only set up during a juggle.
• Tipper aerials and Fsmash finally approach death percents from the 165%-185% range.
• Uthrow kills at 190% and up.

I look at that list and I think to myself "That sounds EXACTLY like Melee Marth." However, in Melee, he had other things going for him. He was the best edgeguarder for most of it's metagame. He has so many creative options for edgeguarding/potential gimping that separated him from the rest of the cast (though the metagame of other characters kind of caught up the past year). That's not the case in PM, since now much of the cast edgeguards like a boss. One of Marth's main strengths has become a norm in this current cast.

 

[BTmoney]

Great post. I agree with all of that. But what do you suppose be done about it? If the developers were coding him again right now, what would you want?

 

[Nike.]

Wow, I made a huge wall of text for and then smashboards went down while I was previewing the message ;_;

• Slightly increase the knockback of untippered fsmash. Because we're supposed to wreak the benefit of proper spacing (tippers), this scaling should be slight. However, I feel that it should be killing by the 150% mark, or immediately after utilt kill percents.

• The P:M team obviously made an effort to improve DB this patch, which I'm extremely thankful for, but it's still pretty hard to land the full combo. I think part of this is by design to prevent players from spamming it, considering the full combo is actually pretty strong. Still, the fourth hit only lands in extremely situational percents and positioning. It's not a big priority on my list, but if we're nitpicking here lol.

• When the opponent reaches kill percents (by that, I mean 160%+), shielding is a pretty good counter to Marth due to his grab game. It's perfect for setting up low percent combos and basic positioning at low-medium percents, but at high percents Marth's grab game really sinks. A change that screams out to me is to increase either the knockback, damage, or both on Marth's bthrow. In general, unless your going for a double jump read afterwards, Marth's bthrow has always been pretty bad because dthrow also puts the opponent behind you (but at a better, lower angle). Increasing the knockback slightly or damage (8% sounds good) would help out.

In the current patch, I think ALL of these changes would instantly make Marth a solid top3 character, which I think would be too big a buff and is stretching it. However, 1-2 of those would def help, preferably involving fsmash.

For what it's worth (if this post looks like the finger to the development team), I think the recent changes to Marth are amazing. As many pointed out, he's so fluid in 2.5 that I don't even want to use other characters in friendlys lol. Some of the Brawl mechanics that transferred really help him (RARing and pivot grabbing are really friggin good). Cstick up for running usmash feels better and now usmash has viable uses (Grounded Dair -> run usmash looks to become a staple now). The decreased lag on his l-cancel dair in general makes me really want to get serious in this game because of how awesome it feels.

If I REALLY want to ask the P:M team to change stuff, I'd rather they focus on other characters that need it more. Bowser feels more like a Brawl- character with his seemingly broken gimmicks (multiple kill moves with super armor??????), though they had to improve him somehow. I very heavily disagree with the changes to Ness' neutral-b. Game and Watch is still bad, despite the recent changes (though I have no idea how to improve him in all honesty lol). I see these things going on with other characters and then Marth doesn't seem like he should be high on the priority list lol.

EDIT: In my ignorance, I forgot to actually check everything before posting. I removed the bit about changing dsmash because I posted false info about it. Dsmash is fine.

 

[cannedbread]

i don't know why you're making a big deal out of bowsers armor. it stops working at later percents and it's only really redeeming with nair, dsmash, cc, and maaaaybe fsmash. he's still fat and big with a crappy recovery and weak to grabs

i don't really like talking about changes to a character considering how much work they've put into this thing already but if i were to give changes to marth it would just be something like giving marth roy's angle-able upb thing or a slightly larger sweetspot, because his recovery is gaaaarbage.

 

[Nike.]

I didn't, it was like a brief sentence lol.

 

[cannedbread]

ah well sorry for misinterpreting you

i only really have qualms with his recovery though. seriously have you ever tried to grab the ledge with reverse upb? ughhh

so i heard dancing blade was improved? i don't have a chance to play at the moment, how was it changed?

 

[Shaya]

Marth being able to grab the ledge backwards with Up-B would be pretty amazing.

 

[Revven]

Marth being able to grab the ledge backwards with Up-B would be pretty amazing.

He can, only at the apex though and during the transition to special fall. As soon as he's in special fall though, he doesn't and cannot grab it backwards.

 

[MaxThunder]

he's been able to grab ledge backwards since 2.1 like all the other chars... why do people think he can't?..

would increased knockback growth on a throw make it do same stuff at low % but kill faster?..

less lag on up-smash would be good... would make it even better...

 

[Master WGS]

Rather than focus on what should change about Marth in the future, I think it will better serve everyone to aim conversation towards what he can/should do in tournaments now. We likely won't see a major update for at least six or more months, anyway.

For instance, grounded dair to usmash sounds pretty wicked. I'll need to look into that the next time I play. Also, I feel like (even since 2.1) I've been able to link Dancing Blade better than in Melee. This could just be the bad people I frequently play with, but it seems a lot more useful in P:M than it ever did before.

 

[Nike.]

Prolly the best Marth vid I've seen yet: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=QXXGRSRl2dY#t=2s

 

[Shaya]

He can, only at the apex though and during the transition to special fall. As soon as he's in special fall though, he doesn't and cannot grab it backwards.

That's exactly what I meant by what he cannot do.

I had a longish post yesterday but lost it because I forgot/didn't notice read only forum tiem

Yeah there probably won't be an update for a while. I think most people will transition towards the better characters at tournament level. And while I think Marth's capable of 'doing it' there are just more characters now who require less effort to do more.

What Marth can do in tournament? he's probably got the best dash dancing / wave dashing / crouch cancelling game out there (as in, the combination of all 3 not individually) and being extremely smooth with those 3 things leads to amazing options and follow ups from Dancing Blade (I don't think most characters can squat and punish it on hit anymore). Sh Dair is great when your pressure is high and your opponent is making mistakes (like, if they read your sh dair they can **** the living **** out of you so it isn't exactly bread and butter although it feels so good and is auto tipper).

Pivot grabbing is a strong tool along with jc grab. I like dash dancing and making a move of going in and then wave dashing backwards into a pivot grab for crapping on dash attacks.

Marth has a lot of things really. I could probably write quite a lot. Shame most of them aren't exactly solid.

Also shield breaker actually hurts shields now IIRC. It's probably the key to everything I ***** about and is probably a better landing move than fair in a lot of situations.

All Marth needs to have is a scary grab game past 50%. Anyone who doesn't know the MU and still plays "worried" past that time is really when you see how many options / pressuring tools he has. In between shieldbreaker and uair landings (pretty much the only move he has other than nair that seems to shield poke) being a "must shield" or "must avoid" then all the power in the world comes from the second aerial from a sh that you choose to waveland instead and are essentially god tier safe.

 

[hamyojo]

The major flaw/weakness I see in Marth is his inability to kill from the 80%-140% range reliably. I think that's the main thing Shaya pointed out (rest of cast getting buffs and legit kill options).

• Bowser has a fsmash that can potentially kill you under 50% and has either mobile or super armored kill options below 100%.
• Captain Falcon has 7590453456345643 setups into knee which can kill by the 100% mark, many times earlier.
• Fox can spam dash -> up-cstick the moment his opponent hits the 90% mark.
• G&W, as bad a character as he still is after this patch, still kills under 100% with his smash attacks.
• Ike... yea.

The list goes on. So much of the cast has good kill options that doesn't require high percents.
Now look at Marth.

• Pre 70% deaths are almost always a spike from a combo of some sort.
• Tipper fsmash starts killing at the 80%-90%, but those aren't spam easy.
• After that comes the utilt range from 140%'s, which is basically only set up during a juggle.
• Tipper aerials and Fsmash finally approach death percents from the 165%-185% range.
• Uthrow kills at 190% and up.

I look at that list and I think to myself "That sounds EXACTLY like Melee Marth." However, in Melee, he had other things going for him. He was the best edgeguarder for most of it's metagame. He has so many creative options for edgeguarding/potential gimping that separated him from the rest of the cast (though the metagame of other characters kind of caught up the past year). That's not the case in PM, since now much of the cast edgeguards like a boss. One of Marth's main strengths has become a norm in this current cast.

Fox's (and other characters') up smash out of dash is not on purpose, it should be fixed in future versions.
Just sayin'
Good read, I agree with most of this.

However, Marth has received some serious buffs in his new purple color. Too good.

 

[BTmoney]

Prolly the best Marth vid I've seen yet: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=QXXGRSRl2dY#t=2s

@@!#@%^$

Wow axe has a nice marth. Looks better than his melee marth

 

[GHNeko]

Fox's (and other characters') up smash out of dash is not on purpose, it should be fixed in future versions.
Just sayin'

...wat

says who?


lolwtf

 

[DMG]

???

Doing a run/dash and then Usmash has been... Melee for awhile lol. You might of had to jump cancel into Usmash, but that's basically the same damn thing minus a frame or two. Pressing up or jump, then Cstick up, is not much different from just Cstick up lol.

 

[Juushichi]

I dunno guys, I think Marth still poops on a lot of the Brawl cast (and still controls the improved melee cast for the most part) and remains one of the best characters in the game... easy.

Here's a question: Who do you think Marth struggles with of the new cast?

I was having a bit of a problem with Sonic yesterday, lol. I don't think he struggles with him a ton, the MU is probably like 55-45 Marth, maybe. Get rid of those large stages though (PS1/2, SV, DL).

 

[Shaya]

He probably loses to Mario, Dedede, Zero Suit Samus, Donkey Kong, Ike, Ganon, people keep saying Ivysaur but iono, maybe Bowser.

And then all those mus he loses in melee and probably still does. How he pars up against Fox/Falco is pretty debatable.

 

[cannedbread]

evenish:
bowser
falcon
dedede
spacies
ganon
ike
peach
pit
toon link
sheik
squirtle maybe

hard:
charizard
link (fuuuck)
lucario
mario
ness
pikachu
sonic

wrecks:
zelda
rob

don't know everyone else

 

[Dante']

I think Marth is being underestimated in PM, mostly due to him not having any new fancy tech like a lot of the brawl cast. In my opinion, Marth is still the most fundamentally sound character on the roster, and I assume that will become more apparent as the game matures.

On a diffrent note, I finally got around to watching some of Axe's Marth. I was really impressed with his usage of the 2.5 buffs, and he landed landed that sexy d-air to up-smash combo a few times. Im curious to see how viable that combo actually is.

 

[GHNeko]

Pretty freaking viable. it's a spike with high Base KB, so the hitstun on the ground bounce is massive.

Also, i feel like the reason why people feel the way they do about marth isn't because he's lacking new toys, but rather because what made Marth great in melee is a lot more common here, so he doesn't look as good in comparison.

 

[TheDevicer]

The reason we don't speak about what Marth should do in tournaments is pretty darn simple: there's no need to. It's pretty difficult to add to the meta of the most developed character in smash history... At most, we can discuss new matchups, universal mechanics, and slight differences between PM and SSBM.

I feel like Marth struggles against the following:

DK
Link
Pit
Lucario
Sonic
D3

Maybe Diddy and ZSS. Haven't seen or played this enough.


I can justify my position on those characters if anyone feels I'm wrong. I'm not bamsey though, so i'll spare myself from writing a wall I feel most people are just going to skim though at best.

 

[DMG]

I dunno guys, I think Marth still poops on a lot of the Brawl cast (and still controls the improved melee cast for the most part) and remains one of the best characters in the game... easy.

Here's a question: Who do you think Marth struggles with of the new cast?

I was having a bit of a problem with Sonic yesterday, lol. I don't think he struggles with him a ton, the MU is probably like 55-45 Marth, maybe. Get rid of those large stages though (PS1/2, SV, DL).

2.1 Sonic did better imo. This Sonic does a bit worse, and yeah you want the bigger stages gone.

He probably loses to Mario, Dedede, Zero Suit Samus, Donkey Kong, Ike, Ganon, people keep saying Ivysaur but iono, maybe Bowser.

And then all those mus he loses in melee and probably still does. How he pars up against Fox/Falco is pretty debatable.

Most of these I strongly disagree with. Mario and Doc always struggled with Marth's range, and the Dair buff still doesn't address that for them. The better recovery is nice for Mario, and being able to kill out of Dthrow is also nice, but everything else is basically the same.


Dedede is debatable, nobody plays him/well. Might be even, might be Marth advantage. Remember his Upb has no armor, just spike him out of it at any time. In the air, Dedede doesn't have a fast way to cover in front of him/diagonal down in front of him where Marth would juggle. Only places Dedede would catch up are edge guarding and ground control.

The rest I'll cover in the next segment

evenish:
bowser (Lol No. Grab Bowser: most of the top level Bowsers right now have Marth pinned at one of their bad MU's because of his grab game and how easy Bowser is to punish during tech chases. Bowser super armor literally doesn't come into play, and he can't keep trying to abuse Upb/safe mixups due to Marth's grab range and how fast he covers ground. Bowser is also prone slightly to juggling, but it's the grabbing that beats him.)

falcon (basically the same as the Melee MU)

dedede
spacies (Everyone but Wolf I agree. He probably beats Wolf)

ganon (I dunno about this one. He beat Ganon in Melee, the aerial Side B buff doesn't come into play that much. Marth swats Ganon at a range, he doesn't have to be up close to win.)

ike (2.1 Ike was a beast. This Ike I feel Marth beats: you win just about everywhere with speed. You have similar traits like sword long reach grab etc, but you tend to be faster and in general more mobile Side B not included. Edge guarding Ike got even easier, and Marth was already notable for being one of the few characters who could edge guard all of Ike's options reliably. Aether had to be sweetspotted or else he got a free tipper Fsmash, Dair still eats through Aether, Side B would also lose to Dair Fair Ftilt Counter etc.)

peach (I'd put it slightly Marth favor. Some of the unintentional buffs she got were changed back, like Dsmash with a turnip in hand.)

pit (I realllly think Marth beats Pit. Least 2.1 Pit. It is hard to run away from Marth, and up close he honestly gets pooped on.)

toon link (Strongly think Marth wins)

sheik (Same as Melee basically)
squirtle maybe (Def think Squirtle loses)

hard:
charizard (Grab. Grab big characters with Marth, and bad things happen.)

link (I think Marth wins, but I don't think Hylian agrees. Mid and close range, you should beat Link. Just don't get grabbed or combod with Boomerang, really bout it.)

lucario (I dunno. I pick Marth vs Lucario's on purpose and DD around waiting for them to approach. It was really awkward in 2.1 when all Lucario would do is DA in, because everything else was super unsafe. I dunno what all has changed with Lucario, but Marth has definitely been a safe character to pick vs Lucario so long as you make him do the approaching)

mario
ness (Ness eats it from Marth)

pikachu (Pika in general should be slightly disadvantaged)
sonic (arguable. 2.1 Sonic was rough and probably went even. New Sonic is a bit easier to deal with I think)

wrecks:
zelda
rob (Hell yeah. Rob gets pood on)

don't know everyone else

Pretty freaking viable. it's a spike with high Base KB, so the hitstun on the ground bounce is massive.

Also, i feel like the reason why people feel the way they do about marth isn't because he's lacking new toys, but rather because what made Marth great in melee is a lot more common here, so he doesn't look as good in comparison.

Other people can edge guard, and recoveries in general seem better than before. Either more options, or go a bit further than Melee standards. Marth is still really REALLY good at it, but it's not like Ike can't stand onstage and Fsmash, Mario still has cape, Ganon Falcon Sheik Lucario Dedede Snake blah blah blah all have stuff. That's the main thing people feel.

With that said, I do agree that I think he's underrated and I feel he beats most of the Brawl cast and a lot of the Melee cast, including those who got buffs. There are very few characters where you just go "yeah I can't ****in beat them with Marth".

 

[TheDevicer]

Dedede is debatable, nobody plays him/well. Might be even, might be Marth advantage. Remember his Upb has no armor, just spike him out of it at any time. In the air, Dedede doesn't have a fast way to cover in front of him/diagonal down in front of him where Marth would juggle. Only places Dedede would catch up are edge guarding and ground control.

Dude... Fly's D3 is so totally Fly.

Anyways. D3 is a bit of a tough matchup for Marth in SSBB and many of the same elements carry over. D3's got massive grab range and disjointed hitboxes that outrange yours. He can mix up his recovery fairly well and doesn't get killed easily. He spaces well with his dees, fAir, bAir, and f-tilt. His throws also send opponents great distances and at low angles. The risk/reward ratio of his throws in really good and since Marth has a bit of a poor recovery, he gimps easily. He can easily diffuse pressure with jab and bAir OOS too. He's generally underestimated simply because he is played much less than characters like Ike and Lucario. I'd never out him in the top tiers, but D3 has some nice things going for him.

The first time I saw M's Ike and Fly's D3 duke it out, I was impressed on how well D3 culd manage and position himself. Wavelands and Wadle-dashes give him some nice movement and his range adds to his neural game too.

All in all, I think the matchup boils down to the fact that D3 has a slightly easier time dishing out damage and gimping than Marth does. For example, Marth can Ken combo D3 until relatively late precents, but D3 can recover from really low and there's not much Marth can do to retaliate after an offstage dAir.

 

[\Apples]

I've been playing a ****-ton of Dedede lately. I posted about the Marth v Dedede matchup over on the King's boards, I think Marth wins it pretty hands down.

I don't feel that Marth is a good matchup at all for Dedede. The characters play very similarly in that they both play to abusing the range of their disjointed hitboxes, but Marth has the advantage over DDD in 2 key areas: neutral game and pressure.

DDD just doesn't have anything outside of DownB to get out of Marth's combos. Nair only really works if the Marth is spacing poorly. Then, obviously Marth has a much easier time punishing DDD than vice versa.

At least, that's my experience with the matchup. The Marths I play don't let up and space well, making this a matchup I really have to work hard in.

Also, somebody earlier said Marth tipper FSmash doesn't kill until around 80-90%... no. It wasn't a tipper then. Tippers kill Bowser at 65%, this is sorely mistaken. I've seen FSmash tips kill Mario at 30 before. I will agree with the statement that you cannot just spam those though, that much is obvious.

 

[DMG]

If Marth spikes him, that's a lot of time to get back onstage or recover/get out of lag. Dedede can't meteor it obv, and he doesn't have armor on Upb anymore, so he's massive spike bait lol. If you spike him once and he's able to barely get back with his jumps + Upb, spike him again. Or Fsmash him, or whack him away with whatever move. Dedede should have to recover higher than usual because he doesn't have much to protect him from above while he tries to recover.


Fly's the only person that comes to mind when people bring up good Dedede. And yeah his edge guarding + ground game options are solid.

Edit: Tipper kills also vary a ton by what stage/position you're talking about. Just about anyone might as well be dead if they get hit by a tipper Fsmash at like 40 at the edge of most stages (or be prepared to be edge guarded), but at the center of the stage you might see someone DI it into the corner and live past 80 no problem.

 

[\Apples]

Well, I've yet to see that, which is surprising because the core players in my group have really good DI.

It's not even about Marth's ease of edgeguarding on Dedede, though. In fact, that's rarely what's most important in a matchup. If you think about it, most characters can edgeguard most other characters pretty well. It's less common for edgeguarding to be difficult than it is for it to be easy when it comes to character matchups. What matters first is how either character gets to the off-stage position in the first place. Because if they can't get thrown off-stage to be edgeguarded, then the edgeguarding will never happen. If a character has an amazing edgeguarding game but a terrible stage game, the character probably sucks and suffers from a poor design. (Probably)

The most important thing is their neutral games. Marth can more consistently bait Dedede and create openings than Dedede can to Marth. Not only that, but Dedede just doesn't have the space and time to deal with Marth's flurry of aerials. I spent a pretty healthy amount of time playing the matchup vs Vidjo's Marth and it wasn't easy mostly because his Marth just doesn't stop putting hitboxes out there and spacing them pretty perfectly for the most part. DDD just rarely has a good opportunity to punish Marth. Or if you'd rather think of it differently, Marth has the ability to play extremely safe against Dedede without letting up the pressure.

If it's done right, Marth should do about as well vs D3 as he did against Melee Ganondorf. I kind of think of it much like how Link beats Tink/Yink just because he outranges the little guy in every way possible, but that doesn't mean Link is strictly a better character than Tink. Similarly, Dedede and Marth actually have very similar fundamentals, but Marth is just faster than DDD so he has the upper-hand versus him.

 

[DMG]

Dedede probably does a bit better than Ganon, because Dedede has a comparable grab range to Marth and punishing a lot of stuff with Ganon if you are forced to shield is just super hard. Frame wise if Ganon's best option to punish your poorly spaced Fair, is to drop shield and try to Jab or something funky OOS, he's in a bit of a pickle. Dedede in that gtfo sense is limited like Ganon, but instead has a very nice grab range to make use of. His ground poking with Ftilt is also a bit better than Ganon fares.


That is the one part of Marth's gameplay that is consistently underrated though imo. In neutral, his mobility and ability to force you to react appropriately are pretty high up there with Sheik Spacies etc. Where you can create pressure and openings by threatening to close the gap quickly OR by actually doing it, coupled with a great ability to back up with a WD or DD. You don't even have to threaten half of the cast with Fairs, just threaten to grab them or get in their face first. Plenty of characters have enough trouble alone with that aspect of Marth.

 

[TheDevicer]

Hmm. I'm getting a lot of what you guys are bringing up. The problem I have is there's very little D3 out there. I'm only theorycrafting here, so all my points are relatively worthless... I may be shifting to your side, but I'd love to see some gameplay of Marth vs D3.

 

[DMG]

Yeah. Nobody plays Dedede! I dunno why.

 

[Shaya]

I play dedede.
He is ****ing god like. You can angle the trajectory of side b, so anyone recovering low dies. Anyone recovering high also dies because of the arc it goes upwards and then trails diagonally downwards after. Forward air is bogus. You just have to jump off stage about a good two characters length from the ledge and you just have to hover there. They can't avoid it.
Ever.
'm not sure if he's got the best fast fall, but It's probably close. Forward air is literally that good. Dedede's forward air arc hits above behind him and arcs below behind him, similar to Marth's fair but more angles of that 360, plus about 30% more range than Marth's sword. Not sure of the frame data but it's definitely sub 8 frames (his bair is laggier start up).
They buffed his dair, fair by HEAPS. They also seemed to have buffed utilt this patch (I only just noticed that its killing people at brawl percents rather than not killing at 130-150% in 2.1).
I honestly believe Dedede goes even or beats every character in the PM cast except Falco/Fox. I haven't played much against Falco this patch though, perfect shielding is a lot more consistent in 2.5 and utilt killing is good (crouch cancelled utilt is good enough against falco's close range shine game if he messes up slightly)

I agree Marth is fundamentally strong. But his kill options are balls compared to the rest of the cast.

Mario is very strong against Marth. He has a much stronger recovery than in melee. Too much of his stuff is safe on shield, especially in close quarters. Mario's DA for example is probably the best in the game. Buffed wavedash + buffed every move in terms of EVERYTHING you could EVER ASK FOR. Try playing Mario and think like you would playing Marth, it works, and it's sexy.

 

[GHNeko]

Shaya please stay here.

Nike, you too.

Also, what about Marth's fthrow to reverse up B at higher percents? Something tells me that works here.

 

[Nike.]

I'll try that out tonight, though I'd imagine it only works if the opponent DI's the throw up and towards you.

 

[GHNeko]

Well, I just tried it against a Mario CPU (No DI), and i was able to hit the up B right after tumble started.

I can imagine that if you're near the ledge, with their back to the ledge, they'll DI the fthrow in to avoid getting gimped, which can lead to an easy reverse up B.

EDIT:

Note: Reverse up B kills @ 95% at the edge of smashville.

 

[DMG]

If you are at the edge and they are at high enough %, DI away usually saves them from punishes. DI into Marth on Fthrow regardless of position or % usually gives him an easier time hitting you.