Mass Madness Ranking Battle +$250 to singles pot!

[Greene Archer]

Matt, if you actually want to use this to create a ranking system, you should probably use a standard ruleset for all tournaments that will contribute to said ranking. Changing rulesets mid-season doesn't contribute to legitimate rankings.

Also, technically you SHOULD change the ruleset to cater to the community. This ruleset is pretty out-of-date at this point.

 

[The Irish Mafia]

yeah, that guy's like the picture of a good player
i mean, he'd probably win a ****ton with or without rediculous cp stages
not gonna lie, a lot of peach mains are fine losing game 1 because they know they've got a super-cp stage in game 2
it can be kinda free, especially since it's hard to learn those stages

btw i miss you zach

 

[dudutsai]

Return of the people who don't play.

Sup Zach?

 

[#HBC | Mac]

@sai, it is an argument for reconsidering the stage list. If people are unhappy with the stage list than thats an issue. Since TO's aim to serve the community not themselves

 

[dudutsai]

He said in the first line that he wasn't insisting on the changes, just providing a different view. I needed to edit and catch at least one inconsistency because you always come in here makin me look bad on the internet, Yedi.

No. 1 Internet Debater, better than Yedi...

RIGHT HERE =D

 

[#HBC | Mac]

lolwhat

i was responding to what you said to me about tfs not coming not being an argument

lolol how do i make yu look bad on the internet, stop making **** up

 

[dudutsai]

You misunderstand. My quote was this.

The last sentence was directed at Yedi, who was talking about TFS not coming. It's not an argument for the stage.

Please read the entire thread. You said TFS wasn't coming because of the stage, and I said DCLXVI was coming because of the stage.

Mike argues that my argument is not a valid argument to put the stage in (something it seems you would argue against), so in the quote I tell him that I was just saying it because you said something similar but opposite.


Also I saw what you posted in the ultimate john thread. You're supposed to back me up man, not trash up my argument a page later after I'm already unsubscribed... I feel so betrayed.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

oh oh i feel you

and im sorry homie but that **** needed to be corrected.

you know i got your back son, silent wolf would prolly agree

 

[dudutsai]

I bet he would. Still suffering the pains of losing a match to some scrub *** puff player and his loud friends LOL


Edit: Speaking of which, does the other Andrew puff have a smashboards account? Do you know if he's coming Mafia?

 

[The Irish Mafia]

he's coming. He's kinda proud of his postcount of 1, though.

 

[MattDotZeb]

i'm not insisting he changes the stage list, i just wanted to bring it up for consideration because it should be noticed

"matt feeling like having a stage is all the reason he needs, even if it doesn't make sense."
lol no **** dude, he can do whatever he wants for no reason, but it doesn't change the fact that it's not right, keeping the players in mind. you basically lost sight of my messages completely

and yeah, i think matt comes off as rude/immature with the way he discusses the matter, simply because of the unethical reasons behind the stages being there, let alone the lack of understanding or open-mindness to adhere to a player's feedback. if he doesn't want to change it, whatever, but at least show some respect or give me a sense that you hear me out

in regard to the last sentence,

if my crew and i come to mass madness "almost exclusively" to play on icicle mountain, can it be legal?

I know why certain stages are banned right now, and I personally think a few of the bans are ridiculous (Ban Brinstar because people get hit by lava that comes up? Are you kidding? I refuse).

I am glad to hear your feedback on my tournaments, Mike.

People complaining about the stages I use has been around for a while. I've had some stages on in the past that I don't use now (Onett? As much as I love it for doubles and wanna pay tribute to the old school I'm not using that anymore). Right now I am happy with the stage list and hope that everyone uses it to the fullest.



And in response to your last sentence: I'm offended you would think I'd make that a legal CP. All the stages I have on as legal are stages I believe are fine to use as counter picks.


I'm not trying to come off rude but Sai really put it well:

he's [...] just too tired of arguing about the stage list with people.

fact^

I like these stages, and I'm happy with this stagelist, and I would be very disappointed if you guys force me into changing the stages.

I like having this tournament as my own little thing to have fun with and HoG as my "normal" ruleset event.
****, having Termina Bay on as a legal CP in Pools two MMs ago was hilariously awesome and the players who aren't super amazing enjoyed themselves whereas the players who are super amazing didn't bother CPing it. Granted I had it as a CP to show how little attention people pay to the first post, it was awesome regardless.

I'm very against changing the stagelist of MM into the current norm, and as I had previously said I do not plan to unless the response is extremely overwhelming.

Matt, if you actually want to use this to create a ranking system, you should probably use a standard ruleset for all tournaments that will contribute to said ranking. Changing rulesets mid-season doesn't contribute to legitimate rankings.

This is the only thing that would make me change the ruleset aside from you guys figuratively strapping me to a chair and pistol whipping me until I change it.
Zach is extremely correct about this.

I may just run MMs that do not contribute to the rankings occasionally using my preferred ruleset (aka this current one).
We'll see what happens after I go over this with myself for the next few days.

 

[Kyu Puff]

This one doesn't contribute to the rankings?

Also, would you considering giving two counterpick bans? That way you could keep this stage list with less complaining. It was pretty annoying for me last MM when I would ban Rainbow Cruise, and the spacies/Falcon players would counterpick Pokefloats and automatically win (during the round robin where every game counted).

 

[MattDotZeb]

No kyu puff I was saying I may consider running ones in the future (not this one) that do not contribute to the rankings using a different stage list.

This one is going to the rankings.

I wouldn't do 2 counterpick bans, but that wont matter if I change the stage list.

 

[Zombie Lucille Ball]

TBH 90% of the people I play at Mass Madnesses just agree to whatever rules, hell I did pound 4 random stage striking with a bunch of people. Also I swear I have to explain advanced slob picks to like 9 people every single Mass Madness wtf

matt, nothing against you personally, but i think the immature/rude manner you handle this is pretty lol for a tournament organizer. i like your tournaments a lot, but you're hella closed minded when it comes to this stuff. i didn't bother typing out the reasons why those stages should be banned because it would probably be a waste of time.

i'm guessing i'm the only one to have said anything, but is everyone really ok with these stages?..

edit: matt, "those stages are fun and most characters do well on them"

the only people that play those stages for fun are the ones that don't know how to abuse them in the unfair manner which they can

and i have to say you're ridiculously wrong about the second half of that sentence. all of those stages accompany unfair advantages to like, 5 characters overall. the majority of the cast has an unfair disadvantage on them.

If you're not going to argue WHY they shouldn't be legal, then no johns.

 

[SOLAR]

Keeping pokemon stadium in neutrals hurts peach, and adding mute city makes up for it. More stages is a good thing.

 

[$mike]

cogsmooch i didn't want to argue something that has been argued too many times

courtesy of hax:
"brinstar:
*there comes a point where the only safe ground on this stage is literally its top platform. this gives a ridiculous advantage to characters with extreme air mobility such as peach and jiggs, as they are still granted plenty of room to move around/mindgame the opponent while other characters struggle just to stay on the top platform.
*the lava makes it so that players can watch as opposing foxes, falcos and falcons take 50-60% from a stage hazard only to be hit back in for even more damage. while this can happen at any time, it becomes even more of a problem when the main stage is covered in lava and a simple throw off of one of the platforms can send an opponent into the lava for massive damage. combine this with jigglypuff's rest (which is also cancelled by the lava once jigglypuff falls into it) and it becomes blatantly obvious that this stage is not suitable for competitive play
*the janky shape of the floor interrupts techs and dashes. once a few of the bacteria things are broken, the parts of the stage on either side of them become walls. this makes it so that characters' techs/dashes can be stopped, interrupting combos/approaches that would otherwise work
*the stage breaking in 2 makes it nearly an autoloss for ice climbers. nana's AI constantly forces her to fall into the lava once the stage is broken apart. see mango vs chu dat game 3

rainbow cruise:
*the stage shape in general encourages excessive evasion of the opponent. peepee vs m2k game 5 was an exhibition of PP running away and lasering while waiting for M2K to slip up so that he could begin a combo
*the entire stage, especially some parts, favors fox/falco's lasers while offering no protection against them. this relates to the same problem brinstar possesses; it forces someone to approach the opponent or suffer massive damage. instead of simply the losing player being forced to approach (which goes for every stage except this and brinstar), the player going against fox/falco is forced to approach regardless if they are losing or not."
---

pokefloats: see rainbow cruise points
- characters with limited mobility suffer greatly on this stage (and rainbow cruise). ice climbers for example are almost impossible to win with here
- the movement of the stage encourages a "hit and run" type of gameplay. the shape makes many characters' combos become unviable as well. fox/falco (especially fox) have a big advantage here because of their ability to laser (build damage) then just get a simple grab to uair/bair or a single hit.
- the holes in some of the pokemon can often given a random death

mute city:
- this stage favors peach incredibly more than any other character in the game. her mobility allows her to always have an option to evade the opponent. her float/up b can essentially ensure that she never hits the ground while the stage is moving, while fast fallers flop like fish when getting hit at low percents. when cars come, peach's mobility (float) also allows her a big advantage because other characters need to jump/go on platforms while she can evade or have a better option than approaching the opponent via platform. all of this can also be applied to jigglypuff

corneria:
- promotes camping because the fin allows a player who's in the lead to wait there, leaving the other opponent no choice but to go down there (approach) or lose the game. almost every time this stage is played one player will go to the fin and camp. fox and falco most notably can jump and laser from the fin while remaining safe until the opponent approaches, which can easily be predicted and punished by the player waiting in the fin. OR, if two players are fighting in either part of the stage, the one in the lead always has the option to run to the other side of the stage (doesn't matter which) because of the way the sides of the stage are separated (making it easy to punish the losing/approaching player)

there you go


@solar
lol. good logic

 

[S l o X]

sorry <3

too far. maybe during the summer i'll make a trip up and stay for a while.

 

[Niko45]

In all honesty we were really unlikely to make it anyway, but after seeing the stage list it was a no brainer. I'm never going to travel for hours to play on Mute City or Floats, sorry.

And I know that's not even close to enough reason to get rid of the stage so like you said Matt I'll just wait for HoG.

 

[otg]

There is a No Johns on the same day, so that takes priority over MM, sorry guys. All of you should go out to HoG on the 29th tho so we can all chill and get high.

Also I could personally careless about what stages are on, but it seems to me that Matt only puts them on because of his own personal preference. I personally feel that a TO shouldn't put his own bias ahead of what the community wants, but thats just me.

 

[MattDotZeb]

And I know that's not even close to enough reason to get rid of the stage so like you said Matt I'll just wait for HoG.

Alright, I'll look forward to seeing you guys there and playing you all.

Also I could personally careless about what stages are on, but it seems to me that Matt only puts them on because of his own personal preference. I personally feel that a TO shouldn't put his own bias ahead of what the community wants, but thats just me.

You're right, for the most part I only do have them on for personal preference and that I find a large majority of the reaons they are banned silly

Here: I'm going to take $mike's post and have some fun.

Courtesy of $mike showing us something courtesy of hax

"brinstar:
*there comes a point where the only safe ground on this stage is literally its top platform. this gives a ridiculous advantage to characters with extreme air mobility such as peach and jiggs, as they are still granted plenty of room to move around/mindgame the opponent while other characters struggle just to stay on the top platform.

Certain characters have better air game, that much is true. The lava is only up there for just a few seconds, and while I do understand that a few seconds can be all it takes to flip a match you can also see the lava rising and plan accordingly. Good air game is not unbeatable air game.



*the lava makes it so that players can watch as opposing foxes, falcos and falcons take 50-60% from a stage hazard only to be hit back in for even more damage. while this can happen at any time, it becomes even more of a problem when the main stage is covered in lava and a simple throw off of one of the platforms can send an opponent into the lava for massive damage. combine this with jigglypuff's rest (which is also cancelled by the lava once jigglypuff falls into it) and it becomes blatantly obvious that this stage is not suitable for competitive play

Man, talk about using a stage hazard to your advantage! I wonder when other players will realize the have moves that will knock Jigglypuff (Aka the only character Hax has to argue with as to why Brinstar should be banned) into the lava for some damage too



*the janky shape of the floor interrupts techs and dashes. once a few of the bacteria things are broken, the parts of the stage on either side of them become walls. this makes it so that characters' techs/dashes can be stopped, interrupting combos/approaches that would otherwise work

So because the stage interrupts you and makes certain things you normally do not work it should be banned?


*the stage breaking in 2 makes it nearly an autoloss for ice climbers. nana's AI constantly forces her to fall into the lava once the stage is broken apart. see mango vs chu dat game 3

Yeah Ice Climbers get ****ed.




rainbow cruise:
*the stage shape in general encourages excessive evasion of the opponent. peepee vs m2k game 5 was an exhibition of PP running away and lasering while waiting for M2K to slip up so that he could begin a combo

PP played extremely well and smart in that game. Good example of the extremes the stage can be pushed to, however doing what PP did is extremely ****ing hard if you have never tried.



*the entire stage, especially some parts, favors fox/falco's lasers while offering no protection against them. this relates to the same problem brinstar possesses; it forces someone to approach the opponent or suffer massive damage. instead of simply the losing player being forced to approach (which goes for every stage except this and brinstar), the player going against fox/falco is forced to approach regardless if they are losing or not.


Yeah people can play pretty ****ing gay on this stage. Good thing there's a good amount of time at the start of the match to get a lead.



---

pokefloats: see rainbow cruise points
- characters with limited mobility suffer greatly on this stage (and rainbow cruise). ice climbers for example are almost impossible to win with here
- the movement of the stage encourages a "hit and run" type of gameplay. the shape makes many characters' combos become unviable as well. fox/falco (especially fox) have a big advantage here because of their ability to laser (build damage) then just get a simple grab to uair/bair or a single hit.
- the holes in some of the pokemon can often given a random death


Hax is right here, but this stage has seriously been used in tournaments in NE since '04 (if not earlier). I'd like to keep it in the community some way or another


mute city:
- this stage favors peach incredibly more than any other character in the game. her mobility allows her to always have an option to evade the opponent. her float/up b can essentially ensure that she never hits the ground while the stage is moving, while fast fallers flop like fish when getting hit at low percents. when cars come, peach's mobility (float) also allows her a big advantage because other characters need to jump/go on platforms while she can evade or have a better option than approaching the opponent via platform. all of this can also be applied to jigglypuff

Just space well and don't approach stupidly. I'm not saying that like it's easy, but really it's not an unwinnable match.

corneria:
- promotes camping because the fin allows a player who's in the lead to wait there, leaving the other opponent no choice but to go down there (approach) or lose the game. almost every time this stage is played one player will go to the fin and camp. fox and falco most notably can jump and laser from the fin while remaining safe until the opponent approaches, which can easily be predicted and punished by the player waiting in the fin. OR, if two players are fighting in either part of the stage, the one in the lead always has the option to run to the other side of the stage (doesn't matter which) because of the way the sides of the stage are separated (making it easy to punish the losing/approaching player)


Fox and Falco having a stage that helps them beat Puff and Peach? The two characters that are making such a ruckus for the other stages? BAN IT.


Nah gotta give it to Hax he makes a good point here LOL

Also I'm just debating on this for the sake of debating at this point.
I've thought over what Zach had said and I'm going to match the stage list for this and the rules for this to the rules and stages at HoG3

 

[A New England Winter]

My name is Zach

other Zach, we must duel

 

[$mike]

@matt

hax only wrote the parts about brinstar and rainbow cruise (see quotations). i wrote everything else, just fyi

but anyway, matt, i'm having a hard time understanding your argument because it's so jagged and simple-thought. you propose simple solutions to small parts of each arguments, ignoring many points for each stage. some of your arguments don't even have much to do with what i proposed.

at this point i'm pretty much debating for the sake of debating, too, or at least to lead you to considering a refined stage list for any of your future tournaments, not just this and the hog series.

Certain characters have better air game, that much is true. The lava is only up there for just a few seconds, and while I do understand that a few seconds can be all it takes to flip a match you can also see the lava rising and plan accordingly. Good air game is not unbeatable air game.

you can't "plan accordingly" when all of the lava takes up the entire stage but the top platform. even if you see it coming, it doesn't make a difference for every character but puff and peach. whether it's a few seconds or a whole minute doesn't make a difference either. as long as it unfairly affects the gameplay, it should be banned

So because the stage interrupts you and makes certain things you normally do not work it should be banned?

... yes. i said the same thing in my argument for poke floats. this only applies to certain characters, which gives others unjust advantages. in simple terms, it limits many characters. what makes you think this isn't something to be concerned about?

PP played extremely well and smart in that game. Good example of the extremes the stage can be pushed to, however doing what PP did is extremely ****ing hard if you have never tried.

pp is extremely smart and an amazing player, no doubt. but this holds no significance to an argument supporting rainbow cruise... just because pp and m2k are top caliber players doesn't mean the same situation can't be applied to ANY other players, because it can. it isn't extremely ****ing hard.

Yeah people can play pretty ****ing gay on this stage. Good thing there's a good amount of time at the start of the match to get a lead.

this goes back to what i said about brinstar's lava up there... "whether it's a few seconds or a whole minute doesn't make a difference either. as long as it unfairly affects the gameplay, it should be banned" in this case, though, the majority of time is spent away from the main boat. it just makes your argument weaker

Hax Mike is right here, but this stage has seriously been used in tournaments in NE since '04 (if not earlier). I'd like to keep it in the community some way or another

sure, just don't make it legal in tournament, lol. allow it in crews or something, idk

Just space well and don't approach stupidly. I'm not saying that like it's easy, but really it's not an unwinnable match.

lol... what simple *** advice that can be applied to any situation in the game. a lot of my argument for mute doesn't mention anything related to spacing. the majority of it talks about peach's and puff's option to EVADE and have better approaching options at all times, to put it simply

 

[MattDotZeb]

@matt

hax only wrote the parts about brinstar and rainbow cruise (see quotations). i wrote everything else, just fyi

GGz on your pokefloats and Corneria argument.

at this point i'm pretty much debating for the sake of debating, too, or at least to lead you to considering a refined stage list God for any of your future tournaments, not just this and the hog series.

Peace and Love brah.

you can't "plan accordingly" when all of the lava takes up the entire stage but the top platform. even if you see it coming, it doesn't make a difference for every character but puff and peach. whether it's a few seconds or a whole minute doesn't make a difference either. as long as it unfairly affects the gameplay, it should be banned

You can think up strategies in the time you're up there or getting up there. The lava isn't random (And if it is it's easy as hell to predict). There are always different situations a player can be in. Being on that platform is not an auto-loss. It may not be in your favor, but that is just the situation and ends very shortly after.

... yes. i said the same thing in my argument for poke floats. this only applies to certain characters, which gives others unjust advantages. in simple terms, it limits many characters. what makes you think this isn't something to be concerned about?

Only certain things on the stage limit the characters. Then again you can argue back that having certain things limiting characters is justifiable enough for a ban.

pp is extremely smart and an amazing player, no doubt. but this holds no significance to an argument supporting rainbow cruise... just because pp and m2k are top caliber players doesn't mean the same situation can't be applied to ANY other players, because it can. it isn't extremely ****ing hard.

To the extent that PP did it I disagree. I don't think it would be quite as easy for other players to do what PP did. The way PP did his camping and baiting was superb and I was more or less commenting regarding that with the "extremely ****ing hard" part.

this goes back to what i said about brinstar's lava up there... "whether it's a few seconds or a whole minute doesn't make a difference either. as long as it unfairly affects the gameplay, it should be banned" in this case, though, the majority of time is spent away from the main boat. it just makes your argument weaker

I know it does.
I'm saying that if a character gets an early lead on the boat it makes it harder for the other player to camp because they're already down. Doesn't happen all the time though so you can poke a hole into that by saying that the camper has far more time given to make up for it than the non-camper.

sure, just don't make it legal in tournament, lol. allow it in crews or something, idk

It'll probably come to that

lol... what simple *** advice that can be applied to any situation in the game. a lot of my argument for mute doesn't mention anything related to spacing. the majority of it talks about peach's and puff's option to EVADE and have better approaching options at all times, to put it simply

( ^_^)b
Best ****in advice in the world.



I responded to (in this and your last post) what I was interested in responding to.

I'm fighting a lost battle. You're right on most of these, I've just chosen the less popular side for my preference.

Does it have something to do with the fact I'm an older player and like to stick with the older stages? Yes, completely.

 

[SummerSpeedyMix]

he's coming. He's kinda proud of his postcount of 1, though.

Damn right I love my post count (2 is still okay) (also yeah i'm coming :D)

Also, sai, screaming at silent wolf along with yedi was probably one of the most fun things ever :3

 

[nuro]

matt u need to remind me about this if i somehow forget about it. i need to attend.


i didnt really read the thread too much. tldr johns, but i know there is smash and cool people so im coming

 

[pwned-by-the-poob]

What exactly is a ranking battle?

 

[Greene Archer]

My name is Zach

other Zach, we must duel

Bring it. Pistols at dawn?

 

[MattDotZeb]

What exactly is a ranking battle?

It'll be awarding points to the players based on their performance forming a ranking for NE

 

[DCLXVI]

Noooo matt stay strong on Pokefloats. It's a tradition, it wouldn't be mass MADNESS without it. I would really rather 1-2 everyone than lose every single game, but I would probably still come for friendlies.

 

[pwned-by-the-poob]

Matt I have plans early this day so what's the latest you can go?

 

[hotdogturtle]

Oh yeah, I just remembered this yesterday.

 

[MdrnDayMercutio]

Yo. What nuro said.

 

[A New England Winter]

Bring it. Pistols at dawn?

You know, I never understood that. Pistols at dawn sounds like a **** way to start a morning, because then you have to go with the rest of your daily routine afterwards.

Like, you wake up, get dressed, shoot a dude in the face, make eggs, go to work, etc.

 

[Greene Archer]

I think a misty dawn is supposed to make it more dramatic or something. Lunch would probably be best, since you could take the rest of the day off and just kinda chillax.

 

[A New England Winter]

Yeah, I think a duel at high noon would be the most appropriate. We'd have to finish it rather quickly though, as a long, 5 hour cinematic battle would probably put me into some serious traffic issues on the 95 by the time it was over.

 

[The Irish Mafia]

so what will the stagelist be? is it still being decided?

 

[A New England Winter]

so what will the stagelist be? is it still being decided?

Starts:

Final Parking Lot
McDonaldsfield
GU Story

CPs:

Mute Highway
Dream Land 64
That Chinese Place Next Door Stadium
IHOP Jungle

 

[The Irish Mafia]

you forgot ihop jungle

 

[A New England Winter]

Ah, good catch.

 

[MattDotZeb]

Okay. The stage list is now that of HoG3.

See you guys here. :D