Match-Up Chart (Outdated); please refer to the new chart.

[PEEF!]

Lmao Zelda beats ness easily

Actually, at high level that matchup approaches even.

KK you rock my world.

Re-main ICs please...

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Match-ups don't approach even. Some characters have inherent advantages over other characters and those advantages never go away (assuming it's human level play and not frame perfect) no matter how smart both players are.

Think of it like the equation y = 2x-1/x+1; as x approaches infinite y, approaches 2. Maybe certain strategies are like constants and stop working as the players get better, but the way Marth outranges all of Pichu's moves is a coefficient.

So you thing the game has a digressive metagame? I got the exact opposite feeling and i'm quite sure many people will agree with that.

Anyways, what i mean to say is the match-up itself isn't better or worse at the top level (the match-ups are constant just as the characters are constant, even if our understanding and description of the match-ups change) but the players playing at the top level will approach even (as far as score and chance to win the set). This is because as players approach the highest level they won't be falling into simple baits or making simple mistakes, but instead the opponent would have to out think or out maneuver them in order to gain a physical advantage.

An easy example would be marth vs falcon. I can explain how the match-up favors falcon in fairly objective terms, but at the same time the understanding itself allows me to still compete with falcons near my level.

 

[Rappster]

So you thing the game has a digressive metagame? I got the exact opposite feeling and i'm quite sure many people will agree with that.

i would say the metagame diverges in some places and converges in others.

matchup difficulty as skill approaches maximum will go towards even if the characters are both top 8 or so on the tierlist.

other spots, it will diverge: (kirby vs shiek, jiggs vs bowser, etc.)

 

[TheLake]

lol at ness > zelda

Ness can keep a lead?

So ness can camp zelda?

Dead people can camp zelda for crying out loud.

How ness is going to get a lead ill never know..

Oh yeah, Pk thunder....i forgot you can control that little number

my bad (:

Oh zelda > samus

But since i love you all we can just call it = i supose

except hugs

****ers too good ):

IHSB gets an honorable mention too :D

 

[giuocob]

Think of it like the equation y = 2x-1/x+1; as x approaches infinite y, approaches 2. Maybe certain strategies are like constants and stop working as the players get better, but the way Marth outranges all of Pichu's moves is a coefficient.

Don't you EVER use that analogy again.

 

[Kyu Puff]

Don't you EVER use that analogy again.

Okay... imagine the match-up is a fractal...

Spoiler

jk

Pretend you have two characters that are exactly the same. Then you make one faster, give it more range and better damage from each hit. The characters are never even -- there are some things intelligent play can't overcome.

At high levels of high/top tier play, all the characters have reasonable means of pressuring and punishing each other, but really the slightest difference in how two players are playing can effect the outcome of a match. What you're essentially describing is one player outplaying the other, landing hits and capitalizing, and ultimately outweighing their disadvantages.

But this chart tries to estimate high level of play between players of equal skill, and when two players are playing at the same level (though that doesn't always happen) there are usually clear advantages and disadvantages that make one character more likely to win.

 

[Pi]

It's the only time I have beaten SS since 2008 because I haven't been playing from 2008 up until late 2009. I didn't have my controller @ CGC 16 when he beat me, and while he beat me fair and square given the circumstances, borrowing a controller is like making a Counter Strike player suddenly play on a new mouse sensitivity. He also beat me at my first out of region event and at my first out of state event since my return, which completed a 2 year hiatus from such OOS/OOR experiences. I didn't take these circumstances so seriously, and I expect our chances of winning to be equal for the next time we play.

Also, I'm so annoyed at people who call bad days for other players when I beat them. Did he tell you he had a bad day? If you're going off of your judgment, what's your definition of a bad day? Is it when a player beats Lucky in losers finals and gets 2nd at the tournament as he did @ CGC 15? Dang, I wish my bad days were that good.

The score is 4-2 since my return in his favor. 7-5 overall in my favor.

And if we're going to discredit wins because someone had a "bad day", well, let me know. I got a few excuses for why I lost my matches, and I'd love to take my losses off the record.

Things I've learned from posters recently:

1. Every top player I've beaten has had a bad day specifically when I have beaten them.
2. If people knew how to fight Samus, I'd never win a match.
3. Those who know how to fight Samus, but have never played me, will show those better players who have lost to me how to play the matchup correctly.
4. Despite having been a consistent top 20(national) calibur player for about 5 years now, and arguably a top 10(National) player at certain points throughout my career, I lack the experience necessary to know what to do when someone decides to play "gay" against me. No one has ever tried it.
5. I beat a lot of players that are better than me because my style is too unique and new. There aren't any videos of me online and 6 years of competitive smash isn't enough for people to get the "HugS picture". Just wait another 6 years, and everyone will know how easy it is to beat me.

****, did someone say I can't beat any top falcos? Are you kidding me?
Some of you are ridiculous.

FYI I'm in a bad mood because I got caught in fully stopped freeway traffic 4 miles from my house for 1.5 hours just now. So, i figured I'd take it out in a post.

Outstanding.

Okay... imagine the match-up is a fractal...

Spoiler

jk

Pretend you have two characters that are exactly the same. Then you make one faster, give it more range and better damage from each hit. The characters are never even -- there are some things intelligent play can't overcome.

At high levels of high/top tier play, all the characters have reasonable means of pressuring and punishing each other, but really the slightest difference in how two players are playing can effect the outcome of a match. What you're essentially describing is one player outplaying the other, landing hits and capitalizing, and ultimately outweighing their disadvantages.

But this chart tries to estimate high level of play between players of equal skill, and when two players are playing at the same level (though that doesn't always happen) there are usually clear advantages and disadvantages that make one character more likely to win.

I don't agree with this, yes some moves, or characters, are inherently better than others, but the better you get as a player the better you get at avoiding situations in which you are going to get beat by a move/character.

Just because move A is better than move B, doesn't mean that player A is going to get a chance to use move A.

In a character to character example, cfalc beats samus in the air, so don't go into the air.
Marth out ranges samus with his attacks, so shield them instead of trying to beat them.
There are so many coin flips in melee, the smarter you play the less glaringly obvious your characters disadvantages become.

I use to play samus like fox, she's slow, her aerials and jumps are not spamable, I got punished and lost hard, so I slowed it down a bit, tried to only attack when I knew it would hit, made my opponents approach, stopped challenging things I discovered would probably win. Just because samus can't out fox fox, doesn't mean she can't win.

I think I understand a bit more where hugs was coming from in this post:

Red sparrow: since when is it OK to omit the application of a character's tools when deciding a matchup ratio?

And techniques used to apply inferior tools? I mean, are we supposed to just look at things "on paper" and say "well peach has this and Samus has that, so peach wins"

Ex: the ability to outwit is not necessary when a missile, that can be FC naird by peach, is used as a means to close the distance.

You see, It's about the way samus's tools are applied, not how peach's tools are better, that makes this 50/50.

Yes, peach can apply her better tools as well, but Samus's inferior tools become equal to peach's when applied correctly. However, Peach's correctly applied tools will not become better than samus's correctly applied tools. That's what I'm saying. Make sense?

 

[Kyu Puff]

I never said anything about not being able to win. I said that especially with the higher tiers disadvantages are easier to overcome, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. Think about Sheik vs Ganon. Yes there are coin flips involved in landing a hit, but if Sheik wins the coin flip she gets a chaingrab; the probability of him landing a grab, or capitalizing as hard on each hit, are much lower. That means Ganon has to win more "coin flips" (although this is a huge simplification because spacing is more complicated than this) -- i.e., outplay his opponent -- to do the same amount of damage.

 

[Pi]

I never said anything about not being able to win. I said that especially with the higher tiers disadvantages are easier to overcome, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. Think about Sheik vs Ganon. Yes there are coin flips involved in landing a hit, but if Sheik wins the coin flip she gets a chaingrab; the probability of him landing a grab, or capitalizing as hard on each hit, are much lower. That means Ganon has to win more "coin flips" (although this is a huge simplification because spacing is more complicated than this) -- i.e., outplay his opponent -- to do the same amount of damage.

I get where you are coming from

And I'll ask you this

Is it easier to eliminate options, or create them

(also doesn't ganon have a CG on sheik as well, thus allowing him to capitalize just as hard as her, from a grab? Granted his is harder to land, though.)

 

[Animal]

(not relevant) Falcon = sheik

 

[edgeluca]

I get where you are coming from

And I'll ask you this

Is it easier to eliminate options, or create them

(also doesn't ganon have a CG on sheik as well, thus allowing him to capitalize just as hard as her, from a grab? Granted his is harder to land, though.)

I think sheik's grab range is better, plus obviously she's faster.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I think it's easier to eliminate options. This opinion is created largely by the existence of Jigglypuff's duck, Sheik's duck, Sheik's body contortions, frame data, the existence of the Shine, c-c-c-c-c-combo breaker, and crouch canceling.

 

[1048576]

As long as we're doing this abstract theory BS, what exactly does high level mean? If you include too few people, then you have too small a sample size, and matchups are dictated by individual player quirks. If you include too many people, the matchups will be false to our current knowledge.

Matchups get more even the better you get, even if just because it takes fewer hits to die. If you land a hit 75% of the time and we both need two hits to win, I win more often than if we both need 3 hits to win.

 

[Snowmanthatknows]

Can we start discussing Kirby, I really don't think he's all that bad to be second to last.

I'm not smart enough to keep up with this kind of talk above me.

 

[Winston]

As long as we're doing this abstract theory BS, what exactly does high level mean? If you include too few people, then you have too small a sample size, and matchups are dictated by individual player quirks. If you include too many people, the matchups will be false to our current knowledge.

The thing is we aren't looking at data really for this chart, so small sample size isn't as much an issue. The matchup chart (hopefully) is the result of analyzing how matchups play out, not tournament results or anything.

Granted, "individual player quirks" among the very top players may create bias in their perception of matchups, but even so it's the peak of the metagame as we know it, so we go with it.

Matchups get more even the better you get, even if just because it takes fewer hits to die. If you land a hit 75% of the time and we both need two hits to win, I win more often than if we both need 3 hits to win.

Aren't you ignoring the other half of the picture - that the "landing a hit 75% of the time" thing changes with skill level?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

The top level of play isn't the top percentile of players. The top level is a broad play style classification combined with certain basic assumptions like tech skill.

 

[Fletch]

Can we start discussing Kirby, I really don't think he's all that bad to be second to last.

A lot of people would actually argue that he's not low enough.

 

[Pi]

I think it's easier to eliminate options. This opinion is created largely by the existence of Jigglypuff's duck, Sheik's duck, Sheik's body contortions, frame data, the existence of the Shine, c-c-c-c-c-combo breaker, and crouch canceling.

I also think it's easier to eliminate options
Which is why I feel that the better you get as a player, the more options you're going to be able to eliminate, thus evening out the matchup.

 

[Geist]

I think it's less about the matchups becoming more even, but more about the player being a stronger determining factor in matches at higher level play.

 

[giuocob]

Looks like there's good agreement on most of Samus's matchups.

So...on to doc?

 

[t3h Icy]

Well nobody has said anything about a lot of the remaining match-ups, unless you want the chart to entirely reflect HugS' opinion on Samus.

DK > Samus
Falcon = Samus
Jigglypuff > Samus
Samus >> Yoshi
Samus = Zelda

Haven't had a firm conclusion:

DK > Luigi
Link > Samus
Marth >> Samus
Peach > Samus
Samus > Doc
Samus > Falco
Samus > Mario
Samus > Pikachu
Sheik > Samus

 

[Snowmanthatknows]

A lot of people would actually argue that he's not low enough.

Pfft, no way.

 

[PEEF!]

Falco = Samus. This chart will totally lose any credibility if it says Samus>Falco

 

[Geist]

DK > Samus
Falcon = Samus
Jigglypuff > Samus
Samus >> Yoshi
Samus = Zelda

Haven't had a firm conclusion:

DK > Luigi
Link > Samus
Marth >> Samus
Peach > Samus
Samus > Doc
Samus > Falco
Samus > Mario
Samus > Pikachu
Sheik > Samus

For the most part it sounds good, but for the sake of everyone else I'd just leave it at Samus = Falco. I think of it something like 55:45 Samus anyways.
Link = Samus imo.

 

[giuocob]

Looks like Luigi > ICs just kind of fell by the wayside somewhere...

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I still say ICs = Luigi if anybody cares.

 

[JPOBS]

Falco = Samus. This chart will totally lose any credibility if it says Samus>Falco

agreed.
10falcosrape

 

[kendell9000]

I think this is accurate expect for roy needs a slight change against link a -2 should work

 

[Blistering Speed]

I think Falco vs Samus needs more discussion before we move on. Just leaving it as equals because it's closer to the consensus is a bit of a cop out. I mean, I'd say Falco has the advantage, but I also think if anyone knows what they're talking about in that matchup it's HugS.

HugS, hugs, Hugo, name search opinion plz.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

still dont get why people think samus beats doc or falco

 

[null55]

samus is a complete f*g

/discussion

 

[edgeluca]

samus is a complete f*g

/discussion

no u


Also, I think Samus vs Sheik should only be Sheik>Samus. Samus can combo sheik pretty well, and she's got really good ways to edgegaurd sheik. She also has a guaranteed charge shot on sheik. Sheik does have a gauranteed setup for a kill, and the needles, but otherwise, I dont think the matchup is too bad. Sheik is also easy to CC.
Also, Samus=Peach is correct IMO. Peach doesn't have a lot on samus. Samus can combo and kill peach better, peach is only better at camping and being gay

 

[JPOBS]

She also has a guaranteed charge shot on sheik.

which is what?

 

[NJzFinest]

Samus is a cool

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roGXwMN-LGg

 

[Geist]

So good IHSB, so goooood.

@Macman
I always thought most people usually went for Doc = Samus.

 

[edgeluca]

which is what?

dthrow wd back charge shot

 

[Kanelol]

samus ***** sheik

imo

where you at hugs

 

[victra♥]

Samus is a cool

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roGXwMN-LGg

wow that first stock was intense sex

and yeah...down throw wd back charge shot on sheik lol.

 

[Pi]

Falcon > Samus - Reliable combo's, great OoS punish, Decent approach, Decent finishers; Poor recovery, Unreliable ways to handle missiles
Gannon >> Samus - Reliable approach, good edge guard, okay recovery, reliable finishers; Poor OoS punish
Marth > samus - Reach advantage, Reliable way of dealing with missiles, decent edge guard; Poor recovery, Unreliable finishers, Poor combo's
Peach = Samus - Handles missiles well, Generally hard to CC, Great recovery; Poor reach - easily UB'd, Unreliable approach, Unreliable finishers till 150% + but same for samus
Jiggs > Samus - Good approach, Great OoS punish, great recovery, decent edge guard; Unreliable combo's, Unreliable finishers, No combo's/unreliable combo's into rest (Missiles are odd in this matchup)
Fox => Samus - Great speed & priority, Decent edge guard, Lasers are good for damage, reliable finishers; Poor recovery, CCable, easy to get off stage & edge guard
Falco <= Samus - Reliable finisher, Good priority, map control; Unreliable approach, easily UB'd, poor recovery

 

[TheManaLord]

First off: the kind of play you're talking about is perfectionist . It's about mindgames at top level because people can't play perfectly. Of course, both things are factors.

And ness is so ****ing light. Zelda's best asset has sick knockback. Dsmash ***** ness. Tell it like it is lake. Kk just hatin on me too cute I'll come to Canada sometime again for real but idk u know me