Match-Up Chart (Outdated); please refer to the new chart.

[otg]

I can't wait til we get to Doc and all the people who don't use him tell me what his matchups are like.

 

[PEEF!]

I can't wait til we get to Doc and all the people who don't use him tell me what his matchups are like.

Wouldnt that be quite the role reversal. A taste of your own medicine.

 

[JPOBS]

I can't wait til we get to Doc and all the people who don't use him tell me what his matchups are like.

well its not like the docs themselves are united on which matchups are good and bad for doc so non-docs wont be the only people you have to convince

 

[otg]

Wouldnt that be quite the role reversal. A taste of your own medicine.

Yeah, because you clearly see me telling you what Icies matchups are like. Go back to ripping off people with talent and fighting terrible sheiks.

 

[KAOSTAR]

I can't wait til we get to Doc and all the people who don't use him tell me what his matchups are like.

Lol, I kno the feeling. These days everyone knows everything about every character because somehow thru some association they have seen somebody do decently with a character.

my best friends 2nd cousins uncles sister does really well with yoshi.

Yoshi>>fox for sure.

 

[rhan]

Falco = Samus. This chart will totally lose any credibility if it says Samus>Falco

How will it lose credibility when it's the truth?

 

[t3h Icy]

Updated:

DK > Samus
Jigglypuff > Samus
Samus >> Yoshi
Samus = Zelda
Sheik > Samus

Still Discussing:

DK > Luigi
Link > Samus
Samus > Doc
Samus > Falco
Samus > Mario
Samus > Pikachu
Ness > Zelda

On to Mario and Doc. Since these two are arguably the two most identical characters and they happen to be together on the chart, we're doing them together. Match-ups in brackets are leftover from previous discussion.

Mario << Jigglypuff
Doc/Mario << Marth (Mario < Marth)
Doc < Jigglypuff
Doc/Mario < Falco (Doc = Falco)
Doc/Mario < Falcon
Doc/Mario < Fox (Doc = Fox)
Doc/Mario < Ganon
Doc/Mario < Peach
Doc/Mario < Sheik
Mario < Ice Climbers
Doc = Ice Climbers
Doc = Mario
Doc/Mario = Luigi
Doc/Mario = Samus (Mario > Samus)*
Mario = DK (Mario > DK)
Doc > DK
Doc > Ness
Doc > Pikachu
Doc > Young Link
Doc > Zelda
Doc/Mario > Link
Doc/Mario > Mewtwo
Doc/Mario > Mr.G&W
Mario >> Kirby
Mario >> Ness
Mario >> Pikachu
Mario >> Young Link (Mario > Young Link)
Mario >> Zelda
Doc/Mario >> Bowser
Doc/Mario >> Roy
Doc/Mario >> Yoshi
Doc >>> Kirby
Doc/Mario >>> Pichu

*This was from before, despite being a flip-flop from most recent discussion.

 

[NJzFinest]

I'mma have to search through the DK forums for some DK vs Doc/Mario discussion I had in the past.

I personally think it's DK's advantage, but I would like to see what Mexican says. I think he agrees.

 

[otg]

Ok A.) putting them together is ********.

B.) Dk vs. Doc is probably like 55:45 dk which in this chart is even.

 

[thesage]

@themanalord: Ness is in the middle in terms of weight. He's a little lighter than Mario.

Ness' maneuverability means that unless Zelda is in the lead, Ness can platform camp her on every stage except FoD and FD. The hardest part of this matchup for both characters is getting a hit in, but if Zelda is in the lead, at least Ness has a chance of catching up to her. Zelda has 0% chance of catching up to Ness if he's in the lead.

Ness can combo zelda with his fair and dair.

They both edgeguard each other well.

UmbreonMow, an accomplished Zelda and Ness player, has stated that this matchup is in Ness' favor. I can dig up the post if you really want me to...

 

[Sasha]

"Arguably the most identical" =/= "exactly the same." Discussing them together is dumb.

Also, I agree with everything otg says/said/will say regarding Doc.

 

[JPOBS]

im also strongly against discussing them together

also, doc is not even close to even with fox or falco thats just stupid

 

[Pi]

Ok A.) putting them together is ********.

B.) Dk vs. Doc is probably like 55:45 dk which in this chart is even.

Nope you're wrong on account of a bunch of stuff I've seen & heard from people and video's and some **** I'm about to point out that you'll just overlook any way because since it's your main you know best

 

[PEEF!]

Doc<Jiggs?

My 2nd cousins sister's girlfriend said its = or even >

Also, Doc and Mario need to be separate.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

im also strongly against discussing them together

also, doc is not even close to even with fox or falco thats just stupid

t rue

 

[t3h Icy]

Okay just Doc then.

Doc << Marth
Doc < Falco (Doc = Falco)
Doc < Falcon
Doc < Fox (Doc = Fox)
Doc < Ganon
Doc < Jigglypuff
Doc < Peach
Doc < Sheik
Doc = Ice Climbers
Doc = Mario
Doc = Luigi
Doc = Samus
Doc > DK
Doc > Link
Doc > Mewtwo
Doc > Mr.G&W
Doc > Ness
Doc > Pikachu
Doc > Young Link
Doc > Zelda
Doc >> Bowser
Doc >> Roy
Doc >> Yoshi
Doc >>> Kirby
Doc >>> Pichu

And also still discussing:

DK > Luigi
Link > Samus
Samus > Doc
Samus > Falco
Samus > Mario
Samus > Pikachu
Ness > Zelda

 

[victra♥]

eeeeeeh....seems more like doc > samus imo...

what was the argument for samus > pikachu?

 

[Merkuri]

I think the argument is that Samus is a better character. It's like Fox > Doc. You'd have to make an argument as to why Fox does not > Doc rather than the other way around.

 

[KAOSTAR]

I think you would have to make an argument that disproves the general consensus if there is one.

then better character

#not actually making a judgement or really adding anything lol#

 

[ChivalRuse]

eeeeeeh....seems more like doc > samus imo...

Nah. Doc has the tools to keep up with Samus, but he doesn't have the advantage.

what was the argument for samus > pikachu?

It just seems hard to pressure Samus because of her CC and up-b out of shield. Samus also has the range advantage, meaning she can poke Pikachu's awful shield to her heart's content with ftilts and jab cancels. Running away from her does no good, as Samus has the superior projectiles and is under no obligation to approach. As far as survivability, it seems it would be difficult to tailspike Samus. Pikachu is on the light side, so Samus shouldn't have too much trouble KOing him. Pikachu's only boon in that match-up seems to be his upsmash - but he gets early upsmash KOs on every character, thus, given the advantages I just listed, I feel like Samus could reasonably be said to have the upper hand.

Pikachu Samus matchup is pretty good, but I think Samus has a slight advantage. Its probably >, but it wouldn't bother me if it was =.

ChivalRuse got it with range. Samus's tilts eat Pikachu to pieces.
Easy to KO, no real pressure, gets CC dtilt/dsmash, etc.

One thing Pika has going is his ability to destroy bombs and gimp Samus's recovery. It's not too hard to hit her with a well placed tail spike, Pika really only has to watch for surprize Nairs. Thundershock aimed well is good for samus gimps.

I think it's samus>pika

Samus > Pikachu

 

[Rappster]

Doc<Jiggs?

My 2nd cousins sister's girlfriend said its = or even >

Also, Doc and Mario need to be separate.

i wish my sister had a gf.
too much angst in my household

 

[victra♥]

i wish my sister had a gf.
too much angst in my household

omg lol. very nice.

 

[Shroomed]

samus isn't that hard as doc IMO

IHSB was the toughest samus i've ever played (harder than hugS imo)

and jus cuz a char is someone's main doesnt mean they know the most about that char

DK vs doc is like even IMO

**** JIGGLYPUFF

 

[edgeluca]

Falcon > Samus - Reliable combo's, great OoS punish, Decent approach, Decent finishers; Poor recovery, Unreliable ways to handle missiles
Gannon >> Samus - Reliable approach, good edge guard, okay recovery, reliable finishers; Poor OoS punish
Marth > samus - Reach advantage, Reliable way of dealing with missiles, decent edge guard; Poor recovery, Unreliable finishers, Poor combo's
Peach = Samus - Handles missiles well, Generally hard to CC, Great recovery; Poor reach - easily UB'd, Unreliable approach, Unreliable finishers till 150% + but same for samus
Jiggs > Samus - Good approach, Great OoS punish, great recovery, decent edge guard; Unreliable combo's, Unreliable finishers, No combo's/unreliable combo's into rest (Missiles are odd in this matchup)
Fox => Samus - Great speed & priority, Decent edge guard, Lasers are good for damage, reliable finishers; Poor recovery, CCable, easy to get off stage & edge guard
Falco <= Samus - Reliable finisher, Good priority, map control; Unreliable approach, easily UB'd, poor recovery

I agree with everything, except Ganon>>Samus.
It should only be Ganon>Samus IMO

 

[Pi]

I agree with everything, except Ganon>>Samus.
It should only be Ganon>Samus IMO

Idk
I hate gannon
I've been less successful finding ways to fight him than I have at sheik & puff

 

[A Pimp Named Slickback]

I really do think Marth is worse for Samus than Ganon

or that they're around the same

If ganon >> samus, then marth definitely >> samus

 

[VGmasta]

I doubt Falco or Fox goes even with Doc.
If Falcon > Doc, then definitely Falco > Doc and Fox > Doc

And I feel like Sheik >> Doc. She has all those spammable tilts that lead to gauranteed combos. If Doc is at 60% or higher, any of Sheik tilts connects into a f-air which puts Doc in a terrible spot off stage.

 

[otg]

I'll only discuss the matchups I know, and I'll gladly argue any of them if people want insight.

Doc << Sheik
Doc << Falco (or maybe just <, I think I'm terrible at the matchup)
Doc < Marth
Doc < Fox (or =, **** is really not bad at all)
Doc = Jiggs (or >, frankly this is one of those scenarios where most of the Docs think Doc ***** this matchups, and the top 3 jiggs HATE fighting doc or say it's even. yet once again, all the people who don't main either character are like "Doc gets ***** by Jiggs", so good **** smash community).
Doc < Falcon
Doc => Icies
Doc = Samus
Doc > GnW
Doc = Zelda
Doc >>> Ness
Doc >> Pika
Doc >>> Kirby
Doc >>> Pichu

I might be forgetting some more low tiers, and yes I ignored a few top/high tiers/mid tiers. I don't have enough exp. against them to comment.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

I'll only discuss the matchups I know, and I'll gladly argue any of them if people want insight.

Doc <<< Sheik
Doc << Falco (or maybe just <, I think I'm terrible at the matchup)
Doc < Marth
Doc < Fox (or =, **** is really not bad at all)
Doc = Jiggs (or >, frankly this is one of those scenarios where most of the Docs think Doc ***** this matchups, and the top 3 jiggs HATE fighting doc or say it's even. yet once again, all the people who don't main either character are like "Doc gets ***** by Jiggs", so good **** smash community).
Doc <<< Falcon
Doc => Icies
Doc = Samus
Doc > GnW
Doc = Zelda
Doc >>> Ness
Doc >> Pika
Doc >>> Kirby
Doc >>> Pichu

I might be forgetting some more low tiers, and yes I ignored a few top/high tiers/mid tiers. I don't have enough exp. against them to comment.

in bold is what i changed
doc = peach

 

[otg]

Sup Yedi, you would know the Icies better then me, you play vs. them more. Doc v. Fox, I'm with on that one, I see it around like a 55:45 - 60:40 kinda deal, < is fine. As for Doc << Falcon, I think you are TERRRIBLE at the matchup (especially after watching you play it this past weekend), it's really not that bad at all.

I def disagree with Doc v. Peach tho, that's atleast < in peach's favor.

 

[smasher32]

I'll only discuss the matchups I know, and I'll gladly argue any of them if people want insight.

Doc << Sheik
Doc << Falco (or maybe just <, I think I'm terrible at the matchup)
Doc < Marth
Doc = Fox (or =, **** is really not bad at all)
Doc = Jiggs (or >, frankly this is one of those scenarios where most of the Docs think Doc ***** this matchups, and the top 3 jiggs HATE fighting doc or say it's even. yet once again, all the people who don't main either character are like "Doc gets ***** by Jiggs", so good **** smash community).
Doc < Falcon
Doc => Icies
Doc = Samus
Doc > GnW
Doc = Zelda
Doc >>> Ness
Doc >> Pika
Doc <<<Kirby
Doc >>> Pichu

I might be forgetting some more low tiers, and yes I ignored a few top/high tiers/mid tiers. I don't have enough exp. against them to comment.

My changes are in bold.

Seriously though, I feel like Fox vs. Doc is really even. All doc (potentially) has to do is get one grab at any percent and fox is done. Meanwhile, fox has to play the keep away game with multiple air-shine attack combos. Yea, doc is vulnerable to shine spike, but that's about equal to fox getting caped, baired, etc.

 

[ihavespaceblondes]

samus isn't that hard as doc IMO

IHSB was the toughest samus i've ever played (harder than hugS imo)

Really? I thought HugS usually beat you? More importantly, I assumed his "wait space wait space wait wait ftilt" style would be WAY more successful vs Doc, considering that I get impatient -> misspace something -> get wd out of shield *****.

 

[otg]

Great changes, I think your kirby's anus has a different opinion tho.

As for Doc v. Fox, it's really not as black and white as you make it out to be. First of all, getting the grab is kinda hard, and it's not guaranteed that you get a death combo/**** punish off of it. In fact, a large amount of the time you either setup a platform tech chase or it resets back to a neutral position. Now if you're **** as **** like me, that platform tech chase leads into another grab or a finisher, but I'm ****ing nasty so this doesn't really apply to other Docs.

I think the big reason Fox has an edge is his pew pew pew pew pew pew nonsense.

Really? I thought HugS usually beat you? More importantly, I assumed his "wait space wait space wait wait ftilt" style would be WAY more successful vs Doc, considering that I get impatient -> misspace something -> get wd out of shield *****.

I'm pretty sure Shroomed has beaten hugs in the one time they faced in tourney.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

i don't think doc can get around a spacies camping well at all.

falcon is bull****. he better moves to approach with. with way more range and he moves twice as fast as you. and the fact that you have a projectile doesn't matter cuz it's not gonna stop falcon from doint what he wants. and doc is like the perfects weight/fallspeed for falcon combos and dies really easily to them

 

[otg]

i don't think doc can get around a spacies camping well at all.

falcon is bull****. he better moves to approach with. with way more range and he moves twice as fast as you. and the fact that you have a projectile doesn't matter cuz it's not gonna stop falcon from doint what he wants. and doc is like the perfects weight/fallspeed for falcon combos and dies really easily to them

Falcon's approach is really terrible tho and you have waaay more priority then he does, so it's not like it's free for him to just rush you down and do stuff. You can also CC/CC grab a lot of the **** he does and once he's offstage **** is free. Idk, after watching you play the matchup I think youre just mad biased.

Also, look at how the WC Doc's do vs. Scar/SS. I'm pretty sure they both have positive tourney records vs. Scar and Shroomed has beaten Jeff the last few times they've played iirc.

 

[Blistering Speed]

Lawl I remember when I mained Doc for like, six months. Good times.

Ones I know:
Doc = Jiggs (it MIGHT be a very small Doc advantage, not enough to count on this chart though, plus yeah Mango and HBox both hate it).
Fox>Doc.
Falco>Doc.
Falcon>Doc.
Sheik> or >>Doc (seriously, **** this *****).

Fox and Falco are also possiblymaybearguablyidkcouldbe >>Doc. Both get much worse when they really know the matchup.

 

[otg]

Fox and Falco are also possiblymaybearguablyidkcouldbe >>Doc. Both get much worse when they really know the matchup.

And the same thing can be said vs. Falcon/Ganon/Icies and Samus, yet all of them get away with either equal, slight disadvantage or even ADVANTAGE on spacies, wtf.

 

[Wenbobular]

Whoever said Doc is the perfect weight to combo ... umm ... not really
Mario (and presumably Doc) get out of hitstun quick, so unless they're west coastin' it up you're not going to get Uair chains or Nair chains really
I think it's a lot like playing vs Luigi - sometimes you get something lengthy but most of the time you're just looking for Nair -> Knee
I also find it really hard to throw -> Knee Mario, which kinda takes away Falcon's awesome grab -> finisher ~_~

 

[Blistering Speed]

So because some matchups are incorrect, we should keep them all incorrect?

And none of them have any advantage on either of the spacies, plus Samus and IC's are genuinely even with Falco imo.

 

[NJzFinest]

I've only used Doc in friendlies, but from what it seems, PLZ correct me if I'm wrong, Marth seems to be his hardest matchup. Thing about Doc, he can potentially kill Fox, Falco, and Sheik off one grab. Yes, getting that grab is awfully hard, but Marth is pretty hard to grab too. Eventhough you can get some nice combos off Marth from a grab, it isn't anything similar to the potential vs Sheik/Spacies.

I have a really oldschool mindset when it comes to Doc. Like, when all of those japanese Doc players came to American for OC and ***** a bunch of people.

I want to say, Marth>>, Spacies and Sheik >.