Match-Up Chart (Outdated); please refer to the new chart.

[Lovage]

fox > doc not >>

 

[Merkuri]

and unknown didn't even camp that hard

Unknown hardly camped HMW at all. He simply outplayed him, his spacing was better and he missed less technical stuff. I don't think that a valid point in Fox >> Doc at all. What makes that match a better representation of the matchup than this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxRTpKl1-_E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeNYv9Z7jH4

 

[KAOSTAR]

this thread is sooo much like deadliest warrior lol.

credits to toph for pointing it out.

 

[HugS™]

LoL Shroomed, how many god **** times do I have to tell you I didn't have my controller.

You're getting rocked the next time we face without me having a serious handicap

 

[1048576]

Can you please leave that part of the quote out? That's COMPLETELY UNNECESSARY. And for the record I took in every word you said about that matchup. I just wanna hear the words again. Sometimes it helps to hear good advice more than once.

There you go sayin' ****s unnecessary again, lol.

Marth >> Doc all day. Marths gotta learn to zone and **** instead of running away fairing. Doc backed up against the edge = -1 stock.

 

[SmashMac]

Sure you can CG starting at 0%. As a matter of fact there are plenty of weighted characters that technically can be CGd starting at 0%. However, doing that in tournament is hardly feasible if you consider both players being on at least the same skill level. Most likely the player playing the space-animal will know how to in-&-out DI, where you mix the DI's in between CGs from right/left/neutral, depending on the situation. No one of any decent skill level will just hold the analog stick in one of those directions the whole time (or not hold). I've tried CGing Shiz/KSN + other skilled players plenty of times at 0% and I've found more options than one that could have lead to a better overall percentage damage increase on that grabbed character instead of trying to keep the CG going at 0%.

As far as the Doc vs. Fox situation, Fox has the advantage. When considering both players on the same skill level, Fox is 200% in the lead already, before the match even started. He can out-space, out-kill, out almost everything Doc. Doc's chance in this match-up is solely (90% or so) dependent on the person playing him's knowledge/experience of the match-up and overall skill level.

I disagree with Doc > Samus. The match-up is more-so just 'odd' as opposed to anything else. If anything it's either Samus > Doc or Samus = Doc as far as that match-up is concerned. I think if you play on the defensive in this match-up you're better off.

That's all I have time to reply with for now. When I get home from work I'll look into the thread more in-depth.

 

[smasher32]

LoL Shroomed, how many god **** times do I have to tell you I didn't have my controller.

You're getting rocked the next time we face without me having a serious handicap

It sure smells like johns in here.

Doc's grab on a Fox is not equivalent to a Jiggs grab on Fox. If Fox has to not DI at all to get re-grabbed at 0-10%. Doc's upthrow chaingrab is gauranteed from 20%-60% as long as Doc follows Fox's DI. After that, Fox can jump out. If Doc decides to throw Fox off stage after the chaingrab, Doc still has to edgeguard Fox.

Doc has to work kinda hard to ever get any grabs on Fox. How's Doc actually supposed to grab a Fox that actually moves around the whole time. Fox beats Doc in attack priority, running speed, falling speed, jumping height, and grab range. Doc is too susceptible to being camped/baited again and again by Fox. Doc has to respect whatever game Fox decides to play. Fox doesn't have to think as much as Doc in the match up. Fox just has to move around and shine everytime.

The gif on the previous page shows fox CAN get grabbed at low percent. Also, once up throw doesn't work, just switch to down throw. If platforms are in play, its a different story, but you have to assume the doc can adapt and work around it (basically, anything otg does).

I really think doc = fox. Doc's combo potential and gimping are just as good as Fox (imo, obviously). The only thing Fox has over doc is the lasers, but that's about it really.

 

[PEEF!]

Funny how you're correcting my comment on you as player rather than what I said about Doc lol. If I'm wrong, then I'm wrong. But at least give me to chance to learn as a player and tell me why I'm wrong. This thread is about informing people on matchups right?

This is a good point. Way too much ad hominem in this discussion and it should be cut out completely.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

(basically, anything otg does).

you mean anything yedi does

 

[otg]

you mean anything yedi does

Homie.... I definitely taught you everything about everything.

 

[Magus420]

Who said anything about holding the same direction the whole time? Mixing DIs doesn't matter when you're supposed to be doing it off reaction anyway. If the player needs to predict/guess their DI to pull it off at that percent then yeah, they're better off doing something else.

 

[JPOBS]

Unknown hardly camped HMW at all. He simply outplayed him, his spacing was better and he missed less technical stuff. I don't think that a valid point in Fox >> Doc at all. What makes that match a better representation of the matchup than this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxRTpKl1-_E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeNYv9Z7jH4

I'll tell you what makes unknowns match a better representation than the L0zr match. Within the first 25 seconds of the first game, L0zr jumps into 2 grabs. The first is a he rushes into a upsmsh that HMW chases with a grab, and the second, he throws a full hopped bair into HMW's dash dance and gets grabbed->upair->fsmashed.
second stock, he gets grabbed twice again, the second leading to a upthrow kobe.
3rd stock he comes down, and immediately jumps into yet ANOTHER chain grab that he was fortunate enough to have HMW mess up.

im not even going to bother counting the rest of the set, l0zr is already doing it wrong.

unknown only got grabbed TWICE THE ENTIRE SET because he was playing smart and camping. What are you talking about unknown didnt camp? he literally spent almost the entire time on the platforms, HMW's couldnt approach at all, he got next to 0 grabs because unknown would fall down with well spaced bairs and then retreat, wtf was hmw supposed to do?

My point is, L0zr arggo playstyle lead to him being combo'd and chaingrabbed and he never had control so the matchup is a lot easier for HMW.

Watch unknown's set, and he is in control the entire time. At no point (except the beginning) is HMW even close to having a shot at winning. He is almost at an entire stocks disadvantage the entire time and with no immediate means of making a come back because unknown just wasnt jumping all willy nilly into his **** like l0zr was.

Or am i the only one who clearly sees the reason l0zr lost and unknown won clear as night and day?

I'm on board with this. I've seen this argument before and I'm not opposed to Fox >> Doc, but I'm just curious why this strategy doesn't apply to characters above Doc? I'm also not entirely convinced that one tournament set can be your entire basis for a matchup, there are countless vids of these guys beating tons of top spacies and I'm sure they were getting camped mad homo like. Regardless, I'm still not opposed to Fox >> Doc, I just think it needs more analysis.

I know what you mean.
To answer your question though, the reason this strategy doesnt apply to characters above doc (or atleast to a less extent) is because the characters above doc have some combination of increased mobility/better projectile/******** priority/better punishes that makes camping them in the same way a little more difficult/impossible.

 

[PEEF!]

I agree with JPOBS.

If I want to work on my fox platform camp game, I watch that set. It was extremely efficient camping, and unknown spent almost zero time going toe to toe with HMW. Camping a set at its finest.

 

[Pi]

Sure you can CG starting at 0%. As a matter of fact there are plenty of weighted characters that technically can be CGd starting at 0%. However, doing that in tournament is hardly feasible if you consider both players being on at least the same skill level. Most likely the player playing the space-animal will know how to in-&-out DI, where you mix the DI's in between CGs from right/left/neutral, depending on the situation. No one of any decent skill level will just hold the analog stick in one of those directions the whole time (or not hold). I've tried CGing Shiz/KSN + other skilled players plenty of times at 0% and I've found more options than one that could have lead to a better overall percentage damage increase on that grabbed character instead of trying to keep the CG going at 0%.

As far as the Doc vs. Fox situation, Fox has the advantage. When considering both players on the same skill level, Fox is 200% in the lead already, before the match even started. He can out-space, out-kill, out almost everything Doc. Doc's chance in this match-up is solely (90% or so) dependent on the person playing him's knowledge/experience of the match-up and overall skill level.

I disagree with Doc > Samus. The match-up is more-so just 'odd' as opposed to anything else. If anything it's either Samus > Doc or Samus = Doc as far as that match-up is concerned. I think if you play on the defensive in this match-up you're better off.

That's all I have time to reply with for now. When I get home from work I'll look into the thread more in-depth.

Mac, you should go to linguini's tournament, I'm driving down there we can look at the samus doc matchup in depth!

 

[Shroomed]

man, you guys go into such depth lol

im takin notes!

 

[TheManaLord]

@themanalord: Ness is in the middle in terms of weight. He's a little lighter than Mario.

Ness' maneuverability means that unless Zelda is in the lead, Ness can platform camp her on every stage except FoD and FD. The hardest part of this matchup for both characters is getting a hit in, but if Zelda is in the lead, at least Ness has a chance of catching up to her. Zelda has 0% chance of catching up to Ness if he's in the lead.

Ness can combo zelda with his fair and dair.

They both edgeguard each other well.

UmbreonMow, an accomplished Zelda and Ness player, has stated that this matchup is in Ness' favor. I can dig up the post if you really want me to...

oh please i've played umbreonmow in tournament in like 02 lmao i learned all the zelda there is to know from his ancient ****

he's **** old i don't care what he had to say about the matchup

 

[ChivalRuse]

oh please i've played umbreonmow in tournament in like 02

Nice join date.

 

[TheManaLord]

I had dial up Internet and lived on a mountain.

 

[JesiahTEG]

Mow was easily a top 10 player all the way up until late 2007. (Yeah, even that late but he never played in tournament so no one knew)

 

[NJzFinest]

No he wasn't.

Ken, Isai, Mew2King, NEO, PC Chris, KDJ, Tink, FastLikeTree, King, Bum, HugS, Dope, Vidjo, KeepSpeedN, DaShizWiz, Azen, Captain Jack, Bombsoldier, and I could keep going lol.

He stopped attending tourneys pretty early on, and he eventually was only good with Zelda (used to use Fox and Mew2, dunno what happened). "Big name" players came out 05/06, doubt a non-tourney attending Zelda main could still be one of the best players in the world lol. Def the best Zelda and a good player, but top 10? Naw.

 

[BunBun]

Def the best Zelda.

Cosmo is changing this.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

cosmo already has

 

[TheManaLord]

He's trying but he's far from perfect meta. There is a lot of zel attention these days the lake as well

 

[Merkuri]

Why don't you try again Mana? You're on these boards so much so you obviously still love the game and yet you hardly travel to tournaments despite living in a great smash region. It's pretty silly actually.

 

[PEEF!]

He's trying but he's far from perfect meta. There is a lot of zel attention these days the lake as well

I know no Zelda that can take repeated matches off Kels.

Oh wait...

Cosmo.

He's coming to POE3, we will see how he does.

 

[VGmasta]

There you go sayin' ****s unnecessary again, lol.

Marth >> Doc all day. Marths gotta learn to zone and **** instead of running away fairing. Doc backed up against the edge = -1 stock.

Yeah, but now I mean it in a non-jokey manner. That post was like a punch in my face. Not even kidding.

But yeah, I say Marth's g@y. But I'll leave it to "the best Doc" to talk up Marth and all the other matchups that he says no other Doc player is really contributing to... *nods head*

That looks impossible!! Thanks for the insight though Magus. It must work since 98% of everyone in here says it does. I like that the clip is showing a green Doc.

EDITED for typos

 

[SmashMac]

The gif on the previous page shows fox CAN get grabbed at low percent. Also, once up throw doesn't work, just switch to down throw. If platforms are in play, its a different story, but you have to assume the doc can adapt and work around it (basically, anything otg does).

I really think doc = fox. Doc's combo potential and gimping are just as good as Fox (imo, obviously). The only thing Fox has over doc is the lasers, but that's about it really.

Anyone that knows anything with Doctor Mario has always known he can CG at 0% on spacies, that's nothing new. That being feasible is completely different however. Doc = Fox is false 90% of the time for the reasons I stated before.

Who said anything about holding the same direction the whole time? Mixing DIs doesn't matter when you're supposed to be doing it off reaction anyway. If the player needs to predict/guess their DI to pull it off at that percent then yeah, they're better off doing something else.

The "holding the same direction the whole time" thing was only an example comparing average players to above-average players. It wasn't directed towards anyone.

P.S. - Lol @ people that don't even main Doc. in a tournament setting consistently disagreeing with people that main him.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Cosmo's no joke.

 

[thesage]

I wanna play him and see if he can beat my platform camping. THIS IS BRAWL.

But yea, this is my last post in this thread cuz this is really the only matchup and I can discuss with any sort of knowledge cuz Zelda is a simple character lol.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

i wish i had my own personal magus.

http://www.dolphin-emu.com/news.php

 

[Cosmo!]

mana is right I'm very far from my potential with this character. I still have tons to learn.

I squandered pretty bad last tourney actually but I'm bringing my best to POEIII.

I'll play you all there

Zelda = Samus

 

[BunBun]

Whattttt?!

I always thought it was Zelda > Samus.

 

[VGmasta]

DK's edgeguarding ***** Doc's recovery. Like DK can cover a lot of Doc's recovery options with his b-air and his Up-B.

I think Falcon and Fox beat Doc because baiting is such a large part of the melee metagame. And look at how much more attack range, attack priority, running speed, jumping height and falling speed those two characters have that Doc. The ability for Fox and Falcon to bait so consistently is what truly gives them the edge on Doc.

 

[NJzFinest]

dk=doc

Do Docs agree with this?

 

[ChivalRuse]

Whattttt?!

I always thought it was Zelda > Samus.

Zelda's reaaaally easy to read ...

 

[ihavespaceblondes]

Zelda's reaaaally easy to read ...

Yeah, she's spectacularly easy to read. I know that if I do anything, she's going to kick me. The fact that I know I'm going to get kicked before it happens doesn't really help much, though.

 

[ChivalRuse]

So bait a kick and punish with dash attack? There are enough options in this game to get around something when you know it's gonna happen.

 

[Pi]

So bait a kick and punish with dash attack? There are enough options in this game to get around something when you know it's gonna happen.

Bait a kick...
Why would they kick preemptively when they could just wait for the samus to touch their shield. Seriously, samus's moves are slow, all her smashes & tilts seem to be safely kickable, dtilt she might be ducking too low, but it also is fairly laggy so even if the zelda misses we probably can't get a punish off.

Basically if we touch her shield we're more than likely going to get kicked.

So grab her you say

Kk, oop spotdodged/missed now I get kicked any way.

It's mad guessing game with samus. Characters with good OoS punishes generally do well against samus.

Then there is ganon who does well against samus for other reasons...

 

[ChivalRuse]

Zelda's offense sucks. Why would you attack her in the first place? Missile pressure alone is enough to force her into the air where her shield game is nonexistent and the ease of reading her begins to pay dividends.

 

[BunBun]

Yeah, let me know how that turns out...