Match-Up Chart (Outdated); please refer to the new chart.

[The Good Doctor]

Isn't mewtwo's body large enough to get shield poked easily?
Literally, it seems that all Zelda needs is her aerials....
So, across the stage you think you have enough time to throw a shadow ball and get below her
before she does something?

My question about kicking uncharged shadow balls was never answered.

After reading Taj's match-up guide, he also seems to give minimal respect to Zelda, and then the last sentence was one of those "Play smarter and you'll win." Usually that means it's pretty even....

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Really, i dont consider any projectile game to determine a matchup.

"At the highest level" dodging and evading projectiles isn't a character specific dilemma, its a mental and almost universal to all characters. The characters that have projectile reflecting moves (Fox, Falco, Doc, Mario, Zelda, Ness, Mewtwo*) don't rely on them to beat projectiles. They may mix them in occasionally, but overall its game mechanics (jumping, shielding, powershielding, ect) that are used.

Projectiles are not very good in melee as compared to other fighting games. Some do a good amount of damage and others have speed, but none are both fast and strong**. The ones that are slow, you evade. The ones that are strong you block. When you talk about mewtwo's uncharged shadow ball, it is neither strong nor fast. I double anyone is seriously concerned about getting hit. They won't sit and take them the whole game, but if they try to jump over one and mess up, nothing bad will happen besides taking the 3% or whatever it does.

When talking about a matchup, especially one like zelda vs mewtwo, you must consider a few things.

1) spacing tools. Who has the most range in close combat?
2) punishment from a mistake. How effectively does each combo, and on average how much damage does each combo do?
3) KO potential. What moves does each character have to kill with? Do they have lead in methods from traps or combos?

Now, for this matchup, this is how i analyze this:
1) Zelda has more range. Her dash attack, fair/bair, and fsmash are all longer ranged with more priority than mewtwo's moves (afaik his best ranged move is his bair, his fair has abysmal range, and his nair has priority but no range)
2) Mewtwo's best punishment is probably dtilt to ftilt or dthrow to dtilt. zelda's kicks are sort of like ganon's hits, they are complete punishment by themselves. Overall, i call it about even.
3) Mewtwo can kill with bthrow, uthrow, and fair. All of them require zelda to be above 120% due to her weight. To set them up, he must be very close range. Zelda's spacing tools are KO moves. Mewtwo is light and dies fairly early to them (80%-100% depending on stage location and DI).

Now, from what i'm seeing, zelda simply needs to stay close but keep mewtwo out of her zone. Mewtwo has almost no approach on zelda, and no real method of killing her without her making a mistake and letting mewtwo get in close on her.

*Mewtwo's reflecting move doesn't change the owner of the projectile
**Mewtwo and Samus' fully charged neutral b moves are both strong and fairly fast, but require a full second to charge.

 

[xbombr]

The problem is that the same can be said for Zelda. She has no real method of killing Mewtwo without him making a mistake either, especially since he's got better mobility.

I'd also argue that M2 has a much easier time gimping Zelda than she does to him. Her recovery travels a straight line and can't ride the stage at all. (M2's in a similar position, but his beastly double jump and great aerial mobility easily make up for that.) Anyway, this means that there are positions that Zelda cannot recover from and getting to a recoverable position that's safe isn't exactly easy given her aerial mobility. M2 can just knock her offstage with a tilt, grab the ledge to force Zelda onstage and hit/grab her in lag to set up for his kill moves.

Mewtwo may not be clearly better overall, but he isn't really worse either.

 

[Vulcan55]

By "good people" he means level 6 Captain Falcon.

 

[t3h Icy]

I greatly altered the chart's appearance, adding numbers, lighting the colours, reloading the character avatars, and made it less headachey, methinks.

Hopefully you guys like it.

I also fixed a few errors with Roy's match-ups in the calculations.

Updated:
Falco > Samus to Falco = Samus
Jigglypuff >>> Yoshi to Jigglypuff >> Yoshi
Mario >> Mewtwo to Mario > Mewtwo
Pikachu >> Mewtwo to Pikachu > Mewtwo

Some Agreement:
DK > Link to DK = Link
DK > Y.Link to Y.Link > DK
Doc >> Kirby to Doc >>> Kirby
Fox > Jigglypuff to Fox = Jigglypuff
Ganon >> Link to Ganon > Link
Jigglypuff > Doc to Jigglypuff = Doc
Jigglypuff >> Luigi to Jigglypuff > Luigi
Mario = DK to Mario > DK
Peach = Falco to Peach > Falco
Peach > Y.Link to Peach = Y.Link
Peach >>> Yoshi to Peach >> Yoshi
Pikachu > Yoshi to Pikachu = Yoshi
Yoshi = Pichu to Yoshi >> Pichu
Zelda > Mewtwo to Zelda ? Mewtwo

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

The problem is that the same can be said for Zelda. She has no real method of killing Mewtwo without him making a mistake either, especially since he's got better mobility.

That would only be true if there was never a conflict. In terms of winning conflicts, zelda is vastly superior.

 

[x After Dawn x]

new one looks nice. I would like to see the numbers on the old template though, just for comparison.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I really like the new one. Great improvement. I still feel like it could be slightly improved upon, but i have no real suggestions (maybe modify the "7" color, with the black and blue bordering it, it makes it hard to read those matchups at a light glance). 9.5/10 :D

 

[The Good Doctor]

That would only be true if there was never a conflict. In terms of winning conflicts, zelda is vastly superior.

To add more to that point.

On small stages, Zelda wins hands down.
On large ones, Mewtwo does alot better, but he also has to work hard for it.
Zelda on the other hand, is pretty straight forward, yet more punishing to him.
Zelda > Mewtwo at least....

 

[KAOSTAR]

I also like the new chart look

KAOSTAR, you completely ignored me. I asked which "good people" you've beaten with M2 and under which circumstances. I'm just curious, you gotta understand it's a lil farfetched to hear some random guy that plays a horrible character spouting that he's beaten "good people".

I never tried to use that to qualify myself or my knowledge of the matchup, so therefore its irrelevant. That was in response to TheManaLord saying he beats good ppl with zelda, that was me basically saying it doesnt matter, the matchup is how it is.

Kaostar. It sounds like you talk out of your *** when you simply say you "play good people" and you "know the match up."

I'm stating factual information about the nature of the matchup and relevance of strategies and all you do is say who you beat, that you agree with Taj, and stupid shadowball **** over and over. It really isn't credible. Sorry man but you just need to stop.

When matchups are close a lot of it is determined by application. The scale tips towards the character who has to put in less and gets out more. This is comparable to Fox Jiggs if you need a comparison to understand. Just think about it dude and stop repeating yourself. It's not getting changed.

I never tried to use who I have beaten or played as credibility. I started with what m2 was capable of in terms of zelda.

I didnt agree with taj, he agreed with what I said. If you hadnt noticed I was the one who suggested changing it.

I wasnt saying I played good ppl to say I know the matchup. or to be like listen to me I beat good ppl. You simply said I have beaten a celebrity list with my zelda. Who you beat was irrelevant and I have no reason to doubt what you said. Thats why I didnt bother to ask.

We are talking about m2 zelda, I told you the only two zelda mains I have played and that I played it alot. But that doesnt change what I said, irregardless its the truth.

I was stating how the matchup actually goes. Thats how the matchup is played from m2s perspective. I just dont think you truly understand the application of m2s moves/movement. You are saying things like his movement is predicable and clunky, when in fact, its not. His approach is pretty simple Ill give you that, but its when you approach that actually matters. You literally wait for zelda to do certain things that give you an opening, all while throwing shadowballs.

@SVEET-What you say about the game mechanics is true. The point is that m2 will pretty much be the only one throwing projectiles and however zelda chooses to react to them gives m2 his openings.

You cant shield forever and full hopping over can lead to punishes. Zelda on a platform gives m2 the advantage.

Basically its up to m2. If he plays correctly and is patient he beats zelda. All she can do is play her keep away and hope he makes a mistake, thats why I say its in m2s favor. M2 has to break through her defense to win, her offense isnt really a problem. So the matchup is won by how well the m2 can get through zeldas defense, and nothing more.

I pretty much think there is nothing more to say about the matchup. Its slightly in m2s favor.

 

[xbombr]

I think at bare minimum this should be changed to even.

edit:

That would only be true if there was never a conflict. In terms of winning conflicts, zelda is vastly superior.

This is where shadowballs, patience, and their applications come into play. You wouldn't be just crashing into her, hoping **** works. Trading with Zelda is bad. Thankfully M2 has tools that allow him to minimize the amount of trading he has to do.

 

[x After Dawn x]

^ I agree. There's discussion from both sides of the matchup, so for now, it should at least be even.

 

[Pink Reaper]

I think the biggest problem with this entire argument is that people actually believe shadow ball camping is a viable strategy against Zelda. The slowest, easiest to dodge projectile in the game against one of the best Power Shield characters in the game doesnt seem like it would be working strategy.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

^this and....

90% of the game will be played at a range where shadowballs are not a viable option.

What i've heard from koastar is that m2 can camp zelda until she becomes impatient and that will lead him to winning. M2 can do the same thing to marth, that must mean that matchup is in m2's favor too?

basically, what im trying to say is that when you can't fight directly and must resort to a war of patience, the matchup isn't even.

 

[KAOSTAR]

I think the biggest problem with this entire argument is that people actually believe shadow ball camping is a viable strategy against Zelda. The slowest, easiest to dodge projectile in the game against one of the best Power Shield characters in the game doesnt seem like it would be working strategy.

Its definitely viable. and its hard to powershield anyway.

Zelda isnt fox, she cant just jump around it. Sometimes shielding, jumping over(full hop) platforming put her at a disadvantage. M2 can do it without the Sbs but it takes much longer. M2 just needs patients, you wait for openings that she leaves. M2 doesnt really leave many himself in this matchup, if he doesnt get greedy he is pretty safe overall.

You do not camp zelda until she is impatient sveet. You camp her until you are at a distance and she does something you can punish.

You do fight her directly, but she has good defense. You attack the holes in her defense.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

You do not camp zelda until she is impatient sveet. You camp her until you are at a distance and she does something you can punish.

Those mean the same thing to me. Why would a smart player who knows the matchup and their character choose to do something punishable because of a shadow ball?

 

[KAOSTAR]

You have to do something. You cant just do nothing. All options are punishable, its just whether or not m2 is in the position to punish it.

shielding leads to grabs or tilts.> grabs tilts fair

going up by jumping or platform leads to getting naired uaired>into more

getting hit same as shielding

powershielding>good but if you try to poweshield consistently then you would cancel it into attacks, mindgames stuff, thats not 100 but neither is powershielding.

neutral be leads to getting hit because of lag.

 

[Shiri]

OKAY REAL TALK

DOGYSAMICH

BEST PEACH

TELL ME I'M LYIN

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

stupid post is stupid

 

[KAOSTAR]

Yea dolphin is hard to run.

You can also grab if she puts up her shield.

M2 should be able to get his shield up in time if you utilize the IASA frames. (dtilt) Or tilt at the proper range.I think she will most likely get hit trying to bair, fair oos but thats really just a guess.

Usually you can get two tilts off b4 they do anything oos. I honestly dont know the framage on this its just what normally happens in most matchups probably because of human error.

 

[x After Dawn x]

this is offtopic but...sveet you can run dolphin?

wanna try playing online with me some time? last time I played, I could run it at 60 fps most of the time. it just crashes after 15 minutes or so because it "exceeds 2 GB of RAM usage" or something.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Yea dolphin is hard to run.

You can also grab if she puts up her shield.

M2 should be able to get his shield up in time if you utilize the IASA frames. (dtilt) Or tilt at the proper range.I think she will most likely get hit trying to bair, fair oos but thats really just a guess.

Usually you can get two tilts off b4 they do anything oos. I honestly dont know the framage on this its just what normally happens in most matchups probably because of human error.

according to SDM's frame data, mewtwo's dtilt and ftilt have no IASI frames, only his utilt (which saves 4 frames; iasi frame 28 from a 31 frame animation)


and @ afterdawn, sure but i dont have a controller lol. can run it at 60fps, but i really am only using it for debug mode.

 

[KAOSTAR]

I dont really know what to say.

I thought it had Iasi or whatever frames. It has the same kind of properties as marths downtilt.

If you dtilt, he goes through a stop tiliting stand up kinda animation, but if you hit A at the right time he keeps tilting.

Maybe Im unclear on what an IASI frame is.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

no thats what an iasi frame is. Testing it out myself, it seems like there is one near frame 20. I'm gonna do some testing and post my findings.

 

[x After Dawn x]

I don't have a controller either lol.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Yep, its exactly frame 20. I must be using outdated frame data that doesn't include it (or SDM never finished :/)

also, ftilt is iasa frame 29

edit- my shield stun data of the dtilt was incorrect. i'm gonna do a few tests before i reply back on the exact number

 

[unknown522]

Back on Link vs Sheik, Link's ability to upB oos at jabs is screwed by Sheik's option of just doing the second part of the jab. She can pull it off long before Link can upB or grab, and the utilt is wonky as hell. It hits on 5-10 and 19-24, assuming it has at least 5 frames of shield stun Link can't do anything to it. Frame perfect he'll trade. It also has IASA starting at 26, so yeah. Utilt is dumb vs Link. Too effective at pressuring his shield.

Her jab can be punished, but her ability to just do second jab and start punching you in the face should you attempt it is pretty scary too.

you can do 2 jabs to stop pretty much any oos stuff, but yeah I understand what you're saying.

Also, I dunno why sheik would be trying to shield pressure with ground moves anyway. She wants the grab.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

nope my last post was wrong. i suck.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Lol, Also it takes time for the move to hit depending on distance.

M2 shouldnt have trouble shielding zeldas oos things, I wasnt sure on the frame data but I never had trouble doing it.

The reason I say its not even tho is because if m2 doesnt approach, zelda will have 2. If she is approaching m2 she is at a disadvantage. Even if m2 chooses to approach, which he will to avoid a 20 minute match, he can do so safely. Its not hard, its just decision making. All she can do is try to keep m2 from touching her goodies. She never takes m2s cookies on her own, its always in defense.

The nature of this matchup is in m2s favor.

Edit: Let me know on the exact number tho lol, either way ppl arent going to be frame perfect.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Actually, if zelda jumps on the first possible frame, she gets in air on the exact frame mewtwo can iasa. kinda weird how that works out.

I'm just gonna shut up about this matchup from now on, and mess around in debug mode lololol


edit- but when its decayed one hit, dtilt gives zelda 1 frame advantage OH NOES

 

[The Good Doctor]

@Kaostar
Stop being dumb....
Everyone knows it's easy to see shadow ball coming, and it's not hard to jump it, airdodge through, reflect, roll. And at the "highest level" everyother one would get power shielded.

I'm not sure, but if shadowball is as unbeatable and lag free as you making it seem, couldn't Zelda just CC at early %....

I so would LOVE to MM match you....

My Zelda can beat pretty could Falcon here, Sveet can back-up how good ORLY and Josh are,,,,

Zelda isn't just going to stand there and be camped by a projectile like shadowball...

 

[RipN]

marth ***** samus pretty badly

this is m2k

 

[KAOSTAR]

@Kaostar
Stop being dumb....
Everyone knows it's easy to see shadow ball coming, and it's not hard to jump it, airdodge through, reflect, roll. And at the "highest level" everyother one would get power shielded.

I'm not sure, but if shadowball is as unbeatable and lag free as you making it seem, couldn't Zelda just CC at early %....

I so would LOVE to MM match you....

My Zelda can beat pretty could Falcon here, Sveet can back-up how good ORLY and Josh are,,,,

Zelda isn't just going to stand there and be camped by a projectile like shadowball...

LOL, its whatever. Most of those would place you at a disadvantage.

SB is not easy to ps.

I hope we do get a chance to mm.

 

[The Good Doctor]

LOL, its whatever. Most of those would place you at a disadvantage.

SB is not easy to ps.

I hope we do get a chance to mm.

for some reason, you think you could approach me right after shadow ball, or that you can shoot them like falco's lasers....

 

[TheManaLord]

M2 gets shield stabbed and can't punish Zelda out of his shield.

Zelda has better range, punishes, and KO ability.

Close encounters zelda dsmash > m2's moves

**** > shadowball. it blows please stop bringing it up.

Stop talking about approach. Zelda doesn't approach either. Low tiers rarely approach because they lack to the tools to do so. It's a really slow matchup and is decided when the two characters finally engage. The statistics and data about

Zelda > m2

 

[xbombr]

M2 gets shield stabbed and can't punish Zelda out of his shield.

Zelda has better range, punishes, and KO ability.

Close encounters zelda dsmash > m2's moves

**** > shadowball. it blows please stop bringing it up.

Stop talking about approach. Zelda doesn't approach either. Low tiers rarely approach because they lack to the tools to do so. It's a really slow matchup and is decided when the two characters finally engage. The statistics and data about

Zelda > m2

You're not even reading. If the philosophy you have about low tier match ups ends with range and KO power, then you shouldn't bother commenting on them. You're not adding anything to this discussion. You're listing off what you think are facts and have no support for them.

M2 can make her move into possibly disadvantageous positions and mount an offense from there. M2 can approach, but he's only going to do so when he's got her in a bad position. He has no reason to stupidly rush in and get punished since he has a superior projectile. It's not about building damage with it or it safely covering your approach or something, it's about making her move. Eventually she'll move into one of the three or four positions that M2 can punish very well and she has no answer to.

1. Back to the edge
2. Above M2
3. On a platform
4. In her shield within M2's range (leads to either grab or fast tilts which can force her to positions either 1 or 2/3)

While she has a better knock out move than M2, she has trouble utilizing it when the match up is played correctly. Range will be a non-factor since M2 is forcing her into situations where the kicks won't be able to hit him. M2 will not get locked in his shield enough to get shield stabbed. He's better at moving in and out of her range. Zelda doesn't have a pressure game to lock him down either. What she's got is kicks when M2 doesn't set her up properly and approaches predictably. Those kicks have the capability to **** him hard, but the amount of them he will take will be kept to a minimum if he's playing properly.

It's not hard for Mewtwo to control the stage vs. Zelda. Shadowball and manueverability does help, you're completely wrong about that.

This is by no means a **** match up for either party, but it's not in Zelda's favor. Whether or not it's in Mewtwo's is another story.

 

[TheManaLord]

niqqers

M2 can make her move into possibly disadvantageous positions and mount an offense from there. M2 can approach, but he's only going to do so when he's got her in a bad position. He has no reason to stupidly rush in and get punished since he has a superior projectile. It's not about building damage with it or it safely covering your approach or something, it's about making her move. Eventually she'll move into one of the three or four positions that M2 can punish very well and she has no answer to.

1. Back to the edge
2. Above M2
3. On a platform
4. In her shield within M2's range (leads to either grab or fast tilts which can force her to positions either 1 or 2/3)

While she has a better knock out move than M2, she has trouble utilizing it when the match up is played correctly. Range will be a non-factor since M2 is forcing her into situations where the kicks won't be able to hit him. M2 will not get locked in his shield enough to get shield stabbed. He's better at moving in and out of her range. Zelda doesn't have a pressure game to lock him down either. What she's got is kicks when M2 doesn't set her up properly and approaches predictably. Those kicks have the capability to **** him hard, but the amount of them he will take will be kept to a minimum if he's playing properly.

It's not hard for Mewtwo to control the stage vs. Zelda. Shadowball and manueverability does help, you're completely wrong about that.

This is by no means a **** match up for either party, but it's not in Zelda's favor. Whether or not it's in Mewtwo's is another story.

No, you're still adding ridiculous amounts of value to shadowball. It's a slow **** readable projectile. Zelda has one of the easiest PS in the game and she has a reflector that gives her tons of invincibility with lingering hitboxes. There is no such thing as being out of range of kicks. Mewtwo does not have maneuverability to run away for the whole match. You don't need setup for kicks. That's the type of move it is. It gets in by shield stabs, trading, and spacing. It doesn't matter if it's something predictable, shadowball pressure and offense is predictable and it sucks, kicks are predictable but they still get in. It's like WoP. That hasn't failed to work over the years. Zelda can also retreating SHFFL out of her shield and trade with anything that Mewtwo does. Trades are devastating. This is by no means a **** matchup for either party, but it's not in Mewtwo's favor. Whether or not it's in Zelda's is another story.

 

[john!]

Guys it's IASA frames

...and why are we still talking about this matchup?

 

[TheLake]

lol where else you gonna talk about this matchup?

In a match up thread id hope ^_^


Besides its fun to read :D *eats popcorn*

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

does mewtwo have anything that can beat this?