Match-Up Chart (Outdated); please refer to the new chart.

[xbombr]

does mewtwo have anything that can beat this?

lol laggy dash attacks

NAir out of shield*, DJC aerial out of shield*, grab*, WD downtilt OoS

*depends on spacing

Pretty sure it clanks with some of his tilts too. Not sure.

You're not going to win a match up with a dash attack against someone who wants you to approach. It takes one of these things to be shielded and Mewtwo will pop her up in the air and **** her from below.

What's the frame data on her dash attack btw?

 

[rhan]

Doesn't FTilt match the range? I can't really test that right now...

 

[The Good Doctor]

It's not like its "get her above and take a stock"
I doubt that Mewtwo can combo a floaty effectively anyway...

If you tip her forward smash to his shield, wouldn't the shield stun plus the pushback prevent him from approaching?

 

[KAOSTAR]

for some reason, you think you could approach me right after shadow ball, or that you can shoot them like falco's lasers....

I can approach you well enough to win. I think you dont understand how it works. You are looking at the shadowball and saying oh, its slow and dodgeable, without truly understanding its purpose. You can definitely use it to camp slower characters. Ill ask, how much m2 exp do you have. Either playing as or playing against?

It's not like its "get her above and take a stock"
I doubt that Mewtwo can combo a floaty effectively anyway...

If you tip her forward smash to his shield, wouldn't the shield stun plus the pushback prevent him from approaching?

No you dont just take a stock but, you can. reverse uair into bairs with ledge cancels should be easy enough. Nairs are really good to hit multiple times and can be followed up pretty well.

He has the proper followups. At low percents you can combo floaties with djc moves.

 

[TheManaLord]

I can approach you well enough to win. I think you dont understand how it works. You are looking at the shadowball and saying oh, its slow and dodgeable, without truly understanding its purpose. You can definitely use it to camp slower characters. Ill ask, how much m2 exp do you have. Either playing as or playing against?

No you dont just take a stock but, you can. reverse uair into bairs with ledge cancels should be easy enough. Nairs are really good to hit multiple times and can be followed up pretty well.

He has the proper followups. At low percents you can combo floaties with djc moves.

Yeah, shadowball sucks. The "purpose" you attach to using shadowball as an approach is just as limited as the approach itself. It forces Zelda to act, but none of these actions put her at a disadvantage consistent with what's typically considered a viable approach. That's the whole point. It's nothing. Get off of that. Even if it were incredibly viable and truly worked as well as you claim it to it'd hardly change the matchup! Nair is bad v zelda. DI'ing out of it can lead straight to kicks. His combo's aren't very effective or efficient.

 

[xbombr]

The shadowballs serve a purpose, they are effective. Quit saying they aren't and not even backing it up at all because you're completely wrong. No, they're not Falco's lasers, but they serve their purpose well enough to get the job done against a character who can't projectile camp you. They keep Zelda from spacing kicks at you and they can possibly force her into the air which puts M2 at an advantage.

You are not DI'ing out of NAir and getting a perfectly spaced kick. I think you guys overestimate how often sweetspot kicks happen in a full speed match. Especially when you're getting pressured properly or combo'd. I don't doubt that they happen relatively often since that's basically the staple of Zelda's game and you'd have to be good at it to be any good with Zelda, but it's far from every time, especially if you're DI'ing out of a move that's coming up from below and your opponent knows where his danger zones vs. you are.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

That was actually zelda's fsmash (hits 16, 18, 20, 22, 24. 36 frames total. less lag than puff bair)

this is zelda's dash attack

look at how much priority that has. by comparison this is peach's dash attack (which has a ton of priority too)

 

[Shiri]

Please do not try to measure priority by way of hitbox size.

That's not quite how it works.

Just use "range" and you'll be fine.

 

[xbombr]

Instead of comparing the hitboxes to Peach, could we get some comparision to Mewtwo?

Specifically, his tilts.

 

[john!]

Please do not try to measure priority by way of hitbox size.

That's not quite how it works.

Just use "range" and you'll be fine.

How does it work then? Is there a post explaining this? Like why Luigi's nair > all? I've heard like 3 different "rules of priority" and don't know how it really works...

 

[TheManaLord]

Most things about aerial priority you've heard are likely true. Those things are simply dimensions of a multi-dimensional mechanic.

 

[john!]

^ Well you sound like you know how it works but you didn't actually tell me anything lol. So maybe not.

There are just a few competing "schools of thought", like some say it depends only on hitbox size, some say that each move has a "priority value" that outprioritizes others below it, some say it depends on the duration of the hitbox, some say air always outprioritizes ground, etc. I'm sure this has been figured out by now... right?

 

[The Good Doctor]

The shadowballs serve a purpose, they are effective. Quit saying they aren't and not even backing it up at all because you're completely wrong. No, they're not Falco's lasers, but they serve their purpose well enough to get the job done against a character who can't projectile camp you. They keep Zelda from spacing kicks at you and they can possibly force her into the air which puts M2 at an advantage.

You are not DI'ing out of NAir and getting a perfectly spaced kick. I think you guys overestimate how often sweetspot kicks happen in a full speed match. Especially when you're getting pressured properly or combo'd. I don't doubt that they happen relatively often since that's basically the staple of Zelda's game and you'd have to be good at it to be any good with Zelda, but it's far from every time, especially if you're DI'ing out of a move that's coming up from below and your opponent knows where his danger zones vs. you are.

according to you, you will just sit there until shadow ball does something viable, which it never will unless it's fully charged.....

 

[KAOSTAR]

im watching zelda. the shadow balls only help get me control.

it is not his number one, it just is an effective tool. you just make her kick and punish landing. or punish short moves or lag heavy ones.

 

[xbombr]

according to you, you will just sit there until shadow ball does something viable, which it never will unless it's fully charged.....

Where did I ever say that?

You throw it and see what she does. You don't have to freaking camp.

Even uncharged ones do something by making her move or defend it. You can punish her reactions to the shadowballs. It's a method of getting her to do something that you can punish in order to gain the upper hand. Once you gain the upperhand via any method, you can start stringing attacks together until you either kill her, knock her off for an edgeguard, or end up at neutral positions again in which case you have to rebreach her defenses.

Like KAOSTAR said, you use them to help you get control. It's not required, but it is effective. All of Zelda's answers to it either put her in a worse position than where she started or have punishable lag. If you're at the appropriate distance, then there are few times when there is a reason to not throw one.

 

[TheManaLord]

She would be at a disadvantage if Mewtwo could get in react in time. But he cannot. His range for this pressure to work puts him in a more vulnerable position than he would've been otherwise. That's the whole point.

I'd love to see some consistent use of this tactic. It really isn't matchup defining whatsoever. It's a tactic used every so often with less than reliable positive followups.

 

[xbombr]

The whole reason this started was because I mentioned that she has no answer to uncharged shadowballs that are thrown unpredictably. Those allow him to gain control of the match up.

He can't use them like Falco's lasers and safely approach behind them with much consistency. If he could then it would be a **** match up. He's baiting her with them. That's the point.

It helps beat or at least take the edge off of her defenses.

Shadowballs aren't required, but they are helpful. I feel this has been blown out of proportion because I've spent like two pages trying to make you guys understand that they do help.

 

[TheManaLord]

Already had that sentiment and posted about it:

It forces Zelda to act, but none of these actions put her at a disadvantage consistent with what's typically considered a viable approach. That's the whole point. It's nothing. Get off of that. Even if it were incredibly viable and truly worked as well as you claim it to it'd hardly change the matchup! Nair is bad v zelda. DI'ing out of it can lead straight to kicks. His combo's aren't very effective or efficient.

The matchup is still in Zelda's favor.

 

[TresChikon]

How does it work then? Is there a post explaining this? Like why Luigi's nair > all? I've heard like 3 different "rules of priority" and don't know how it really works...

Priority is just damage.

Big damage = big priority

Clanks occur when attacks are within 7% of each other.

*also applies to certain projectiles (i.e. missiles)

*also mistaken as: range; hitbox size

 

[unknown522]

that's for ground - to -ground.

 

[The Good Doctor]

The whole reason this started was because I mentioned that she has no answer to uncharged shadowballs that are thrown unpredictably. Those allow him to gain control of the match up.

He can't use them like Falco's lasers and safely approach behind them with much consistency. If he could then it would be a **** match up. He's baiting her with them. That's the point.

It helps beat or at least take the edge off of her defenses.

Shadowballs aren't required, but they are helpful. I feel this has been blown out of proportion because I've spent like two pages trying to make you guys understand that they do help.

It's really easy to see shadow ball coming, and even if Zelda is put into a disadvantage position, what the hell are you going to do?

There is
-Lag from throwing
-Lag after throwing

 

[KAOSTAR]

She would be at a disadvantage if Mewtwo could get in react in time. But he cannot. His range for this pressure to work puts him in a more vulnerable position than he would've been otherwise. That's the whole point.

I'd love to see some consistent use of this tactic. It really isn't matchup defining whatsoever. It's a tactic used every so often with less than reliable positive followups.

This is a viable strategy. It seems that are big differences in opinion are that you think that at high level this cannot be utilized and I say it can.

M2 can move after his shadowball fast enough to use it to approach. Its the same kind of situation wth docs pills.

Vs slower characters, m2 has enough mobility to run away from them on his own, such as zelda bowser dk ganon and more, but you get the point. While you are running away you can sb to force them to do something.

This most definitely creates some type of opening. I will try to find some matches or record some vs say a decent ganon. I know a zelda but I dont know how good he is at the moment so I dont know if it would mean anything at all.

Until then would you be alright with saying its even and continue the discussion later?

@the good doctor-this applies to you as well

 

[ChivalRuse]

I feel like if M2 just camps (i.e., is really patient), he has an advantage. If he doesn't camp, then Zelda has the edge.

 

[otg]

Yo Doc's pills ****ing suck. Shadowball is even WORSE then that. Food for thought.

 

[The Good Doctor]

Yo Doc's pills ****ing suck. Shadowball is even WORSE then that. Food for thought.

@kaostar ^^^

You literally need to do it while in the air.....
Using them in this way is usually not a great idea, Doc's pills are used for the 6%-8% that each can deal, as well as the fact that you don't need to approach with them....

As someone that has played Doc alot, I notice how little you know about him just from that one statement.

Bad Docs will approach with pills....everytime....which he should do rarely, Doc just sits there and spams....

Pills >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> shadow ball

Mewtwo can't do what you claim he can using shadow ball....

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Priority is just damage.

Big damage = big priority

Clanks occur when attacks are within 7% of each other.

*also applies to certain projectiles (i.e. missiles)

*also mistaken as: range; hitbox size

that's for ground - to -ground.

Exactly. When two ground hitboxes collide, as long as the damage the hitboxes do are within a certain percent of each other they clank (with the user of the weaker move having frame advantage iirc), otherwise the stronger move overrides and hits.

Please do not try to measure priority by way of hitbox size.

That's not quite how it works.

Just use "range" and you'll be fine.

When were not talking about ground to ground priority, hitbox size and disjointedness is exactly what were talking about when we say "priority".

Just remember that it's not reach that determines priority, it's the distance from the character's vulnerable body to the hitbox part.

If you want more information, read M2K's entire post on the matter (click the arrow next to his name in this quote).

 

[KAOSTAR]

We arent talking about doc so its irrelevant. I used an example, I guess it was wrong. That doesnt change anything. It only means What I said about docs pills was wrong, im certain about the sb.

M2 can use the SB in the way I have been saying. its effective to camp slower ppl. You follow your shadowballs in to approach and pretty much weave in and out dodging kicks. At close range aerial oos is good, but not good at sweet spot range. It only helps control her movements, it doesnt **** like lasers. It works fine.

Go in with a tilt, if it hits look for grab fair or nair. simple. FAirs is a decent kill move and must be utilized. 102 on FD with an upthrow. EAsy **** when played smart.


This is the only m2 zelda I could find. Iori doesnt use the shadowball as much, playstyle diff, but you can see where its effective. He took some risks as well and sometimes they went good, sometimes they didnt.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbOYGrHu8pU&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPmnCTbK5io&feature=related

 

[The Good Doctor]

First you guys say you're using it to camp, then you say you aren't, then you say you are again.....
IDK WHAT TO THINKKK....

loljk

It does seem I was over estimating the lag on uncharged shadow balls, but the "advantages" you speak of don't really seem to factor in the match-up as a whole...

Like we've been saying, it's probably Zelda > Mewtwo on small stages and medium size stages without platforms. If Mewtwo has like 55:45 advantage on larger stages I would consider it more of an equal match-up, but I don't see that being the case.

I really think in a tournament set, with equal skilled players, Zelda wins probably around 3/4 times at the very least.....

 

[KirbyKaze]

Oh, goodness...

He played the Youtube card. **** just got real.

 

[KAOSTAR]

I was changing the terminology. I just wanted to be sure we were all talking about the same thing.

The point really isnt for m2 to keep ppl away with his shadowballs but to create openings. So I didnt want to call it camping if it wasnt. When you throw them at zelda, she has to do something, based on what she chooses to do is how you approach.

Iori was a little bold in approaching her from the air like that, but he made it work. In my opinion its best for m2 to stay grounded more, thats where he can really cover ground and get inside. In the air, on an even level m2 is at a disadvantage. When zelda is above he has the advantage. I wouldnt give zelda the advantage if she is below, but I wouldnt say m2 has an advantage either. More like he has more options but its best to avoid the situation all together. I wasnt saying this is the matchup and cuz he won this is how it goes, I was just trying to show a bit of the play between the two characters in tournament.

When m2 gets inside he has options, just dont over exert yourself and you are pretty much safe. When shielding, shield high so you dont get shield poked and you can nair oos and sometimes fair when you are close.

I wouldnt change the matchup based on smaller stages. The reason is, m2 is looking for a fair kill or an upthrow. Avoid dreamland, and go to BF PS FD YS. ITs basically how comfortable you are with your space. Zeldas kills are pretty much the same everywhere and m2 is light. You just have to avoid it and its not hard if you are paying attention. You would choose the stage that makes it easier to get the kill not harder to be killed.

Off stage presence belongs to m2 as well. Although he has to watch out for her horizontal movement and kicks, once she uses that up B she is ****ed, or at least will take damage. M2 should just grab ledge and force her to up B. Punish her landing. If she has to go straight up she will probably die. She has a much much more difficult time edgeguarding m2. She also struggles in approaching.

I dont see how you can give the advantage to the player whose only goal is to keep you away from them. If he had Dl FD PS I could camp her and win with a time out. Its completely up to the m2!

I would pick m2 to win on the neutral stages, but zelda probably has an advantage on all of the uneven ones. Its hard to factor in platformage and stuff. M2 is better with a linear approach.

The platforms always give m2 the advantage. Zelda cant do anything if you nair correctly, even if she smash DIs out.

The first adv was m2 has much more agility. The second is he has a better projectile, the third is that he has frame advantage (oos) most of the time zelda attacks at a close distance. He has guaranteed kills right around 109-119% that can come directly from a proper approach. Grab>uthrow,Grab> dtilt >fair/uair. Both can be utilized with patience alone or from the space created by a shadowball.

Zelda has to hit with the bair as a single move, no setups, except a ****tily Died down throw I think it is and laggy *** dash attack, which isnt reliable if they DI up and away. If you are playing safe. You shut her down while still having options yourself.

M2>zelda on FD YS BF PS DL FoD and on the platformed stages thats slightly more of an advantage. DL is less of one because of kill percents, but same rules apply, just takes more patients.

The point is that zelda cant touch you unless you make a mistake. M2 has all the tools he needs in his ****ty low tier body to beat zelda 100% of the time on neutral stages. The outcome of course will always come down to players skill, intelligence and playstyle.

You really dont know about m2s offensive capabilites at the highest level. M2 has alot of specific knowledge that comes from experience, most player do not have that. There is very limited representation of this character and alot of it isnt indicative of the higher levels of play. You cannot find the top of m2s metagame on youtube. Its not like fox, falcon, falco, peach where everybody is knowledgeable to some degree. Its basically, ppl saying m2 sucks, he cant do a, b, c, he gets ***** by d, e, f, and thats the end of the discussion.

Please, everyone stop talking as if you have been playing m2 for years. You dont actually know what you are talking about, you are wrong, time and time again ppl are saying things like m2 cant attack zelda oos, m2 is too slow, sb has too much lag, he cant get there in time,you can roll jump over ps dodge sb really easily, zelda trades hits with m2 hella easily, m2 is too slow to punish rolls, nair doesnt do **** to zelda and she can just SDI out and bair reliably, All of those have been incorrect. Just admit you dont know the ****ing matchup.

Mewtwo>Zelda

 

[The Good Doctor]

If you shield high, you get down smashed.
Your claim that Mewtwo has the advantage on every neutral is hilarious
I would think the faster character would be better on Rainbow Cruise...

You're seriously too stubborn to listen to actual logic, hell Zelda can just run into the shadow ball and down smash if mewtwo follows it, I really think the only thing he has going for him is that he'd be hard to edge guard with her.

The kick DOESN'T NEED A SET-UP!
You will get shield stabbed one way are another, and she probably can set it up with a flub kick....
It's both Fair and Bair, btw....and they come out fast....

 

[xbombr]

If you shield high, you get down smashed.
Your claim that Mewtwo has the advantage on every neutral is hilarious
I would think the faster character would be better on Rainbow Cruise...

You're seriously too stubborn to listen to actual logic, hell Zelda can just run into the shadow ball and down smash if mewtwo follows it, I really think the only thing he has going for him is that he'd be hard to edge guard with her.

The kick DOESN'T NEED A SET-UP!
You will get shield stabbed one way are another, and she probably can set it up with a flub kick....
It's both Fair and Bair, btw....and they come out fast....

1. She can't downsmash from the air. You can adjust your shield based on whether or not she's in the air.

2. If she runs into the shadowball, then downsmashes (Assuming Mewtwo doesn't get there fast enough, which he should since he's spacing properly at high levels of play.), Mewtwo can just shield -> OoS stuff or jump and aerial. Hell, his tilts might even be able to stop that crap. It might work once, but after that it won't and Mewtwo will start to punish her for it.

3. Kick doesn't NEED a set up, but isn't landing reliably without one since Mewtwo knows it's her only option in the air and it's more favorable than anything she has on the ground. Zelda is a one trick pony, face it. Mewtwo is not DK, he does not get shield stabbed everytime Zelda kicks his shield. To shield stab M2, you have to approach him, this is what M2 wants you to do. He has no incentive shield in most cases unless he's caught off gaurd.

 

[TheManaLord]

You guys are empasizing very specific encounters and situations way too much. In the hierarchy of matchup fundamentals Zelda has better tools to utlize.

The matchup can certainly change, and on some stages I'd agree m2 might have an advantage. But based on the SBR stagelist there aren't enough m2 positive stages to skew the overall matchup to even.

 

[The Good Doctor]

1. She can't downsmash from the air. You can adjust your shield based on whether or not she's in the air.

2. If she runs into the shadowball, then downsmashes (Assuming Mewtwo doesn't get there fast enough, which he should since he's spacing properly at high levels of play.), Mewtwo can just shield -> OoS stuff or jump and aerial. Hell, his tilts might even be able to stop that crap. It might work once, but after that it won't and Mewtwo will start to punish her for it.

3. Kick doesn't NEED a set up, but isn't landing reliably without one since Mewtwo knows it's her only option in the air and it's more favorable than anything she has on the ground. Zelda is a one trick pony, face it. Mewtwo is not DK, he does not get shield stabbed everytime Zelda kicks his shield. To shield stab M2, you have to approach him, this is what M2 wants you to do. He has no incentive shield in most cases unless he's caught off gaurd.

Your just assuming Mewtwo will adapt while Zelda can't....

 

[xbombr]

Your just assuming Mewtwo will adapt while Zelda can't....

How's Zelda going to adapt? She has like 5 usable moves. 2 of them are aerials and are pretty much the exact same except for which direction she's facing and the other three are extremely punishable given the viability of Zelda's grounded approach.

 

[otg]

Edit:

Eh forget it, KAOSTAR ur a scrub.

 

[TheManaLord]

@otg: That's how I started feeling a long time ago. Good call.

The only reason I keep arguing this is because I have the feeling M2 mains have something they think they have to prove and they're going to keep saying the same crap until people buy into it.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Whatever guys.

Also, m2 is terrible on rainbow. Requires too much jumping. There isnt enough even 1v1 area where I can safely approach zelda. Zelda can definitely use the stage to defend herself alot better than m2 can approach.

Its just too hard to find a spot to post up in. So there are too many missed opportunities.

M2>zelda

 

[KirbyKaze]

I was going to say that this discussion is really bad but then I realized it beats Kirby vs Pichu so carry on.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I'm just amused that the past 200 or so posts have largely revolved around a match-up that I've never seen once.