Match-Up Chart (Outdated); please refer to the new chart.

['Fro]

I think Mewtwo vs Falco should be considered >>> for Falco favour, in fact I think Falco vs most characters should be >>> for Falco but then we get arguments like

Mewtwo isn't comboed hard by Falco
Mewtwo isn't edgeguarded very effectively by Falco
Mewtwo can teleport through lasers
Mewtwo can teleport through pseudo-combos
Mewtwo can powershield --> grab and effectively get something because his grab range is long
Mewtwo's aerial mobility is conducive for working through lasers
Mewtwo's wavedash is conducive work working through lasers

Mewtwo edgeguards Falco
Mewtwo has CG quality throw combos on FD and okay follows on other levels

And Falco, in the matchup, completely loses his ability to think because they're getting these openings from "Mindgames" and "poor spacing" so the matchups really not that bad when you think about it.

Mindgames and poor spacing are player-based qualities. Match-ups are supposed to gauge the characters' inherent advantages and disadvantages against one another (attack priority, speed, range, etc.), and how much they can truly factor into a real match. For all the things listed that Mewtwo could possibly do to Falco, what if we compiled a list of what Falco can do to Mewtwo? I'd leave that up to you, since your experience outweighs mine at this game.

 

[Devil Ray]

sheik goes even with falco. it's deeaadddd even. it's even on almost every stage, including cp's. the matchup is ridiculously even.

i'm not sure if fox has an advantage on sheik, but that's a popular concept so i won't fight it. from what i've seen, smashers who pick up fox to beat a sheik don't do very well. and fox is one of the popular/common 2ndaries to pick up

 

[KirbyKaze]

i agree with most of it. what i meant when he gets a hit, he doesn't get a combo, but he can move in for better positioning after he gets a hit. Its not a great plus, but its better than nothing.

Or Marth could just crouch cancel into grab or D-tilt and keep his spacing and/or kill Roy...

 

[KAOSTAR]

I think Mewtwo vs Falco should be considered >>> for Falco favour, in fact I think Falco vs most characters should be >>> for Falco but then we get arguments like

Mewtwo isn't comboed hard by Falco
Mewtwo isn't edgeguarded very effectively by Falco
Mewtwo can teleport through lasers
Mewtwo can teleport through pseudo-combos
Mewtwo can powershield --> grab and effectively get something because his grab range is long
Mewtwo's aerial mobility is conducive for working through lasers
Mewtwo's wavedash is conducive work working through lasers

Mewtwo edgeguards Falco
Mewtwo has CG quality throw combos on FD and okay follows on other levels

And Falco, in the matchup, completely loses his ability to think because they're getting these openings from "Mindgames" and "poor spacing" so the matchups really not that bad when you think about it.

Lol, Its obvious falco can **** m2.

Most of the theory smash for m2 doesnt actually work. Its too hard to teleport through lasers especially if falco moves back while doing it. Also the startup lag is high enough you would just get hit.

Its better to Di than to try to teleport out of combos.

m2 can kill falco off 1 grab tho and the matchup is not impossible. It can be tough but Equal skill players Id still give m2 a fighting chance. More because of m2s offense and recovery potential.

I am very confident in the falco matchup but alot that usually comes from me knowing that my opponent is a competent falco, but lacks knowledge of m2s meta.

 

[Devil Ray]

I am very confident in the falco matchup but alot that usually comes from me knowing that my opponent is a competent falco, but lacks knowledge of m2s meta.

well put. 10mewtoosies

 

[KAOSTAR]

dont get it twisted tho, m2 can still edgeguard, tech chase, and combo like a man.

Hes just too ****ing big to weave and bob in anything smaller than an open field. Once you take away his on ground mobility (WD) he is just a huge target with a moderate grab range.

 

[Vsin]

All I gotta say is this:

Fox isn't Meta Knight. He does have a counterpick -_-. I forgot who though (maybe it was Marth?)

 

[x After Dawn x]

if you're good at the marth vs fox matchup, go marth. if you're good at the falco vs fox matchup, go falco. if the fox you're playing doesn't know wtf to do against jiggs, go jiggs. you can even be like forward and cp sheik vs fox and win despite what everybody says!

 

[t3h Icy]

All I gotta say is this:

Fox isn't Meta Knight. He does have a counterpick -_-. I forgot who though (maybe it was Marth?)

This is work in progress. Marth, possibly Falco may stray over though.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Or Marth could just crouch cancel into grab or D-tilt and keep his spacing and/or kill Roy...

true dat. i just thought that advantage was basically matchups between like 60-40 and 70-30, and i'd throw marth vs roy in there. Its totally in marths favor and from a tournament match perspective its unwinable, but roy obviously does significantly better vs marth than the marth >>> matchups.


also, i believe KK was pointing out the stupid arguments low tier mains propose when he posted that falco vs m2 post... the top says he thinks it should be falco >>> m2

 

[Nintendude]

I've always thought of it as 60-40 is slight advantage, 70-30 is advantage. 55-45s should definitely be considered even imo. 55-45 to me means that it appears as if one character has a really slight edge, but variability in stages and playstyles can easily swing it to even or even the other way around. Numbers cannot capture that variability, but qualitative terms like "even" and "slight advantage" do a better job.

Based on this, I think Sheik vs. Fox/Falco is even.

 

[KirbyKaze]

All I gotta say is this:

Fox isn't Meta Knight. He does have a counterpick -_-. I forgot who though (maybe it was Marth?)

It is debatable whether or not he loses to Falco. Some say Fox wins, some say even, some declare it's Falco favour. You can find about a large amount of people in each group.

Marth vs Fox is largely considered even at this point.

After that I don't know who the hell might counter Fox. I suppose you could hop onto the "Jigglypuff vs Fox is even" bandwagon that's emerged because of Hungrybox and, well, basically Hungrybox. But that's silly because Fox clearly has the advantage and anyone who plays Puff and has to deal with Foxes that play the matchup properly will tell you it's varying degrees of bad (ranging from bearable to horrible ****).

Sheik certainly doesn't counter Fox. And neither does Peach, despite how people may john about D-smash and fast moves.

 

[JPOBS]

fox ***** puff.

Hbox is really good tho.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Darc told me that it's really easy against people who do it wrong. But it's also living hell against people who do the matchup correctly.

I am inclined to agree.

 

[Nintendude]

I think Falco vs. Fox is another one of those 55-45s that can swing either way depending on playstyle and should be labeled as even.

As for Fox vs. Jiggs, I think it should be a slight advantage. The biggest thing Fox has going for him is low % kills, but if he lets Jiggly's damage get too high he begins to have a hard time landing anything other than a surprise up-smash. Typically Fox retains his ability to combo into up-smash / uair even above 100%, but not against Jiggs except for the occasional weak aerial into up-smash.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I disagree. I think Fox's biggest thing is that he can, on many stages, literally decide to not be hit by Jigglypuff and not be hit. And when he decides to "not be hit", it doesn't create a stalemate because he's also doing chip damage with his pistol.

Bair at 120 is underrated and I don't understand why. So is u-tilting her through or trading with one of her moves after 90.

 

[JPOBS]

why do people think upsmash and upair are the only things that kill jiggs?

lasers + Bair > jiggs

 

[KirbyKaze]

The world may never know.

 

[I.B]

It's all about shinespikes.

 

[Nintendude]

So in theory Fox can just laser camp and Bair (120% kill is pretty high for Fox btw), but I never see it work against the best Jigglys. Jiggly is good enough at pressuring and poking to stop Fox from running and gunning the whole game. As for up-tilt, show me a match where a Fox killed a Jiggly with that move.

 

[brg]

I might be colorblind, but the colors in this chart are ****ing terrible. Almost all I can see is the difference between good and bad matchups....thats pretty much it

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

you're just color blind. all of them are pretty different colors, the closest being orange and red...

 

[brg]

you're just color blind. all of them are pretty different colors, the closest being orange and red...

lol ****

10 etc

 

[KAOSTAR]

I might be colorblind, but the colors in this chart are ****ing terrible. Almost all I can see is the difference between good and bad matchups....thats pretty much it

How often do you really see fox players commit to this.

Id bet that you(I mean you) could literally run away and laser puff to a high percent without much difficulty.

Ppl do it a bit, but its toooo ****ing boring. Ur not even playing melee ur playing super B brothers and really just jumping and mashing B.

 

[Devil Ray]

I've always thought of it as 60-40 is slight advantage, 70-30 is advantage. 55-45s should definitely be considered even imo. 55-45 to me means that it appears as if one character has a really slight edge, but variability in stages and playstyles can easily swing it to even or even the other way around. Numbers cannot capture that variability, but qualitative terms like "even" and "slight advantage" do a better job.

Based on this, I think Sheik vs. Fox/Falco is even.

ppl should read this again. those are very good points.

 

[x After Dawn x]

So I played the Fox vs Ness matchup today.

I laughed so ****ing hard. Ness can't do ****.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

get any grabs?

 

[t3h Icy]

So I played the Fox vs Ness matchup today.

I laughed so ****ing hard. Ness can't do ****.

It's already maxed out on >>>. =P

 

[x After Dawn x]

get any grabs?

I was the Fox player.

Matchup is a complete joke. Like, you can just do random **** and win without trying. It's actually hilarious.

 

[ETWIST51294]

I was the Fox player.

Matchup is a complete joke. Like, you can just do random **** and win without trying. It's actually hilarious.

If it's not Simna it's done.

 

[otg]

If it's not Simna it's done.

Sadly, even if it is simna. It's done.

 

[t3h Icy]

Sadly, even if it is simna. It's done.

O RLY?

10ORLYs

 

[x After Dawn x]

O RLY?

10ORLYs

Well let's see, they suicided 3-4 times, Simna lost all his lives when green team still had 5 lives, and SS clearly didn't know the matchup and they messed up an easy edgeguard when they were both alive in the 2v1 that could've ended it. >_>

Plus, the ending was Falcon vs Ness. I have no clue how that matchup is (probably close to >>>), but I do know that Fox vs Ness is definitely >>> without a doubt.

 

[otg]

O RLY?

10ORLYs

While that is hilarious, I don't know if it's a good indicator of how good Simna is, or how much TANG/SS didn't know the matchup. I didn't watch it tbh cause I've seen it before, the only part of that match that mattered was at 2:30 lol

 

[Kyu Puff]

He was in my pool at genesis. I couldn't tell whether he was rusty or not, but I beat him with marth (I don't play marth) and then ICs. He took a game off kage on corneria, though. So if it's simna on corneria, it's not done; otherwise, it's done?

 

[x After Dawn x]

Was Kage sandbagging?

 

[Skler]

Link's matchup info!

Fox, Falco, Sheik and Falcon all have large advantages over Link.
Marth has an advantage, along with Doc and Mario.
Peach, Ganon and Luigi have slight advantages (I'm kind of freestylin' these).
Lots of people go about even with him, this should include Game and Watch (jiggs and ICs are the most debatable of these, as it depends a lot on stage there).
Link has a slight advantage against Zelda and Samus (maybe even if you want).
Link has an advantage against Ness, M2 and every low tier he doesn't have a strong advantage against.
Link has a large advantage against Bowser and Pichu.

That should about clear it up for Link.

 

[LAX_]

lol @ a matchup chart...

 

[Kyu Puff]

Was Kage sandbagging?

He went marth. He wasn't sandbagging, but I think he had a fear of corneria as ganon (PC at RoM?) After the third game, simna goes, "You're cheap," and kage responds "What?! You're cheap!!!"

Edit -- Simna's strategy on corneria is basically to get a lead and then camp indefinitely under the gun. Most characters have a really hard time approaching him there. Although, since this chart is based on the new rule set I guess this strategy is gone.

Marth >>> Ness, and I disagree with whoever said ICs > Ness. He has some tricks (Nana can't DI out of pk fire), but they're not especially practical. He has a hard time separating them, because the moves that are strong enough are either slow and punishable, or point blank and punishable. A lot of different grab combos work on him due to his slow second jump, and u-smash kills him early. Aside from that, ICs don't have trouble edgeguarding him (just jump off and b-air, edgehog or smash), outrange and outmaneuver him, and combo him without grabs extremely easily (again, his second jump).

 

[x After Dawn x]

Link's matchup info!

Fox, Falco, Sheik and Falcon all have large advantages over Link.
Marth has an advantage, along with Doc and Mario.
Peach, Ganon and Luigi have slight advantages (I'm kind of freestylin' these).
Lots of people go about even with him, this should include Game and Watch (jiggs and ICs are the most debatable of these, as it depends a lot on stage there).
Link has a slight advantage against Zelda and Samus (maybe even if you want).
Link has an advantage against Ness, M2 and every low tier he doesn't have a strong advantage against.
Link has a large advantage against Bowser and Pichu.

That should about clear it up for Link.

I don't think you understand the concept of these advantages.

A large advantage is like Marth ****** Mewtwo. Barring perhaps Sheik, none of those characters you mentioned **** Link that hard. You should probably tone down each "level" of advantage that you listed.

ie, you mentioned Marth has a medium advantage over Link, but Marth actually has a bit of trouble against Link and it would probably be a slight advantage.

Another one could be Link having a large advantage against Bowser...Link doesn't **** Bowser nearly as hard as the top tiers **** the bottom tiers. Take a top Link player like Germ and pit him against a top Bowser player like DJN or Warriorknight and I highly doubt that's a large advantage.

Sorry if I come off a little rude here, but I'm just trying to get a point through.

He went marth. He wasn't sandbagging, but I think he had a fear of corneria as ganon (PC at RoM?) After the third game, simna goes, "You're cheap," and kage responds "What?! You're cheap!!!"

Edit -- Simna's strategy on corneria is basically to get a lead and then camp indefinitely under the gun. Most characters have a really hard time approaching him there. Although, since this chart is based on the new rule set I guess this strategy is gone.

IIRC that's considered stalling. Kage should've just called the stall, or he could've banned the stage beforehand.