Match-Up Chart (Outdated); please refer to the new chart.

[Shiri]

Have you ever played Fox v. Link, dude? It's horrendous.

Falco isn't as bad, but it's still bad enough to be a large disadvantage. Sheik is obviously a large disadvantage because she wins lazily. Fox still has to do stuff that makes it look like he's doing work to win, regardless of how easy it is, which is probably why you're thinking it's not as bad as it actually is.

P.S. - I know very few tournaments that consider the Corneria tactic for Ness a stall; it's not even that hard to get down there and make it back. Ness has no invulnerability down there or any real striking advantage besides going for grabs once you actually get down there. It's not that bad. As long as he's in the lead, I don't see the problem.

 

[Divinokage]

No I didn't sandbag in Corneria, I just couldn't do ****. lol. Ness down there under the wing is ********. I should of banned the stage but I'm very unfamiliar with the matchup in general so i didn't know what to ban. Also Ganon on Corneria is general bad against a character that can camp well. Though Ganon vs Ness is a joke too, outspace all day.

 

[x After Dawn x]

P.S. - I know very few tournaments that consider the Corneria tactic for Ness a stall; it's not even that hard to get down there and make it back. Ness has no invulnerability down there or any real striking advantage besides going for grabs once you actually get down there. It's not that bad. As long as he's in the lead, I don't see the problem.

Ganon can't make it down there safely. Maybe spacies can, Marth maybe too, but Ganon's up B isn't the ideal thing for getting down there...

 

[Skler]

I don't think you understand the concept of these advantages.

A large advantage is like Marth ****** Mewtwo. Barring perhaps Sheik, none of those characters you mentioned **** Link that hard. You should probably tone down each "level" of advantage that you listed.

I mean no offense, but I've been playing Link in tournament for longer than you've been entering. I've played the top players in tournament with Link and I know his matchups **** well. Link vs those 4 characters is complete trash. I could write an essay on why Link stands no chance in each matchup but it's pretty obvious if you've played people like Scar, Jman, Hax, PC, KDJ, Drephen and Mango.

ie, you mentioned Marth has a medium advantage over Link, but Marth actually has a bit of trouble against Link and it would probably be a slight advantage.

Every Marth who's spent some time playing against a Link understands his massive weaknesses and can exploit them. Link's projectiles are nothing in the matchup because Marth doesn't need to let you breathe. It is a bad matchup for Link, and not just slightly.

Another one could be Link having a large advantage against Bowser...Link doesn't **** Bowser nearly as hard as the top tiers **** the bottom tiers. Take a top Link player like Germ and pit him against a top Bowser player like DJN or Warriorknight and I highly doubt that's a large advantage.

I've played DJN's bowser in tournament and it isn't a fair matchup at all. Link vs a character that slow is just stupid because you can camp the living **** out of him. Bowser has no answer to bombs and still has trouble with rangs because he doesn't have the best ways to swat it. Link vs Bowser is just terrible if the Link approaches it with the mindset of "I'm going to camp him." If Link feels like playing it normally then it goes to a normal advantage or maybe even just slight, but if Link wants to camp Link will win every time.

 

[Rubyiris]

This is a huge joke.

 

[KAOSTAR]

I dont think recent tourney placings were symbolic of a whole new meta game.

I guess Im not fully aware of the MBR changes that were made, so Im asking what happened that resulted in a new thread and another chart probably less than a month after we just finished one?

 

[Scar]

yo whatup after dawn

falcon destroys link

whatup east coast

 

[Dorsey]

So I played the Fox vs Ness matchup today.

I laughed so ****ing hard. Ness can't do ****.

I'm laughing hard at this as well........ I own fox with ness. I regularly 0-death him and get grabs all day with ness v. fox. It's even possible for me to pick ness against a fox in tournament. I wouldn't say **** like this if I didn't wholeheartedly disagree with practically everything said about ness's match-ups in the past few pages.. And kage, ganon will not outspace ness's fair(one of the best moves in the game) 'all day'....there's just no way in hell if you're using it right.

I'll stop there for now until I record some vids of the match-ups(ganon and fox are the 2 match-ups I am most familiar with ness), which I'll my best to tonight.. And I'll elaborate on my views with the aforementioned match-ups.

 

[x After Dawn x]

yo whatup after dawn

falcon destroys link

whatup east coast

As hard as some of the worst matchups in the game? =/

sup scar

I'm laughing hard at this as well........ I own fox with ness. I regularly 0-death him and get grabs all day with ness v. fox. It's even possible for me to pick ness against a fox in tournament. I wouldn't say **** like this if I didn't wholeheartedly disagree with practically everything said about ness's match-ups in the past few pages.. And kage, ganon will not outspace ness's fair(one of the best moves in the game) 'all day'....there's just no way in hell if you're using it right.

I'll stop there for now until I record some vids of the match-ups(ganon and fox are the 2 match-ups I am most familiar with ness), which I'll my best to tonight.. And I'll elaborate on my views with the aforementioned match-ups.

Am I being trolled?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

i think you are.

 

[ChivalRuse]

I almost took that post seriously. ^_^

 

[Divinokage]

I'm laughing hard at this as well........ I own fox with ness. I regularly 0-death him and get grabs all day with ness v. fox. It's even possible for me to pick ness against a fox in tournament. I wouldn't say **** like this if I didn't wholeheartedly disagree with practically everything said about ness's match-ups in the past few pages.. And kage, ganon will not outspace ness's fair(one of the best moves in the game) 'all day'....there's just no way in hell if you're using it right.

I'll stop there for now until I record some vids of the match-ups(ganon and fox are the 2 match-ups I am most familiar with ness), which I'll my best to tonight.. And I'll elaborate on my views with the aforementioned match-ups.

Loll Are you telling me how to play now? Go place well at tournaments then go talk out of your ***.

 

[Shiri]

I actually saw nothing about him telling you how to play, really.

 

[Comrade]

And kage, ganon will not outspace ness's fair(one of the best moves in the game) 'all day'....there's just no way in hell if you're using it right.

I actually saw nothing about him telling you how to play, really.

There... kinda...

 

[unknown522]

I've played DJN's bowser in tournament and it isn't a fair matchup at all. Link vs a character that slow is just stupid because you can camp the living **** out of him. Bowser has no answer to bombs and still has trouble with rangs because he doesn't have the best ways to swat it. Link vs Bowser is just terrible if the Link approaches it with the mindset of "I'm going to camp him." If Link feels like playing it normally then it goes to a normal advantage or maybe even just slight, but if Link wants to camp Link will win every time.

Just like top tiers vs a lot of characters (especially bottom tiers). A lot of them can't do **** about simple camping and abusing how naturally bad they are.

Every Marth who's spent some time playing against a Link understands his massive weaknesses and can exploit them. Link's projectiles are nothing in the matchup because Marth doesn't need to let you breathe. It is a bad matchup for Link, and not just slightly.

omfg, I like your posts skler!!



also, ganon and fox **** ness.

 

[KirbyKaze]

How often do you really see fox players commit to this.

Id bet that you(I mean you) could literally run away and laser puff to a high percent without much difficulty.

Ppl do it a bit, but its toooo ****ing boring. Ur not even playing melee ur playing super B brothers and really just jumping and mashing B.

What's your point?

Play to win.

 

[TheManaLord]

if it worked it would be used

 

[Scar]

As hard as some of the worst matchups in the game? =/

yeah i think it's probably the easiest matchup in the game for CF

i can't think of any easier

only like 60/40 link whereas all CFs other matchups are like 90/10 in favor of the other guy

 

[SOLAR]

This sort of chart is not possible to make, because at every level of play, the counterpicks are completely different.

For example, when someone first picks up the game, characters with powerful and fast moves like marth, roy, and link are excellent picks vs most characters.

In the intermediate tournament scene, most people are not proficient at waveshining, but can tech chase, so C.Falcon might do better against a fox than at the more advanced level of play.

The best players in the world (for instance m2k) claim that jiggs vs marth = fair, and this could be true for him and certain other players, but the overwhelming majority of the public will not be able to play at this level. A jiggs who is not a master of the recently popular rest combos, and spacing techniques will usually get controlled by marth's arials, tilts, and smashes.

There are hypothetical levels of play, some of which feasibly attainable, others less attainable, where the character matchups would be completely different from what they are today; for instance a fox who can jump cancel shine extremely well might be a "counterpick" for any character that depends on a style which doesn't involve being in the air. Characters that have learned to smash DI vs fox's upthrow upair alone become able to survive for a substantial increase in time, and are suddenly considered as a better match vs fox. Whoever designs the list tends to just put their ideas of who counters who at their own skill level.

The solution to the problem would be to mention, "At the highest level of play attainable by the few smashers who consistently win tournaments", or perhaps, "The average skill level", or perhaps, "the most common skill level".

Personally, I think character matchups should be considered by an individual, based on what their opponent is capable of doing, and what you are capable of doing. If you can chain throw effectively, then fox > falco on FD. If you cannot chain throw, you are not going to have so much of an advantage vs a falco.

 

[LAX_]

@SOLAR
just like the tier list is at top level of play, this is too

Spoiler

though i still don't like the idea of a matchup chart

but you're right. at mid level of play the chart would be different.

 

[x After Dawn x]

This is a consensus, not some chart with absolute values that nobody can disagree with.

 

[Kyu Puff]

I know Linguini and Kage have lost very close matches to Chu before, and Uber Ice did well against Linguini somewhat recently.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1xxxRzqINU

I think this match demonstrates Ganon's advantages pretty clearly. His aerials are unpunishable on IC's shield, and it's hard for them to approach otherwise. Almost every hit separates them, and killing Nana takes about two maximum. And Ganon's b-air/f-air go right through their side+b so they're usually dead off-stage.

Edit -- My bad, I read it as pound 2 for some reason. Still, Chu placed 5th and I don't think the players were completely even; Jigglypuff doesn't beat Fox just because Mango does. I'd be interested to see how Kage would do against Chu now.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Wow Chu won pound 3????

for some reason i thought that was mango..........

 

[Nintendude]

Chu played very poorly in that match. There were times where he simply just sat in his shield and did nothing and he also never attempted desynchs from rolls or spot-dodges. Desynched blizzards in particular are effective against Ganondorf's wall.

 

[t3h Icy]

Agreement:
DK >> Yoshi to DK = Yoshi
Falco >> Mewtwo to Falco >>> Mewtwo
Fox >> Jigglypuff to Fox > Jigglypuff
Ganon = DK to Ganon > DK
Peach = Falco to Peach > Falco

Some Agreement:
Doc > Luigi to Doc = Luigi
Doc >> Y.Link to Doc > Y.Link
Falco >> DK to Falco >>> DK
Falco >>> Roy to Falco >> Roy
Falco >> Yoshi to Falco >>> Yoshi
Falcon > ICs to Falcon = ICs
Falcon >> Luigi to Falcon > Luigi
Fox > Peach to Fox >> Peach
Ganon > Pikachu to Ganon = Pikachu
G&W > Yoshi to G&W = Yoshi
ICs >>> Pichu to ICs >> Pichu
ICs >>> Yoshi to ICs >> Yoshi
Marth >> Ness to Marth >>> Ness
Marth >> Samus to Marth > Samus
Marth >>> Yoshi to Marth > Yoshi

Hmm, this isn't turning out quite as nicely as I had imagined. Opinions and discussion people!

 

[x After Dawn x]

lol how is Fox >> Peach? It's around the same difficulty as the Marth vs Peach matchup.

 

[Shiri]

Oh dear.

 

[Just Sexed]

Marth does not have a huge advantage over yoshi only slight lol

Yoshi can be good nobody plays him -_-

 

[Nintendude]

From that list:

Doc = Luigi
Doc > Y.Link
Falco >>> DK
Falco >> Roy
Falco >> Yoshi
Falcon = ICs
Falcon > Luigi
Fox > Peach
Ganon = Pikachu
G&W ? Yoshi (no clue)
ICs >> Pichu
ICs >> Yoshi
Marth > Samus
Marth >> Yoshi

 

[Devil Ray]

lol how is Fox >> Peach? It's around the same difficulty as the Marth vs Peach matchup.

lol, fox can do some craaaazy sheeet to peach. it's a lot easier for fox if your tech is working. marth really can't approach. fox has it a lot easier

 

[unknown522]

Agreement:
DK >> Yoshi to DK = Yoshi
Falco >> Mewtwo to Falco >>> Mewtwo
Fox >> Jigglypuff to Fox > Jigglypuff
Ganon = DK to Ganon > DK
Peach = Falco to Peach > Falco

Some Agreement:
Doc > Luigi to Doc = Luigi
Doc >> Y.Link to Doc > Y.Link
Falco >> DK to Falco >>> DK
Falco >>> Roy to Falco >> Roy
Falco >> Yoshi to Falco >>> Yoshi
Falcon > ICs to Falcon = ICs
Falcon >> Luigi to Falcon > Luigi
Fox > Peach to Fox >> Peach
Ganon > Pikachu to Ganon = Pikachu
G&W > Yoshi to G&W = Yoshi
ICs >>> Pichu to ICs >> Pichu
ICs >>> Yoshi to ICs >> Yoshi
Marth >> Ness to Marth >>> Ness
Marth >> Samus to Marth > Samus
Marth >>> Yoshi to Marth > Yoshi

Hmm, this isn't turning out quite as nicely as I had imagined. Opinions and discussion people!

I dunno how some of these low tier matchups are supposed to be "not that bad".

 

[x After Dawn x]

I'm pretty sure most people agree that the Marth vs Peach matchup is even harder. Last time I checked, actually, it was nearly 50/50 on Fox/Marth.

 

[unknown522]

marth and fox **** peach.

Groundless statement.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

pichu ***** marth

go go gog

 

[Cosmo!]

marth really can't approach.

marth cant approach peach?

 

[ETWIST51294]

Falcon equal to IC's? Aren't we the fastest nana killers? Get that sh*t outta here, Falcon's higher for a reason.

 

[t3h Icy]

I didn't say it, don't get mad at me. =)

 

[Lordydennek]

The colors make my head hurt....

 

[HawaiianJigglyPuff]

I like how you have the updates at the end on the OP. Keep doing that.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

falco vs peach is even as far as this list is concerned. If played correctly, falco has the same type of advantage on peach that marth does, he should never get hit. The higher the level of play goes, the less times you get hit. Peach just does more off a hit to falco than she can do to marth, so it looks brutal.

Falco vs sheik goes like this: at the highest level of play falco wins. Slightly below that level, its even. Below that sheik ***** falco.

also, LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOO @ marth > yoshi from marth >>> yoshi