Match-Up Chart (Outdated); please refer to the new chart.

[keeper]

I was only addressing the first line of your post.

 

[ChivalRuse]

I'm well aware of that. The fact that Ka0star plays Falcon and Marth is irrelevant. Since he is a Mewtwo user, he understands just how bad some match-ups in the game are, and he has the credibility to chide Sheiks or other high-tier users who have the temerity to complain about even or slightly unfavorable match-ups.

 

[keeper]

I main Sheik.

I started as a Ness main.

Can I complain?

 

[ChivalRuse]

Huff and puff all you want over Ness's match-ups. But to go around whining about how "Fox is soooo broken against Sheik", when Sheik ***** every character in the game minus Fox, Puff, Falco and Ice Climbers (and still goes fairly even with them in tournament), is just unacceptable.

 

[xbombr]

Sheik is definitely > Peach if both of them are proficient in the match up. If neither are proficient then Peach will probably **** Sheik for being impatient and not capitalizing on the correct opportunities (I.E. Me).

 

[Winston]

Huff and puff all you want over Ness's match-ups. But to go around whining about how "Fox is soooo broken against Sheik", when Sheik ***** every character in the game minus Fox, Puff, Falco and Ice Climbers (and still goes fairly even with them in tournament), is just unacceptable.

hahaha you sounded exactly like that when you were a fox main

"you just run back and grab fox"

 

[ChivalRuse]

Hahaha. True, Winston. But I have seen the light that is no johns.

 

[RaynEX]

I wonder if this John guy was any good at the game.

 

[KAOSTAR]

.....complaining......
In PAL, Sheik loses her strongest asset, and had to play like you average low tier, hoping to get the odd hit in while avoiding being set up for anal ****......
COMPLAINING

I know what a bad matchup is. They do exist. The point is, dont ***** about it. If its a problem for you, get better at it, or switch characters.

There isnt much more to it.

I just find it funny that sheik player will complain about a bad matchup when they are bad matchups for most of the cast.

I dont care what the matchup of sheik peach is, you jus arent in any position to complain. Im guessing you would prefer if sheik was >>> with everyone. That way she wouldnt have any bad matchups

kaostar seems like a douche

I dunno I'm just saying.

Probably only to those who think Im a douche.

He plays Falcon and Marth just as much as Mewtwo, if not more, in tournament.

I play m2 more. Than both of them. Im most comfortable with him vs bottom thru high tier. I put the most time into fox m2 falco, for tech skill practice.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I'd want Sheik to > everyone.

If she >>> or >> everyone she'd be banned.

But a > means she'd just be the best character.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Ka0star seems like a pretty cool dude.

Sheik players need to suck it up and stop crying because there are some characters that she has to outplay rather than being able to abuse her brokenness (i.e., space and combo rotely).

 

[gm jack]

Ka0star seems like a pretty cool dude.

Sheik players need to suck it up and stop crying because there are some characters that she has to outplay rather than being able to abuse her brokenness (i.e., space and combo rotely).

Put it in perspective. If the Sheik can tech chase properly, I can see Sheik going even or having a small advantage over Fox and Falco. IC are a pain, but it's nothing too bad. I just really think that Jiggs (and PAL peach) are the only bad match ups she has. When giving an opinion which doesn't agree with the majority, and I am not M2K, Mango etc, emphasis is necessary.

 

[h!tboxexplo!ter]

Ka0star seems like a pretty cool dude.

Sheik players need to suck it up and stop crying because there are some characters that she has to outplay rather than being able to abuse her brokenness (i.e., space and combo rotely).

there is only 1. its not our fault people dont properly evaluate sheiks potential

 

[KirbyKaze]

Put it in perspective. If the Sheik can tech chase properly, I can see Sheik going even or having a small advantage over Fox and Falco.

You're allowed to think that way. Though I think that tech chasing (punishment, really) is just one part of the matchup. In terms of punishment Sheik tends to do well against characters and space animals aren't really an exception.

The troublesome part is when they punish her lack of an approach game and focus on getting free combos and hits off her laggy recovery.

 

[Alphicans]

Just to throw my arbitrary opinion out there:

Sheik = fox, Sheik >/= falco, sheik = jiggs, sheik > peach. I think that on a realistic level, sheik is the best character in the game.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Sheik is not the best character

edit: The exception to this is if we weight all the matchups equally. In that case Sheik is the best. Sheik is otherwise not the best character.

 

[Alphicans]

Well according to this chart she has the 2nd best match-ups and the most **** match-ups. You make it sound like it's a huge stretch to say something like that (the laughing), but it's really not. W.e, this is not what this thread is for lol.

 

[t3h Icy]

Based on weight, Sheik is 2nd best (though that may change since her and Fox are close), but in a realistic sense, Fox is better regardless because the few harder match-ups for Sheik are characters that people actually use in tournaments. Destroying low tiers is good stuff, but the ratio of how good (or bad) they are based on weight vs how often they actually get used, is low and unproportional to what the chart would portray. If all characters were used an equal amount, Sheik would be the best character, but in the realistic sense (since low tiers rarely see daylight), Fox is the best.

Anyway, Sheik > Peach and everyone agrees (except Amsah =P) and Sheik >>> Zelda.

Before moving onto the next character, let's finish up the last few match-ups being argued.

Sheik >> DK to Sheik >>> DK. It seems people like Sheik >> DK, since DK isn't chaingrabbable (though still doesn't want to get grabbed), and DK can do Cargo->Uair combos, so the match-up isn't completely abysmal.

Sheik >> Y.Link to Sheik >>> Y.Link. I don't think anyone checked if Y.Link can be chaingrabbed. Although Sheik could still do Tilty stuff, Y.Link would at least have some ability to get out of them and can attack back. Even then, it's still a rough match-up for Y.Link.

Sheik > Marth to Sheik >> Marth. KirbyKaze brought this up and people rambled about it, but didn't quite conclude it. I think most people know how the match-up works, but is it that bad for Marth?

After Sheik, I'll update the chart and I'll do the +3 to -3 stuff on the chart. Do you want "0" or "=" for neutral match-ups?

 

[ChivalRuse]

DK can dash dance all he wants. Nary a grab will he land - nary a juggle will he initiate.

 

[Roneblaster]

i laugh when top tiers ***** about match-ups. (Sheik *****ing about anyone, Falco *****ing about peach)

 

[Let It Riot]

After Sheik, I'll update the chart and I'll do the +3 to -3 stuff on the chart. Do you want "0" or "=" for neutral match-ups?

I vote for "=" or "≈" so people can not be in a dither about extremely minute advantages /disadvantages that are rarely the deciding factor in a match.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Anyone want to dispute Sheik >>> DK? I think I need to play that match-up a bit today or something. Then I can post with experience.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

i figured it was only sheik >> dk. sheik can't cg in that MU but hardly needs to. If DK gets a grab he can combo her as well or better than most other characters.

 

[h!tboxexplo!ter]

Just to throw my arbitrary opinion out there:

Sheik = fox, Sheik >/= falco, sheik = jiggs, sheik > peach. I think that on a realistic level, sheik is the best character in the game.

^.^
but realistically i think fox has slightly better matchups overall and sheik =/= jiggs
sheiks easily second best after fox imo. at least in raw terms of " i **** up the most characters by the biggest margin". she does do the best other high tiers. and low. and medium. high tier kinda gets us, but not terribly

edit:

Sheik > Peach and everyone agrees

victory! i said that like 80 pages ago... and still no peach ever contested it

 

[ChivalRuse]

DK's slow footspeed and wavedash make it hard to grab Sheik though.

 

[RaynEX]

I'm pretty sure Sheik loses to Jiggs. I can see it maybe being even though.

Jiggs has no bad match-ups. Only even ones, or MUs that aren't enough in her favour that she has to work for to win.

Fox ***** the low tiers by a much larger margin than the aforementioned, but why does that matter? He gets comboed by everyone. Most people can 0-60 combo him with ease.

Jiggs has the potential to do well against any character and can't be death comboed. So dumb.

 

[TheManaLord]

Raynex speaks truth about jigglypuff.

 

[john!]

I feel like Fox/Falco/Puff is becoming the new "triangle"... Foxes are going to learn to camp and be gay to Puff... Puffs are going to learn to hang by the ledge and gimp Falco at 30%... Falcos are going to learn how to 0-death Foxes off one shine, or at least get off a massive combo. These are the only possibly bad matchups of these characters, and it's why IMO they belong in the top tier by themselves.

 

[t3h Icy]

They're the new Fox/Marth/Sheik.

 

[Blistering Speed]

Only because the only good Marth or Sheik now is Mew2king. Amsah too obviously, but he's never in the US tournaments. He showed what's what at Pound 4 though.

 

[Alphicans]

Icy no one said Sheik >>> y.link except hitboxexploiter, who has admitted he has like no experience in the match-up previously in this thread. KK agreed with me >___>. Do w.e you want I guess.

Oh, lol, you want further discussion. Well either way my post stands. More people need to contribute though.

 

[t3h Icy]

Alright, we'll move on now to Marth. As always, the match-ups in the brackets are from what we previously worked up to with. When I can, I'll update the numbers on the chart so that nobody gets confused, hopefully. I'll also update the two match-ups at the same time.

Pending Match-Ups:

Sheik >>> Zelda
Fox >>> G&W

Marth's Match-Ups:

Marth < Sheik
Marth = Falco
Marth = Falcon
Marth = Fox
Marth = Ganondorf
Marth = Jigglypuff
Marth > Ice Climbers
Marth > Peach
Marth > Samus
Marth >> DK
Marth >> Doc
Marth >> Link
Marth >> Luigi
Marth >> Mario (Marth > Mario)
Marth >> Roy
Marth >> Pikachu
Marth >> Y.Link
Marth >> Yoshi
Marth >> Zelda
Marth >>> Bowser
Marth >>> Kirby
Marth >>> Mewtwo
Marth >>> Mr.G&W (Marth >> Mr.G&W)
Marth >>> Ness
Marth >>> Pichu

 

[TheManaLord]

Marth < Falcon
Marth < Jigglypuff

gonna toss those out there

 

[john!]

Marth < Falcon
Marth < Jigglypuff

gonna toss those out there

Those are not nearly as hard for Marth as Sheik is... unless you think Sheik should be changed to <<?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Marth < Falcon
Marth < Jigglypuff

gonna toss those out there

i disagree with both.


I would like to bring up marth vs ganon. We have been discussing it on the marth boards recently and i think we all came to an agreement that marth > ganon.

 

[Sasha]

Has Mew2King come to this thread recently? I mean, we're discussing the three characters that he uses (and is arguably the best at using). Shouldn't he have some say in this?

Also, I agree with Marth > Ganon, but I'm only semi-decent so don't mind me.

 

[unknown522]

incoming post from kage........

Anyways, I agree with pretty much all these matchups for marth, except IMO:

Marth << Sheik
Marth >> peach
Marth >> ICs
Marth >>> Roy

He just gets gayed so hard by sheik's combos and her easy ability to hit marth.
Marth's sword ****s peach and ICs really hard. They both have an extremely difficult time getting inside marth, as long as he's not spamming f-air going forward with poor spacing. His DD game is so ridiculous vs peach.

Vs ICs, marth keeping nana split up is really good, along with his ability to spike her.

Roy just sucks and gets ***** by CC. Math's throw combos are also infinitely better on roy, than the other way around. Roy's damage output is terrible compared to marth, and he also gets punished for good spacing, whereas marth gets benefits from good spacing.

 

[Hazygoose]

doesn't like...marth's jab outrange any of jigg's aerials? i really don't understand how marth doesn't have the advantage in that matchup, much less the input that jiggly>marth...i'm not sure if i just don't understand the matchup or if i don't understand why marth's would be playing it so incorrectly. someone please enumerate jiggly's advantages in this mu, and why they outweight marth's.

also, i know this is supposed to be marth focused now but...i completely missed out on the last 2 years of a certain mu. wasn't peach a hard jiggly counter? what happened?

honestly asking these questions, i play none of these characters.

 

[Dark Sonic]

This, my friends, is why "keep Jiggs out forever" is a poor argument. Well, that and her aerial mobility.

<_< It's not that Marths are playing it incorrectly, it's that walling Jigglypuff doesn't work

 

[Magus420]

That picture's a bit misleading.