Match-Up Export #1: Meta Knight | Complete!!

[Rizk18]

50-50? lolz,u gota be kidding,its 60-40 at max,60-40 is way more accuarte then 50-50,most of the stuff u said is right but a smart mk player wont fall for these shinanigins

 

[KillerJawz]

^Care to give some more reasons for that ratio as opposed to a nonsense one liner?

 

[luke_atyeo]

tkd, what do you reckon about pictochat against mk?
I like to think of it as 'bigger, funner FD'

 

[Rizk18]

^Care to give some more reasons for that ratio as opposed to a nonsense one liner?

much better approach games,the gimps he has with his dair isnt fair,better oos options made it hard to dair w/o getting ****ing up b'd oos or nair'd more points to be listed but i dont feel like typing.so far its 55-45,nuff said

 

[Conviction]

much better approach games,the gimps he has with his dair isnt fair,better oos options made it hard to dair w/o getting ****ing up b'd oos or nair'd more points to be listed but i dont feel like typing.so far its 55-45,nuff said

....no

DI away from the stage while rising Fair and you will see that he will be gimping you less.
Why are you Dairing into shield? Dair is only used as a punishment or cross-up.
Your points you have made aren't valid.

 

[Robfox]

Dair > Shine is not good to use against an MK under any circumstances. Shine alone isnt enough. But Rikz does have a point this MU is NOT 50/50 at all
Our camp can barely touch him because he's short
MK has WAY better aireals
decent gimps on Fox
He jus tops Fox and most/all characters
I think you guys are too stuck on TKDz MU expertise to see that this MU is def uneven

 

[Lightning93]

TKD has written a very detailed match-up explanation in the Fox Group back at AiB. It should answer all your questions, but he's trying to keep it safe for the sake of us Fox mains. I understand it's hard to accept this ratio without a proper explanation, and even harder to understand why you should believe in the ratio without the possibility of seeing it's explanation, but there's not really much we can say without taking credit away from TKD himself.

 

[4Biddin]

Dair > Shine is not good to use against an MK under any circumstances. Shine alone isnt enough. But Rikz does have a point this MU is NOT 50/50 at all
Our camp can barely touch him because he's short
MK has WAY better aireals
decent gimps on Fox
He jus tops Fox and most/all characters
I think you guys are too stuck on TKDz MU expertise to see that this MU is def uneven

I agree. I think this should either be reopened for discussion or at least be revised so that its 55:45 meta.

In the particular match TKD played vs tyrant the playstyle was not overly aggressive on metas part which is why I honestly think he lost the matches. I have played against some highly aggressive metas and the match up honestly felt 60:40. Metas aerials are in a league of there own priority wise.

I just feel that the 50:50 is misleading to some and I believe people will go into the match up thinking they can go toe to toe with a metaknight which isn't true. If you really watch the match of TKD vs Tyrant you will see that the match up was not played like a 50-50 match up. Tyrank played to defensive and tried to zone when he could of rush fox down with drill rush, d-tilt, d-air shield pressure, not to mention completely thrown him off with reverse pivot grabs and lets not forget more nado's or better yet shuttle loop invicibility start up form the ground????? These thing haven't been taken into account it seems.

No knocks to anyone but I think alot of people are basing the match-up off that one set which was only played right on one side...TKD's.

In conclusion this verdict is not the greatest. Reading through the summary I didn't see anything that would merit putting the match up at 50-50????

EDIT: IMHO there is no such thing as a 50-50 match up for meta unless its meta dittos

 

[meepxzero]

fox vs mk is a 50:50 mu. the entire fight is a guessing what move mk will throw out next while u rack up little damage with lasers. fox has an answer for all of mks moves.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

M2k says it's 6/4 Fox, lol.

I can see why it'd be good for Fox. Shine shenanigans are one of the few ways in the game that one can really take advantage of MK's poor aerial mobility. Also, MK is very light and usmash is very scary.

 

[Robfox]

I played Tantalus yesterday nd dude is a good MK I lost 1st game 1 stock 98% 3rd game 1 stock 91%
The MU is N MK's favor no doubt. MK vs Fox is not Cario vs Snake THEIR MU consists on who will make wat move next but 4 Fox vs MK not so much. Either way one rationalize's the MU they dont take into account one very huge dependency.
No matter how good or how bad the MK is Fox always has to B on his A game ALWAYS. That means camping @ the right times, knowing when it is good 2 dodge @ EVERY MISCALCULATED OPENING, nd conserving and/or hiding kill moves. Even though up smash is our strongest kill move it is not our only tactic nd we have to take that into consideration because up smash is so predictable even with a drill combo.
Another thing I noticed with Fox vs MK is that when a MK feels he is @ kill % he will switch into defense mode in a snap. He will plank nd camp nd wait until we come to them because they know we can kill them. Foxes do NOT fall into this trap.

 

[Robfox]

Let them come 2 U do NOT be so eager 2 smash because it is expected. Even if that means force camping the rest of the match. Another thing I also noticed is not alot of Foxes use illusion. Use this only @ certain times do not depend on illusion 2 get U out of corners every time
Overall the MU is N MK's favor period I think M2K almost lost that match against NAKAT not only because he is a top Fox but because M2K did not know the MU @ all. With all that said MK has 2 be seen through nd takin advantage of @ each and every opportunity make 1 mistake nd U can lose a stock.
sorry 4 the double post

 

[4Biddin]

fox vs mk is a 50:50 mu. the entire fight is a guessing what move mk will throw out next while u rack up little damage with lasers. fox has an answer for all of mks moves.

So 50:50's involving guessing now? LOL

Let them come 2 U do NOT be so eager 2 smash because it is expected. Even if that means force camping the rest of the match. Another thing I also noticed is not alot of Foxes use illusion. Use this only @ certain times do not depend on illusion 2 get U out of corners every time
Overall the MU is N MK's favor period I think M2K almost lost that match against NAKAT not only because he is a top Fox but because M2K did not know the MU @ all. With all that said MK has 2 be seen through nd takin advantage of @ each and every opportunity make 1 mistake nd U can lose a stock.
sorry 4 the double post

Yea fox has to be playing at almost 100% as in nearly zero mistakes for this to work. They need to change this verdict to at least 55:45 MK. 50:50 is just very misleading and will just end up with alot of foxes getting put out by mk's

 

[meepxzero]

Errr.... fox's entire game is guessing the opponent habits. If ur not smarter than them u dont deserve to win. Hence why its 50:50.

Even tho we have to guess mks movements we are heavily rewarded A LOT for the few hard guesses and if you play careful enough mk shouldnt be hitting you much except if ur getting edge guarded.

obviously fox has to be playing perfect, but i can argue mk has to be played perfect. Its easy to rack up a 100% and usmash on mk in a matter of seconds.

 

[4Biddin]

Errr.... fox's entire game is guessing the opponent habits. If ur not smarter than them u dont deserve to win. Hence why its 50:50.

Even tho we have to guess mks movements we are heavily rewarded A LOT for the few hard guesses and if you play careful enough mk shouldnt be hitting you much except if ur getting edge guarded.

obviously fox has to be playing perfect, but i can argue mk has to be played perfect. Its easy to rack up a 100% and usmash on mk in a matter of seconds.

guessing =/= reading

 

[Robfox]

Errr.... fox's entire game is guessing the opponent habits. If ur not smarter than them u dont deserve to win. Hence why its 50:50.

Even tho we have to guess mks movements we are heavily rewarded A LOT for the few hard guesses and if you play careful enough mk shouldnt be hitting you much except if ur getting edge guarded.

obviously fox has to be playing perfect, but i can argue mk has to be played perfect. Its easy to rack up a 100% and usmash on mk in a matter of seconds.

?????
WTH predictions, assumptions that is not a way to fite MK. If that is how U urself go into an MK battle I wouldn't be surprised if U get massacred. Fox does not have an answer to every MK move nd racking up damage will not take minimum seconds.

 

[meepxzero]

maybe you should be playing a different character if u dont like playing the guessing and reading game...

TKD emphasizes heavily on waiting for the opponent to commit and you exploit the commitments opponents make because fox has the most rewarding punishes in the game because most punishes fox does leads to two hit combos and some even to kill moves. (nair-utilt, utilt-utilt, dair-utilt or grab, dair-usmash, and etc.)

If the opponent never commits then its free laser damage until they finally do.

You shouldnt get massacred by mk because you have too many different options to run away from him.

Note: fyi there is such a thing as committing urself to lasering and getting punished for it, which a lot of mediocre foxes do. Learn the mk mu first with just spacing far away from mks tilts, but not too far away to be cornered. You learn a lot more in the MU if you dont laser. TKDs vids against tyrant are decieving to beginners because hes learned to triple laser while still focusing on the spacing, which a lot of low level foxes still cant do.

 

[Robfox]

As said previously you guys are to stuck on TKD's MU expertise to realize the uneven MU.
One can not just watch TKD videos and expect to play as him giving themselves substitutable confidence. We are not TKD no matter who trys to be like him.
But I stated how I feel about the MU no need 2 repeat myself.

 

[AvaricePanda]

random mess of a post

First off, how come people think it's ridiculous that M2K suggests that Diddy has the advantage vs. MK, yet people are citing him when he says that Fox, a character he's played and practiced against considerably less than Diddy, beats him 6-4?

Anyway, I don't doubt that Fox does well against MK, but I just can't see it as an even match-up because nowhere in the match does it feel even. Yes, Fox can deal with MKs attacks and be safe with full hop, and yes he can rack up damage and kill MK at 100%, but where in the match-up does he actually have the advantage? When does he actually go even, or can even just punish MK tactics with simple things?

example (I'm just using Diddy because I main him lol): Diddy vs. MK, Diddy doesn't have the advantage in the match-up but he still has the advantage in certain situations, namely on the ground. Not only that though, he can punish various things 100%, not by prediction. He can punish D-air camping with full hoped F-airs, he can punish most of MK's attacks on shield. While Fox can maneuver around MK and fall fast to punish things he commits to, he can't punish many things without predicting them.

Where does MK feel pressured in this match-up? Where is he actually at a disadvantage at? I don't feel like there's any areas where he's actually disadvantaged. Their onstage game is close IMO but I feel like it's harder for Fox than it is for MK.

Besides that, the MK vs. Fox match-up is much less explored than the Fox vs. MK one. If/when MKs practice the match-up more and learn how to punish more Fox things, I'd only imagine the match-up to be harder for Fox than it is now, and I can't see it being even now anyway.

 

[4Biddin]

maybe you should be playing a different character if u dont like playing the guessing and reading game...

TKD emphasizes heavily on waiting for the opponent to commit and you exploit the commitments opponents make because fox has the most rewarding punishes in the game because most punishes fox does leads to two hit combos and some even to kill moves. (nair-utilt, utilt-utilt, dair-utilt or grab, dair-usmash, and etc.)

If the opponent never commits then its free laser damage until they finally do.

You shouldnt get massacred by mk because you have too many different options to run away from him.

Note: fyi there is such a thing as committing urself to lasering and getting punished for it, which a lot of mediocre foxes do. Learn the mk mu first with just spacing far away from mks tilts, but not too far away to be cornered. You learn a lot more in the MU if you dont laser. TKDs vids against tyrant are decieving to beginners because hes learned to triple laser while still focusing on the spacing, which a l ot of low level foxes still cant do.

I'm not sure if you know what you are talking about or not but I will give you the benefit of the doubt. Ok hypothetically meta approaches with a nado. You smash DI out can you punish him? Most likely not. Lets not forget meta has gdlk recovery for most of his attacks if you wnna sit and wait for the meta to "mess up" your gonna lose. Fox has to take advantage of his running speed and get off lazers when he can but every time meta isn't in your face you don't need to lazer you need to put the pressure back on him and come back right in his face. Camping =/= equal a win in this match up and nor does over aggression the meta MU is all about balancing out the two.

The summary was my main concern about the overall outlook on the MU it just doesn't explain anything and then it just tags a "50:50" at the end

As said previously you guys are to stuck on TKD's MU expertise to realize the uneven MU.
One can not just watch TKD videos and expect to play as him giving themselves substitutable confidence. We are not TKD no matter who trys to be like him.
But I stated how I feel about the MU no need 2 repeat myself.

Yep, I know for a fact I won't play this MU like it's 50:50 because I know I will end up with a loss. Reguardless my point is that it should be changed so that newer foxes or less experienced foxes are not getting owned and thinking to themselves "I played just like TKD but I still lost hurr hurr"

GO INTO THIS MATCH UP KNOWING THE ODDS ARE AGAINIST YOU IT WILL HELP YOU IN THE END

 

[NAKAT]

Every time my set with M2K is brought up I feel a little bad inside

 

[meepxzero]

lol i give up trying to explain i thought this was a hopeless match at first then i got better and realized it isnt so bad.

You dont even have to play like TKD to beat mk. If you focus on what he does besides his infamous shtl ull see what im talking about. He just hard reads the mks. Doing hard reads + small laser damage makes up for mks godly moveset.

Id figure fox mains would know fox plays like a low tier character its just his moves do absurd damage. So space urself and just wait/punish.

 

[meepxzero]

Every time my set with M2K is brought up I feel a little bad inside

Dont feel bad inside. It just shows everyone fox has potential to be a lot better.

 

[NAKAT]

Dont feel bad inside. It just shows everyone fox has potential to be a lot better.

I wanted to win so badly and I had another Fox player watching me. I felt like maybe I was a bit of an inspiration which motivated me to beat him but in the end I made errors and I got nervous just one more stock ugh.

 

[4Biddin]

lol i give up trying to explain i thought this was a hopeless match at first then i got better and realized it isnt so bad.

You dont even have to play like TKD to beat mk. If you focus on what he does besides his infamous shtl ull see what im talking about. He just hard reads the mks. Doing hard reads + small laser damage makes up for mks godly moveset.

Id figure fox mains would know fox plays like a low tier character its just his moves do absurd damage. So space urself and just wait/punish.

SIGH I'm not saying the match up is unwinnable it just isn't even. 55:45 plain and simple

 

[Robfox]

lol i give up trying to explain i thought this was a hopeless match at first then i got better and realized it isnt so bad.

You dont even have to play like TKD to beat mk. If you focus on what he does besides his infamous shtl ull see what im talking about. He just hard reads the mks. Doing hard reads + small laser damage makes up for mks godly moveset.

Id figure fox mains would know fox plays like a low tier character its just his moves do absurd damage. So space urself and just wait/punish.

LOL ok it's official you have an idea but dont know what you're fully talking about

 

[Robfox]

I wanted to win so badly and I had another Fox player watching me. I felt like maybe I was a bit of an inspiration which motivated me to beat him but in the end I made errors and I got nervous just one more stock ugh.

DAWG the fact that U took M2K 2 last stock last hit alone is incredible. The fact that U took arguablly THE BEST PLAYER IN THE WORLD down gave us Foxes confidence nd endurance to hang onto Fox. Dont beat yaself up 4 losin 2 him B hype U almost beat him

EDIT:@4biddin YES TY 4 understanding

 

[NAKAT]

DAWG the fact that U took M2K 2 last stock last hit alone is incredible. The fact that U took arguablly THE BEST PLAYER IN THE WORLD down gave us Foxes confidence nd endurance to hang onto Fox. Dont beat yaself up 4 losin 2 him B hype U almost beat him

EDIT:@4biddin YES TY 4 understanding

I guess, but I forget who that Fox player was. All I know was he was white and wore a green shirt.

 

[meepxzero]

LOL ok it's official you have an idea but dont know what you're fully talking about

u probably should give up using fox if ur losing to tant with it.

 

[Kaffei]

Every time my set with M2K is brought up I feel a little bad inside

Why lol
u *****

 

[NAKAT]

u probably should give up using fox if ur losing to tant with it.

Zayum Meep lmao.

Why lol
u *****

I already explained bro

 

[Robfox]

u probably should give up using fox if ur losing to tant with it.

LOL burn @ me but that was only my 3rd tournament ever
U on the other hand give misconceptions about ur character and have random choices on how and what to do with the opponent

 

[NAKAT]

With the way things are being worded this can eaily be turned into an argument or debate which are both unecessary. Keep it calm guys and chill, by the way Meep whats the next tournament you will be at around NJ/NY?

 

[Robfox]

LOL no beef no beef
we cool jus havin a minor disagreement

 

[GUARD]

This is seriously one of my FAVOURITE match-ups with Fox. I simply LOVE fighting MK`s.

I wont base scores on MY performance or TKD`s or OTHERS......I will generalize...........

I say this match-up is 55-45 (MK) on neutrals and around 70-30 (MK) on counterpicks. I`ve played really G** MK`s here.... and if MK plays G** on CP`s, then it`s just MUCH harder for nothing.

This match-up is FAR from being imposible.....Fox has SOOOOOOO many option... such as neutral air escape tornado, the occasional Grab Release > U-Smash, the F-air that just passes right through his glide attack......and the fact that if MK either F-Tilts completely (all 3 hits) or U-Smashes.....you have a free DASH > U-Smash.

This match-up is SOOOOO fun.......but mostly on the first and last game, the second has those G** CP`s.lol

 

[Robfox]

This match-up is FAR from being imposible.....Fox has SOOOOOOO many option... such as neutral air escape tornado, the occasional Grab Release > U-Smash, the F-air that just passes right through his glide attack......and the fact that if MK either F-Tilts completely (all 3 hits) or U-Smashes.....you have a free DASH > U-Smash.

This match-up is SOOOOO fun.......but mostly on the first and last game, the second has those G** CP`s.lol

Nair cant really escape nado I feel as though reflecting it is the best option. It gives leverage 2 get out of nado nd/or can cancel it
grab release on MK doesn't wrk anymore not even 4 Yoshi
MK's rarely glide attack thereZ no need 2 with all their other more promotable aireals
MK's NEVER up smash nd ftilt can easily be connected with a shield or dsmash

 

[GUARD]

Nair cant really escape nado I feel as though reflecting it is the best option. It gives leverage 2 get out of nado nd/or can cancel it
grab release on MK doesn't wrk anymore not even 4 Yoshi
MK's rarely glide attack thereZ no need 2 with all their other more promotable aireals
MK's NEVER up smash nd ftilt can easily be connected with a shield or dsmash

I agree with your shine to help against the nado.......I feel that nair works better for me but shine might work better for you, I say both are great. grab-release to U-smash WORKS.......but ONLY if the MK player presses the JUMP button while getting out of the grab (and that Fox does NOT pummle near the end of the grab.) MK`s propably wont mash JUMP but in tournaments......you never know (it can be great mindgames).

the MK`s I play ALLWAYS glide attack. Glide attack is MK`s move with the MOST range so why not......and it also helps MK`s recovery even more.

yes btw....the chances that MK U-smashes are SOOOOO low......however, MK DOES have LAG at the end of the 3rd hit of his F-tilt......so he has no time to even shield if Fox times his U-smash fairly well.

 

[Robfox]

lol yea we all have different options
I find rarely an MK who evers up smashes glide attack maybe but not alot I think it's too dangerous to try and go head 2 head wit a glide attack anyway.
timing up smashes arent that difficult so yea that ftilt thing may work

 

[NAKAT]

I'll be back to make an input later. Too lazy right now. Guard were you the kid watching me at Apex?

 

[AvaricePanda]

Glide attack has the most range, but since it also has the most momentum with it it puts him in range of being punished when he hits a shield. It's not as safe as you might think unless he comes from a nearly vertical angle. The MKs I play don't glide attack often, but that tidbit is useful to know.

MK shouldn't be hitting 3rd hit f-tilt on your shield though, otherwise he's just bad. When I get hit by first hit f-tilt by MK I usually just full jump and try to punish coming down if he throws something random out. However, f-tilt by itself is very safe because he can cancel it to a glide, d-tilt, walk away, another first hit f-tilt, really anything if the first hit hits your shield.