Virgman
Smash Apprentice
LOL!!!! I like Foxy. I'll call you that.
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Match-Up Export #2: Snake | Creating Summary
- Thread starter Conviction
- Start date
Curaga
Smash Ace
See. This is my problem exactly. He gets that grab before I do! Grr!
Do we roll onto stage discussion? Or is there more to chat about with Snake?
TKD
Smash Lord
10000000chars
NeverKnowsBest
Monochrome Like A Panda
Videos
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7e8ZjmtFA0&fmt=18
Verdict
55:45
Note: This is a Temporary Match-Up Ratio. The complete one will be decided on once the in-depth discussion is complete.
Lol why is the reference video against Meta Knight?
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
Because I have copied the form from the Meta Knight discussion and forgot to take out the link. Thanks for the heads up.
Force Frontal by Chicken
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- May 3, 2007
- Messages
- 148
I played him a bit when he was staying at panda's. Most matches were fairly close and I never got 2 stocked. Most games I got at least one 80-100% combo against him and fox edge guards snake well. IMO 55-45 fox's favor...
Also, I beat his MK both times I played him and he's got a **** good MK.
Curaga
Smash Ace
So yesterday I had HRnut come over and chill with me. We played quite a few matches, and it was actually pretty even and close most of the time. Anytime it wasn't close was just me being a total scrub and fooling around too much. (and him being a champion) Haha.
A patient Fox player who jumps on opportunity when it comes knocking will shine (no pun intended) in this match.
50:50 dead even in my opinion.
I'll edit this a bit later and add more insight. Its a fun character to face. :D
A patient Fox player who jumps on opportunity when it comes knocking will shine (no pun intended) in this match.
50:50 dead even in my opinion.
I'll edit this a bit later and add more insight. Its a fun character to face. :D
RPK
Smash Lord
Im actually starting to think it's in our favor now o-o If not, a very solid 50-50 just because we can actually get some ridiculous combos off on Snake when he is at 0. Over this past weekend, I was constantly getting some 0-60/80 combos off on a good number of Snakes that were there. Including ones that were ranked pretty high in my region. Such as D-throw, to D-throw (I read them like a book) to forward air, to forward air, to up air. Or Dair, to up tiltx2 to D-throw to fair to up air.
Just make sure that you keep firing lasers at him, and force him to approach you. IMO, mixing up full hops, and short hops in this match up really help. Full hops mainly to avoid those grenades that are going to be lobbed at you. It might not be like much if one hits you and doesnt explode, but every single percent on us counts. Were light as hell, so be sure to avoid everything. If you can blow it up in his face do so, but if your not that accurate then just jump over it. Then when close to the ground hit him with a laser for like 2% lol.
Just make sure that you keep firing lasers at him, and force him to approach you. IMO, mixing up full hops, and short hops in this match up really help. Full hops mainly to avoid those grenades that are going to be lobbed at you. It might not be like much if one hits you and doesnt explode, but every single percent on us counts. Were light as hell, so be sure to avoid everything. If you can blow it up in his face do so, but if your not that accurate then just jump over it. Then when close to the ground hit him with a laser for like 2% lol.
Toronto Joe
Smash Master
ally ***** me so bad LOL i can watch this replay for days and days
Curaga
Smash Ace
Do you have it uploaded? At Herb 2 people were commenting on HRnut's Snake, saying it was incredibly similar to Ally. A video would help immensely. :Dally ***** me so bad LOL i can watch this replay for days and days
Toronto Joe
Smash Master
imma try and find sasuke now, give em to him
edit: i guess your just a god or something bowyer xD i dont practice that much with fox so im sure i cudda done much better,basically used what i remembered from the BR topic lol! i have no idea why i want these uploaded so badly,you'd think id want to hide stuff of me getting graped xD
edit: i guess your just a god or something bowyer xD i dont practice that much with fox so im sure i cudda done much better,basically used what i remembered from the BR topic lol! i have no idea why i want these uploaded so badly,you'd think id want to hide stuff of me getting graped xD
Force Frontal by Chicken
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- May 3, 2007
- Messages
- 148
lol, naw dude, he makes mistakes too and I think the matchup is decent for fox because he follows up and combos snake so well. You just can't psych yourself out before playing against a top smasher because you won't play well.
Curaga
Smash Ace
This is incredibly true, and also goes for any top tier character, regardless of who you're playing. If you start thinking "Oh crap, he chose MK.. or Oh crap, its Snake..": you're not going to do as well than if you are just trying to enjoy yourself.
Fenrir VII
Smash Master
- Joined
- Sep 9, 2005
- Messages
- 3,506
Fox's combos on snake, decent edgeguarding, good anti-camping, and killing ability to almost even out the killing game REALLY shift this match for Fox.
I personally believe it's straight 5-5. It's still a hard matchup, but Fox can play it. no real problems. Snakes are fun, too...
I personally believe it's straight 5-5. It's still a hard matchup, but Fox can play it. no real problems. Snakes are fun, too...
Toronto Joe
Smash Master
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
Thanks TO Joe.
I think we've come to several conclusions... Does anyone have something else to add?
I think we've come to several conclusions... Does anyone have something else to add?
Fenrir VII
Smash Master
- Joined
- Sep 9, 2005
- Messages
- 3,506
Lol even Ally spams dodges...
Seriously, every snake spot dodges and air-dodges more than like any other character out there, it's pretty funny...
Good matches, though, Joe... I felt like you were a bit nervous, or trying to make the match more complicated, but that is completely understandable...
These videos, I think, show that the match is mostly even... Ally punished mistakes a bit harder than did Joe, so he won pretty heartily, but yeah. Very good stuff, Joe.
So is it weird that I do like a LOT better on BF than I do on FD in this match? hrmm...
Curaga
Smash Ace
Actually not at all.
Because isn't a big part of our game versus Snake to be more mobile, and use aerial combat to our advantage? We move a lot faster on ground and through air so we can maximize our usage of platforms while Snake tries to keep up/set up traps/grenade play, whatever. Also, being able to side-b onto a platform while recovering is a bit safer that it would be on FD. (Although U-tilt might back that a bad option lol)
I think the current idea of FD being so good is because of our laser game, as well as the lack of tricks Snake can employ. At the same time.. all Snake has to do is crawl around under laser fire and wait for us to come to him on such a big stage.. (Such a headache.) XD
Speaking of BF.. I did something a little nuts earlier and I wanted to question it: I got hit with Snake's uptilt around 40% and I was sent through the platforms on BF upward. Before I lost my upwards momentum, I teched the platform and bounced to my feet as if I was hit downward at it.. super weird?
Palpi
Smash Hero
You can't tech nothing. You can only tech something that you would hit into....right...? Did you save it?
1337 posts, leaving it here for viridian city xD
1337 posts, leaving it here for viridian city xD
Toronto Joe
Smash Master
lulz thanks
and yeah if i dont have atleast one platform to work with i usually do poorly on the level, probably because i dont laser as much as i should, but i feel platforms open up a more diverse game for fox
edit: also recovery options on BF are so sexy
and yeah if i dont have atleast one platform to work with i usually do poorly on the level, probably because i dont laser as much as i should, but i feel platforms open up a more diverse game for fox
edit: also recovery options on BF are so sexy
Fenrir VII
Smash Master
- Joined
- Sep 9, 2005
- Messages
- 3,506
Yeah, this is what I've been thinking about the BF conundrum... just overall better mobility... and recovery... mixed with some platform traps (Fox is great with the traps), and more options to avoid 'nades and C4 etc...
I just find it odd because BF is usually a meh stage for me, but I'm really getting a good track trecord there against Snake... makes things fun.
I just find it odd because BF is usually a meh stage for me, but I'm really getting a good track trecord there against Snake... makes things fun.
TKD
Smash Lord
accidental double post.
TKD
Smash Lord
I don't like this match-up.
I'd recommend landing fast-fall nairs after full hops at Snake's backside, so he can't retaliate from block. After nair you have utilt, grab, dash attack, maybe dair, depending on wether it was blocked or not. You can air-dodge too if expecting an utilt. Bair is viable in this match-up and almost always puts you in a good position.
You're not forced to approach when having a lead, so it's possible to camp blasters and try to aim for the time to run out. I don't think it should happen in any Fox match-up, but aiming for that could give one the patience needed to wait for the right openings.
Difficulty of juggling sort of varies in the match-up, I think. Snake lands with a nade and can block or spot-dodge, where dair while grabbing the nade beats the spot-dodge and a grab beats just blocking...I'm not sure about this. I like to perform rising fair when I predict an air-jump from Snake while he's vulnerable to being juggled. I just play this match-up randomly, rely on mix-up and wait for openings when in the lead.
4/6 to 5/5. Probably 5/5 in my opinion, the match-up feels less uncomfortable lately and I can't base ratios on my own experience or bias.
I'd recommend landing fast-fall nairs after full hops at Snake's backside, so he can't retaliate from block. After nair you have utilt, grab, dash attack, maybe dair, depending on wether it was blocked or not. You can air-dodge too if expecting an utilt. Bair is viable in this match-up and almost always puts you in a good position.
You're not forced to approach when having a lead, so it's possible to camp blasters and try to aim for the time to run out. I don't think it should happen in any Fox match-up, but aiming for that could give one the patience needed to wait for the right openings.
Difficulty of juggling sort of varies in the match-up, I think. Snake lands with a nade and can block or spot-dodge, where dair while grabbing the nade beats the spot-dodge and a grab beats just blocking...I'm not sure about this. I like to perform rising fair when I predict an air-jump from Snake while he's vulnerable to being juggled. I just play this match-up randomly, rely on mix-up and wait for openings when in the lead.
4/6 to 5/5. Probably 5/5 in my opinion, the match-up feels less uncomfortable lately and I can't base ratios on my own experience or bias.
Toronto Joe
Smash Master
dug this up from the BR...for some reason we never finished this...im gonna find more stuff to post
goal: To get snake in the air and later offstage, eliminate the threat of his grenades and his ability to control the stage
How to control his grenades: Use PWGs for a safe and good punishing approach,ideal against Snakes that like to wait in their sheild or are predictable with spotdodges(note: if you miss the grab you can still pick up the grenade while sliding). To shut down Snakes grenades use your shine to reflect them back,laser to take them out before they reach you, or simply pick up a nade and put snake in a disadvantageous position.
Grenade tricks:grab a nade (assuming it's non-cooked), shoot a couple lasers, then run in and roll behind... The nade explodes during your roll probably onto Snake's shield, giving you a free grab
if you grab him and theres a nade close by, if you grab him and theres a nade close by,grab release him and usmash him once the nade bounces him up, it does a good 30% or so
At low % use the basic dair and utilt combos, if he DIs infront of you regrab,behind dsmash, if he tries to jump out/airdodge dair him and repeat the string....another effective approach is bair into utilt, since it combos and is safe on sheild this can be very useful to start off........at low %s use dthrow(if he airdoges/DIs away regrab, if he DIs toward fair....if the stage has platforms if he doesnt tech the ground after the throw you can follow up with a fair(works best on Yoshis Island)
Mid % basically anything that will put him in the air, combos like fair>fair(can be di'd out of) or nair usmash are all little things to look out for if you think you can land them. Just wait for an opening and exploit it, during this part in the match you want to get Snake out of his comfort zone. Get him in the air and keep him there. Uthrow works especially well here, keeps him in the air and since Snake is a fatty hes up there for enough time to read what he's doing and punish. They usually take out a grenade after an uthrow so just wait for him to touch the ground and take advantage of his landing lag, if he doesnt take out a nade go for the fair. If Snake is trapped on a platform in his sheild,push him off with bairs, he'll be forced to fall off and its a free dsmash. Even use random usmashes for a good chunk of % that gets him in the air,just remember to refresh your usmash with lasers. A little trick I use sometimes - if you can scare him into shielding, Crossup Fair -> Utilt once against shield, react to whatever he ends up doing. Be wary however, once Snake catches on, you'll get punished for it with a nasty utilt,use this to catch Snake offguard. Dash sheilds are amazing vs Snake,keeps you safe and gives you enough time to react and punish snakes attacks, learn Snakes range and stay just outside of it so that he cant hit you but you can come in attack.
Read this to get a better understanding of what im saying.
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost....&postcount=456
High % here snake is going to be playing super defensive, he'll try and keep you in your place with nades and c4s, dont get sloppy here,if he's throwing nades at you dont force an approach,he'll be waiting in his sheild and ready to punish you, dont get predictable with usmash, we have a great k.o move in bair so take whatever you can get....SHAD is great at throwing Snake off,use it to trick him into falling into one of our kill moves
In the air:
Once Snake is in the air you have a ton of ways to punish him, if he does nothing obviously go for to uair,after you uair him if he airdogdes as he's coming down you can follow him with a dair(with proper the right timing you can finish the dair as soon as you hit the ground to utilt), if Snake pulls out a grenade if your in a strong % lead you can hit him and both will take the damage, its usually best to wait for him to land and then punish him,bait an airdoge and either usmash or grab him, if the Snake tries to nair on his way down sheild it then attack oos, a high risk high reward option however is to try and slide under him and usmash his nair(give it a try i promise it works ;]), be careful for Snakes that bair as soon as they get sent in the air,if you get to aggressive you'll eat a boot to the face,just wait for snake to do something then come in and punish the massive cooldown on his attacks
To put it simply once you get him in the air just watch for what he does and punish it
Offstage: bthrow is the best throw to use when getting snake offstage, at low %s bthrow him if he jumps/attacks back on the stage its a free grab, when snake is below you offstage take him out of the cypher with nair,follow his di and use your 2nd jump to land a bair or get back onto the stage, if the Snake uses c4 to recover you have 5 options 1.drop down nair 2.wait for him to rise and attack him when he pulls out the cypher 3.shine stall above him and hit him on the way up(risky) 4.footstool him after the c4 explosion 5.drop down and take the c4 sticky and watch snake fall to his death(risky) , if he's further away from the edge its best to use option 2. or 4.
if Snake and tries to jump back onto the stage you can dair/dsmash him or push him off with jab(he has to be at the very edge in order for this to work), when Snake is on the edge he can either roll,get up attack, or jump...dair punishes all of these extremely well except for the roll(if possible follow up the dair with a dsmash to send snake offstage then do what we talked about), to punish Snakes roll use dsmash or a running usmash
What to look out for:
1.grab release combos
2.ftilt oos
3.uthrow > utilt at low %
4.explosive traps
5.dthrow tech chases
6.utilt
7.dacus
8. nair in the air(how to di it)
How to Punish:
Against Snake dash, utilt, jab, shield, usmash, dsmash, dair, and quite a few other things just beat it... FH Dair outprioritizes the little missle, and still attacks snake, without you getting hit... it's perfect. Snake Dash, I think, is a crutch for Snake players... they shouldn't be using it so much.
you guys can discuss how to punish/what to look out for,since we've only covered a small amount of snakes attacks ill leave that open for now
edit: wow cactuars post on spacing got deleted...wow so dumb...
goal: To get snake in the air and later offstage, eliminate the threat of his grenades and his ability to control the stage
How to control his grenades: Use PWGs for a safe and good punishing approach,ideal against Snakes that like to wait in their sheild or are predictable with spotdodges(note: if you miss the grab you can still pick up the grenade while sliding). To shut down Snakes grenades use your shine to reflect them back,laser to take them out before they reach you, or simply pick up a nade and put snake in a disadvantageous position.
Grenade tricks:grab a nade (assuming it's non-cooked), shoot a couple lasers, then run in and roll behind... The nade explodes during your roll probably onto Snake's shield, giving you a free grab
if you grab him and theres a nade close by, if you grab him and theres a nade close by,grab release him and usmash him once the nade bounces him up, it does a good 30% or so
At low % use the basic dair and utilt combos, if he DIs infront of you regrab,behind dsmash, if he tries to jump out/airdodge dair him and repeat the string....another effective approach is bair into utilt, since it combos and is safe on sheild this can be very useful to start off........at low %s use dthrow(if he airdoges/DIs away regrab, if he DIs toward fair....if the stage has platforms if he doesnt tech the ground after the throw you can follow up with a fair(works best on Yoshis Island)
Mid % basically anything that will put him in the air, combos like fair>fair(can be di'd out of) or nair usmash are all little things to look out for if you think you can land them. Just wait for an opening and exploit it, during this part in the match you want to get Snake out of his comfort zone. Get him in the air and keep him there. Uthrow works especially well here, keeps him in the air and since Snake is a fatty hes up there for enough time to read what he's doing and punish. They usually take out a grenade after an uthrow so just wait for him to touch the ground and take advantage of his landing lag, if he doesnt take out a nade go for the fair. If Snake is trapped on a platform in his sheild,push him off with bairs, he'll be forced to fall off and its a free dsmash. Even use random usmashes for a good chunk of % that gets him in the air,just remember to refresh your usmash with lasers. A little trick I use sometimes - if you can scare him into shielding, Crossup Fair -> Utilt once against shield, react to whatever he ends up doing. Be wary however, once Snake catches on, you'll get punished for it with a nasty utilt,use this to catch Snake offguard. Dash sheilds are amazing vs Snake,keeps you safe and gives you enough time to react and punish snakes attacks, learn Snakes range and stay just outside of it so that he cant hit you but you can come in attack.
Read this to get a better understanding of what im saying.
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost....&postcount=456
High % here snake is going to be playing super defensive, he'll try and keep you in your place with nades and c4s, dont get sloppy here,if he's throwing nades at you dont force an approach,he'll be waiting in his sheild and ready to punish you, dont get predictable with usmash, we have a great k.o move in bair so take whatever you can get....SHAD is great at throwing Snake off,use it to trick him into falling into one of our kill moves
In the air:
Once Snake is in the air you have a ton of ways to punish him, if he does nothing obviously go for to uair,after you uair him if he airdogdes as he's coming down you can follow him with a dair(with proper the right timing you can finish the dair as soon as you hit the ground to utilt), if Snake pulls out a grenade if your in a strong % lead you can hit him and both will take the damage, its usually best to wait for him to land and then punish him,bait an airdoge and either usmash or grab him, if the Snake tries to nair on his way down sheild it then attack oos, a high risk high reward option however is to try and slide under him and usmash his nair(give it a try i promise it works ;]), be careful for Snakes that bair as soon as they get sent in the air,if you get to aggressive you'll eat a boot to the face,just wait for snake to do something then come in and punish the massive cooldown on his attacks
To put it simply once you get him in the air just watch for what he does and punish it
Offstage: bthrow is the best throw to use when getting snake offstage, at low %s bthrow him if he jumps/attacks back on the stage its a free grab, when snake is below you offstage take him out of the cypher with nair,follow his di and use your 2nd jump to land a bair or get back onto the stage, if the Snake uses c4 to recover you have 5 options 1.drop down nair 2.wait for him to rise and attack him when he pulls out the cypher 3.shine stall above him and hit him on the way up(risky) 4.footstool him after the c4 explosion 5.drop down and take the c4 sticky and watch snake fall to his death(risky) , if he's further away from the edge its best to use option 2. or 4.
if Snake and tries to jump back onto the stage you can dair/dsmash him or push him off with jab(he has to be at the very edge in order for this to work), when Snake is on the edge he can either roll,get up attack, or jump...dair punishes all of these extremely well except for the roll(if possible follow up the dair with a dsmash to send snake offstage then do what we talked about), to punish Snakes roll use dsmash or a running usmash
What to look out for:
1.grab release combos
2.ftilt oos
3.uthrow > utilt at low %
4.explosive traps
5.dthrow tech chases
6.utilt
7.dacus
8. nair in the air(how to di it)
How to Punish:
Against Snake dash, utilt, jab, shield, usmash, dsmash, dair, and quite a few other things just beat it... FH Dair outprioritizes the little missle, and still attacks snake, without you getting hit... it's perfect. Snake Dash, I think, is a crutch for Snake players... they shouldn't be using it so much.
you guys can discuss how to punish/what to look out for,since we've only covered a small amount of snakes attacks ill leave that open for now
edit: wow cactuars post on spacing got deleted...wow so dumb...
Toronto Joe
Smash Master
#
Force Frontal by Chicken
More stuff that I remembered on snake:
If you hit him with an usmash, up throw, or something else from the ground and it sends them about double jump height, then you should single jump after and if they did an airdodge after getting hit, immediately jump up and hit them with a uair if they're above you, or a fair if they're a little in front of you.
The jump really high, time a uair to make them airdodge, and dair after, only works if they are really high in the air. If they aren't really high, jump at them if they airdodge, but otherwise just punish them on landing with a grab.
With edge guarding, if they up b, land a bair whenever you can.
If they roll through you, sh a dair into the ending spot and combo from there if they're at mid percent. Otherwise upsmash to get them high in the air if they're at high mid/high percent.
* Report
#
Force Frontal by Chicken
07-19-2009 03:36 PM
Force Frontal by Chicken
Huge super long, lotta text advice on the snake matchup!!!
If we try to approach, the snake can usually see it coming and wreck our attempt.
Don't touch his shield, you're going to get hit.
Try to get him to approach you by using sh lasers. I prefer single lasers if they are on the ground. They're better than double lasers because you wait longer to shoot the first laser, so if you see them coming at you, you can choose to not laser and do something instead. You're also doing lasers for a little less total time so it's more difficult to punish.
If they do an ftilt, you can fake like you're going to go to punish it, try to bait the second ftilt hit, then go in afterward. You can do this by dash dancing: Go at them, go the opposite way, then if they did the second attack, go back towards and punish with a grab, dash attack, or grab depending on percent.
If they do an uptilt, run in right afterward and punish it.
If they do the third jab, go in right afterward.
You have to switch it up with these things, so go in and shield in front of them sometimes to draw things out or just run at them and dash attack or grab sometimes if they think you're going to run up and stay in front of them.
If they spot dodge next to you, always punish it. You can grab right afterward or sh a dair and it'll catch them.
If they airdodge at a low height into the ground, you can sh a dair, and it'll catch him on landing.
If snake pulls out a grenade and backs up towards you, remember that he really can't do anything so if go towards him, stand behind him, if he rolls away, run and hit him, if he does nothing, you can just grab him, or switch it up by just running and grabbing... Don't attack him when he's holding a grenade.
If he pulls out a grenade and walks towards you facing you, watch out for a grab. It will stop most of what you have. Just be patient and shoot lasers, wait for him to do something.
If he does the grenade throw, it has a lot of lag so if you're anywhere somewhat near him, you can get to him in time.
He's in the air, jump up and try to bait the air dodge. Up high, time uairs right cause you can uair, they airdodge, and you dair them afterward.
Don't just attack with something other than that without them airdodging cause they'll see it, air dodge through you, and get to the ground and we need to keep him in the air for as long as possible if you hope to beat a good snake.
If he airdodges, you can dair him to the ground, then hit him back up.
If he doesn't airdodge, just get to the ground first, go to where he's gonna land, put up your shield for the powershield in case he attacks, then grab him and get him back in the air.
If he attacks, get to the ground, at punish it afterward.
If he is going right above a platform, he doesn't have a jump, and he can't get around it, so he must land on the platform, then jump up and time a move to hit him on landing. If he's at decent percent, I would bair to get him off the stage. If he's at around 0, fair him. If he's at mid percent, dair to grab or utilt.
If you can throw him off stage, do it. His options from there will be jump back on stage, jump at the ledge, jump and upb.
If he jumps on the stage, run, shield, grab, throw back off.
If he jumps at the ledge, grab it before he can so that he has to up b. If he up b's next to the stage like an idiot, charge a dsmash so it hits him when he get's to you. If he up b's a little away, I like to jump to him, shine when he starts the sypher, then it puts you in great position to fair him from there, every hit hits, and he takes 28%, then go back to the edge and edge guard from there.
If he jumps and up b's, if you can land a bair, do it cause it *****. If you can't get to him a bair, jump and fair, then get to the ground and do work from there.
***I just thought of this and haven't tried it, but if he sh's towards the ledge, you may be able to sh a dair off the stage and link it to a shine and wreck him with it.
If you're above him and he's on the ground trying to hit you on landing. Shine and be patient.
*If he jumps and tries to hit, airdodge through it, you'll get to the ground first, and can hit him after.
*If he jumps, but doesn't attack, don't airdodge through because that's what he wants. Just shine, wait for him to have to land, then go to the side, fast fall, get away.
*If he waits at the ground directly under you, side b to a platform on the other side of the stage (make sure to long cancel so you get to the ground faster and further away, he shouldn't be able to punish it if you do it right.
*If he expects you to do that and waits between you and the other side of the stage, ff and hold the opposite way to get to the ground.
***Be patient getting to the ground, but as soon as they do something, immediately take the opportunity to get back to the ground.
Don't utilt to much in a row cause they'll bair you. If you dash attack around low percent, they can bair you, so watch out. But if you know that they know about that, you can bait it, then powershield it.
Remember that not everyone knows everything that snake can do to fox. So if you think that they don't know how to punish something, you can do that more. But if they figure it out, stop doing that. And if the punishment will be death or something cause you're at high percent and you're not sure if they know how to punish it, don't do cause they could get lucky or be hiding the fact that they know how to punish it cause they want you to do it when you are at high percent.
Don't just run in and be aggressive, but you should punish every single thing that you can. If they spot dodge in front of you, you better grab or dair every single time. If they airdodge above you, you better usmash every single time. If they wiff a utilt or something, punish it every single time.
I like to use usmash a ton, then laser a bunch when they're at kill percent to unstale it, then finish them with it.
You should kill them as soon as possible but don't force the kill. It's much easier to keep them in the air with grabs, so don't be afraid to use it over and over again if they're at high percent if that is all you can hit them with. Sooner or later, they'll do something that can be punished with a kill move, or you'll get them to a high enough percent where you can kill them without usmash. And remember dair combos into a kill move very nicely.
Watch their habits so you know what to watch out for... but remember that they know you are watching their habits so watch out for a quick switch up when you're at high percents and such.
I probably forgot a lot of stuff so if there is a situation that you run into that is bad, say it and we'll figure out a way to get around it.
***In this matchup, you need to keep them in the air for as long as freaking possible if you want to win. Practice keeping them up there. Set a goal for how much percent you give them after getting them in the air and not letting them down. You should try to get that up to 60 or 70%
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#
Force Frontal by Chicken
07-19-2009 02:40 PM
Force Frontal by Chicken
Fair enough... and I guess people aren't exactly going to be studying how to beat fox...
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#
Zhamy
07-19-2009 04:13 AM
Zhamy
To be honest, I think the Brawl community is too focused on "keeping stuff secret." I'm much more interested in metagame development, and to be honest, Fox players need to know every tool possible, and it's not like we're keeping Fox v MK secrets for when one of us goes up against M2K or something.
The other thing basically goes with the saying: "No normals, no game; know normals, know game." I think the Street Fighter community has some things right. When someone asks how to get better, you tell them to pick a normal and stick with it until you know EVERYTHING you can use it for. Same type of thing - Fox players should know everything about each individual move.
* Report
#
Force Frontal by Chicken
07-16-2009 04:14 PM
Force Frontal by Chicken
I think we should start off by breaking this matchup up a little bit. Here are a few of the things I think we should look at when looking at this matchup and I think we should start by focusing on them:
Q 1. If we are both on even ground what is our goal.
-By "Even Ground" I mean: Both players have a strong footing on the ground. Nobody is trying to follow anything up. Both players are trying to land their first hits.
-By "Goal" I mean: Where are we trying to get Snake to go. What is our most favorable position for him to be in. etc.
-Note that this can be different for different percents
Q 2. Once we achieve that goal. How do we follow it up and keep him in a bad position.
Q 3. What do we have to watch out for. How can we punish moves that are difficult to punish. How can we punish things in the most efficient manor. How can we escape our bad positions.
Here are some of my ideas to the answers to the questions I just asked... Note that what I think may not in fact be the best thing to do. Creativity comes very much in handy here. Get creative, throw out random things that just might work, feel free to argue with any point made by any player.
(On second thought, I don't have much time left to type this **** up so I'm going to be extremely broad right now. I'll expand on my ideas when I next get online in a few days. Everyone should think about the broad things I say. Try to expand off it. If you disagree, say what you think and why. etc.)
A 1. Get him in the air.
At low percents: utilt to upsmash get's him in the air pretty well ; Dair > utilt > usmash at certain percents ; dash attack > utilt > usmash at certain percents... Grabs are somewhat difficult to follow up at very low percents. utilting a bunch will often get you grenaded
Midpercent or higher: dair>utilt ; usmash ; grabs work very well
A 2. We're trying to keep him there.
If they are high in the air, you can:
Full jump > drop just a little and wait to see if they air dodge:
-If no air dodge: Jump and uair, spacing it right so that the 2nd hit just hits them, then
---If they air dodge at that point: dair immediately after your uair finishes, you'll hit them, and hopefully you spaced it right so you get to the ground while your hitting them. Then get them back into the air.
---If they pull a grenade, do an attack, or anything really, they're gonna get hit and you're going to be fine. And they're going to be high in the air.
-If they air dodge at that previous point: jump and punish them afterward with a dair or uair *note this is only if they are high. If they are low, you should land on the ground and usmash after the airdodge
If they are low, you can:
WALK!! towards them (you can't follow up their b reverses if you run) and:
-If they air dodge: usmash
-If they don't air dodge: Go right in front of where they're going to land, facing them, put up your shield right when they could hit you, then:
-If they attack: Grab or usmash during their long *** landing lag
-If they do nothing: Grab them during their couple frames of landing lag
#
Force Frontal by Chicken
I'm going to try to get SamuraiPanda to record a mm, my fox v his snake, and put it up here.
Good **** TJoe and Zhamy... need moar input from other peoples! :D
And if you don't agree with anything I said or think something would be better, debate my point and we'll weed out all but the really good ****.
After playing yesterday, I realized that if you hit a snake up, and they try to immediately up b way high up, you can usually double jump up to them fast and hit them when they start to rise with the up b... if you miss, oh well, you get to the ground fast and they still have to come down, and if they don't up b, just airdodge, fast fall, get to the ground before them...
A little trick I use sometimes - if you can scare him into shielding, Crossup Fair -> Utilt once against shield, react to whatever he ends up doing.
Is it possible to autocancel a fair from a sh if you time it right??
what do you guys do if the snake is trying to recover with c4, i sometimes try for a little dair spike but its not that effective and is risky, do you guys prefer to wait for the cypher instead?
I like get back to the stage. Then when they blow themselves up, try to time a bair or, without using your double jump, get to where they are going to fly to then hit them with a bair once they start their up b... If they stay off the edge and recover high, time a grab or usmash when they come down and get them back off the stage.
low % dthrow if he airdodges regrab or nair him, if you end up hitting with the weak part of nair you can try and regrab him, if you land a strong nair try dsmash
This is very good, but I would stick with grabbing over nairing. If you grab, you can throw and land another grab or hit off it. If you nair and they get away, then that is a squandered combo.
use your rapid a at the end of the stage, it can push him off and be dangerous
Good snakes will smash DI above you and bair you in many jab situations
something players have trouble with vs snake in the air is when he takes out a grenade when hes up there, whats the best way to punish this?
If you space a uair so the 2nd hit just hits him and you are a little to his front, you'll hit him and won't blow up. When he pulls the grenade, the grenade hit box is basically at snake's ***.
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Zhamy
07-21-2009 01:29 AM
Zhamy
"what do you guys do if the snake is trying to recover with c4, i sometimes try for a little dair spike but its not that effective and is risky, do you guys prefer to wait for the cypher instead?"
Depending on how close he is to the edge, I usually either drop a Nair or just laser him. I don't like using Dair offstage.
A little trick I use sometimes - if you can scare him into shielding, Crossup Fair -> Utilt once against shield, react to whatever he ends up doing.
* Report
#
Toronto Joe
07-20-2009 09:09 PM
Toronto Joe
what do you guys do if the snake is trying to recover with c4, i sometimes try for a little dair spike but its not that effective and is risky, do you guys prefer to wait for the cypher instead?
low % dthrow if he airdodges regrab or nair him, if you end up hitting with the weak part of nair you can try and regrab him, if you land a strong nair try dsmash
bthrow offstage if he jumps intercept it with a fair/uair if he jumps and airdodges you can dsmash him......learn to punish rolls with dsmash it does a good job
as for edgegaurding nair him to begin with and wait for his next cypher and follow it up with a bair
under the stage and hes above you can take out his cypher with firefox
use your rapid a at the end of the stage, it can push him off and be dangerous
if there stupid and try to jump out of your utilt you can just dair them and repeat the chain......sometimes after an utilt they di to the ground, tech chase usually they roll back, to ensure that you get them go for a dash attack
something players have trouble with vs snake in the air is when he takes out a grenade when hes up there, whats the best way to punish this?
get ***** by bowyers knowledge
Force Frontal by Chicken
More stuff that I remembered on snake:
If you hit him with an usmash, up throw, or something else from the ground and it sends them about double jump height, then you should single jump after and if they did an airdodge after getting hit, immediately jump up and hit them with a uair if they're above you, or a fair if they're a little in front of you.
The jump really high, time a uair to make them airdodge, and dair after, only works if they are really high in the air. If they aren't really high, jump at them if they airdodge, but otherwise just punish them on landing with a grab.
With edge guarding, if they up b, land a bair whenever you can.
If they roll through you, sh a dair into the ending spot and combo from there if they're at mid percent. Otherwise upsmash to get them high in the air if they're at high mid/high percent.
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#
Force Frontal by Chicken
07-19-2009 03:36 PM
Force Frontal by Chicken
Huge super long, lotta text advice on the snake matchup!!!
If we try to approach, the snake can usually see it coming and wreck our attempt.
Don't touch his shield, you're going to get hit.
Try to get him to approach you by using sh lasers. I prefer single lasers if they are on the ground. They're better than double lasers because you wait longer to shoot the first laser, so if you see them coming at you, you can choose to not laser and do something instead. You're also doing lasers for a little less total time so it's more difficult to punish.
If they do an ftilt, you can fake like you're going to go to punish it, try to bait the second ftilt hit, then go in afterward. You can do this by dash dancing: Go at them, go the opposite way, then if they did the second attack, go back towards and punish with a grab, dash attack, or grab depending on percent.
If they do an uptilt, run in right afterward and punish it.
If they do the third jab, go in right afterward.
You have to switch it up with these things, so go in and shield in front of them sometimes to draw things out or just run at them and dash attack or grab sometimes if they think you're going to run up and stay in front of them.
If they spot dodge next to you, always punish it. You can grab right afterward or sh a dair and it'll catch them.
If they airdodge at a low height into the ground, you can sh a dair, and it'll catch him on landing.
If snake pulls out a grenade and backs up towards you, remember that he really can't do anything so if go towards him, stand behind him, if he rolls away, run and hit him, if he does nothing, you can just grab him, or switch it up by just running and grabbing... Don't attack him when he's holding a grenade.
If he pulls out a grenade and walks towards you facing you, watch out for a grab. It will stop most of what you have. Just be patient and shoot lasers, wait for him to do something.
If he does the grenade throw, it has a lot of lag so if you're anywhere somewhat near him, you can get to him in time.
He's in the air, jump up and try to bait the air dodge. Up high, time uairs right cause you can uair, they airdodge, and you dair them afterward.
Don't just attack with something other than that without them airdodging cause they'll see it, air dodge through you, and get to the ground and we need to keep him in the air for as long as possible if you hope to beat a good snake.
If he airdodges, you can dair him to the ground, then hit him back up.
If he doesn't airdodge, just get to the ground first, go to where he's gonna land, put up your shield for the powershield in case he attacks, then grab him and get him back in the air.
If he attacks, get to the ground, at punish it afterward.
If he is going right above a platform, he doesn't have a jump, and he can't get around it, so he must land on the platform, then jump up and time a move to hit him on landing. If he's at decent percent, I would bair to get him off the stage. If he's at around 0, fair him. If he's at mid percent, dair to grab or utilt.
If you can throw him off stage, do it. His options from there will be jump back on stage, jump at the ledge, jump and upb.
If he jumps on the stage, run, shield, grab, throw back off.
If he jumps at the ledge, grab it before he can so that he has to up b. If he up b's next to the stage like an idiot, charge a dsmash so it hits him when he get's to you. If he up b's a little away, I like to jump to him, shine when he starts the sypher, then it puts you in great position to fair him from there, every hit hits, and he takes 28%, then go back to the edge and edge guard from there.
If he jumps and up b's, if you can land a bair, do it cause it *****. If you can't get to him a bair, jump and fair, then get to the ground and do work from there.
***I just thought of this and haven't tried it, but if he sh's towards the ledge, you may be able to sh a dair off the stage and link it to a shine and wreck him with it.
If you're above him and he's on the ground trying to hit you on landing. Shine and be patient.
*If he jumps and tries to hit, airdodge through it, you'll get to the ground first, and can hit him after.
*If he jumps, but doesn't attack, don't airdodge through because that's what he wants. Just shine, wait for him to have to land, then go to the side, fast fall, get away.
*If he waits at the ground directly under you, side b to a platform on the other side of the stage (make sure to long cancel so you get to the ground faster and further away, he shouldn't be able to punish it if you do it right.
*If he expects you to do that and waits between you and the other side of the stage, ff and hold the opposite way to get to the ground.
***Be patient getting to the ground, but as soon as they do something, immediately take the opportunity to get back to the ground.
Don't utilt to much in a row cause they'll bair you. If you dash attack around low percent, they can bair you, so watch out. But if you know that they know about that, you can bait it, then powershield it.
Remember that not everyone knows everything that snake can do to fox. So if you think that they don't know how to punish something, you can do that more. But if they figure it out, stop doing that. And if the punishment will be death or something cause you're at high percent and you're not sure if they know how to punish it, don't do cause they could get lucky or be hiding the fact that they know how to punish it cause they want you to do it when you are at high percent.
Don't just run in and be aggressive, but you should punish every single thing that you can. If they spot dodge in front of you, you better grab or dair every single time. If they airdodge above you, you better usmash every single time. If they wiff a utilt or something, punish it every single time.
I like to use usmash a ton, then laser a bunch when they're at kill percent to unstale it, then finish them with it.
You should kill them as soon as possible but don't force the kill. It's much easier to keep them in the air with grabs, so don't be afraid to use it over and over again if they're at high percent if that is all you can hit them with. Sooner or later, they'll do something that can be punished with a kill move, or you'll get them to a high enough percent where you can kill them without usmash. And remember dair combos into a kill move very nicely.
Watch their habits so you know what to watch out for... but remember that they know you are watching their habits so watch out for a quick switch up when you're at high percents and such.
I probably forgot a lot of stuff so if there is a situation that you run into that is bad, say it and we'll figure out a way to get around it.
***In this matchup, you need to keep them in the air for as long as freaking possible if you want to win. Practice keeping them up there. Set a goal for how much percent you give them after getting them in the air and not letting them down. You should try to get that up to 60 or 70%
* Report
#
Force Frontal by Chicken
07-19-2009 02:40 PM
Force Frontal by Chicken
Fair enough... and I guess people aren't exactly going to be studying how to beat fox...
* Report
#
Zhamy
07-19-2009 04:13 AM
Zhamy
To be honest, I think the Brawl community is too focused on "keeping stuff secret." I'm much more interested in metagame development, and to be honest, Fox players need to know every tool possible, and it's not like we're keeping Fox v MK secrets for when one of us goes up against M2K or something.
The other thing basically goes with the saying: "No normals, no game; know normals, know game." I think the Street Fighter community has some things right. When someone asks how to get better, you tell them to pick a normal and stick with it until you know EVERYTHING you can use it for. Same type of thing - Fox players should know everything about each individual move.
* Report
#
Force Frontal by Chicken
07-16-2009 04:14 PM
Force Frontal by Chicken
I think we should start off by breaking this matchup up a little bit. Here are a few of the things I think we should look at when looking at this matchup and I think we should start by focusing on them:
Q 1. If we are both on even ground what is our goal.
-By "Even Ground" I mean: Both players have a strong footing on the ground. Nobody is trying to follow anything up. Both players are trying to land their first hits.
-By "Goal" I mean: Where are we trying to get Snake to go. What is our most favorable position for him to be in. etc.
-Note that this can be different for different percents
Q 2. Once we achieve that goal. How do we follow it up and keep him in a bad position.
Q 3. What do we have to watch out for. How can we punish moves that are difficult to punish. How can we punish things in the most efficient manor. How can we escape our bad positions.
Here are some of my ideas to the answers to the questions I just asked... Note that what I think may not in fact be the best thing to do. Creativity comes very much in handy here. Get creative, throw out random things that just might work, feel free to argue with any point made by any player.
(On second thought, I don't have much time left to type this **** up so I'm going to be extremely broad right now. I'll expand on my ideas when I next get online in a few days. Everyone should think about the broad things I say. Try to expand off it. If you disagree, say what you think and why. etc.)
A 1. Get him in the air.
At low percents: utilt to upsmash get's him in the air pretty well ; Dair > utilt > usmash at certain percents ; dash attack > utilt > usmash at certain percents... Grabs are somewhat difficult to follow up at very low percents. utilting a bunch will often get you grenaded
Midpercent or higher: dair>utilt ; usmash ; grabs work very well
A 2. We're trying to keep him there.
If they are high in the air, you can:
Full jump > drop just a little and wait to see if they air dodge:
-If no air dodge: Jump and uair, spacing it right so that the 2nd hit just hits them, then
---If they air dodge at that point: dair immediately after your uair finishes, you'll hit them, and hopefully you spaced it right so you get to the ground while your hitting them. Then get them back into the air.
---If they pull a grenade, do an attack, or anything really, they're gonna get hit and you're going to be fine. And they're going to be high in the air.
-If they air dodge at that previous point: jump and punish them afterward with a dair or uair *note this is only if they are high. If they are low, you should land on the ground and usmash after the airdodge
If they are low, you can:
WALK!! towards them (you can't follow up their b reverses if you run) and:
-If they air dodge: usmash
-If they don't air dodge: Go right in front of where they're going to land, facing them, put up your shield right when they could hit you, then:
-If they attack: Grab or usmash during their long *** landing lag
-If they do nothing: Grab them during their couple frames of landing lag
#
Force Frontal by Chicken
I'm going to try to get SamuraiPanda to record a mm, my fox v his snake, and put it up here.
Good **** TJoe and Zhamy... need moar input from other peoples! :D
And if you don't agree with anything I said or think something would be better, debate my point and we'll weed out all but the really good ****.
After playing yesterday, I realized that if you hit a snake up, and they try to immediately up b way high up, you can usually double jump up to them fast and hit them when they start to rise with the up b... if you miss, oh well, you get to the ground fast and they still have to come down, and if they don't up b, just airdodge, fast fall, get to the ground before them...
A little trick I use sometimes - if you can scare him into shielding, Crossup Fair -> Utilt once against shield, react to whatever he ends up doing.
Is it possible to autocancel a fair from a sh if you time it right??
what do you guys do if the snake is trying to recover with c4, i sometimes try for a little dair spike but its not that effective and is risky, do you guys prefer to wait for the cypher instead?
I like get back to the stage. Then when they blow themselves up, try to time a bair or, without using your double jump, get to where they are going to fly to then hit them with a bair once they start their up b... If they stay off the edge and recover high, time a grab or usmash when they come down and get them back off the stage.
low % dthrow if he airdodges regrab or nair him, if you end up hitting with the weak part of nair you can try and regrab him, if you land a strong nair try dsmash
This is very good, but I would stick with grabbing over nairing. If you grab, you can throw and land another grab or hit off it. If you nair and they get away, then that is a squandered combo.
use your rapid a at the end of the stage, it can push him off and be dangerous
Good snakes will smash DI above you and bair you in many jab situations
something players have trouble with vs snake in the air is when he takes out a grenade when hes up there, whats the best way to punish this?
If you space a uair so the 2nd hit just hits him and you are a little to his front, you'll hit him and won't blow up. When he pulls the grenade, the grenade hit box is basically at snake's ***.
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Zhamy
07-21-2009 01:29 AM
Zhamy
"what do you guys do if the snake is trying to recover with c4, i sometimes try for a little dair spike but its not that effective and is risky, do you guys prefer to wait for the cypher instead?"
Depending on how close he is to the edge, I usually either drop a Nair or just laser him. I don't like using Dair offstage.
A little trick I use sometimes - if you can scare him into shielding, Crossup Fair -> Utilt once against shield, react to whatever he ends up doing.
* Report
#
Toronto Joe
07-20-2009 09:09 PM
Toronto Joe
what do you guys do if the snake is trying to recover with c4, i sometimes try for a little dair spike but its not that effective and is risky, do you guys prefer to wait for the cypher instead?
low % dthrow if he airdodges regrab or nair him, if you end up hitting with the weak part of nair you can try and regrab him, if you land a strong nair try dsmash
bthrow offstage if he jumps intercept it with a fair/uair if he jumps and airdodges you can dsmash him......learn to punish rolls with dsmash it does a good job
as for edgegaurding nair him to begin with and wait for his next cypher and follow it up with a bair
under the stage and hes above you can take out his cypher with firefox
use your rapid a at the end of the stage, it can push him off and be dangerous
if there stupid and try to jump out of your utilt you can just dair them and repeat the chain......sometimes after an utilt they di to the ground, tech chase usually they roll back, to ensure that you get them go for a dash attack
something players have trouble with vs snake in the air is when he takes out a grenade when hes up there, whats the best way to punish this?
get ***** by bowyers knowledge
My post on spacing isn't deleted. That link you tried to use is not correct because it got cropped, replacing a large chunk of the middle with a "....".
Toronto Joe
Smash Master
Asce
Smash Apprentice
So by definition our version of far spacing would be lasers and close spacing would be moves such as Bair, Utilt, etc? how can we apply whats there to Fox is what Im saying. Thats the interpretation that I picked up from it.
Toronto Joe
Smash Master
it applies to fox because you need to be very aware of your spacing/zoning in this matchup due to snakes devastating power...baiting and reacting then punishing is very crucial...read the 2 posts above you'll understand what were talking about
for example his mortar slide...bait it by using laser or spaced fairs/nairs,staying just outside of his ftilt range when he commits to that move you know that he can ONLY go forward with the slide, from then on we listed how to punish it
basically your working to limit his options and at the same time creating openings based on your knowledge of what works/doesnt
for example his mortar slide...bait it by using laser or spaced fairs/nairs,staying just outside of his ftilt range when he commits to that move you know that he can ONLY go forward with the slide, from then on we listed how to punish it
basically your working to limit his options and at the same time creating openings based on your knowledge of what works/doesnt
Toronto Joe
Smash Master
6/4 snake imo
Uzima (Uzi)
Smash Lord
not sure if you guys said this yet, but fox's drill can clank snakes morter shell
>.>
just saying
>.>
just saying
crifer
Smash Lord
I realized today that I played the match-up too campy and I always get punished for that.
Patience and a few lasers is the key.
I would say 55:45 for Snake.
Patience and a few lasers is the key.
I would say 55:45 for Snake.
GUARD
Smash Journeyman
is it me or is this one of those own or get owned senario.lol I'm either putting snake in a position where he struggles HARDCORE or he puts Fox in a bad position. lol
oOTjayOo
Smash Apprentice
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8PgDPVTRMA
I fought this snake with my Fox. my fox isnt very good yet though. This snake is pretty good. Can any1 tell me how play better on this?
I fought this snake with my Fox. my fox isnt very good yet though. This snake is pretty good. Can any1 tell me how play better on this?
Conviction
Human Nature
This is not the right place..... Video thread please....
Ralph Cecil
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Mar 9, 2010
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- Somewhere in KY QQQQQQQQQQ
- NNID
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- 4098-4850-8033
I'm sort of confused on how this would be a advantage for Snake or 50:50 even. From what i've seen Fox stops Snakes camping and can wait for him to approach and punish him for doing so. He can shield poke which means Snake is at a disadvantage up close. Fox along with about everyone can beat Snake in the air. I don't mean to sond like a troll or some douche or something, I was just trying to see how Fox doesn't have a moderately nice advantage on Snake.
4Biddin
Smash Journeyman
Agree 100%. I think snake just can deal so much damage so quickly that It keeps the match up 50/50. A nade and a full ftilt is about 35 percent
Fox has to work harder to deal damage safely.
Conviction
Human Nature
You read his post wrong he wants to know why it isn't Fox's adv.
Also no Fox deals damage faster than Snake does.
Also no Fox deals damage faster than Snake does.
Ralph Cecil
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Mar 9, 2010
- Messages
- 2,416
- Location
- Somewhere in KY QQQQQQQQQQ
- NNID
- RalphCecil
- 3DS FC
- 4098-4850-8033
Were you saying that as in Snake deals more damage, or Fox deals more damage?