Match-Up Export #3: Diddy Kong | Creating Summary

[Conviction]

Match-Up Export
Fox vs. Diddy​

________________________________

Things to keep in mind while discussing!

* Keep a proper wording, 
don't insult or yell at the other people discussing inside of this thread. 
Although that shouldn't even be mentioned, I've seen it happen.

* Match-Up ratios are fairly subjective. 
However, please don't overrate or underestimate a character. 
Stuff like "lol, X can't do anything, RAEP!" is not going to aid us in our discussion.

* Don't theorycraft too much. 
Keep in mind that while Fox or the character we're discussing in this thread
are able to do a certain move at a certain time, don't just throw this out, 
but rather think if this is actually practical and used by good players of these characters.

* If you are new to the discussion, please don't state trivial things.
Best would be to read the discussion properly, 
or at least the first and last few pages should the thread go on for a while already. 
Saying "Fox can reflect all of X's projectiles." might be true, 
but probably has already been mentioned.

* Discussions will be held for about 2 weeks - unless the need of expanding is felt.
The first week will bring a temporary ratio that then will corrected during the second.

With this in mind, we shall start the discussion!

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DIDDY KONG

KEY POINTS

Advantages


Disadvantages


Summary


IN-DEPTH DISCUSSION
Strategy & Match-Up Mentality

Aerial Game:
Ground Game:
Approach:
Defense:
Camping Game:
Edge Game:
Surviving:
Killing:
Frame Data:

Stages
Stage Striking
* Possible Fox Strikes
* Possible Diddy Strikes
* To Be Classified:

Battlefield, Final Destination, Smashville, Yoshi's Island (Brawl), 
[COLOR="Yellow"]Castle Siege, Halberd, Lylat Cruise, Pokémon Stadium 1[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Yellow"]Yellow indicates a stage that is not commonly a starter, but possible. 
Neither player should depend on these[/COLOR]

Stage Banning
* Possible Fox Bans
* Possible Diddy Bans
* To Be Classified:

Battlefield, Final Destination, Smashville, Yoshi's Island (Brawl), 
Castle Siege, Delfino Plaza, Halberd, Lylat Cruise, Pokémon Stadium 1, Brinstar, 
Frigate Orpheon, Jungle Japes, Pictochat, Pirate Ship, Pokémon Stadium 2, 
Rainbow Cruise, [COLOR="Yellow"]Yoshi's Island (Pipes), Green Greens, Port Town Aero Dive, 
Distant Planet, Luigi's Mansion, Norfair[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Yellow"]Yellow indicates a stage that is not commonly legal, but possible. 
Neither player should depend on these[/COLOR]

Stage Counterpicks
* Possible Fox Counterpicks
* Possible Diddy Counterpicks
* To Be Classified:

Battlefield, Final Destination, Smashville, Yoshi's Island (Brawl), 
Castle Siege, Delfino Plaza, Halberd, Lylat Cruise, Pokémon Stadium 1, Brinstar, 
Frigate Orpheon, Jungle Japes, Pictochat, Pirate Ship, Pokémon Stadium 2, 
Rainbow Cruise, [COLOR="Yellow"]Yoshi's Island (Pipes), Green Greens, Port Town Aero Dive, 
Distant Planet, Luigi's Mansion, Norfair[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Yellow"]Yellow indicates a stage that is not commonly legal, but possible. 
Neither player should depend on these[/COLOR]

Possible Secondaries


Videos & Other Outside Resources

Videos

Verdict
60:40 ​

Note: This is a temporary ratio that might change after the in-depth discussion

 

[Ingulit]

I'm going to preempt this by saying that I'm nowhere near good enough to say that Fox or Diddy has an advantage in a given situation, nor have I played enough good Foxes to make judgments on how to play the match-up. From those I have played, however, this is what I have concluded (these are just some points to discuss):

I've only played a few good Foxes a few times, but I can say that on flat stages Diddy can hurt a lot of Fox's approaches by simply staying behind a Bananas on the ground. This is a great strategy for Diddy when he has reached U-Smash killing percents, because it's hard for a Fox to safely pick up the grounded Banana (especially if the Diddy player has one in hand) and aerial approaches are likewise telegraphed and more easily avoided. This makes landing a Hyphen Smash considerably harder, thus making killing harder.

I've noticed that Diddy seems to do better when he is NOT throwing Bananas at Fox, but is rather using them for stage control. Fox has a great reflector, so the few Banana throws at Fox need to be smart, else they get reflected (unless he is purposefully baiting the reflector). It's what I said above; grounded Bananas hurt Fox's approach, in some cases more than thrown Bananas. (this is not to say Diddy shouldn't throw Bananas in the match-up, he's still going to be chucking them at Fox a lot)

If you can get a few Bananas reflected or under your control, you can probably JC Throw > Hyphen Smash (or even Shine > JC Throw > Hypen Smash MAYBE... I was going to post a Banana combo along those lines) to get off a kill. Of course, Fox can trip Diddy and subsequently tech chase him. Here's one thing that I've noticed many players do: Fox should NOT throw a Banana over the edge to "get rid of it"; rather, it is more useful to "diffuse" it (put it on the ground and leave it there) and keep Diddy away from it, especially for a defensive character. This allows Fox to continue to chase Diddy on the ground while Diddy can't pull out any more Bananas. If Fox has just killed Diddy, for example, he might want to throw some Bananas near the edge up instead of over to keep them alive longer. This will make Diddy unable to use his invincibility frames to pull out new Bananas.

Fox can be gimped out of using his Side-B to recover by Peanuts or well-timed Banana throws, so he should always be wary of where any off-stage projectiles are when recovering. In the same vein, it is VERY easy for Fox to Shine Spike Diddy out of his Up-B if he is forced to recover from below the stage (or you can simply drop a Banana on his head if he's really far down). Obviously, this is a situation most good Diddys should avoid.

Because Fox is such a fast-faller, Diddy can combo multiple U-Tilts and U-Smashes into each other when Fox is at lower percents which will cause a lot of damage if not SDI'd out of quickly. It is very similar to Fox's U-Tilt lock in both appearance and use, except it will likely be started out of a Dash Attack instead of a D-Air.

I'll edit in more later if I can think of anything else.

 

[Zephil]

Ok I have a lot of experience in this matchup so here are some facts:

Fox:
-lighter (Diddy has better momentum cancel than us also)
-Usmash kills Diddy at 85% with bad/no DI
-Firefox beats Diddy´s dair (not 100% sure about this) so spikes are easy to avoid
-better recovery
-reflector affects a lot Diddy
-better camping ability
-Fox prefers platforms

Diddy:
- better aerial game
- can kill Fox in 80% if not careful with his refreshed Dsmash
- has a better control of the ground with his bananas
- peanut and banana stop Fox´s Illusion
- better juggling ability
- easier to being gimped

I will add more later... right now I am lazy

 

[DarkAura]

one of my friends i play frequently mains diddy...

With proper Stage control i got ***** really hard. seriously you don't reflect a naner without getting punished so you can ALMOST rule that out unless your like across the stage

im terrible with match up discussion so im not going to say more unless asked for my opinion

 

[Jtails]

id say diddy has the advantage soley because of recover purposes. they both kill each other equally, though diddy has better stage control vs fox's camp game.
my opinion is 55:45 diddy's favor possibly 60:40

 

[GaretHax]

Feel Free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I've played a few ddK's and well.

Fox-
Faster
More mobile
Easier to shut down
Difficult approaches
Lacking comparable Priority on attacks
Tempted to play an offensive game when defence is far easier against ddk
Upsmash and backair can finish ddk at 75-90% (100% offs most characters w/out good DI)
Short hop grounded up-airs can prove leathal to ddk if it lands even at low%'s
Waveshines can mess up even the best ddk's game

Diddy Kong-
Easily edgecamped
Hard to spike fox because he moves so much faster
Faster, harder hitting, higher priority moves compared to fox
Forces Fox into mainly an air or defensive game (both of which ddk is better at)
Bannanas can be used to cripple Fox's approaches and severely limit options
Peanut camping is very possible
ddks throws can kill fox at relatively low percentage
Fox b-air vs ddk b-air (if executed at same time) ddk's hits fox's is ignored
Easily juggled by fox up to 50% with up tilts

ddk 65% fox 35% IMO

 

[Player-1]

It's 60:40 IMO.

I don't care about anything in between, but Fox has a REALLY hard time killing Diddy, or even approaching for that matter. If Diddy puts a banana right in front of him then the Fox can't Usmash, the banana forces a dash attack if you try to Usmash. If he tries to Dair>Smash he'll hit the banana first before he can smash. Fox's Bair is pretty easy to avoid.

I'm going to post more after school today since I have to go now >.>

 

[Fenrir VII]

Just want to point out that Fox has no problem picking bananas up.

SH lagless Fair covers the front quite well, autocancels, and is one of the most priority moves Fox has... so just SH fair those bananas.

Then Dash J-cancel Item toss gives free usmashes and such... so the banana game isn't too rough.


And Fox doesn't really have too much trouble killing diddy, lol...

And Fox can gimp like nothing else with rising dair... that move is so good against Diddy's recoveries... sure, he shouldn't gimp every life, but it's a legitimate threat to diddy in every match.

Seriously, Fox wins the recovery vs edgeguarding game here

nah, this one I definitely call even. Most Fox players are terrible in the matchup, from what I've seen and heard, but I personally love it.

 

[AvaricePanda]

Banana toss to (insert attack here) doesn't make a good banana game by any standards, nor does having a good aerial to pick them up with. They sure help, but what matters most in most situations is your ability to control and actually get bananas from Diddy.

I'm going to have to agree with Ingulit and Player-1; bananas help with stage control and baiting a LOT more than they do than throwing into whatever combo or whatever in this match-up (this is really true in all match-ups, but more accented in this one). What Player-1 said about Fox having a hard time actually killing Diddy is true; if Diddy just keeps a banana in front of him at all times if he's at kill percentages, Fox can't directly U-smash. To pick it up, he'd have to dash attack, jump and air-dodge, or SH F-air or other aerial, all of which would be baited and punishable by Diddy if he has another banana or not.

Things like your SH F-air that auto-cancel and such may sound good on paper, but since F-air lasts quite a bit while short hopped, and Diddy isn't going to be that aggressive in this match-up anyway (so covering yourself while picking up a banana is somewhat useless), then more than likely you'll be punished for trying to pick up a banana that's close to him.

Both characters can edge-guard each other well depending on situation. Fox's D-air can gimp Diddy's up-B, but Diddy can upB and arc around the ledge so that by the time he's at the ledge, his barrels have disappeared. If he gets D-aired then, he can immediately upB or sideB back to the ledge/stage to avoid a gimp. Z-dropped or D-thrown bananas/timed F-airs can intercept Fox's Illusion/Fire-fox, but he generally doesn't get gimped.

Fox's B-air, while a problem if it hits your shield, can be avoided altogether because of the difficulty to approach with Diddy's banana control; if there's a banana in front of him, you can only really approach with short hop approaches (B-air is likely) or attempt to pick it up (but most likely get punished). With bananas, Diddy can be at a range where he can't be hit, but punish most of whatever you choose to do, so he can space himself away from a potential B-air altogether before it hits him or his shield.

If it does hit Diddy's shield, it becomes a large guessing game; Fox could possibly try to grab you, but Diddy could OoS glide toss a banana to you if he has one, but you could reflector, so he could dribble away, but you could dash attack as soon as you land and intercept his dribble, or he could spot-dodge or stay in shield altogether, or he could reverse OoS U-smash to try to counter whatever you do, etc.

In general, since Fox has lasers, Diddy won't be staying far away from Fox though. However, he can be at a range where banana throws, monkey flips and monkey flip kicks, and if he gets slightly closer, F-airs and D-tilts can pose a problem to Fox. Fox can try to get inside Diddy in this situation by dashing at the time he throws a banana and doing a JC shine or SH air dodges or whatever, but in general if he has two bananas (which more than likely he will, or at least one if he's approaching), it's difficult to enter Diddy's range without being punished or pressured.

If Diddy gets a banana trip, he can combo you longer than most because of your fast fall speed; U-tilts chain at lower percents similar to your U-tilt strings, and two D-tilts combo at higher percents against him. B-throw is also good at low-mid percents for tech-chasing and keeping him low to the stage.

Other than that, I agree with what Player-1 said, his bananas break strings of whatever you try to do quite well.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Nah, SH Fair is a safe way to pick up bananas... How exactly would that be punished?

I'm not saying it drastically changes the match or anything, but people had been posting as if Fox will have to dash attack to pick up bananas, and that's not true.

Fox has a really good inside punishment game in this match, but it's a bit difficult to get inside...

I feel like Fox is the better edgeguarder in the match by quite a large margin, simply because his recovery is somewhat more adaptable than Diddy's...

and of course there is a killing scare with Fox, as always.

 

[DarkAura]

actually FF airdodge onto a banana works IIRC so give that a try... if it doesn't and you lose the match.. blame me

 

[AvaricePanda]

Diddy typically has two bananas the majority of the time. With one in front of him and one in his hands, if you SH F-air'ed the first one, he could throw the second one at you. If he didn't have another banana, he could possibly monkey flip kick, or maybe F-air and trade hits (whatever it does, haven't tested it).

While it isn't true that Fox has to dash attack to pick up bananas, any way he picks it up, Diddy can typically punish if he's at mid-range (and the majority of time this would be the case).

Diddy's recovery is also adaptable, it's the same way that he's able to avoid gimps by MK (but still get edgeguarded, hurr similarity here). Monkey flip and drift if you're high at the stage, and charge barrels far from the stage if you're on stage level or below it. Fox can't chase you and gimp you at the distance you're charging barrels, while if he stays at the edge to edge-guard, at least Diddy's avoiding a gimp because he'd be arcing his barrels across the stage (still get edgeguarded though).

Neither character would consistently get gimps, but as far as actual edge-guarding goes, it's pretty much even. Fox can halt or punish Diddy's recovery as well as Diddy can, but both can avoid that. Both characters can also get back to the ledge pretty consistently as well (Fox by mixing rising F-airs, shines, etc., Diddy by using bananas or plucking a banana at the ledge).

As Player-1 said, it's a lot harder for Fox to in general get kills, and I've found this to be the case. If Diddy has a banana in front of him, then you can't directly dash U-smash or whatever, and it begins the whole process of baiting a reaction and punishing it with Diddy (the reaction usually being avoiding or trying to pick up the banana in some form) and it's even more accentuated when Diddy has a banana in hand. Dash attack, SH F-air, air-dodge, whatever? All punishable. SH-Dair or N-air? Same thing. Even if Diddy's approaching, he can just keep a banana in front of him and avoid a direct U-smash.

edit: Yes, FF or rising air-dodges both work to pick up bananas.

 

[Sosuke]

You can just jump and press Z to pick it up.

 

[Player-1]

Nah, SH Fair is a safe way to pick up bananas... How exactly would that be punished?

I'm not saying it drastically changes the match or anything, but people had been posting as if Fox will have to dash attack to pick up bananas, and that's not true.

Fox has a really good inside punishment game in this match, but it's a bit difficult to get inside...

I feel like Fox is the better edgeguarder in the match by quite a large margin, simply because his recovery is somewhat more adaptable than Diddy's...

and of course there is a killing scare with Fox, as always.

Easy...you shield...then grab...it's a brand new thing that just came out, changes the brawl metagame completely, actually. It takes quite a bit of tech skill, but once you get it down it's pretty useful.

Or just go up under it and Uair him, and I'm not sure, but I think Diddy's fair beats fox's.

You can just jump and press Z to pick it up.

which is also easy to punish. No, the best thing to do would probably to do a rising air dodge and cancel it with a retreating instant throw, but the Diddy's haven't even gotten that down yet...

 

[Sosuke]

I think just grabbing it is less punishable.

 

[Player-1]

I think just grabbing it is less punishable.

just running over there and grabbing it is less punishable that anything except the instant throw I was talking about. But remember, the purpose of this isn't not to get hit and punish, it's not get hit by a kill move and punish. Dash attacking is still good along with aerials or air dodge, but Diddy is still living to 200...by this time I could really care less if you laser camped me and got another 50% doing it, pretty much past 180, most things in the move set can kill you.

I actually played samboner on wifi a few days ago, and I know it's wifi, but still samboner is the best fox on wifi. I lived to 200 one stock and 180 another. 1 time he killed my with a utilt, and the other was when he got me when I misplaced the banana and he had just barely enough room to Dair>dsmash me, and I ended up JV 2 stocking him.

 

[GaretHax]

Like I said Diddy Kong 65% Fox 35%
Diddy Kong overpowers most of foxes moves with his own high- priority moves and can cover alot of fox's options at once without too much trouble. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fyr9QPCgfzQ&feature=related Thats a good fox ddk fight its easier on ddk than Fox.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Diddy typically has two bananas the majority of the time. With one in front of him and one in his hands, if you SH F-air'ed the first one, he could throw the second one at you. If he didn't have another banana, he could possibly monkey flip kick, or maybe F-air and trade hits (whatever it does, haven't tested it).

Nah, SH Fair and drift back, or simply air dodge it... aerials won't counter that... but why would Fox go for a banana directly in front of diddy anyway? Diddy doesn't always play that zoning game, with one directly in front of him... often, he's mid-range zoning, throwing the nanner's forward, which is an easy grab for Fox... That's all I'm saying... he doesn't have to pick them up with the super punishable dash attack, as somebody suggested, and most Foxes seem to forget.

Diddy's recovery is also adaptable, it's the same way that he's able to avoid gimps by MK (but still get edgeguarded, hurr similarity here). Monkey flip and drift if you're high at the stage, and charge barrels far from the stage if you're on stage level or below it. Fox can't chase you and gimp you at the distance you're charging barrels, while if he stays at the edge to edge-guard, at least Diddy's avoiding a gimp because he'd be arcing his barrels across the stage (still get edgeguarded though).

Neither character would consistently get gimps, but as far as actual edge-guarding goes, it's pretty much even. Fox can halt or punish Diddy's recovery as well as Diddy can, but both can avoid that. Both characters can also get back to the ledge pretty consistently as well (Fox by mixing rising F-airs, shines, etc., Diddy by using bananas or plucking a banana at the ledge).

MK doesn't have a low-sending move, though... Fox does. Dsmash makes Diddy recover from just above the horizontal and combos from dair between 50 and 60% with good knockback.

MK also doesn't have a long lasting, downward sending aerial. Fox does. These cannot be compared, even if MK is one of the best edgeguarders in the game. so basically, the main move that will ever knock diddy off the stage is dsmash (Fsmash is used for some spacing) or Bair... Dair > Dsmash at 50% will put Diddy to close to 80%... and even assuming Diddy barrel Rockets back onto stage, Fox has time to dash and land an usmash that would come close to killing (and kill on some stages) during diddy's lag... and of course, if he hits the Dair > Dsmash at 60 or 70, and the same occurs, Diddy dies, without question.

Diddy doesn't have anything that can set Fox low, so he can always recover high... and Diddy can cover a decent size stage with bananas, but still can't boast to be nearly as effective an edgeguarder... Fox has one attack that eliminates all of Diddy's options at a certain height that another of his attacks promotes recovery from...

Run off stage > rising dair beats monkey flip ... and any option Diddy does to avoid it takes long enough for Fox to get into position to punish the new thing... It's not going to be guaranteed, but I don't see how Diddy limits Fox's options nearly as well.

As Player-1 said, it's a lot harder for Fox to in general get kills, and I've found this to be the case. If Diddy has a banana in front of him, then you can't directly dash U-smash or whatever, and it begins the whole process of baiting a reaction and punishing it with Diddy (the reaction usually being avoiding or trying to pick up the banana in some form) and it's even more accentuated when Diddy has a banana in hand. Dash attack, SH F-air, air-dodge, whatever? All punishable. SH-Dair or N-air? Same thing. Even if Diddy's approaching, he can just keep a banana in front of him and avoid a direct U-smash.

edit: Yes, FF or rising air-dodges both work to pick up bananas.

But... Fox never dash usmashes randomly, anyway... so that banana in front of him is guarding against the Fox player being stupid in the first place...

I mean, if you want to get technical, a perfectly spaced Fox Nair on Diddy's shield grabs the banana, and avoids a shield grab, while causing shield stun...

While Diddy does shut down some on-stage games, it's certainly not easier for Diddy to get kills in the matchup. lol

Easy...you shield...then grab...it's a brand new thing that just came out, changes the brawl metagame completely, actually. It takes quite a bit of tech skill, but once you get it down it's pretty useful.

Or just go up under it and Uair him, and I'm not sure, but I think Diddy's fair beats fox's.

Lol don't be cocky if you don't know what you're talking about... Fox will never land in shield grab range with a fair... come on.

Fox hits the Fair, and either fades it back, or continues forward past the shield... neither of which gets the uair... and I believe Fox's Fair outranges Diddy's anyway...

please don't post things like this "shield grab" argument... especially in that manner, if you don't know what you're talking about...

 

[Zhamy]

Like I said Diddy Kong 65% Fox 35%

Please leave; you don't know what you're talking about. The match you posted also shows less than stellar play from both characters, and your "arguments" have just been statements that have been either 1) blatantly false or 2) not definitive of the matchup.

I'm telling you this now to save you embarrassment later; you'll either be ignored or flamed.

 

[GaretHax]

Please leave; you don't know what you're talking about. The match you posted also shows less than stellar play from both characters, and your "arguments" have just been statements that have been either 1) blatantly false or 2) not definitive of the matchup.

I'm telling you this now to save you embarrassment later; you'll either be ignored or flamed.

Blatently bad play? Huh, i didn't think they were too horrible, but by all means please do feel free to post a better match. And as far as being flamed goes i don't have much to loose considering i just got flamed anyway. Reguardless, rather than just state that my points are false, by all means please feel free to elaborate. I would very much like to know your opinions as to how I am incorrcect and would honestly love to hear your own thoughts about this matchup. After all this is a discussion about the matchup not my post. Feel free to add to it rather than simply stateing that I am wrong. Though i suppose you are right. My last post was admittadly a little pessimistic, i personally hate fighting ddk, but thats just me. Feel free to as aforementioned add to the discussion.

 

[Player-1]

Nah, SH Fair and drift back, or simply air dodge it... aerials won't counter that... but why would Fox go for a banana directly in front of diddy anyway? Diddy doesn't always play that zoning game, with one directly in front of him... often, he's mid-range zoning, throwing the nanner's forward, which is an easy grab for Fox... That's all I'm saying... he doesn't have to pick them up with the super punishable dash attack, as somebody suggested, and most Foxes seem to forget.



MK doesn't have a low-sending move, though... Fox does. Dsmash makes Diddy recover from just above the horizontal and combos from dair between 50 and 60% with good knockback.

MK also doesn't have a long lasting, downward sending aerial. Fox does. These cannot be compared, even if MK is one of the best edgeguarders in the game. so basically, the main move that will ever knock diddy off the stage is dsmash (Fsmash is used for some spacing) or Bair... Dair > Dsmash at 50% will put Diddy to close to 80%... and even assuming Diddy barrel Rockets back onto stage, Fox has time to dash and land an usmash that would come close to killing (and kill on some stages) during diddy's lag... and of course, if he hits the Dair > Dsmash at 60 or 70, and the same occurs, Diddy dies, without question.

Diddy doesn't have anything that can set Fox low, so he can always recover high... and Diddy can cover a decent size stage with bananas, but still can't boast to be nearly as effective an edgeguarder... Fox has one attack that eliminates all of Diddy's options at a certain height that another of his attacks promotes recovery from...

Run off stage > rising fair beats monkey flip ... and any option Diddy does to avoid it takes long enough for Fox to get into position to punish the new thing... It's not going to be guaranteed, but I don't see how Diddy limits Fox's options nearly as well.



But... Fox never dash usmashes randomly, anyway... so that banana in front of him is guarding against the Fox player being stupid in the first place...

I mean, if you want to get technical, a perfectly spaced Fox Nair on Diddy's shield grabs the banana, and avoids a shield grab, while causing shield stun...

While Diddy does shut down some on-stage games, it's certainly not easier for Diddy to get kills in the matchup. lol



Lol don't be cocky if you don't know what you're talking about... Fox will never land in shield grab range with a fair... come on.

Fox hits the Fair, and either fades it back, or continues forward past the shield... neither of which gets the uair... and I believe Fox's Fair outranges Diddy's anyway...

please don't post things like this "shield grab" argument... especially in that manner, if you don't know what you're talking about...

LMFAO! So much fail in this one post.

Alright, first off.

MK doesn't have a low-sending move, though... Fox does. Dsmash makes Diddy recover from just above the horizontal and combos from dair between 50 and 60% with good knockback.

MK also doesn't have a long lasting, downward sending aerial. Fox does. These cannot be compared, even if MK is one of the best edgeguarders in the game. so basically, the main move that will ever knock diddy off the stage is dsmash (Fsmash is used for some spacing) or Bair... Dair > Dsmash at 50% will put Diddy to close to 80%... and even assuming Diddy barrel Rockets back onto stage, Fox has time to dash and land an usmash that would come close to killing (and kill on some stages) during diddy's lag... and of course, if he hits the Dair > Dsmash at 60 or 70, and the same occurs, Diddy dies, without question.

1. If MK hits Diddy during his barrels he'll usually go down and that can be done with a long lasting aerial like nair
2.LOL @ he'll die from being hit with a Dair at 60. You could try...iunno DIing up...? It won't go too high, but it's not going to send him 'down'. If you try edgeguarding with fair or dair offstage, Diddy can just up-b onto the stage or to the edge, and Fox won't have time to get back on stage after that especially if he does a rising fair or dair because both his up-b and side-b have quite a bit of lag between the start and stop of the attack, if he's on stage then Diddy is free to use his side-b to recover.

Diddy doesn't have anything that can set Fox low, so he can always recover high... and Diddy can cover a decent size stage with bananas, but still can't boast to be nearly as effective an edgeguarder... Fox has one attack that eliminates all of Diddy's options at a certain height that another of his attacks promotes recovery from...

Against Fox, my main goal of edgeguarding wouldn't be to gimp him, it'd be to pressure him offstage with anything I can and rack up a **** load of damage while doing it. When a space animal is recovering against me, I like to charge peanuts to line up with their side-b or up-b, although, Fox is the hardest due to him having the best recovery of the 3 and the fact that one laser can out prioritizes it, but not a banana which also works well. Another thing I like to do is pull out 2 bananas and surround the most likely place Fox will try to recover on stage to and then drop onto the ledge which forces him to land on the stage if he's far enough, mid range it becomes harder since he can recover to the middle of the stage with the phantasm from that distance.

Run off stage > rising fair beats monkey flip ... and any option Diddy does to avoid it takes long enough for Fox to get into position to punish the new thing... It's not going to be guaranteed, but I don't see how Diddy limits Fox's options nearly as well.

Already said before, a rising fair requires a mid air jump from offstage and with Fox's long recovery option he won't get on stage fast enough unless he retreats the fair which won't give him enough range offstage for him to pressure Diddy enough for him to be forced to use his side-b, he could wait it out of the fair then use it or use up-b.

But... Fox never dash usmashes randomly, anyway... so that banana in front of him is guarding against the Fox player being stupid in the first place...

Actually, I see Foxs do a normal walk backwards to a dash > Usmash somewhat often and works pretty well, 'randomly' doing anything is a good idea sometimes if it's 'random' just for unpredictability, and this goes for any char.

I mean, if you want to get technical, a perfectly spaced Fox Nair on Diddy's shield grabs the banana, and avoids a shield grab, while causing shield stun...

While Diddy does shut down some on-stage games, it's certainly not easier for Diddy to get kills in the matchup. lol

If the banana is as close as I'm describing, then I'm pretty sure Nair nor fair will be able to hit Diddy's shield and pick up the banana and then retreat, and if he does Diddy has his incredible Dash attack that can reach him if he SHs and I'm still pretty sure that Diddy's Fair will beat both of them.

And still, using Dair against Diddy is still very risky, since Fox is a fastfaller he can be comboed by diddy for a while and at high percents he can be killed, Diddy has OoS glidetossing which makes it very easy to punish a lot of things that hit his shield.

Lol don't be cocky if you don't know what you're talking about... Fox will never land in shield grab range with a fair... come on.

Fox hits the Fair, and either fades it back, or continues forward past the shield... neither of which gets the uair... and I believe Fox's Fair outranges Diddy's anyway...

please don't post things like this "shield grab" argument... especially in that manner, if you don't know what you're talking about...

As said earlier, I think if the banana is close enough he won't be able to pick the banana up without being in shield grab range, and if he does he can still be punished with aerials. And this 'grabbing a banana with an aerial' or anything like that is ALL assuming that Diddy doesn't have his 2nd banana in his hand which will be even easier to punish. Diddy can still jump and throw the banana.

Please don't be an ignorant douche if you don't know what you're talking about.

 

[Sosuke]

Try to stay mature in this discussion, please.

 

[Red Arremer]

Try to stay mature in this discussion, please.

Yea, this isn't Meta Knight we're talking about, after all.

 

[Fenrir VII]

LMFAO! So much fail in this one post.

Alright, first off.

1. If MK hits Diddy during his barrels he'll usually go down and that can be done with a long lasting aerial like nair

Ok.. but MK doesn't have an attack on stage that sends Anybody at a low angle... that's my point... MK's tools, and Fox's tools for edgeguarding are completely different, so to compare the two for the sake of a debate is incorrect.

2.LOL @ he'll die from being hit with a Dair at 60. You could try...iunno DIing up...? It won't go too high, but it's not going to send him 'down'. If you try edgeguarding with fair or dair offstage, Diddy can just up-b onto the stage or to the edge, and Fox won't have time to get back on stage after that especially if he does a rising fair or dair because both his up-b and side-b have quite a bit of lag between the start and stop of the attack, if he's on stage then Diddy is free to use his side-b to recover.

I said it sends just above horizontal... That's with DI up. I did not say that dsmash sends "down" I said it sends "low", which it does... It sends under a 45 degree angle.

whoa whoa... you're not understanding me, which I can admit will be in part my fault...
Using rising dair, Fox runs off stage, then second jumps back onto the stage with dair... it covers the ledge and stage from horizontal recoveries... it is very useful against characters such as Falco and Wolf, and also works against Diddy.
If the fox is sure the dair will hit, he doesn't have to DI back onto the stage, and can follow to shine the barrel recovery. This makes the Diddy really have to mix it up, since Fox can get onto the edge for an edgehog, should the Diddy delay timing, or have to upB back on...

I also did not say that dair at 60% kills diddy, but it certainly puts him in an incredibly risky position, in which Fox can cover almost every option with a single maneuver... leading to either a gimp, or a possible usmash. I do not see any situation in edgeguarding that gives Diddy the same power over Fox's recovery.

Against Fox, my main goal of edgeguarding wouldn't be to gimp him, it'd be to pressure him offstage with anything I can and rack up a **** load of damage while doing it. When a space animal is recovering against me, I like to charge peanuts to line up with their side-b or up-b, although, Fox is the hardest due to him having the best recovery of the 3 and the fact that one laser can out prioritizes it, but not a banana which also works well.

Any Fox who is recovering where peanut or banana could hit his illusion is doing it wrong. This is mostly assuming Fox will illusion or firefox at stage level or slightly above, which should never happen, unless Diddy leaves the edge completely open.

Another thing I like to do is pull out 2 bananas and surround the most likely place Fox will try to recover on stage to and then drop onto the ledge which forces him to land on the stage if he's far enough, mid range it becomes harder since he can recover to the middle of the stage with the phantasm from that distance.

If you are going to edgehog the ledge, you cannot also cover the stage effectively, due to invincibility frames and ledge lag. If you are on the ledge so that you are invincible (and thus would stay on the ledge through either a firefox or illusion, you will not have the time to punish a banana trip, if Fox goes the other way.. While I agree this is a pretty risky position, Fox always does have an option here, and it comes to rock paper scissors.

Already said before, a rising fair requires a mid air jump from offstage and with Fox's long recovery option he won't get on stage fast enough unless he retreats the fair which won't give him enough range offstage for him to pressure Diddy enough for him to be forced to use his side-b, he could wait it out of the fair then use it or use up-b.

I already stated that the point is for Fox to go back to the edge, but in my post, I made a typo, I meant rising dair, which upon hit can lead to a shine spike, and if it is mis-guessed, Fox can get on the ledge before Diddy has another option.

Actually, I see Foxs do a normal walk backwards to a dash > Usmash somewhat often and works pretty well, 'randomly' doing anything is a good idea sometimes if it's 'random' just for unpredictability, and this goes for any char.

Then you are seeing bad play. Fox always has a better/safer option... and has safer moves that lead or combo into usmash... so realistically, "random" or not, Fox should never just run and usmash you.

If the banana is as close as I'm describing, then I'm pretty sure Nair nor fair will be able to hit Diddy's shield and pick up the banana and then retreat, and if he does Diddy has his incredible Dash attack that can reach him if he SHs and I'm still pretty sure that Diddy's Fair will beat both of them.

I'm sure nair can, but using fair to grab a banana should not be hitting your shield anyway... that's not the point of using fair to grab bananas... I typed that last time, when I said that fair is good for picking up mid-range bananas... not a banana so close to shield.

And still, using Dair against Diddy is still very risky, since Fox is a fastfaller he can be comboed by diddy for a while and at high percents he can be killed, Diddy has OoS glidetossing which makes it very easy to punish a lot of things that hit his shield.

it's easy for most characters to punish attacks on shield, but that doesn't limit the use of dair... Dair is mainly a punishing attack... (as a punisher, I can't really argue its use in a matchup discussion, but it does come into play moreso in actual matches).

And really, shine stalling into dair or bair or nothing really to reset spacing without too much risk. Your usmash and uair both have too much ending lag to use as a reliable punisher for this (if you guess wrong on the shine, you get daired) and utilt could be baired, etc... again, this is too much of a mind-game scenario to use in a matchup discussion... I am just trying to make the point that Fox can land dairs here...

As said earlier, I think if the banana is close enough he won't be able to pick the banana up without being in shield grab range, and if he does he can still be punished with aerials. And this 'grabbing a banana with an aerial' or anything like that is ALL assuming that Diddy doesn't have his 2nd banana in his hand which will be even easier to punish. Diddy can still jump and throw the banana.

you're simply wrong here... you can grab a banana and be out of shield grab range.

And Fair drifts so far back that another banana in hand isn't all that terrible anyway... and why couldn't Fox just FH an aerial to pick up a banana anyway? or falling air dodge... or disregard the banana and bair behind you... this isn't a win all scenario.

Please don't be an ignorant douche if you don't know what you're talking about.

I won't, but in this case, I do know what I'm talking about.

Try to stay mature in this discussion, please.

Ok... sorry about that, but the way in which he said things made me want to respond. I'll keep things more professional in the future.

 

[Player-1]

I said it sends just above horizontal... That's with DI up. I did not say that dsmash sends "down" I said it sends "low", which it does... It sends under a 45 degree angle.

whoa whoa... you're not understanding me, which I can admit will be in part my fault...
Using rising dair, Fox runs off stage, then second jumps back onto the stage with dair... it covers the ledge and stage from horizontal recoveries... it is very useful against characters such as Falco and Wolf, and also works against Diddy.
If the fox is sure the dair will hit, he doesn't have to DI back onto the stage, and can follow to shine the barrel recovery. This makes the Diddy really have to mix it up, since Fox can get onto the edge for an edgehog, should the Diddy delay timing, or have to upB back on...

I also did not say that dair at 60% kills diddy, but it certainly puts him in an incredibly risky position, in which Fox can cover almost every option with a single maneuver... leading to either a gimp, or a possible usmash. I do not see any situation in edgeguarding that gives Diddy the same power over Fox's recovery.

No, Diddy can definitely be able to see that and react to it in time, and if you try to edgehog Diddy the Diddy can just go on stage and if you stay on stage then Diddy can get on the edge. You CAN position the barrels so that you can grab the ledge if someone isn't there and have it so that you go on stage if they get on the edge, and if you're not in your invincibility frames then you'll get hit with a potential stage spike.

You said that if a Fox lands a Dair to dsmash at 60 or 70 that we will die without question.

Any Fox who is recovering where peanut or banana could hit his illusion is doing it wrong. This is mostly assuming Fox will illusion or firefox at stage level or slightly above, which should never happen, unless Diddy leaves the edge completely open.

If not then they're recovering above or below then. Above and you run the risk of being punished with lag, below and you run the risk of being edgehogged, gimped, or get a Fair when you land on stage.

Then you are seeing bad play. Fox always has a better/safer option... and has safer moves that lead or combo into usmash... so realistically, "random" or not, Fox should never just run and usmash you.

no, they're is no guaranted combo into a Usmash, maybe a Dair, I'm unfamiliar with that, but that's more predictable. Random and being unpredictable is always a valid try.

If you are going to edgehog the ledge, you cannot also cover the stage effectively, due to invincibility frames and ledge lag. If you are on the ledge so that you are invincible (and thus would stay on the ledge through either a firefox or illusion, you will not have the time to punish a banana trip, if Fox goes the other way.. While I agree this is a pretty risky position, Fox always does have an option here, and it comes to rock paper scissors.

Not if you land right on the edge then you can punish with a Fair, plus if you land on the banana then you have the chance of rolling back into or to the other one, unless you do a normal get up which still has the chance of being punished.

I'm sure nair can, but using fair to grab a banana should not be hitting your shield anyway... that's not the point of using fair to grab bananas... I typed that last time, when I said that fair is good for picking up mid-range bananas... not a banana so close to shield.

A nair can still be punished in the same manner or similar.

it's easy for most characters to punish attacks on shield, but that doesn't limit the use of dair... Dair is mainly a punishing attack... (as a punisher, I can't really argue its use in a matchup discussion, but it does come into play moreso in actual matches).

And really, shine stalling into dair or bair or nothing really to reset spacing without too much risk. Your usmash and uair both have too much ending lag to use as a reliable punisher for this (if you guess wrong on the shine, you get daired) and utilt could be baired, etc... again, this is too much of a mind-game scenario to use in a matchup discussion... I am just trying to make the point that Fox can land dairs here...

agreed, but I was just trying to make the point that if Fox misses it can be a whole stock off.

you're simply wrong here... you can grab a banana and be out of shield grab range.

And Fair drifts so far back that another banana in hand isn't all that terrible anyway... and why couldn't Fox just FH an aerial to pick up a banana anyway? or falling air dodge... or disregard the banana and bair behind you... this isn't a win all scenario.

you stated earlier that Fair shouldn't hit the shield, and the nair still gets punished. I never said Fox couldn't FH, in fact, FH was what I had in mind. A falling air dodge will be punished with a grab. When Fox approaches you like this, most of the time Diddy will have his shield up, so a bair wouldn't work.

 

[Fenrir VII]

No, Diddy can definitely be able to see that and react to it in time, and if you try to edgehog Diddy the Diddy can just go on stage and if you stay on stage then Diddy can get on the edge. You CAN position the barrels so that you can grab the ledge if someone isn't there and have it so that you go on stage if they get on the edge, and if you're not in your invincibility frames then you'll get hit with a potential stage spike.

You said that if a Fox lands a Dair to dsmash at 60 or 70 that we will die without question.

I said if Fox hits a dair > Dsmash, and Diddy barrel rockets onto the stage, Fox can usmash his lag and kill him without question... not what you said.

assuming diddy is recovering from about eye level, a rising dair beats both of these options, so now, it's not really a choice. Diddy has to resort to some other tactic to get back on stage.
I understand that the barrels can grab the ledge, but again, it's not all that hard to edgehog or ledge drop nair against that to beat it.

Again, my point is not that Fox gimps or successfully edgeguards diddy every time... it is that he has better options against Diddy's recovery than Diddy has on his.

If not then they're recovering above or below then. Above and you run the risk of being punished with lag, below and you run the risk of being edgehogged, gimped, or get a Fair when you land on stage.

Those are the options, yes... but diddy has to choose the correct one. a firefox from a 45 degree angle (AP rolls his eyes) gives you the option of recovering fairly deep into the stage or going for the ledge... Diddy cannot cover both options very effectively here... and that is just one option.

Fox also has the multiple shortenings of Illusion, allowing him to go for the ledge or very deep into the stage... so either way, Diddy has to guess the correct recovery to punish... so it's not automatic.

no, they're is no guaranted combo into a Usmash, maybe a Dair, I'm unfamiliar with that, but that's more predictable. Random and being unpredictable is always a valid try.

This quote proves that you simply don't know much of anything about Fox as a character, and should not be discussing this matchup.

Dair and Nair both combo directly into usmash... and are MUCH less punishable than just a random usmash. I really can't believe I'm explaining this, though...

Not if you land right on the edge then you can punish with a Fair, plus if you land on the banana then you have the chance of rolling back into or to the other one, unless you do a normal get up which still has the chance of being punished.

not sure why Fox would ever land right on the edge in normal circumstances, but sure for theorycrafting.

A nair can still be punished in the same manner or similar.

same manner as what?

agreed, but I was just trying to make the point that if Fox misses it can be a whole stock off.

This is a bit of exaggeration, considering normal play. I realize that there is a rare occurrence of 0-death combos... but it's certainly not reliable.

you stated earlier that Fair shouldn't hit the shield, and the nair still gets punished. I never said Fox couldn't FH, in fact, FH was what I had in mind. A falling air dodge will be punished with a grab. When Fox approaches you like this, most of the time Diddy will have his shield up, so a bair wouldn't work.

Nair gets punished by what, exactly? And Bair autocancels out of your grab range... so if just a shield hit, it's worth it... weakened shields are Dair bait.

 

[AvaricePanda]

N-air, F-air, and all of that would be punished by thrown bananas/monkey flip kicks/whatever. If you're picking up a banana at mid-range with an aerial, or hitting Diddy's shield with anything that isn't B-air, Diddy can retaliate with OoS glide toss, OoS throw, or just jumping throw to hit you.

Not to say that auto-cancelled B-air on our shield isn't good, but I've tested the whole D-air eating shields thing and have been able to prevent myself from being poked from it for a bit farther than what I expected. Plus, if I have my shield chipped, I'm going to be more wary of things like D-airs that would poke my shield, and would try to punish them before they happen.

To be fair, a random dash U-smash may work better than a D-air or N-air U-smash, depending on situation. D-air to U-smash or N-air to U-smash doesn't always combo (and I've found myself DIing or shielding right before the U-smash hit me on the D-air to U-smash, although it might have been because I wasn't at the right percents to be comboed from it). Both of those are punishable, D-air moreso, and it's more predictable as well. If you SH above me, not only am I going to be wary of D-air and try to punish and/or avoid it altogether, but if I do get hit and know an U-smash is coming, I'd have better DI than say I landed with bad lag and you dash->U-smashed me.

Tbh, like every Fox I've ever played has tried to do simple dash or run to U-smash at least once in our matches, some as a mix-up for their regular approaches, and some just because they aren't great players and use it a bunch. Putting a banana in front of you is a valid way to stop that, plus approaches in general are halted because you're either having to SH over the banana, or use some way to avoid it/pick it up, all of which Diddy can punish if he waits behind with a second.

Fox nor Diddy really get gimps, and as far as edgeguarding goes, both have options against each others recoveries but can't counter all of them at once. IMO, the edgeguarding happens more evenly because it becomes more player vs. player and predicting options than anything else, but I'd say Fox has the slight advantage simply because he can gimp Diddy easier if he messes up.

I still don't understand why you think a 45 degree Firefox is a good recovery though. Maybe in other situations, but against a character with lasting or quick aerials, or a character with effective projectiles (it'd work better if Diddy didn't have bananas, but the chances of that are rare; if he didn't have them before, he'd use the opportunity of you being offstage to pluck more) I don't see it happening. The way I see it (I think you're explaining it this way) he can either go towards the ledge, in which case Diddy can banana throw or F-air if he's near the ledge, or Fox can go horizontally inside the stage or in an angle towards the stage past the ledge, both of which Diddy can wait out and punish afterwards. He can punish all of the options on reaction or a combination of both (if Diddy F-airs because he thinks you'll go towards the ledge, but you go inside the stage, he can double jump and throw another banana or monkey flip back to you depending on spacing).

 

[Fenrir VII]

N-air, F-air, and all of that would be punished by thrown bananas/monkey flip kicks/whatever. If you're picking up a banana at mid-range with an aerial, or hitting Diddy's shield with anything that isn't B-air, Diddy can retaliate with OoS glide toss, OoS throw, or just jumping throw to hit you.

I don't believe Diddy has the time to punish Nair on the shield either, but I could be wrong... this is a small point, however... if a banana is somewhere midway between Fox and Diddy, SH FAir drift back is safe against everything you just mentioned.

And you are all assuming that Diddy will always have a banana in hand. While I agree that he should for much of the match, there are definite times that Diddy will not be holding a banana, simply because of the risk of pulling one out at the time. If Diddy pulls a banana on the ground, he's begging for an aerial or usmash. If he pulls it in the air, Fair or Uair.

This does not completely eliminate Diddy's banana game. I'm not saying that... it makes times in the matchup where Diddy won't be able to pull a banana... and thus will not be holding one, eliminating practically all of your OoS options.

Not to say that auto-cancelled B-air on our shield isn't good, but I've tested the whole D-air eating shields thing and have been able to prevent myself from being poked from it for a bit farther than what I expected. Plus, if I have my shield chipped, I'm going to be more wary of things like D-airs that would poke my shield, and would try to punish them before they happen.

That's fair... It's mainly just another option, but Diddy's shield seems to cover him better than MK's does. It's still something possible, and makes Bair hits on shield still useful... but not as useful as against MK and Snake.

To be fair, a random dash U-smash may work better than a D-air or N-air U-smash, depending on situation. D-air to U-smash or N-air to U-smash doesn't always combo (and I've found myself DIing or shielding right before the U-smash hit me on the D-air to U-smash, although it might have been because I wasn't at the right percents to be comboed from it). Both of those are punishable, D-air moreso, and it's more predictable as well. If you SH above me, not only am I going to be wary of D-air and try to punish and/or avoid it altogether, but if I do get hit and know an U-smash is coming, I'd have better DI than say I landed with bad lag and you dash->U-smashed me.

Now, Usmashing landing lag is not random at all... and it was not the scenario in which dash usmash was presented... Fox should almost always punish landing lag with something, and usmash is one of the best things for this...

It was presented as Fox just running in and usmashing (Walk back to dash usmash), and that is never a good option in normal play. And aerial, especially one that can slightly outspace shield grab, is the better option.

And Dair is a good option if only because being above Diddy doesn't really put you in a BAD situation, per se... it gives you the option to try a dair, or retreat and reset spacing... depending on how the diddy reacts to any shine stalling and fast falling, etc.

Tbh, like every Fox I've ever played has tried to do simple dash or run to U-smash at least once in our matches, some as a mix-up for their regular approaches, and some just because they aren't great players and use it a bunch. Putting a banana in front of you is a valid way to stop that, plus approaches in general are halted because you're either having to SH over the banana, or use some way to avoid it/pick it up, all of which Diddy can punish if he waits behind with a second.

Diddy's banana game is good, yes. ok.
But Foxes shouldn't be just dashing into that scenario trying to usmash (although the usmash can hit right before the trip, eliminating its ending lag into a trip animation)

I mean, really, if nothing else, a FH bair on the back of diddy sliminates the situation and makes Diddy reset, if absolutely nothing else... so I don't really find that situation too terrible at all.

Fox nor Diddy really get gimps, and as far as edgeguarding goes, both have options against each others recoveries but can't counter all of them at once. IMO, the edgeguarding happens more evenly because it becomes more player vs. player and predicting options than anything else, but I'd say Fox has the slight advantage simply because he can gimp Diddy easier if he messes up.

I posted a situation where Fox can cover every option. Is it guaranteed? no, but it should always be a scare.

I still don't understand why you think a 45 degree Firefox is a good recovery though. Maybe in other situations, but against a character with lasting or quick aerials, or a character with effective projectiles (it'd work better if Diddy didn't have bananas, but the chances of that are rare; if he didn't have them before, he'd use the opportunity of you being offstage to pluck more) I don't see it happening. The way I see it (I think you're explaining it this way) he can either go towards the ledge, in which case Diddy can banana throw or F-air if he's near the ledge, or Fox can go horizontally inside the stage or in an angle towards the stage past the ledge, both of which Diddy can wait out and punish afterwards. He can punish all of the options on reaction or a combination of both (if Diddy F-airs because he thinks you'll go towards the ledge, but you go inside the stage, he can double jump and throw another banana or monkey flip back to you depending on spacing).

It's one of the hardest options to punish... even since Melee... being high enough to avoid projectiles, and have the option of the ledge or the stage.. it's a seriously good option.

When used i n a huge mixup with stalling and the differently canceled illusions, it gives Fox a way back onto the stage in nearly every scenario and matchup...

I suppose it's not exactly 45 degrees, but more like 30-40 degrees from the plan of the stage.

If Fox goes toward the ledge, the Fair is not going to hit him... I realize this is a limitation of my explaining it, but it will go under the fair. The banana maybe, when perfectly time,d, but he'll be able to illusion catch the ledge then anyway... while diddy is trying to cover the other option.

This isn't how Fox should be recovering every time. I'm not saying that... Fox just has more recovery options here than Diddy does, as well as a few more gimping options.

 

[Palpi]

Diddy should never be using a falling aerial with substantial landing lag (F-air)

Also recovering, if the diddy uses his flip before his jump, it will be very difficult to gimp him.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Diddy should never be using a falling aerial with substantial landing lag (F-air)

Also recovering, if the diddy uses his flip before his jump, it will be very difficult to gimp him.

I never said anything about Diddy's landing with Fair... ??

Fox's game against some characters is to punish the actual landing lag... not lag from an aerial.



And yes, Diddy can do that, but also would risk Nair or Fair or even Bair as an edgeguard even then.

 

[SnowballBob33]

i read like half of all that
Lets think about other situations.
-If fox picks up a banana and hits diddy with it, most likely that means usmash.
-Fox can pick up bananas while retreating
-Fox can hit diddy with a banana then dair
-Fox's shine doesn't do much in terms of reflecting bananas. It can catch them off guard though and lead to banana control

What are things fox can do if when he does control bananas? I know from experience that you can improvise some impressive things, but I'm not sure how much of that was me or fox.

 

[Toronto Joe]

i saw someone say a nana infront of diddy haults our approach, what the hell lol

throw nana down > dsmash is good up close
the obvious trip to > usmash
throw nana down,come down with a dair > whatever

just avoid the nana locks, recover smart(peanut gimps are possible),if fox wasnt such a fastfalling basterd the matchup would be in his favor,but hes easily combod....55:45 diddy at the most however

ill come back with useful stuff latr

 

[Zhamy]

i saw someone say a nana infront of diddy haults our approach, what the hell lol

Every time I saw this in the thread I started laughing.

 

[ADHD]

We have a 60-40 advantage over your char. Your best approach against us is dair in the back/front of your shield and unfortunately we can punish the minor lag it has and we'll fsmash you. Please tell me ONE thing you can do when we have a banana in our hand, and don't say camp, because we can easily get past falcos who spam lasers with HITSTUN. Diddy will rarely ever get gimped by fox, and if it does happen it's because he was silly and somehow recovered from directly under the ledge with his barrels. Your reflector is useless, we can side b grab it or easily glidetoss it up and grab it. We have a million options against it. The only thing fox can do is bait them into making a mistake or trying to punish something the wrong way, then get diddy while he's vunerable. We also laugh when you have to kill us.

I play rookie and joe a ton, I know what i'm talking about >_<. He beats fox by simply holding a banana in his hand and shielding, of course there is alot in between but that's basically all I have to do.

 

[Fenrir VII]

I play rookie and joe a ton, I know what i'm talking about >_<. He beats fox by simply holding a banana in his hand and shielding, of course there is alot in between but that's basically all I have to do.

Don't know about Joe, but Rookie has explicitly stated that he's not too comfortable with the matchup, so that name drop doesn't really matter...

And no, our best approach is not to FH dair. lol

And one thing we can do with Diddy in his shield holding a banana?

uh... run up and shield. or attack your shield with any low-lag aerial... mostly Bair, with no fear of reciprocation... or try to bait a dodge or GT and punish... or several other things. That situation isn't unwinnable..

And I listed times where Fox can gimp Diddy... so.... no, it's not just from directly below the stage...

 

[ADHD]

^^^ I have NEVER been gimped in any other situation from below the stage, and it was always my fault. And we can punish your bair too if it hits our shield, even if it autocancels. We throw out items on FRAME 3, if you hit our shield it's coming out while you have those minor landing lag frames. You'll trip.

 

[Fenrir VII]

^^^ I have NEVER been gimped in any other situation from below the stage, and it was always my fault. And we can punish your bair too if it hits our shield, even if it autocancels. We throw out items on FRAME 3, if you hit our shield it's coming out while you have those minor landing lag frames. You'll trip.

Your personal experience does not exactly mean that Fox can't do it... That's kinda faulty logic.

As far as I know, I am the only one who's really pushed the rising dair edgeguards, so I may be the only one doing it... *shrug* I have no idea, to be honest, but again, because you haven't been gimped does not mean that Fox doesn't have the tools to do so...

Also, basically what I am talking about is setting you below the stage through the use of the dair, so you technically would be below the stage for the actual "gimp"... but that's unimportant.

And yes, you throw items on frame three, but with proper bair spacing, the banana will take a few frames in flight, and I really can't see how a landing would take more time than this. so no, I really doubt you can, with proper bair spacing.

 

[Zhamy]

As far as I know, I am the only one who's really pushed the rising dair edgeguards, so I may be the only one doing it... *shrug* I have no idea, to be honest, but again, because you haven't been gimped does not mean that Fox doesn't have the tools to do so...

Just FYI, I talked about this a really long time ago, but it's situational and most people don't like it. But yes, it does work - just run off the stage, jump and Dair at the same time, and you'll get enough distance to get you back on stage or grab the ledge, depending on your timing. It's not always reliable, but it makes recovering right next to the edge a bit scarier.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Just FYI, I talked about this a really long time ago, but it's situational and most people don't like it. But yes, it does work - just run off the stage, jump and Dair at the same time, and you'll get enough distance to get you back on stage or grab the ledge, depending on your timing. It's not always reliable, but it makes recovering right next to the edge a bit scarier.

Oh yeah, I knew you did... and I was a huge proponent of it in matchups like Falco and Wolf...

I was mainly meaning that most actual Foxes I see forget this edgeguard even works... and stand on stage or try a spike or something... Especially since nobody's ever seen your fox. lol

 

[Toronto Joe]

i usually just edgeguard with drop down nair if hes recovering from below, lasts long enough so at the very least you hit with the soft part,still wont let diddy up-b back in time