Match-Up Export #3: Diddy Kong | Creating Summary

ADHD · Sep 3, 2009

I give up, maybe in te future it will be changed to 60-40 when people realize

Melomaniacal · Sep 6, 2009

Zephil said:
-Firefox beats Diddy´s dair (not 100% sure about this) so spikes are easy to avoid

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwIJUmMlq48
0:17

Also, our up-tilt beats your down-air. I'm pretty sure about this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4gdTirCu4Y
0:47

C.R.Z · Sep 6, 2009

id say this match up is in fox's favour
- yes reflector isnt effective on diddy when he throws nanas IF spaced inccorectly,if spaced correctly diddy trips
- both fox's dash atk and nair are both excellent tools for picking up opponents nanas
- fox has some really gd nana combo's(argubly better than diddys)
- lazers screw with peanuts(not incredibly important)
- diddy will have a hard time killing you without his nana game
- you never really have to approach since fox has reflector and lazers

seriously id say this match up is 60 : 40 fox favour

crifer · Sep 6, 2009

@ cloudrain = what??? your crazy man O.o
50:50 at best,
I think 55:45 or 60:40 diddy,
bc shine or not shine, he will punish us,
I would spend the most of the time in the air, and try to airdodge a lot ( but not to predictable so he can punish your landing with a nana)
i like nair and dair as edgeguards, (dair can be followed with a shinespike or a fotstool)...
55:45 diddy

DarkAura · Sep 6, 2009

CloudRain said:
id say this match up is in fox's favour
- yes reflector isnt effective on diddy when he throws nanas IF spaced inccorectly,if spaced correctly diddy trips
yes but the reflector basically makes it drop right in front of you as opposed to making it fly towards diddy, the point of reflecting isn't to get the naner to hit him off the reflection it's so you can pick it up yourself and jump cancel a throw leading into a combo, most useful would be upsmash at higher percents.
- both fox's dash atk and nair are both excellent tools for picking up opponents nanas
yes but usually when diddy see's you going for bit naner he's going to react offensively and keep you at bay
- fox has some really gd nana combo's(argubly better than diddys)
not really... naner>upsmash is pretty broken but other than that i could only reason dair as a combo starter from nana and by then Diddy would have already rolled
- lazers screw with peanuts(not incredibly important)
true
- diddy will have a hard time killing you without his nana game
not true, his ground game is fairly superior imo, and his air game is just a little worse than ours. Your going to have trouble getting to him, and not having a naner game is out of the question diddy will ALWAYS have a banana.
- you never really have to approach since fox has reflector and lazers
his lasers don't stun, reflector is a high risk/reward move.

seriously id say this match up is 60 : 40 fox favour

replies in red...

zomg im helping with MU discussion, this is a first

AvaricePanda · Sep 6, 2009

CloudRain said:
id say this match up is in fox's favour
- yes reflector isnt effective on diddy when he throws nanas IF spaced inccorectly,if spaced correctly diddy trips

Whether or not Diddy trips from a banana reflected depends on Diddy's spacing, not Fox's. Was he in the air when he threw it, was he glide tossing forward, was he glide tossing backwards, etc? Diddy can keep himself at a range where even if you reflect it, there isn't direct punishment.

But either way, reflecting bananas isn't such a great idea anyway. A lot of what Diddy uses for bananas is to control space and punish lag; a lot of the time when you get hit by a banana, you were already doing some other action and couldn't quit it. And if you weren't, you could just as well shield it, then short hop and Z-catch it (something everyone but Yoshi can do). You may reflect a couple of bananas in a match, but you can hardly rely on it. Once you start doing that, Diddy can bait reflectors with dribbles and punish them with monkey flips or dash attacks or whatnot.

- both fox's dash atk and nair are both excellent tools for picking up opponents nanas

Both Diddy's dash attack and every aerial are excellent tools for picking up bananas.
...

Quite frankly, this doesn't matter as much again. The only thing truly worth mentioning about picking up bananas would be Diddy's dash attack, because the time from the final hitbox of it to the time he can jump or grab out of it is very small, and it's harder to punish. If you dash attack to pick up a banana, Diddy can just shield, and either grab or banana throw to punish you. If you N-air, Diddy can banana throw or Monkey Flip. If you're near him and you use one of those options, it's generally obvious, and Diddy can punish whatever you do. If you're far away, it doesn't matter what you'd use to pick up the banana, as it'd be unpunishable regardless.

To be honest, you could just air-dodge into the ground or rising air-dodge to pick it up, as well as Z-catch from the ground (but that's harder to do consistently) but still, whatever you do to pick up bananas is probably punishable.

- fox has some really gd nana combo's(argubly better than diddys)

Mind explaining specifically what these combos are?

For Diddy, a trip to dash attack will lead to any one of his aerials, depending on where the dash attack sends you and the percent you're at. There's always trip to U-smash, trip to U-tilt (which works well on Fox given his fast fall speed, at low percents it will do quite a bit of damage), trip to double D-tilts (again, works on Fox) or D-tilt to grab or something, and trip to monkey flip kick if you're too far away for a dash attack to reach.

Just some.

And people need to realize that the amount of banana combos you have doesn't equate to how good your banana game is. What matters most is your ability to control and utilize them. If you have a reliable 10-15% follow-up and are able to limit Diddy (or if you're Diddy, your opponent)'s options to, "Get hit by this or get hit by this," or be able to pressure Diddy into getting away from his bananas and taking them relatively safely, or able to diffuse bananas and make it excruciatingly hard for Diddy to use bananas, then you have a good anti-Diddy banana game.

If, however, you have some 30-40% combo or trip to whatever kill move, but you get zoned by Diddy's bananas before you get a chance to get one, and you have to rely on Diddy messing up for you to get a banana, and even when you get a banana you don't have good options that you can do with just the banana other than diffuse it, and Diddy still does well against you with 1 or even no bananas, then you don't have a good anti-Diddy game despite, "omg combo into kill move or 40% combo lulz"

- lazers screw with peanuts(not incredibly important)

Okay.

- diddy will have a hard time killing you without his nana game

Diddy won't reliably be without his banana game though, so this is unimportant. The converse can be said that Fox will have a hard time killing Diddy if he zones correctly.

- you never really have to approach since fox has reflector and lazers

Reflector doesn't do much with him not having to approach, it's the lasers. But Diddy can stay at mid-range, where if Fox lasers, he gets punished, and Diddy can pressure with his banana throws. Fox might approach at this point, or Diddy might continue to approach. It's really whoever wants to.

C.R.Z · Sep 6, 2009

well i guess most of what i said is debatable... this is just what ive found from playing lots of diddys lately. 60-40 prob is a tad bit high but i still think its in fox's favour...i really do

718_ROOKI3 · Sep 6, 2009

Time to get started

Stage Striking: Battlefield, Yoshi's

Stage Banning: Smashville, Final D

Stage CP'ing: Rainbow, PS1, Norfair, Brinstar

Diddy Kong AKA Broken Kong

These are the moves I feel we need to know by frame data, so we know what to stay away from and what we can challenge

Frame Data

Bananas Frame 20(Appears)
Neu.B Frame 14
For.B Frame 19(Grab + Hit) Frame 4(Just Kick)

Fair Frame 6
Bair Frame 5
Dair Frame 13

Fsmash Frame 12
Dsmash Frame 6(Front) Frame 15(Back)

Dtilt Frame 4
Ftilt Frame 10

Dash Attack Frame 9

Banana Combo's/Tricks:

1. Aerial Banana Dthrow *banana trip* Dair(re-grabs banana) Ground toss *banana trip* Upsmash

Anywhere from 0-10%

1. Ftilt *banana trip* Fsmash *banana trip* Upsmash
2. Ftilt *banana trip* Fsmash *banana trip* Fsmash
3. Ftilt *banana trip* Dair>JJC>Grab
4. Ftilt *banana trip* Dash attack>Utilt>Utilt
5. Ftilt *banana trip* Grab
5. Ftilt *banana trip* Dsmash

Anywhere from 15-20%

1. Ftilt *banana trip* Ftilt *banana trip* Ftilt *banana trip* Ftilt *banana trip*

Auto KO Trap

1. Ground toss *banana trip* Grab release *banana trip* Upsmash

There is a whole lot more but give me time.

Aerial Game
Ground Game
Approach
Defense
Surviving
Killing
Edge Game

Zhamy · Sep 8, 2009

a lot of the time when you get hit by a banana, you were already doing some other action and couldn't quit it.

I don't understand why you keep making statements like these when it shows you clearly don't understand Fox. After getting hit by a projectile, Fox can buffer a jump, roll, dash, or shield out of his reflector in the first 3 frames.

I'm pretty sure we can "quit it," as you like to call it.

Fenrir VII · Sep 8, 2009

Fox should almost never reflect in this match

He should be able to land some gimps...
and he should be able to reliably kill before 100% every life. maybe 120%, but that is seriously pushing it.

Diddy has good stage control with banana games, but Fair or FH anything is a safe way to pick up bananas... and Fox can gain a lot from a single banana...

Diddy should stay on the ground the majority of the match.

Fox should be approaching most of the time in the match... Diddy isn't worth it to camp, because he eats that alive... lasers are nice for a short break, but that mid range zone games beats your camping all day...

Fox HAS to put pressure on Diddy and make it unsafe to pull and use bananas... which he can.

If using bananas then has some sense of risk to it, then Fox controls the match.

AvaricePanda · Sep 8, 2009

Zhamy said:
I don't understand why you keep making statements like these when it shows you clearly don't understand Fox. After getting hit by a projectile, Fox can buffer a jump, roll, dash, or shield out of his reflector in the first 3 frames.

I'm pretty sure we can "quit it," as you like to call it.

I'm not talking about after it hits his reflector. I'm talking about when it hits you in any lag.

You can't arbitrarily end 10 frames of landing lag from whatever aerial you're doing or cancel it into a shine whenever you're about to get hit.

He should be able to land some gimps...
and he should be able to reliably kill before 100% every life. maybe 120%, but that is seriously pushing it.

Diddy has good stage control with banana games, but Fair or FH anything is a safe way to pick up bananas... and Fox can gain a lot from a single banana...

It seems like this entire post was what you originally said and ignored what player-1/ADHD/and I said about things.

Fox can land gimps, it's feasible if he does or doesn't. However, Fox can't control all of Diddy's recovery options at once. Diddy, if hit high, can reverse popgun cancel/reverse popgun shoot/monkey flip back to the stage and drift. If he's hit by say, D-smash, and is a little above stage level away from the stage, he can charge his barrels and arc over the ledge onto the stage. If you hit him when he's around the ledge and try to gimp him, ideally his barrels would have been gone before then, and he can instantly upB afterwards, if not charge lower and shoot high enough to where at worst he'll be edgeguarded. If he goes into the stage, he can't get gimped. If you went for the gimp and missed or he went over you, you wouldn't be able to punish his landing on stage. If you just waited, you could. It's riskier for Diddy at higher %s where he can get U-smashed, but if Fox waits onstage, Diddy can go to the ledge, and if he waits near the ledge, he can arc over it onto the stage; you won't realistically be able to cover multiple options, and the majority of the time should only at most edgeguard Diddy, but not gimp him (depending on if you guessed correctly).

It's a little better for Fox than vice-versa, because if Diddy messes up his recovery he gets gimped easier as opposed to Fox, but if neither character messes up, then neither character should really get gimped.

As for what percent you should kill at, percentage-wise then sure. However, landing a kill without being punished is difficult, as with proper stage control (Diddy having one banana in his hand and one in front of him or near him) will make it difficult for all of your approaches.
In some way you're maneuvering around the first banana, and Diddy gains a good OoS option from the second.

F-air and really any aerial can get punished if you're near Diddy and are trying to pick up a banana. If Diddy has his second banana, he can GT forward when you F-air+drift away, and if not, he can monkey flip kick. His best options are to just jump and Z-catch it (I'm not sure how hard it is to do for Fox, but it's kinda hard to consistently do with Diddy), or jump and instant throw it, or full hop and air-dodge up or something. With all of these options, you either have frames to react quickly after you pick up the banana, or you're spaced well enough so it's harder for Diddy to punish.

What exactly does Fox gain with one banana, other than standard diffusion?
How does Fox pressure Diddy into making it unsafe for him to use or pull bananas?

These aren't "lol rhetorical because he can't questions," these are serious questions because they were vague and I need more specifics on how to.

Also, with any character there's a sense of risk with using bananas. Some more than others, but there's always risk. What matters is how the risk compared with the reward, or if Diddy can play without bananas and fare well in the match-up.

Fox seems to be better than most as far as pressuring Diddy when he has bananas goes, but doesn't seem to be able to control them as well. Plus, Diddy is by no means bad or hopeless if he chooses not to use bananas for periods of time or at all in this match-up.

He by no means controls the match because there's risk in using bananas, though.

Zhamy · Sep 8, 2009

You can't arbitrarily end 10 frames of landing lag from whatever aerial you're doing or cancel it into a shine whenever you're about to get hit.

Er...in what situation would this come up, realistically?

AvaricePanda · Sep 9, 2009

D-air/N-air/maybe B-air on shield, shielded U-smash or D-smash, floating F-air on shield (won't make you trip, will still hit you)really anything. If you're using SHDLs, Diddy can attempt to throw it at your feet, and while it probably won't make you trip it still may hit you.

My original statement was that in general, when a banana is thrown at you, you're most likely in some sort of lag or action that doesn't let you avoid the banana (applies to all characters). I was saying it against whoever said reflector was a good tool against bananas thrown at you.

Fenrir VII · Sep 10, 2009

AvaricePanda said:
It seems like this entire post was what you originally said and ignored what player-1/ADHD/and I said about things.

I actually responded to all three of you in my other posts...

Fox can land gimps, it's feasible if he does or doesn't. However, Fox can't control all of Diddy's recovery options at once.

He can to the point of being virtually guaranteed at least some damage upon Diddy's recovery from fairly far out... Of course there is error involved, but Fox always has an option that will punish... and a couple of his options will punish much of what Diddy has here, too

Diddy, if hit high, can reverse popgun cancel/reverse popgun shoot/monkey flip back to the stage and drift.

Ok, but Diddy won't be hit high most of the time... Fsmash and Bair both will, and bair should connect, but I was mainly referring to dsmash to knock off the stage...

but yes, if Diddy can drift to the stage, he has options... It's still a dangerous position, since Fox punishes landing lag very well... but yes, he has options here.

If he's hit by say, D-smash, and is a little above stage level away from the stage, he can charge his barrels and arc over the ledge onto the stage.

going to split this section up

If you hit him when he's around the ledge and try to gimp him, ideally his barrels would have been gone before then, and he can instantly upB afterwards, if not charge lower and shoot high enough to where at worst he'll be edgeguarded.

If Fox lands the rising dair at this point, he will always be able to shine spike. so no, you don't get instant barrels in time or anything... I mean, in all honesty, if Fox hits the rising dair, then runs off the stage, delays a second, and nairs, Diddy dies... this is a terrible, terrible situation for Diddy.

If he goes into the stage, he can't get gimped. If you went for the gimp and missed or he went over you, you wouldn't be able to punish his landing on stage.

False. If you go for the rising Dair, and Diddy rockets over you into the stage, you have time to dash and usmash at the very least... and considering the case in which you are presenting this, where dsmash sends far enough for Diddy to resort to arcing barrels over the stage, usmash is a killing threat at that %, too... call it a gimp, edgeguard, or whatever... Fox can punish, and Diddy could die.

If you just waited, you could. It's riskier for Diddy at higher %s where he can get U-smashed, but if Fox waits onstage, Diddy can go to the ledge, and if he waits near the ledge, he can arc over it onto the stage; you won't realistically be able to cover multiple options, and the majority of the time should only at most edgeguard Diddy, but not gimp him (depending on if you guessed correctly).

At this point, Fox can stand near the edge, and either edgehog or dash usmash ON REACTION... of course he can cover both options here...

It's a little better for Fox than vice-versa, because if Diddy messes up his recovery he gets gimped easier as opposed to Fox, but if neither character messes up, then neither character should really get gimped.

Diddy is always in more danger in the scenario than Fox is... Fox has many more options here than Diddy does... and as such, it typically means that Diddy being off stage will cost him either a chunk of % or a stock

As for what percent you should kill at, percentage-wise then sure. However, landing a kill without being punished is difficult, as with proper stage control (Diddy having one banana in his hand and one in front of him or near him) will make it difficult for all of your approaches.

First of all, this scenario will not always be the case.
Secondly, Fox can pick up that banana in front of him very easily and safely.
Third, Fox can bair the bair of Diddy's shield, and retreat even before GT would work... and this would have to be predicted to punish, as Fox doesn't HAVE to bair here..
and Fourth, Diddy is certainly not unhittable through any normal play... and several different attacks leading to a kill move greatly increase Fox's safety in killing

This scenario becomes even less feasible in the presence of platforms, as Fox simply has way too many options, even just to pick up the non-held banana, for Diddy to punish all of them...

In all honestly, Fox can pick the banana up with a FH, either onto a platform, or to shine stall, or to illusion to another platform... or just drift back and double jump and etc...

I feel like Diddy players count this scenario as their version of "zone lol u die", and honestly, it's really not hard to just weave in and out of this easily...

In some way you're maneuvering around the first banana, and Diddy gains a good OoS option from the second.

Sure, if Fox blindly attacks your shield poorly, but this simply shouldn't be happening.

And if Fox even plays it smart enough to safely control the sole banana, then this scenario will not happen against until Diddy has to move to regain that banana... thus eliminating the situation.

This isn't a win-all scenario at all... and it's almost laughable that it's being presented as such... not necessarily by you, but by previous comments in the thread like "a banana in front stops a dash usmash"

F-air and really any aerial can get punished if you're near Diddy and are trying to pick up a banana. If Diddy has his second banana, he can GT forward when you F-air+drift away, and if not, he can monkey flip kick. His best options are to just jump and Z-catch it (I'm not sure how hard it is to do for Fox, but it's kinda hard to consistently do with Diddy), or jump and instant throw it, or full hop and air-dodge up or something. With all of these options, you either have frames to react quickly after you pick up the banana, or you're spaced well enough so it's harder for Diddy to punish.

Yeah, this was my point in the previous paragraphs... z-catch isn't hard at all for me at least... and that shouldn't come into play too much in a matchup discussion anyway.

SH Fair to pick it up isn't reliably punishable... and it's not Fox's only option... so it's not like Diddy just has to sit and shield and wait for it...

What exactly does Fox gain with one banana, other than standard diffusion?

Well, a main response to this would simply be to eliminate Diddy's supposedly impenetrable fortress... thus limiting Diddy's stage control to that of one banana...

Secondly, Fox's speed and otherwise good mobility and stage options with platforms and etc give him the options from a banana trip of landing a dair (situational) or smash from every banana trip... and already given that usmash kills below 100%... it's a bit scarier

Third, although Fox has no glide attack, his jump-cancel Item Toss allows hima good bit of sliding mobility from the banana...even just throwing it up...

And give Fox's already adaptable combos, a banana certainly doesn't hurt it.

How does Fox pressure Diddy into making it unsafe for him to use or pull bananas?

The very lag given to Diddy when he pulls a banana, or misses a banana toss allows Fox Fox to punish.. The banana placement from a pull also is behind Diddy, making it generally unsafe for Diddy to pull one while Fox is in front of him...

Now, Diddy shouldn't be pulling bananas when Fox is in his face, sure... but Fox is also VERY good at keeping pressure, and staying just out of attack range, but still making it unsafe to pull a banana... so in order to safely pull one, Diddy will either have to move away from Fox, or hit Fox away...
The first is naturally unfeasible, since Fox is faster.. and the second implies that Diddy will have to attack Fox without a banana at some point, which also implies that Diddy has to put himself at more risk than normal... into a situation which Fox is constantly trying to bait.

Also, with any character there's a sense of risk with using bananas. Some more than others, but there's always risk. What matters is how the risk compared with the reward, or if Diddy can play without bananas and fare well in the match-up.

Fox is the 3rd fastest character in the game, has a decent pressure game... has reliable 30%+ combos, and kills below 100%, even disregarding a huge gimping game in this matchup... That's more risk than many other characters can give.

Fox seems to be better than most as far as pressuring Diddy when he has bananas goes, but doesn't seem to be able to control them as well. Plus, Diddy is by no means bad or hopeless if he chooses not to use bananas for periods of time or at all in this match-up.

His shear speed and mobility allows him to control bananas pretty well... if just keeping them away from Diddy, he doesn't really have a hard time controlling them... even though he doesn't have a glide toss... And banana-safe usmashes (which work from shield) are incredible.

If Diddy does not have bananas, tell me how he beats Fox in any way..

He basically becomes a slower, weaker character than Fox... and this certainly doesn't give him any kind of advantage...

He by no means controls the match because there's risk in using bananas, though.

If Diddy risks early death for using bananas, and because of this, cannot safely pull bananas... yes, Fox does control the match.

Melomaniacal · Sep 10, 2009

I'm just curious about what match up experience you guys have in this, and how your results are (mainly because I don't like excessive theory-crafting).

I'm not trying to accuse anyone of anything, just curious.

AvaricePanda · Sep 11, 2009

Fenrir VII said:
I actually responded to all three of you in my other posts...

He can to the point of being virtually guaranteed at least some damage upon Diddy's recovery from fairly far out... Of course there is error involved, but Fox always has an option that will punish... and a couple of his options will punish much of what Diddy has here, too

And Diddy always has an option to get away. It's like Diddy vs. Fox with edgeguarding; each of their options while returning to the edge can individually be stopped, but overall it's a large guessing game, where the person recovering can usually choose how to recover safely by wherever the edgeguarder is placed.

Ok, but Diddy won't be hit high most of the time... Fsmash and Bair both will, and bair should connect, but I was mainly referring to dsmash to knock off the stage...

At the percent B-air hits Diddy notably off-stage, Fox could also kill Diddy with an U-smash, so it's not really low-percent gimp worthy. Same with D-smash, although it's more effective at mid percents.

but yes, if Diddy can drift to the stage, he has options... It's still a dangerous position, since Fox punishes landing lag very well... but yes, he has options here.

It's dangerous like with any other character. It's still a good option, because it beats out every other option that you have returning to the stage. Most characters against most others would rather drift on-stage then go to the ledge because of edge-guarding vs. possibly getting hit with one attack.

If Fox lands the rising dair at this point, he will always be able to shine spike. so no, you don't get instant barrels in time or anything... I mean, in all honesty, if Fox hits the rising dair, then runs off the stage, delays a second, and nairs, Diddy dies... this is a terrible, terrible situation for Diddy.

Uhh...

Fox's D-air isn't a spike. If/when Diddy's barrels have disappeared and you hit with rising D-air, he'll go like two centimeters down before he can use his barrels again; it's by no means an instant gimp. And if you hit his barrels and he's in free-fall a bit and he just waits, it's still difficult to get the gimp. You could try to jump down and shine spike, but Diddy would have time to react if he's low enough and barrel back up. You could try an aerial in this instance, but because of the time the aerial is out, you'd be put it in a bad position as well.

False. If you go for the rising Dair, and Diddy rockets over you into the stage, you have time to dash and usmash at the very least... and considering the case in which you are presenting this, where dsmash sends far enough for Diddy to resort to arcing barrels over the stage, usmash is a killing threat at that %, too... call it a gimp, edgeguard, or whatever... Fox can punish, and Diddy could die.

It's why I said it's much better at lower %s. And if what you're saying is true, then the "worth" of it isn't as large; you could gimp Diddy, but if you could kill him anyway then, while it's still a good situation, it's not a death at like 0-30% situation.

And still, this isn't exactly true. It depends when you miss the rising D-air. If you go really early, sure, you'll have time. If you miss late, or just miss, Diddy most probably has time to put up his shield (I can't know for sure unless you can actually test this or get a video or something, but because this isn't a specific situation, it's very hard to judge). Plus, if there's platforms, then Diddy's safer because of that.

At this point, Fox can stand near the edge, and either edgehog or dash usmash ON REACTION... of course he can cover both options here...

Neither is a guaranteed gimp. Edgeguard? Yes. Gimp? No. I thought that's what you were claiming originally, that Fox could gimp Diddy very well.

Diddy is always in more danger in the scenario than Fox is... Fox has many more options here than Diddy does... and as such, it typically means that Diddy being off stage will cost him either a chunk of % or a stock

Diddy can still edge-guard Fox well though. High or whatever angle illusion can be punished with a banana throw, illusion to the edge can be edge-guarded/banana thrown, his jumps from the ledge onto the stage can be countered with a banana on stage, one in Diddy's hand, and Diddy short or fullhopping near the edge and z-dropping his second banana, his Firefox can be D-air spiked (even though it should never realistically happen), etc. All of which can be done on reaction.

I agree that Fox has it better with edgeguarding if Diddy has to use his barrels. However, he can't get reliable or guaranteed gimps by any means. There's more risk for Diddy if he messes up, but they shouldn't happen.

First of all, this scenario will not always be the case.

But it will often be the case. At least, Diddy will try to make it the case as much as possible.

Secondly, Fox can pick up that banana in front of him very easily and safely.

Specifically with?

Third, Fox can bair the bair of Diddy's shield, and retreat even before GT would work... and this would have to be predicted to punish, as Fox doesn't HAVE to bair here..

I've tried to get an auto-cancelled B-air to hit Diddy's shield and still auto-cancel, and I haven't been able to do it. Each time the B-air had standard landing lag, which would be punishable by Diddy.

and Fourth, Diddy is certainly not unhittable through any normal play... and several different attacks leading to a kill move greatly increase Fox's safety in killing

But how often will those attacks hit?

This scenario becomes even less feasible in the presence of platforms, as Fox simply has way too many options, even just to pick up the non-held banana, for Diddy to punish all of them...

In all honestly, Fox can pick the banana up with a FH, either onto a platform, or to shine stall, or to illusion to another platform... or just drift back and double jump and etc...

There's plenty that Diddy can use to punish. Banana throw, monkey flip or monkey flip kick, and F-air all do well in many of these situations. Jump on a platform, and Diddy could GT the second banana under you. Illusion away, and he could monkey flip kick and punish. Shine stall? He can wait for you to hit the ground. Nothing's guaranteed, but it's an overall better zone for Diddy than it is Fox. The banana still is an obstacle, little or big, and you're either going around it or picking it up in some way, making your actions more predictable and punishable.

I feel like Diddy players count this scenario as their version of "zone lol u die", and honestly, it's really not hard to just weave in and out of this easily...

I'm not saying it's, "lol you can't hit Diddy," but you can't disregard good zoning. Still, could you be more specific as to what Fox can do to make it a better zone for him, or why Diddy can't punish some of his options?

Sure, if Fox blindly attacks your shield poorly, but this simply shouldn't be happening.

And if Fox even plays it smart enough to safely control the sole banana, then this scenario will not happen against until Diddy has to move to regain that banana... thus eliminating the situation.

This isn't a win-all scenario at all... and it's almost laughable that it's being presented as such... not necessarily by you, but by previous comments in the thread like "a banana in front stops a dash usmash"

I'm not presenting it as a win-all scenario by any means, but it is better zoning. In this instance, Diddy has a better defensive "shield" than Fox has an offensive "spear," not because all of his options are punishable or whatever, but because Diddy's banana is forcing you to do something, or at least eliminating an option. You're the one who performs the first action, and because of the placement of his bananas and the options you have, Diddy can generally punish, have a chance to punish, or at the very least be safe against most if not all of what you do.

tl;dr: A defensive Diddy is harder to kill. The whole, "it stops dash U-smash" thing works against worse Foxes, but more than anything it just gives Diddy better tools to react with. It also stops direct grabs, making his shield a bit safer, making it harder for aerials to connect and making it easier for Diddy to punish said aerials.

Yeah, this was my point in the previous paragraphs... z-catch isn't hard at all for me at least... and that shouldn't come into play too much in a matchup discussion anyway.

True. But for some characters (generally heavier or taller ones I think), it's a lot more frame-tight to jump and z-catch a grounded banana, so it would have been valid. I wasn't sure with Fox.

SH Fair to pick it up isn't reliably punishable... and it's not Fox's only option... so it's not like Diddy just has to sit and shield and wait for it...

If Diddy's anywhere nearby, it is reliably punishable; I'm not sure what makes you say otherwise. If the F-air doesn't connect (and it's something that Diddy can crawl, or sometimes stand under anyway), then you get punished, either with a glide tossed banana, an aerially thrown banana, or a monkey flip kick.

Your best options (jump and z-catch, jump and instant throw) are neutral; overall Diddy is never in a disadvantage that's more than very slight. The whole Diddy just sitting there with two bananas would be something Diddy would only do if he was at high percent and at risk of dying, or had the percent lead and tried to play really campy anyway.

Well, a main response to this would simply be to eliminate Diddy's supposedly impenetrable fortress... thus limiting Diddy's stage control to that of one banana...

Secondly, Fox's speed and otherwise good mobility and stage options with platforms and etc give him the options from a banana trip of landing a dair (situational) or smash from every banana trip... and already given that usmash kills below 100%... it's a bit scarier

This=/=good banana game, as aforementioned. Everyone has some combo or early kill from a banana trip, but it doesn't mean much if you can't secure the trip. Speed=/=good banana game. It's getting more towards that, and helps with Fox pressuring Diddy from his bananas, but being fast doesn't lead into trips more.

Third, although Fox has no glide attack, his jump-cancel Item Toss allows hima good bit of sliding mobility from the banana...even just throwing it up...

It doesn't allow for a good switch from two bananas, nor does it allow for an all-directional OoS attack.

And give Fox's already adaptable combos, a banana certainly doesn't hurt it.

True.

I'll wrap this all up later.

The very lag given to Diddy when he pulls a banana, or misses a banana toss allows Fox Fox to punish.. The banana placement from a pull also is behind Diddy, making it generally unsafe for Diddy to pull one while Fox is in front of him...

Diddy could just...you know...turn around and pull one.

Diddy has a bunch of different ways he can pull out bananas for mix-up to make everything less guaranteed, but the lag is still pretty punishable, I agree, and it's something that Fox can and should capitalize on whenever he gets the chance.

Now, Diddy shouldn't be pulling bananas when Fox is in his face, sure... but Fox is also VERY good at keeping pressure, and staying just out of attack range, but still making it unsafe to pull a banana... so in order to safely pull one, Diddy will either have to move away from Fox, or hit Fox away...
The first is naturally unfeasible, since Fox is faster.. and the second implies that Diddy will have to attack Fox without a banana at some point, which also implies that Diddy has to put himself at more risk than normal... into a situation which Fox is constantly trying to bait.

What's so wrong with Diddy using an attack without a banana? Why aren't his D-smash, D-tilt, U-tilt, F-air, B-air, U-air, Jab, Monkey Flip/flipkick, throws etc good attacks? They're all certainly pretty decent. D-tilt comes out in 4 frames, has pretty good range, and leads into a grab or maybe F-smash or D-smash, which would create distance from Diddy and Fox and allow him to pluck a banana. Diddy's F-air's range beats the range of Fox's attacks and I think only really trades with Fox's F-air. His grabs and throws are great, his D-smash comes out in frame 7-8 I believe and is pretty quick, etc. He has a plethora of good attacks, all enhanced by bananas, but still good without them.

Diddy can create distance between himself and Fox to make plucking bananas safer. Fox can pressure Diddy when he doesn't have bananas better than most, and punish his plucking of them better than most. It's not a large win for either character really.

Fox is the 3rd fastest character in the game, has a decent pressure game... has reliable 30%+ combos, and kills below 100%, even disregarding a huge gimping game in this matchup... That's more risk than many other characters can give.

Disregarding the huge gimping game because I haven't found that to be true at all, still, it doesn't all add up to excessive risk for Diddy. Fox is fast? Sure, but that doesn't make his attacks have more range, be less punishable, or be more adaptable. It lets him get inside during Diddy's lag and make Diddy need more space for some of his stuff to be safer.

But eh, overall what I'm trying to say is that no character really makes Diddy using bananas worse than Diddy not using bananas, or Diddy using bananas have some huge risk to it. The reward for Diddy using bananas always outweighs the risk in every match-up I've played excluding Sonic, and I still use bananas against him, just a lot less (but that's because I play the match-up a LOT campier and different than most other Diddys, I still think overall the reward is worth it). There's always risk, but it's never huge.

Diddy's largest worry against Fox is IMO getting bananas and spacing himself initially. When Fox grabs bananas, I don't worry, as he's limited to a few options; throwing the banana, using lasers, or if he's in the air, Z-dropping and using an aerial. Diddy, with or without a second banana, can avoid all of these, as all of these are generally punishable on reaction anyway (except for the aerials, but you can avoid that by staying away from him when he's in the air.)

His shear speed and mobility allows him to control bananas pretty well... if just keeping them away from Diddy, he doesn't really have a hard time controlling them... even though he doesn't have a glide toss... And banana-safe usmashes (which work from shield) are incredible.

Sheer speed and mobility don't allow you to control bananas well. Keeping them away from Diddy, probably, but using them well to your own advantage? Not much. Same with not having a glide-toss; it's not just about being able to throw an item and slide, it's being able to have a perfect length OoS option that lets you maneuver easily between not having a banana and having a banana.

Diddy, having his glide-toss and monkey flip and monkey flip kick all still open when he has a banana in his hand, as well as popgun momentum changes, allow him to be a lot more versatile than others. That's not exactly why his banana game is better by any means, but I'm getting lazy atm.

If Diddy does not have bananas, tell me how he beats Fox in any way..

He basically becomes a slower, weaker character than Fox... and this certainly doesn't give him any kind of advantage...

Many characters are slower than Fox, or weaker (I'm not sure if you mean attack damage or kill power or what) than Fox, but this doesn't mean that Fox obliterates them by any means. Diddy can still fight Fox without bananas. How well? I'm not sure, but he can reasonably fight him. He has good attacks, namely his D-tilt, U-tilt and U-smash in this match-up, his grabs and throws, his monkey flip, his D-smash as a quick kill move, etc.

If Diddy risks early death for using bananas, and because of this, cannot safely pull bananas... yes, Fox does control the match.

Diddy risks early death for using bananas against all characters except like Sonic and Samus. It doesn't mean all characters control the match against him. Sure, Diddy risks getting tripped to U-smashed if Fox gets a banana, but the likelyhood of Fox getting a banana in the first place, and then being able to actually trip Diddy to an U-smash is so slim that the reward for using bananas is much greater. Ultimately, no matter what, Diddy controls the banana aspect of any match, because he decides when they come out or not.

My view on this match-up is still the same from the other export. IMO, Diddy has a clear advantage, but it's small. Probably around the 55-45 area. I don't like using numbers, but meh.

Curaga · Sep 13, 2009

Okay, so: Diddy Players.

What can I do as Fox, to effectively annoy/keep up with you? I've been trying to keep up with the walls of text, but what I'm looking for is information on the match-up more so than the ratio. Short hopped aerials assist with banana play, retreating b-airs, laser play, shield grabbing, and edge guarding..

So yeah, in your opinions, what can Fox do to keep up with your momentum, and what do you see yourself doing to come out on top? Just a brief summary and synopsis.

I'm absolute garbage in this match-up, and any information would help both sides.

Stagewise:
We're..
Striking Smashville and Final Destination..
Banning.. Smashville?
Camping?

AvaricePanda · Sep 13, 2009

1. Learn the habits that Diddy uses to pluck bananas. A lot of Diddys, including some pretty good ones, pull bananas in general the same way. Many start a match with a full-hop double pluck, or turn around normal pluck, or whatever. The majority of the time, Diddy will pluck bananas when you're farther from him to make it more safe, but if not learn how they do it. Either way, it's pretty punishable. I rarely get punished when I pluck bananas, although I blame that on lack of Diddy knowledge, because whenever I play against a Diddy in dittos I'm usually able to charge during the beginning and z-catch the bananas they pluck.

2. If you're too far away when they're plucking bananas, just shoot lasers. Same if they're just hanging around. Don't TRY to camp, but just laser whenever they're far away. When they get closer, you probably want to try to approach and get inside, or maybe retreat. At mid-range it's difficult to face Diddy, as they can pressure you into performing actions where you can't do anything towards them.

3. When you get a banana, "diffuse" it. By diffusion, I mean don't throw it off the stage or necessarily try to get banana combos; camp with it so they don't have that banana to use for a while. Specifically, if you get a banana, running away and lasering until they approach seems to work quite a bit. Also play around with throwing it in the air, or having it in your hands in the air and z-dropping and doing an aerial with it. Do more advanced things than just throwing it offstage or trying to throw it back to Diddy; most likely if you try that, he just catches it back eventually (unless you throw when he's in some form of lag).

4. Try not to pick up bananas near Diddy with dash attack or F-air. Both are punishable. Instead, try to jump and z-catch, jump and instant throw, or airdodge to catch the banana. The former two are very hard to punish as they're options largely unexplored by most people. The latter is punishable still, but if you full hop with it, Diddy most likely won't be able to immediately punish you (you still may be at risk on landing).

5. Unless it's auto-cancelled B-air (and this is a maybe, as I'm not sure that an AC B-air can hit Diddy's shield and still AC) or a grab, don't hit Diddy's shield if he has a banana. Thrown banana forward comes out in frame 3, and a GT to behind him only takes a few more frames. You can still probably do D-air, F-air, and N-air cross-ups on his shield, but his OoS U-smash isn't a bad idea either, and U-smash is a pretty good attack for him in this match-up.

My basic summary is that Fox can deal with quite a bit of the aspects of Diddy's game, but with proper banana zoning, Diddy can effectively limit Fox's options in most situations, making him easier to predict/punish. Diddy's general banana combos are also more effective on Fox, such as his "slam-dunk" spike (dash attack to D-air), U-tilt strings, D-tilt strings, U-smashes, etc. I'd put it at a slight to kinda moderate disadvantage for Fox (it's not that simple, but eh).

Stagewise, I'd strike Yoshi's and maaybe FD. Yoshi's just isn't a good Fox stage, and FD is Diddy's signature good stage, but other than Yoshi's it's mainly preference. Lylat, FD, SV, and BF are good and bad for both characters.

Stagewise, ban...I dunno lol. Diddy would probably ban Brinstar, maybe? (not sure how good Fox is on Brinstar, I never played on it as Fox and never played any Fox's on Brinstar). There's no really hard CPs either way it doesn't seem like. Your CP is probably more for yourself, as Diddy does well on all of the stages you do well on.

Curaga · Sep 14, 2009

Thanks a lot for summarizing all of that for me, its going to really help me out.

I would try to input my own opinion in the matter, but I get destroyed by Diddy Kong when using ANY character, so I know its nothing Fox related, and just a complete Curaga problem. Ha ha

Also, there was a link posted earlier in this thread of Yui, JP Fox player.. JP Foxes will teach us a lot of amazing things about match ups, so find that link and watch him.

Fenrir VII · Sep 14, 2009

I kinda hate quote walls, so I'll just type the responses into sections, similar to the MK discussion...

Recovery

My main point all along is that Fox handily wins the recovery vs. edgeguarding game here. He simply has more varying option than Diddy when it comes to recovering, as well as better a better edgeguarding knockback angle from dsmash than anything Diddy has.

Almost every time Diddy gets off stage, Fox should be able to get some damage, or a possible gimp.

If Diddy has to barrel rocket, Fox should ALWAYS land a punisher on it... and he has several different ones for the different scenarios.

Diddy's main recovery will be to momentum cancel, Monkey flip, leaving a double jump and Barrel to return to stage.Diddy can try an aerial to combat Fox during his double jump, but this is easier to bait, since the only applicable aerial (Fair) has a bit of end lag... also, Fox's Fair and Bair can beat Diddy's, so this isn't a surefire option for the monkey.

If Diddy recovers with Barrels from a bit away from the stage (which is applicable, since Diddy's second jump isn't totally safe), a rising Dair off stage (run off the stage, second jump back onto the stage, just above it while performing a dair) will literally cover every option. Since you land on stage, you can easily edgehog (in case you were early) or dash usmash Diddy's landing lag (in the case that he arcs over the stage), no matter what he does...

And if the Dair hits, the amount of stun it puts on Diddy, and the downwards knockback, will put Diddy under the edge, and give Fox a free edgehog... at this point, with Diddy below him, a ledgedrop dair shine will against beat every timing of the barrels... (Unless Diddy immediately barrels, in which case, Fox just keeps holding the ledge, and Diddy dies) This has been tested in great detail and has played out in quite a few matches I have played and seen...

On the other hand, when Fox is recovering, he will always be recovering from very high (Diddy doesn't really have a low-angled knockback move)... At this point, a long-canceled illusion and an illusion to the edge cannot both be covered at the same time given Fox's fall speed, and the long-canceled illusion's distance. And this is completely disregarding any option of firefox angled down to the ledge or shine stall, or anything else... Those two option cannot be covered by one strategy, so Diddy has to choose an option.

Banana game

I do not believe this is the best stance for Diddy in this match, but it has been brought up numerous times, so the topic at hand is Fox against a Diddy holding a banana, while a banana is in front of him.

Fox always has a safe option to pick up the banana... if only FH or SH z-catch... not to even mention FH Fair backwards and etc... This eliminates this positioning..

You say it leaves a neutral position... No, it doesn't. it eliminates the situation that you have been stating as Diddy's best position against Fox, and how he will deal with almost every scenario... this inherently makes it an obvious Fox advantage, because he just simply eliminated your good position... not even mentioning that he now has control of a banana...

Now, Fox's banana game really isn't too important... because if he eliminates Diddy's banana, he eliminates all of his OoS options in a single go... and Fox can apply his pressure game incredibly easily... And since Diddy is fairly easy to combo due to lack of "get out" moves... and since Diddy is generally fairly weak when above his opponent, where many of Fox's combos place him (and also since Fox is amazing while punishing landing lag)..this will always be a good position for Fox...

I don't generally consider banana OoS to be a good option for many characters, since the banana often takes a few frames in flight, so it's usually shieldable.. I've gotten some things to work with Fox, but I cannot say how reliable the initial banana throw connecting is...

From OoS, though, if the banana throw hits the opponent, Fox always gets an usmash at least... I've gotten a dair, too, but I really don't know how reliable that would be...

But banana toss usmash is quite scary, as it is... as it basically gives an incredibly safe option to land one of the best killers in the game...

But again, Fox doesn't really rely on a better banana game than Diddy or anything... he does decently, but the main reason to control bananas (which is very easy to do, given Fox's incredible mobility) is to keep them out of Diddy's control, since Fox is at an advantage there...

Killing

By only using number, it's easy to see that Fox has at least a 30% advantage in killing in the match...

You keep saying things like Fox doesn't have a safe kill move... but I am really not sure how you can say that... Dair is an incredible punishment tool... and as such, if Fox calls one roll, dodge, jump, recovery, heck, even GT among other things.. he kills Diddy... This alone leads to kills, if absolutely nothing else does...

Otherwise, Bair is safe on shield (yeah, it AC's... not sure why you can't get it to...) Nair is safe on a shield if Diddy has no banana... Dair is safe on shield from behind if Diddy has no banana, etc... It's really not hard to land attacks that COMBO into a low % kill move in this match... or Bair, a little bit later.

And that's not even to mention a OoS usmash, which is applicable from sliding shield against quite a bit of Diddy's stuff... I've seen it go through Fair (not sure about spacing here, to be honest) Monkey flip kick, a shielded forward GT, fsmash, dsmash, etc.. It's of course not always an option, since you can't make Diddy attack your shield, but it is still a threat in any normal match.

Overall match

You cannot say that Diddy will just create space between himself and Fox to pull a banana... Fox is a much faster character...

At the same time, if Diddy turns around to pull bananas, that doesn't make it any safer... That's a free usmash, if absolutely nothing else...

Diddy has a decent moveset, but it is mainly mediocre without a good banana game, and if Fox can stop the banana game from being as effective (which his speed alone allows him to), then he strips Diddy of a large part of what makes him such a good character.

I mean, of course Diddy has other moves here, that go somewhat unnoticed because of how good the bananas are, but without bananas, Fox easily wins a pressure game, as he has fast unpunishable attacks on shield, and a deent grab game... which mainly puts Diddy in the air, which is nearly always an advantageous position for Fox against the characters in this game.

My main points are that Fox can separate Diddy from his bananas, make it much riskier for Diddy to pull bananas, and out-pressure him when he doesn't have bananas...

Side points are that Fox is just a better killer overall, both on stage and off...especially if Diddy doesn't have free reign with bananas to make all his kill moves safer.

TKD · Sep 14, 2009

We shouldn't care which Fox or Diddy player you play against. You can't say that you've played this or that person and consider it your information source if they're not even good (or at least not at your level).

Some of the things I read.

BANANA THINGS:
In Fox's case, he can react with a fair to catch bananas as they're thrown to him from far away enough. They're blockable as well.
- What if they don't throw them?
Fox can camp too. Blasters.
- Don't blasters leave Fox open to a banana throw?
Not from far away enough.

Two bananas in play: This is what people meant about SH fairing to pick bananas up being punishable. If Fox SH fairs to grab one banana peel, Diddy Kong can throw the one he's holding at Fox. But Fox can full hop a buffered Fair to do this too. He's also good at regaining ground, so it's not a very big deal to reach the air this way. After this, the Fox player can do whatever.

Edgeguard: What Fenrir says. Maybe.

Oh @ what ADHD says: Fox CAN actually camp because of his speed. His short-hop and his overall blastering is much quicker too.

This match-up is 5/5. Both characters are pretty good after all.

Also, there was a link posted earlier in this thread of Yui, JP Fox player.. JP Foxes will teach us a lot of amazing things about match ups, so find that link and watch him.

The match that was posted was a year ago, though. I hear Yui's very good now...but a year ago, most players weren't as good as they are right now.

EDIT: I shouldn't argue over 20 points. I'll call it either 5/5 or 4/6. I doubt the 4/6, but it isn't a drastic number.
EDIT': If you dair Diddy Kong's >B, he can airjump and >B YOU lol

AvaricePanda · Sep 14, 2009

Fenrir VII said:
On the other hand, when Fox is recovering, he will always be recovering from very high (Diddy doesn't really have a low-angled knockback move)... At this point, a long-canceled illusion and an illusion to the edge cannot both be covered at the same time given Fox's fall speed, and the long-canceled illusion's distance. And this is completely disregarding any option of firefox angled down to the ledge or shine stall, or anything else... Those two option cannot be covered by one strategy, so Diddy has to choose an option.

D-smash, our main kill move, hits decently low. F-air hits medium, not really high, and last hit of F-smash is the same thing. You'll only be hit "really high" if you're hit by both hits of F-smash or you have amazing DI from one hit of it.

Diddy should have at least one banana in this situation. If he has none, he'd have time to pluck one. Most of the time when you're off-stage, he should have two, but at the least he'd have one.

If Fox is hit above and he Firefoxes over the stage, then Diddy can wait until he lands. If there's a platform on the stage, it's much harder to punish, but without a platform or a low platform (like BF's, Diddy can U-tilt through it), he can get punished by Diddy simply waiting and U-smashing, D-smashing, GT banana, really anything to punish.

If Diddy waits at this same position and you're closer to the stage and you try to illusion a bit over him, Diddy can still most likely punish from a glide-toss. I'll have to re-measure it, but I was pretty sure that a glide-toss from the edge on SV will throw the banana over halfway from the stage, which is at least the distance illusion gives (if Fox is slightly behind when he performs it).

Same thing if you're trying to illusion through him, but Diddy just shields.

If you shine-stall, Diddy just waits. There's no point in trying to react, as the 21 frames of illusion start-up or the 40 frames of Firefox start-up give him more than enough time to react and punish. Shine-stalling would throw off a character trying to chase you off-stage, but Diddy isn't.

If you're below the stage, which you shouldn't be, well yeah, you know how this goes. You get edge-guarded or spiked, or banana z-dropped or d-thrown in this case.

If you try to illusion to the ledge, Diddy should be able to grab the ledge before you can get to it.

If you try a high Firefox, Diddy can just time a banana throw, or wait by the ledge and F-air (I'm pretty sure F-air beats firefox but I've never really encountered the situation, I know for sure banana throw does).

Rising F-air is kind of like shine-stall yet kind of not. If you aren't F-airing closer to the stage, Diddy can just wait and do whatever, but if you're F-airing over or across onto the stage, then you have a safer recovery. Diddy CAN still punish, but aerials and air-dodges and such would be viable.

And this is all assuming that Diddy is at the same spot; with one banana and on the stage, near the edge. He doesn't have to move much at all to switch punishment options, and when he does, he has time to move. He's slightly more in-stage when you're above, and closer to the ledge if you're across or below. Each of your individual recoveries can be countered with Diddy at the same situation in the same spot (21 frames is plenty time to react.)

Fox always has a safe option to pick up the banana... if only FH or SH z-catch... not to even mention FH Fair backwards and etc... This eliminates this positioning..

You say it leaves a neutral position... No, it doesn't. it eliminates the situation that you have been stating as Diddy's best position against Fox, and how he will deal with almost every scenario... this inherently makes it an obvious Fox advantage, because he just simply eliminated your good position... not even mentioning that he now has control of a banana...

He eliminated a better position for Diddy, but it's still a good position for Diddy. Diddy with a banana vs. Fox with a banana is pretty much neutral. And Diddy would have a second banana in his hand, otherwise he wouldn't have just one lying out in front of him. It's overall neutral; you're just removing Diddy from a position that was more in his favor.

Now, Fox's banana game really isn't too important... because if he eliminates Diddy's banana, he eliminates all of his OoS options in a single go

Diddy still has a second banana in his hand.

And Diddy's OoS U-smash comes out on frame 5-7, faster than your OoS U-smash which comes out on frame 8. Even without a banana, he has grabs in front of him and OoS U-smash which covers behind him, so he still has good OoS options.

... and Fox can apply his pressure game incredibly easily...

Specifically?

And since Diddy is fairly easy to combo due to lack of "get out" moves

I kind of and kind of don't understand what you mean. What specific combos do you mean that it's easier for you to combo Diddy because of his lack of moves in the situation?

... and since Diddy is generally fairly weak when above his opponent,

Unless he has a banana, which he should; you'll rarely be in control of both or be able to control both. He's still punishable (as bananas initially only go in cardinal directions) but not AS punishable.

where many of Fox's combos place him (and also since Fox is amazing while punishing landing lag)..this will always be a good position for Fox...

True.

I don't generally consider banana OoS to be a good option for many characters, since the banana often takes a few frames in flight, so it's usually shieldable.. I've gotten some things to work with Fox, but I cannot say how reliable the initial banana throw connecting is...

Still, frame 5-6 for an all around OoS option is a good option.

But again, Fox doesn't really rely on a better banana game than Diddy or anything... he does decently, but the main reason to control bananas (which is very easy to do, given Fox's incredible mobility) is to keep them out of Diddy's control, since Fox is at an advantage there...

At an advantage at keeping them away from Diddy? No. He's one of the better characters who can punish Diddy's initial plucking of bananas because of ground speed and moves like dash attack and rising F-air that usually cover the range Diddy plucks bananas from. However, other things like actually keeping bananas under control, Fox is not at an advantage in.

Killing

By only using number, it's easy to see that Fox has at least a 30% advantage in killing in the match...

You keep saying things like Fox doesn't have a safe kill move... but I am really not sure how you can say that... Dair is an incredible punishment tool... and as such, if Fox calls one roll, dodge, jump, recovery, heck, even GT among other things.. he kills Diddy... This alone leads to kills, if absolutely nothing else does...

I don't ever recall saying that Fox doesn't have a safe kill move. A kill move that comes out on frame 8 is pretty decent as an OoS attack, as it can punish laggy things on shield and such. I was saying that it's hard for Fox to get a kill with Diddy in that ideal defensive position. If Diddy's more offensive, sure, but when he's more campy with bananas around him, it's harder to get an immediate kill. You can still strip him of the banana or outguess him and such like that, but when Diddy's in that "ideal" position (which as you said probably isn't the best, but is a good ideal defensive decision) you can't do a direct U-smash, or grab, or D-air (if you jump, Diddy can just shield); you have to take more steps to get the kill.

Otherwise, Bair is safe on shield (yeah, it AC's... not sure why you can't get it to...) Nair is safe on a shield if Diddy has no banana... Dair is safe on shield from behind if Diddy has no banana, etc... It's really not hard to land attacks that COMBO into a low % kill move in this match... or Bair, a little bit later.

OoS U-smash; even if Diddy has no banana, those aren't safe on shield.

And I can only get B-air to AC if you do it like right after a SH, which at that height wouldn't hit Diddy's shield. By the time it actually hits his shield, it has the regular 15 frames of landing lag.

Again, I'm not sure. If at any way you can show me how to AC the B-air then sure, but I'm not sure.

And that's not even to mention a OoS usmash, which is applicable from sliding shield against quite a bit of Diddy's stuff... I've seen it go through Fair (not sure about spacing here, to be honest) Monkey flip kick, a shielded forward GT, fsmash, dsmash, etc.. It's of course not always an option, since you can't make Diddy attack your shield, but it is still a threat in any normal match.

It depends if F-air landed in it's lag for Diddy. It's not a good option for Diddy to ever land with a F-air honestly, they should always do it from a SH so that he lands normally , but yeah if he lands in F-air you can dash U-smash I think.

MFK depends on when it hits. If it's lag cancelled (which you can do if you buffer the kick from a standing position or SH, or just any MFK from a FH) or you hit towards the end of the kick, Diddy should be able to shield or air-dodge before the U-smash connects (especially if Diddy crosses up Fox's shield). If not, then U-smash should connect.

Shielded forward GT, again, it's a spacing thing.

F-smash, yes, but Diddy shouldn't do a random standing F-smash often tbh.

D-smash should make your shield slide far back enough.

But yeah, if Diddy messes up then it's a good OoS option to kill him, I agree.

Overall match

You cannot say that Diddy will just create space between himself and Fox to pull a banana... Fox is a much faster character...

What if Diddy just hits Fox, which he should? Diddy's grabs and throws are really good, his D-tilt is quick and at max range pretty safe on shield, his retreating F-air isn't completely safe but it can hit a shield and be somewhat safe and if it hits then it has good knockback. OoS U-smash is a good option if Fox misspaces or messes up or attacks your shield with the wrong things, etc. Diddy could also anticipate something like a rising F-air and airdodge behind it and pluck a banana. There's a lot of instances where Diddy can create space; it's not as if Diddy and Fox are going in a linear dash race.

At the same time, if Diddy turns around to pull bananas, that doesn't make it any safer... That's a free usmash, if absolutely nothing else...

At the beginning of a match, like no way that Diddy pulls bananas is safe unless it's like FD or something, but even then he can get lasers. I said that Diddy has a bunch of different tricks and ways to pluck bananas, but NONE of them are safe. They're all punishable by Fox because of his dash speed. But this is usually just the initial pluck; afterwards, Diddy has options to pluck bananas, including when you're offstage, or after you get hit or thrown, etc.

Diddy has a decent moveset, but it is mainly mediocre without a good banana game, and if Fox can stop the banana game from being as effective (which his speed alone allows him to), then he strips Diddy of a large part of what makes him such a good character.

His speed alone doesn't allow him to stop Diddy's good banana game. It allows him to punish initial plucks and pick up misspaced throws. That is all that speed alone Fox is able to do to Diddy's banana game. Speed doesn't make a good actual banana game, it just helps with a few individual things. There's nothing stopping Diddy from getting his bananas back from Fox, or keeping his bananas from him when he's in good control of them.

I mean, of course Diddy has other moves here, that go somewhat unnoticed because of how good the bananas are, but without bananas, Fox easily wins a pressure game, as he has fast unpunishable attacks on shield, and a deent grab game... which mainly puts Diddy in the air, which is nearly always an advantageous position for Fox against the characters in this game.

He doesn't have unpunishable attacks on shield. Well, he has some, like retreating N-air when Diddy doesn't have a banana behind him or something, but a lot isn't. Diddy also has a decent grab game, which puts space between Fox and Diddy, which allows Diddy to pluck a banana.

My main points are that Fox can separate Diddy from his bananas, make it much riskier for Diddy to pull bananas, and out-pressure him when he doesn't have bananas...

Fox can't often seperate Diddy from his bananas (specifically I can't think of options other than Diddy messing up or that one situation where Fox can pick them up from Diddy being defensive, but there isn't much stopping Diddy from just getting them back or predicting Fox's options with bananas unless you can be specific as to why.

Fox makes it risky for Diddy to pull bananas at the beginning of the game, and because of his speed, there needs to be more distance between them for him to pluck (things like being FH above him don't work as well because of rising F-air), but Diddy can still pluck bananas by creating distance, and as long as he has one banana he can more easily create safe situations to pluck a second.

The last one...out-pressure him into doing what? Making mistakes? You weren't so clear here.

Side points are that Fox is just a better killer overall, both on stage and off...

True.

The other point that I accidentally erased, he never has free reign with bananas, but again, Diddy's banana game is still solid with Fox present when he actually has bananas. It's just initial pulls that are more easily punishable for you.

Basically everything TKD said as well. With the whole camping thing though; I don't think Fox can actually camp Diddy, like keep himself at long range with Diddy having trouble to approach and being able to retreat away and continue camping. Fox can fire lasers, but it doesn't stop Diddy from approaching, nor does it let Fox continue camping once Diddy's approached. He can however fire lasers until Diddy approaches.

Fenrir VII · Sep 14, 2009

Couple points to what you just said... don't have time for a full-fledged reply, but I'll say this and respond more later tonight or sometime tomorrow

Fox's Nair and Bair on shield both outrange any OoS option you have except GT... I'm not too sure about GT's timing, so I can't say for sure whether they beat that or not... I'm assuming they don't... but Nair outranges grab and usmash, as well...

Tell me what Diddy could do if Fox simply threw one or both of Diddy's bananas behind him, and simply zoned Diddy out of getting to them?

I am saying Japanese style zoning with Bair > Utilt, Fairs sometimes, and grabs?

Anyway, more later...

AvaricePanda · Sep 14, 2009

Threw one of Diddy's bananas behind him is what I meant by standard diffusion. You're "diffusing" the banana out of Diddy's play and yours, and making him deal with only having one or none.

In all honesty, you should never get both of his bananas, but if you did then yes, that's what you'd do (same with one). Laser until he approaches (if he does) and do what you said is probably your best bet, as Diddy pretty much has to predict something to get through you (although if he still has one banana it's a bit easier for him).

I forgot about the range aspect of N-air and B-air. If you land with either then I'm not sure if the banana will connect if you're behind Diddy's shield (in front yes because just base throwing it OoS is quickest and comes out on frame 3, but behind you may be able to shield or shine before the banana connects.

Fenrir VII · Sep 15, 2009

Going to try to chunk quote this, rather than having 20 quote tags...

AvaricePanda said:
D-smash, our main kill move, hits decently low. F-air hits medium, not really high, and last hit of F-smash is the same thing. You'll only be hit "really high" if you're hit by both hits of F-smash or you have amazing DI from one hit of it.

Diddy should have at least one banana in this situation. If he has none, he'd have time to pluck one. Most of the time when you're off-stage, he should have two, but at the least he'd have one.

If Fox is hit above and he Firefoxes over the stage, then Diddy can wait until he lands. If there's a platform on the stage, it's much harder to punish, but without a platform or a low platform (like BF's, Diddy can U-tilt through it), he can get punished by Diddy simply waiting and U-smashing, D-smashing, GT banana, really anything to punish.

If Diddy waits at this same position and you're closer to the stage and you try to illusion a bit over him, Diddy can still most likely punish from a glide-toss. I'll have to re-measure it, but I was pretty sure that a glide-toss from the edge on SV will throw the banana over halfway from the stage, which is at least the distance illusion gives (if Fox is slightly behind when he performs it).

Same thing if you're trying to illusion through him, but Diddy just shields.

If you shine-stall, Diddy just waits. There's no point in trying to react, as the 21 frames of illusion start-up or the 40 frames of Firefox start-up give him more than enough time to react and punish. Shine-stalling would throw off a character trying to chase you off-stage, but Diddy isn't.

If you're below the stage, which you shouldn't be, well yeah, you know how this goes. You get edge-guarded or spiked, or banana z-dropped or d-thrown in this case.

If you try to illusion to the ledge, Diddy should be able to grab the ledge before you can get to it.

If you try a high Firefox, Diddy can just time a banana throw, or wait by the ledge and F-air (I'm pretty sure F-air beats firefox but I've never really encountered the situation, I know for sure banana throw does).

Rising F-air is kind of like shine-stall yet kind of not. If you aren't F-airing closer to the stage, Diddy can just wait and do whatever, but if you're F-airing over or across onto the stage, then you have a safer recovery. Diddy CAN still punish, but aerials and air-dodges and such would be viable.

And this is all assuming that Diddy is at the same spot; with one banana and on the stage, near the edge. He doesn't have to move much at all to switch punishment options, and when he does, he has time to move. He's slightly more in-stage when you're above, and closer to the ledge if you're across or below. Each of your individual recoveries can be countered with Diddy at the same situation in the same spot (21 frames is plenty time to react.)

Let me start by saying that with proper DI, none of Diddy's killing moves should send at an angle lower than 45 degrees... allowing Fox to recover high with rising Fair

My point has never been that Diddy cannot cover all the options... my main point is that Diddy cannot cover them all at the same time.

For one edgeguarding instance.. Fox is just above SH height about 45 degrees off the stage (This is resonable for a mid-high % recovery with rising Fair from any of Diddy's moves). Now Diddy does not have the option of covering that amount of ground (and jumping out to edgeguard in the time it takes for Illusion to start, assuming he's a couple steps from the ledge. If he already jumped out to edgeguard at this time, then Fox FFs and illusions the edge for free... Now assuming Diddy stays on the stage, I'll give you two scenarios here..

First, Fox Illusions from this height... He has two options.

He can cancel the illusion long, which, with the momentum and sliding, puts Fox past the center of FD from this placement.
He can cancel the illusion short, which grabs the ledge.

I agree that Illusion has a bit of startup, but after that, Fox still has different lengths that he can go... and I guarantee that you cannot punish either simply on reaction, but must predict an option...

Second scenario, Fox starts a FireFox here.

Again, he can go to near the center of FD, or he can go to the ledge.

Diddy's SH Fair beats out firefox, but if Fox goes to the ledge, it will attack over the firefox, rather than hitting it.

Now FireFox is generally slower than illusion, so it's not as handy as a switch up here... but again, Diddy cannot quite reach it before Fox starts moving, and his trying will give Fox the free ledge..

In each of these scenarios (illusion moreso than firefox), Fox's startup has a lot of lag, but the actual move does not... Neither has quite enough startup for Diddy to jump out to punish on reaction... and again, if Diddy jumps in prediction, then Fox FFs and goes right above the ledge onto the stage, or straight to the edge, depending on placement...

Diddy cannot be both on the ledge, and GTing in the center of the stage at the same time, cannot punish one on reaction (especially from illusion speed), and therefore must guess which direction Fox will go.

Both of these scenarios are greatly amplified when on a non-FD stage, since platforms greatly increase Fox's options when recovering high.

Diddy still has a second banana in his hand.

And Diddy's OoS U-smash comes out on frame 5-7, faster than your OoS U-smash which comes out on frame 8. Even without a banana, he has grabs in front of him and OoS U-smash which covers behind him, so he still has good OoS options.

Still, frame 5-6 for an all around OoS option is a good option.

Specifically?

OoS U-smash; even if Diddy has no banana, those aren't safe on shield.

And I can only get B-air to AC if you do it like right after a SH, which at that height wouldn't hit Diddy's shield. By the time it actually hits his shield, it has the regular 15 frames of landing lag.

Again, I'm not sure. If at any way you can show me how to AC the B-air then sure, but I'm not sure.

I forgot about the range aspect of N-air and B-air. If you land with either then I'm not sure if the banana will connect if you're behind Diddy's shield (in front yes because just base throwing it OoS is quickest and comes out on frame 3, but behind you may be able to shield or shine before the banana connects.

Yeah, I mainly touched on this before... tbh, I really don't know how fast a backwards GT is... in front of shield, a banana throw would probably work, but again, judging banana's flight frames Vs a perfectly spaced Nair's landing frames is too much for me here... I'm assuming the banana toss would work pretty well, and I've been hit by it, but I could also argue that my spacing wasn't perfect, etc... so *shrug not sure here.

But again, Nair and Bair both outrange grabs and the usmash... so if Diddy has no banana, I don't really see any safe OoS move... if he has a banana, it's arguable that I don't see a safe OoS move for Fox behind Diddy (which can happen pretty quick with Fox's speed and fallspeed.)

oh, and btw, I did some more testing about the AC'ed bair, since you had trouble with it... just to make sure... and I did get it to work. the timing is quite tight on it (tighter than I previously thought), but perfectly AC'ed Bair does actually hit Diddy, with no shield (don't have anybody to test with, so I was only using unshielded Diddy under the assumption that shielding actually slightly increases the possible hitbox for Bair).. I don't really have any way to record it (hence I only have vids of my Fox from like a year ago), so I'd guess you'll have to take my word for it, but I did get it to land a handful of times with Diddy standing on FD.

I kind of and kind of don't understand what you mean. What specific combos do you mean that it's easier for you to combo Diddy because of his lack of moves in the situation?

Unless he has a banana, which he should; you'll rarely be in control of both or be able to control both. He's still punishable (as bananas initially only go in cardinal directions) but not AS punishable.

Any real mix of JJC utilt combos with various starters and finishers... I'm not really talking in specifics, because none of the ones I would say is a specific "combo", but is instead dependent on DI/air-didge/ and what I affectionately call "getout moves" (think: Luigi's Nair)

Speaking strictly from experience here, Diddy's weight makes him incredibly easy to just link attacks together... Stuff like Dair > JJCx2 > Utiltx2 > grab > pummelx2 > dthrow or uthrow > followup in air just seem to work... of course they are a bit dependent on both players here... the comboer can switch it up to account for any escape attempts, while the comboee can try to DI various ways and such...

Like I said, these aren't specific combos, as they can be escaped... it just seems like Diddy has a harder time than most.

Diddy's possession of a banana in the air doesn't really change this too very much, because uair and Fair both hit from 45 degree angles, where banana won't hit...

At an advantage at keeping them away from Diddy? No. He's one of the better characters who can punish Diddy's initial plucking of bananas because of ground speed and moves like dash attack and rising F-air that usually cover the range Diddy plucks bananas from. However, other things like actually keeping bananas under control, Fox is not at an advantage in.

What if Diddy just hits Fox, which he should? Diddy's grabs and throws are really good, his D-tilt is quick and at max range pretty safe on shield, his retreating F-air isn't completely safe but it can hit a shield and be somewhat safe and if it hits then it has good knockback. OoS U-smash is a good option if Fox misspaces or messes up or attacks your shield with the wrong things, etc. Diddy could also anticipate something like a rising F-air and airdodge behind it and pluck a banana. There's a lot of instances where Diddy can create space; it's not as if Diddy and Fox are going in a linear dash race.

At the beginning of a match, like no way that Diddy pulls bananas is safe unless it's like FD or something, but even then he can get lasers. I said that Diddy has a bunch of different tricks and ways to pluck bananas, but NONE of them are safe. They're all punishable by Fox because of his dash speed. But this is usually just the initial pluck; afterwards, Diddy has options to pluck bananas, including when you're offstage, or after you get hit or thrown, etc.

His speed alone doesn't allow him to stop Diddy's good banana game. It allows him to punish initial plucks and pick up misspaced throws. That is all that speed alone Fox is able to do to Diddy's banana game. Speed doesn't make a good actual banana game, it just helps with a few individual things. There's nothing stopping Diddy from getting his bananas back from Fox, or keeping his bananas from him when he's in good control of them.

He doesn't have unpunishable attacks on shield. Well, he has some, like retreating N-air when Diddy doesn't have a banana behind him or something, but a lot isn't. Diddy also has a decent grab game, which puts space between Fox and Diddy, which allows Diddy to pluck a banana.

Fox can't often seperate Diddy from his bananas (specifically I can't think of options other than Diddy messing up or that one situation where Fox can pick them up from Diddy being defensive, but there isn't much stopping Diddy from just getting them back or predicting Fox's options with bananas unless you can be specific as to why.

Fox makes it risky for Diddy to pull bananas at the beginning of the game, and because of his speed, there needs to be more distance between them for him to pluck (things like being FH above him don't work as well because of rising F-air), but Diddy can still pluck bananas by creating distance, and as long as he has one banana he can more easily create safe situations to pluck a second.

Threw one of Diddy's bananas behind him is what I meant by standard diffusion. You're "diffusing" the banana out of Diddy's play and yours, and making him deal with only having one or none.

In all honesty, you should never get both of his bananas, but if you did then yes, that's what you'd do (same with one). Laser until he approaches (if he does) and do what you said is probably your best bet, as Diddy pretty much has to predict something to get through you (although if he still has one banana it's a bit easier for him).

Ok a lot here... hope I catch everything.

Anything that Fox can use the bananas for is very situational... I personally enjoy banana Usmash (particularly when I teamed with GDX lol), but speaking resonably, Fox doesn't control bananas as well as Diddy... I would never say that he does.

What his main goal in grabbing bananas should always be is to throw a wrench in Diddy's game plan... whether by using the banana against him, or keeping it away from Diddy.

And I agree that Fox is fairly incapable of effectively controlling both bananas... there come times in the matchup where Fox has grabbed, and separated one banana from Diddy. The 'ideal' defensive situation basically gives a banana to a Fox willing to FH z-catch retreat (or something of the like)

So in normal play, it's reasonable that Fox can limit Diddy to one banana at some points during the match (I'm leaving this a bit vague, since I feel we've been over how Fox picks up bananas and such...I can clarify, if needed, but I don't want to just repeat everything)

With Diddy having only one banana in his hand, Fox (as suggested before in this post) can apply quite a bit of pressure to the back of Diddy's shield... (or he could just grab, really) and Diddy shouldn't really have an OoS option against this... except jump to reset, or roll out (or dodge and hope Fox misses) Each of these is pretty risky... jumping gives Fox probably his best position in this matchup (Diddy in the air, Fox on ground). Rolling and dodging are punishable from prediction, so at least it is risky... And enough shield hits, and Dair will poke it...

Then if Diddy were to throw this banana, and it not hit Fox (which again is understandable, especially if Fox can land a hit to combo, making Diddy try to stop it in the air by throwing the banana, which you listed as a possibility in the situation), Diddy is limited to no banana... and for that period of time will have quite a bit of issues with Fox's shield pressure game, and overall decent moveset for keeping Diddy away from the bananas...

If Fox can keep Diddy from effectively using his bananas for part af this match, then he is at quite an advantage, imo... Diddy does have a decent moveset besides, as well, but (imo only) Fox's is better suited for the matchup.

And yes, Diddy could throw Fox away to get a safe banana pull, but he also would have to land a grab here (which isn't impossible, but which also is risky, and may not work against a well-spaced Fox...) . Diddy's dtilt is very good, but doesn't guarantee a grab... Fair is a good option, but is also somewhat risky... Yes, he has moves that can reset the match, and give him banana control, but they all are risky against Fox, if he loses his guaranteed setup in the banana, especially since banana plucks aren't a given against Fox.

I don't ever recall saying that Fox doesn't have a safe kill move. A kill move that comes out on frame 8 is pretty decent as an OoS attack, as it can punish laggy things on shield and such. I was saying that it's hard for Fox to get a kill with Diddy in that ideal defensive position. If Diddy's more offensive, sure, but when he's more campy with bananas around him, it's harder to get an immediate kill. You can still strip him of the banana or outguess him and such like that, but when Diddy's in that "ideal" position (which as you said probably isn't the best, but is a good ideal defensive decision) you can't do a direct U-smash, or grab, or D-air (if you jump, Diddy can just shield); you have to take more steps to get the kill.

It depends if F-air landed in it's lag for Diddy. It's not a good option for Diddy to ever land with a F-air honestly, they should always do it from a SH so that he lands normally , but yeah if he lands in F-air you can dash U-smash I think.

MFK depends on when it hits. If it's lag cancelled (which you can do if you buffer the kick from a standing position or SH, or just any MFK from a FH) or you hit towards the end of the kick, Diddy should be able to shield or air-dodge before the U-smash connects (especially if Diddy crosses up Fox's shield). If not, then U-smash should connect.

Shielded forward GT, again, it's a spacing thing.

F-smash, yes, but Diddy shouldn't do a random standing F-smash often tbh.

D-smash should make your shield slide far back enough.

But yeah, if Diddy messes up then it's a good OoS option to kill him, I agree.

That's fine, but I was mainly responding to the "Diddy is a better killer here than Fox" argument that was presented early in the discussion... which you already said "true" for, so I don't really have an issue with any of this... I'm sorry if I misquoted you a bit there.

The last one...out-pressure him into doing what? Making mistakes? You weren't so clear here.

shield pressure forces some form of movement from Diddy, either a dodge/roll or jump (if GT backwards does not stop it.)...

So in essence, yes, a mistake... but each of these is punishable by Fox, especially jump.

What I'm surprised by is the fact that Diddy mains primarily foced on this so-called 'ideal' defensive situation, rather than Diddy's offensive option in the match... which is where I feel he strongly controls the match

The fact is that you're correct, Fox can never hope to out camp Diddy, because he fires a few lasers, and Diddy is within banana range.... and Fox can't just blatantly run from Diddy... Diddy's quick enough to hold a central ground.

and Diddy can fairly safely play a very impressive banana game in a range where Fox can't do much... and actually punish Fox for trying to pick a banana up. This was why I originally said that SH Fair was a good banana grabber... I never meant it would be against a banana directly in front of shield, I was mainly meaning against bananas that had just landed, or are even still in the air... I was confused a bit by that, so sorry for any confusion.

And Fox, a normally fairly good defensive/punishment character, has quite a lot of trouble against this midrange game, as long as Diddy can safely apply it.

This is personally why I feel that Foxes do poorly and/or hate Diddy in this match... you have to change your playstyle to an offensive one, and several Foxes have trouble with that.

The only reason I feel that Fox can turn this situation into a 5-5 is that he has a good punishment game... if he can approach, limit Diddy's options with bananas, apply good shield pressure, and keep Diddy out of that mid-range game, his killing advantage really helps him in the match. otherwise, Diddy just seems to tear him up mid range....

Like personally, unlike many Brawl matchups, in this matchup, I feel the defensive player loses...

C.R.Z · Sep 28, 2009

went to a tourney 2 days ago Sigh* got knocked out by a diddy...
yeah i was wrong for sure, but to be fair it was one of if not the best diddy in europe and it was very close...

diddy: fox
55:45

*CT* · Sep 29, 2009

Thanks guys for all the information, I personally have a tough time with this match up but that is just me.

In my book its a 5/5 match up, 55 Diddy/ 45 Fox at most?

NeverKnowsBest · Sep 30, 2009

CloudRain said:
went to a tourney 2 days ago Sigh* got knocked out by a diddy...
yeah i was wrong for sure, but to be fair it was one of if not the best diddy in europe and it was very close...

diddy: fox
55:45

ROFL, I like how you just say you got knocked out by a Diddy and say it's 55:45. Give reasons fool!

FenFen, I like the throwing Diddy's banana's behind Fox. I will try that next time.

a male platypus · Oct 5, 2009

I'm not gonna read anything that's already been said before I input my own analysis on this match up.

Diddy wins, by a pretty big gap imo. I'd say about 65/35 his favor.

mainly because of bananas obviously. It's so much easier for Diddy to bait/mindgame a Fox onto those and punish him than it is for Fox to avoid and mindgame/punish Diddy overall. Which makes for such a huge disadvantage from the get go.

His recovery, although easily gimped require such precise timing to do correctly so that you don't die along with him or just get screwed in the end. The Peanuts gimp your recovery, plus his spike ***** Fox on the illusion if timed right. If you go for a firefox vertically he can actually drop down and use sideB on you during charging time to send you under the stage and still recover. Not to mention the plain jane Bair the firefox and stage spike em trick.

Diddy is suppose to be weak and light, but since Fox himself is so light you'll find yourself dying from an uncharged Fsmash/Dsmash as low as 80%!!! Also due to the rarity of ever being able to actually hit Diddy with one of Fox's killing moves means that he may end up living to pretty high percents. Uair can **** Diddy tho, especially if you fall onto him with it when he's not expecting it

Another thing that turns this in Diddy's favor is that he's pretty fast. You can't do half of the approaches/tactics you do against most characters against him because he can run over to you and punish you unlike most of the cast.

I'm really tired and alot of that might not be readable but I'll try to fix it if I see it

AvaricePanda · Oct 6, 2009

Not to fully go into this, but Fox dying from an uncharged Diddy's F-smash or U-smash at 80%?

lolwut.

Zhamy · Oct 6, 2009

DON'T YOU KNOW DIDDY FSMASH IS SUPER POWERFUL oh my god i die so much to it sometimes he hits me at 30% on hyrule temple from the middle of the stage and I die

Zephil · Oct 7, 2009

... I am tired of this discussion... I think can we put a final statement for god sake... I am dizzy of just reading the enormous posts between AP and the Fox Boards... matchups like this make me think that is bettert have this discussions in chat rooms :/

C.R.Z · Jul 13, 2010

NeverKnowsBest said:
ROFL, I like how you just say you got knocked out by a Diddy and say it's 55:45. Give reasons fool!

FenFen, I like the throwing Diddy's banana's behind Fox. I will try that next time.

ok, i know this match up quite well now, i use to think its 55-45 diddy adv but personally now i think its 50-50.the diddy player i play seems to think its fox's advantage but im not sure yet.so heres what ive discovered:

Bananas

they are not as much of an issue as i previously thought. the reason being because we have an out if we are getting pressured. if you read the diddy player correctly and predict that after the two nana throws at your shield they attack either via dash attack or fair then it can be punnished by Oos upsmash.if they try and follow up the nana throws with a grab, we can full hop out of shield and punish.full hop out of shield is the safest option when being pressured at all, diddy cannot punish us, even if they still have a nana and throw it up wards we have shine stall and can reflect it back.

picking up nanas has already been mentioned, it may take a little getting use to but it will eventually feel like seconed nature. pick the right moment to throw any nanas, we can lazer to bait an approach.If we are next to a shielding diddy then throwing a nana downwards will make an automatic trip allowing for an easy upsmash *note diddy can also do this aswell so never stay to close.

Other

interms of fighting in genral against diddy, we have a much better advantage.our mobility + speed + crossups + killing power makes life very hard for diddy.drill will be a signifficant tool in this match up, its best to use it as a cross up create string oppertunitys and create lots of damage.the other significant tool is lazers.people keep saying dont use lazers much in this match up but there are wrong. lazer provide good amounts of damage will baiting an approach.even if the diddy has nanas in hand, as long as fox space well they are not an issue as blocking the double nana approach allows us to counter attack. its important to play safe when we have a lead. keep your distance, use lazers and dont make any unecassary attacks, just concentrate on playing defensive and punnishing mistakes.Note that fair is another way to rack up damage if diddy trys to come in from the air at any point.

ok im done, soz if anything didnt make sense, pm me if there is anything you didnt understand and ill try and explain it better.

Robfox · Jul 13, 2010

Zephil said:
... I am tired of this discussion... I think can we put a final statement for god sake... I am dizzy of just reading the enormous posts between AP and the Fox Boards... matchups like this make me think that is bettert have this discussions in chat rooms :/

agreed so many different opinions such long posts >_<

AvaricePanda · Jul 13, 2010

I agree with what you said about full hopping out of shield at banana throws at your shield; it's the safest option if Diddy tries to punish your other options. Another thing you can do is when a banana hits your shield, short hop and Z-catch it in the air (or instant-throw it down) and then do whatever. However, Diddy shouldn't be throwing both bananas at your shield...like ever. He really shouldn't throw one at you in this match-up in opportunities where you can just shield because he can really just sit back and wait for you to do something more.

I disagree with the match-up being even (still), this is pretty much what I said after I played Jayford (onwifilol) for advice.

Your best bet in this match-up is pressuring Diddy when he doesn't have bananas, so like at the beginning of the match. Bananaless you have quite a few more options on his shield, and it's also much easier to get in. Stay on top of him and try to punish his actual banana plucks as well (sometimes these are readable with things like double-jumps, although you'll probably trade hits if you use F-air to punish since we can just SDI out and b-air/u-air/whatever you....f-air's only a good aerial if they can't SDI and then it sucks lol, but learn if they can first before dismissing it cause it's useful otherwise).

When Diddy gets bananas this match-up gets ******** for Fox. None of your attacks are safe on shield (except obviously a grab and maybe a perfectly spaced B-air but not only is that telegraphed, it's kinda hard because of Diddy's short height). SH(D/T)Ling isn't safe at mid-range because Diddy can punish your landing with a banana throw. Moving around's significantly harder, and things like dribbling back actually work well for Diddy (will offset your spacing if you're thinking about trying a dash grab or empty SH into something, as well as just punish random U-smashes so don't do that lol). So at this point, your best bet is to play defensive and bait because a mid-range Diddy eats so many of Fox's options.

Try to bait banana throws by doing things like walking around Diddy's range or empty short hopping or whatever, and if a banana hits your shield, pick up on Diddy's habits of how he tries to punish you. Does he run up and grab because you react late? Does he dash attack because you jump slightly late (or he's on autopilot)? Does he wait kinda out of your range with his other banana to punish your F-air/N-air/Z-catch banana? Pick up on this (and other subtle banana habits that come with playing a lot of Diddys). You need banana experience, not necessarily to try to set up your own little things (your throws aren't the best and more often than not throwing a banana back at Diddy is just like handing it to him) but to know what Diddy wants to do so you can not do that.

Something cute and kinda gimmicky you can do is if you predict a banana toss, shine and JC out of it. Don't do it often though, because if Diddy ever baits a shine or you just predict wrong than he can monkey-flip kick you. Shine isn't really that good in this match-up but you can use it situationally.

When you get a banana, better options than throwing it back at Diddy are running away and lasering with it, or throwing it behind you and then seeing (if they're really impatient) if they try to run and get it so you can punish that, or you can throw it off-stage and try to punish his banana plucks again. Fox doesn't have the best offensive item control. The most annoying I've found to deal with is Fox running past the range where a second banana will punish you and lasering with the first banana.

Gimps don't really happen on either side often. Both characters can punish most get-ups but not really all at once, although something you should never do is try to illusion back on the stage from ledge height. Just don't. Diddy can easily just shield and banana toss and there's a good 15% at least.

tl;dr: Get offensive and pressure Diddy when he doesn't have bananas or good banana control, because once he gets that the match-up is tons harder for you. At that point you have to learn banana things, know the safest ways around them, and read the little tricks Diddy likes to do with them. Try to seperate him from his banana control whenever you can so the match-up is easier. When Diddy has good banana control though, it's really difficult to get in a hit and almost impossible to get in a kill move.

I'd say 6/4; it's not a bad match-up but Diddy seems to have a clear advantage. It's so much harder as Fox vs. Diddy as compared to Diddy vs. Fox.

edit: oh and sorry for the really long posts from last year. I theorycrafted pretty badly then lol (not to say I don't theorycraft bad now but it's better) and nothing got accomplished from those long posts. I was wordy and didn't know some basic things that would often make 5 paragraphs = one sentence.

pretty much all of the above is just advice I'm not actually arguing about the match-up, 6-4 is just what I think it is

Conviction · Jul 13, 2010

I should be getting a match of me vs. P-1 after Saturday's tourney.

C.R.Z · Jul 13, 2010

ive got some but my laptop is broken and ive lent my capture card to a friend <_<

Jayford · Jul 15, 2010

Avarice speaks the truth.

4Biddin · Jul 15, 2010

MY MOST HATED MATCH UP!!!

Just had to get that out lol

I believe this match up to be 50/50

(This is all being played out as if the match is being played on FD)

Diddy Kong of course has bananas which are a great advantage but at this stage in brawls meta game its really just looked at as just another tool instead of a broken item.

Diddy has great air attacks and many uses for his specials. The main flaw for him in this match up is he will have a hard time killing a top level fox. D smash and Fair are great options along with his spike, But landing these can be a pain in the butt and the only chance they may have for a KO is when they manage to get fox off stage. At about medium to close range lazers are punishable with nanas which will help keep fox on his toes and from camping too much.

Fox as stated earlier has the option of grabbing bananas with SH fair which can even the grounds or even prevent you from gaining large amounts of damage from nanas. Fox should not be attack a Diddy who has their shield up along with a nana in hand. Boost grabbing is great for this match up because it can help stop diddy from abusing his OOS options and if you whiff your grab it can put you at a good distance from any great punishes. Usmash should be killing diddy at about 95% it is surviable if they have gdlk DI though. Also abuse SHAD this will grab nanas and help you better position yourself. Also use it if you start to get a feeling for the pattern that diddy throw is nana.

Overall 50/50 no glaring advantages to either character both have to work their butt off to get a W.

AvaricePanda · Jul 25, 2010

Diddy can just get kills off of banana trips; really it's hard for him to kill because if you trip at high percents, you can telegraph a smash and just have consistent really good DI. You'll be living longer because of that. However, avoiding a kill move by itself is harder because you have to watch out for any banana trips and play extremely cautiously, along with avoiding kill moves outside of banana trips like F-air.

On the other side, Fox kills much earlier (100%) but it's much harder for you to land U-smash (or d-smash) because of Diddy's defensive options (lol shield) and how he can still keep a bit of pressure at a good distance.

Grabbing bananas with SH F-air I wouldn't recommend. The quicker/laglesser (lolnotaword) you can pick up a banana the better—Z-catching, instant throwing down, or SHAD like you said are all good ideas. If you SH F-air, Diddy can run in and punish with a second banana or just an attack/running shield).

Match-Up Export #3: Diddy Kong | Creating Summary

Smash Hero

Smash Champion

Smash Lord

Smash Lord

Smash Lord

Smash Lord

Smash Lord

Smash Lord

Smash Champion

Smash Master

Smash Lord

Smash Champion

Smash Lord

Smash Master

Smash Champion

Smash Lord

Smash Ace

Smash Lord

Smash Ace

Smash Master

Smash Lord

Smash Lord

Smash Master

Smash Lord

Smash Master

Smash Lord

Smash Lord

Monochrome Like A Panda

Smash Apprentice

Smash Lord

Smash Champion

Smash Ace

Smash Lord

Smash Lord

Smash Lord

Human Nature

Smash Lord

Smash Lord

Smash Journeyman

Smash Lord

Information

Network