Matchup Chart Project 2015 - Calling Pac-man Mains!

[Zareidriel]

Hello Pacman boards,

I'm Zareidriel. Over in this thread a guy called Assassannerr made a matchup chart, and asked people to help fill it out. It seems like it would be a cool thing to have. With once glance you could have a rough idea of a matchup. It won't be perfect, but for our first go at it in 2015 we're aiming for "somewhat functional."

So here's what I'm going to do. Go to every Character Discussion board, and ask the folks there if they wouldn't mind contributing. To submit one vote, you'll have to fill out one of these:

////////////******
Bowser
Bowser Jr
Captain Falcon
Charizard
Diddy Kong
Donkey Kong
Duck Hunt
Falco
Fox
Mr. Game & Watch
Ganondorf
Greninja
Ike
Jigglypuff
King Dedede
Kirby
Link
Little Mac
Lucario
Luigi
Mario
Dr. Mario
Marth
Lucina
Metaknight
Ness
Olimar
Palutena
Pikachu
Pit & Dark Pit
Peach
Zelda
R.O.B.
Robin
Rosalina
Samus
Sheik
Shulk
Toon Link
Villager
Wario
Wii Fit Trainer
Yoshi
Zero Suit Samus
Megaman
Pacman
Sonic
Ryu
Roy
Mewtwo
Lucas
Brawler
Swordfighter
Gunner
******//////////


Mark each character with a + for a match where Pacman HAS THE ADVANTAGE
Mark each character with a - for a match where Pacman HAS THE DISADVANTAGE
Mark each character with a number 0 for a match you feel is very even.

NOTE THAT I AM ONLY TAKING VOTES FROM MEMBERS WITH Pacman IN THEIR PROFILE BAR. It can be as either "Wii U Main" or "3DS Main". But if Pacman is in neither one of those slots when I count the votes on Friday, Nov 13, it won't be counted.

(Yes, for the avid democrats out there, that means you can vote for one other character as well.)

Like I said, they won't be perfect, and each board will probably be a little biased toward their own respective character. But the results should be interesting regardless.

If this thing is successful maybe we'll do a revised version in 2016.

Thanks very much for participating! We need as many votes as possible for each character so please submit a ballot!

 

[verbatim]

////////////******
Bowser -
Bowser Jr 0
Captain Falcon -
Charizard +
Diddy Kong +
Donkey Kong -
Duck Hunt +
Falco -
Fox -
Mr. Game & Watch 0
Ganondorf -
Greninja 0
Ike 0
Jigglypuff 0
King Dedede +
Kirby +
Link +
Little Mac +
Lucario -
Luigi +
Mario -
Dr. Mario 0
Marth +
Lucina +
Metaknight +
Ness +
Olimar +
Palutena +
Pikachu +
Pit & Dark Pit +
Peach 0
Zelda 0
R.O.B. 0
Robin +
Rosalina 0
Samus 0
Sheik -
Shulk +
Toon Link 0
Villager -
Wario -
Wii Fit Trainer 0
Yoshi -
Zero Suit Samus -
Megaman 0
Pacman 0
Sonic +
Ryu -
Roy -
Mewtwo 0
Lucas 0
Brawler +
Swordfighter 0
Gunner +
******//////////

 

[Splebel]

////////////******
Bowser -
Bowser Jr +
Captain Falcon -
Charizard -
Diddy Kong 0
Donkey Kong -
Duck Hunt 0
Falco -
Fox 0
Mr. Game & Watch 0
Ganondorf -
Greninja 0
Ike 0
Jigglypuff 0
King Dedede +
Kirby 0
Link 0
Little Mac +
Lucario -
Luigi 0
Mario -
Dr. Mario -
Marth -
Lucina -
Metaknight 0
Ness -
Olimar 0
Palutena 0
Pikachu 0
Pit & Dark Pit 0
Peach 0
Zelda 0
R.O.B. 0
Robin -
Rosalina -
Samus -
Sheik -
Shulk 0
Toon Link 0
Villager -
Wario 0
Wii Fit Trainer 0
Yoshi 0
Zero Suit Samus 0
Megaman 0
Pacman 0
Sonic -
Ryu 0
Roy -
Mewtwo 0
Lucas -
Brawler 0
Swordfighter 0
Gunner 0
******//////////

I tend to be rather neutral

 

[Zage]

////////////******
Bowser +
Bowser Jr +
Captain Falcon +
Charizard +
Diddy Kong +
Donkey Kong +
Duck Hunt 0
Falco -
Fox -
Mr. Game & Watch +
Ganondorf +
Greninja +
Ike +
Jigglypuff +
King Dedede +
Kirby +
Link 0
Little Mac +
Lucario -
Luigi +
Mario -
Dr. Mario 0
Marth +
Lucina +
Metaknight +
Ness -
Olimar 0
Palutena +
Pikachu -
Pit & Dark Pit +
Peach +
Zelda +
R.O.B. -
Robin 0
Rosalina 0
Samus +
Sheik -
Shulk -
Toon Link 0
Villager 0
Wario -
Wii Fit Trainer +
Yoshi -
Zero Suit Samus -
Megaman +
Pacman 0
Sonic 0
Ryu +
Roy -
Mewtwo +
Lucas -
Brawler +
Swordfighter +
Gunner +
******//////////

 

[ZeoLightning]

Bowser +
Bowser Jr +
Captain Falcon +
Charizard +
Diddy Kong 0
Donkey Kong +
Duck Hunt 0
Falco -
Fox -
Mr. Game & Watch +
Ganondorf +
Greninja +
Ike +
Jigglypuff +
King Dedede +
Kirby +
Link 0
Little Mac +
Lucario 0
Luigi 0
Mario -
Dr. Mario -
Marth +
Lucina +
Metaknight 0
Ness 0
Olimar 0
Palutena 0
Pikachu -
Pit & Dark Pit 0
Peach 0
Zelda +
R.O.B. 0
Robin 0
Rosalina -
Samus +
Sheik -
Shulk 0
Toon Link -
Villager -
Wario 0
Wii Fit Trainer +
Yoshi 0
Zero Suit Samus 0
Megaman 0
Pacman 0
Sonic -
Ryu 0
Roy 0
Mewtwo 0
Lucas 0
Brawler +
Swordfighter +
Gunner 0


from my experience and seeing results

 

[Nu~]

Bowser +
Bowser Jr +
Captain Falcon 0
Charizard +
Diddy Kong +
Donkey Kong +
Duck Hunt +
Falco 0
Fox -
Mr. Game & Watch +
Ganondorf +
Greninja -
Ike 0
Jigglypuff +
King Dedede +
Kirby +
Link +
Little Mac +++++
Lucario +
Luigi +
Mario 0
Dr. Mario +
Marth +
Lucina +
Metaknight 0
Ness +
Olimar +
Palutena 0
Pikachu 0
Pit & Dark Pit 0
Peach +
Zelda +
R.O.B. 0
Robin 0
Rosalina +
Samus 0
Sheik -
Shulk 0
Toon Link +
Villager +
Wario -
Wii Fit Trainer 0
Yoshi 0
Zero Suit Samus -
Megaman +
Pacman 0
Sonic +
Ryu +
Roy +
Mewtwo 0
Lucas 0
Brawler +
Swordfighter +
Gunner +

 

[PEPESPAIN]

Bowser +
Bowser Jr +
Captain Falcon +
Charizard +
Diddy Kong +
Donkey Kong ++
Duck Hunt 0
Falco 0
Fox 0
Mr. Game & Watch +
Ganondorf +
Greninja -
Ike 0
Jigglypuff +
King Dedede +
Kirby +
Link --
Little Mac +
Lucario +
Luigi +
Mario --
Dr. Mario --
Marth +
Lucina +
Metaknight 0
Ness ++
Olimar +
Palutena -
Pikachu 0
Pit & Dark Pit 0
Peach +
Zelda +
R.O.B. -
Robin 0
Rosalina +
Samus -
Sheik -
Shulk 0
Toon Link +
Villager +
Wario -
Wii Fit Trainer 0
Yoshi 0
Zero Suit Samus -
Megaman +
Pacman 0
Sonic ++
Ryu 0
Roy +
Mewtwo +
Lucas +
Brawler +
Swordfighter +
Gunner +

 

[ToxoT]

////////////******
Bowser +
Bowser Jr +
Captain Falcon +
Charizard +
Diddy Kong 0
Donkey Kong +
Duck Hunt+
Falco 0
Fox -
Mr. Game & Watch +
Ganondorf +
Greninja -
Ike +
Jigglypuff +
King Dedede +
Kirby +
Link 0
Little Mac +
Lucario -
Luigi -
Mario -
Dr. Mario 0
Marth +
Lucina +
Metaknight 0
Ness +
Olimar +
Palutena +
Pikachu -
Pit & Dark Pit 0
Peach 0
Zelda +
R.O.B. -
Robin 0
Rosalina -
Samus 0
Sheik -
Shulk +
Toon Link 0
Villager -
Wario 0
Wii Fit Trainer +
Yoshi 0
Zero Suit Samus -
Megaman 0
Pacman 0
Sonic -
Ryu -
Roy +
Mewtwo +
Lucas 0
Brawler +
Swordfighter +
Gunner +
******//////////

 

[xzx]

////////////******
Bowser -
Bowser Jr 0
Captain Falcon -
Charizard 0
Diddy Kong -
Donkey Kong -
Duck Hunt 0
Falco -
Fox -
Mr. Game & Watch 0
Ganondorf 0
Greninja -
Ike -
Jigglypuff -
King Dedede 0
Kirby 0
Link -
Little Mac 0
Lucario -
Luigi 0
Mario -
Dr. Mario -
Marth -
Lucina -
Metaknight 0
Ness -
Olimar 0
Palutena 0
Pikachu -
Pit & Dark Pit -
Peach -
Zelda 0
R.O.B. 0
Robin -
Rosalina -
Samus 0
Sheik -
Shulk 0
Toon Link 0
Villager -
Wario -
Wii Fit Trainer 0
Yoshi -
Zero Suit Samus -
Megaman -
Pacman 0
Sonic -
Ryu -
Roy -
Mewtwo 0
Lucas -
Brawler -
Swordfighter 0
Gunner +
******//////////

(Assuming Custom Moves are off.)

 

[Splebel]

////////////******
Bowser -
Bowser Jr 0
Captain Falcon -
Charizard 0
Diddy Kong -
Donkey Kong -
Duck Hunt 0
Falco -
Fox -
Mr. Game & Watch 0
Ganondorf 0
Greninja -
Ike -
Jigglypuff -
King Dedede 0
Kirby 0
Link -
Little Mac 0
Lucario -
Luigi 0
Mario -
Dr. Mario -
Marth -
Lucina -
Metaknight 0
Ness -
Olimar 0
Palutena 0
Pikachu -
Pit & Dark Pit -
Peach -
Zelda 0
R.O.B. 0
Robin -
Rosalina -
Samus 0
Sheik -
Shulk 0
Toon Link 0
Villager -
Wario -
Wii Fit Trainer 0
Yoshi -
Zero Suit Samus -
Megaman -
Pacman 0
Sonic -
Ryu -
Roy -
Mewtwo 0
Lucas -
Brawler -
Swordfighter 0
Gunner +
******//////////

(Assuming Custom Moves are off.)

Hold up. I want you to explain this one. We don't only have only good matchup.

 

[PEPESPAIN]

////////////******
Bowser -
Bowser Jr 0
Captain Falcon -
Charizard 0
Diddy Kong -
Donkey Kong -
Duck Hunt 0
Falco -
Fox -
Mr. Game & Watch 0
Ganondorf 0
Greninja -
Ike -
Jigglypuff -
King Dedede 0
Kirby 0
Link -
Little Mac 0
Lucario -
Luigi 0
Mario -
Dr. Mario -
Marth -
Lucina -
Metaknight 0
Ness -
Olimar 0
Palutena 0
Pikachu -
Pit & Dark Pit -
Peach -
Zelda 0
R.O.B. 0
Robin -
Rosalina -
Samus 0
Sheik -
Shulk 0
Toon Link 0
Villager -
Wario -
Wii Fit Trainer 0
Yoshi -
Zero Suit Samus -
Megaman -
Pacman 0
Sonic -
Ryu -
Roy -
Mewtwo 0
Lucas -
Brawler -
Swordfighter 0
Gunner +
******//////////

(Assuming Custom Moves are off.)

WTF?

 

[Nu~]

That list is just as irrational as your "buff dreams"

Now I have further reason to not take you seriously.

 

[Zage]

////////////******
Bowser -
Bowser Jr 0
Captain Falcon -
Charizard 0
Diddy Kong -
Donkey Kong -
Duck Hunt 0
Falco -
Fox -
Mr. Game & Watch 0
Ganondorf 0
Greninja -
Ike -
Jigglypuff -
King Dedede 0
Kirby 0
Link -
Little Mac 0
Lucario -
Luigi 0
Mario -
Dr. Mario -
Marth -
Lucina -
Metaknight 0
Ness -
Olimar 0
Palutena 0
Pikachu -
Pit & Dark Pit -
Peach -
Zelda 0
R.O.B. 0
Robin -
Rosalina -
Samus 0
Sheik -
Shulk 0
Toon Link 0
Villager -
Wario -
Wii Fit Trainer 0
Yoshi -
Zero Suit Samus -
Megaman -
Pacman 0
Sonic -
Ryu -
Roy -
Mewtwo 0
Lucas -
Brawler -
Swordfighter 0
Gunner +
******//////////

(Assuming Custom Moves are off.)

What the hell lol.

Edit: Posts like these should be excluded if this thing is to be successful.

 

[PEPESPAIN]

What the hell lol.

Edit: Posts like these should be excluded if this thing is to be successful.

100% agree

 

[ZeoLightning]

////////////******
Bowser -
Bowser Jr 0
Captain Falcon -
Charizard 0
Diddy Kong -
Donkey Kong -
Duck Hunt 0
Falco -
Fox -
Mr. Game & Watch 0
Ganondorf 0
Greninja -
Ike -
Jigglypuff -
King Dedede 0
Kirby 0
Link -
Little Mac 0
Lucario -
Luigi 0
Mario -
Dr. Mario -
Marth -
Lucina -
Metaknight 0
Ness -
Olimar 0
Palutena 0
Pikachu -
Pit & Dark Pit -
Peach -
Zelda 0
R.O.B. 0
Robin -
Rosalina -
Samus 0
Sheik -
Shulk 0
Toon Link 0
Villager -
Wario -
Wii Fit Trainer 0
Yoshi -
Zero Suit Samus -
Megaman -
Pacman 0
Sonic -
Ryu -
Roy -
Mewtwo 0
Lucas -
Brawler -
Swordfighter 0
Gunner +
******//////////

(Assuming Custom Moves are off.)

oh hell naw

 

[Splebel]

To xzx's defense. This is opinion-based and he is entitled to his opinion. My answer was based on my own experiences more than the board's consensus. I just wanted to hear his opinion on why he thinks we only have an advantage against Gunner.

 

[Zareidriel]

Voting closes tomorrow at midnight. Get those ballots in!

 

[Aaron1997]

////////////******
Bowser -
Bowser Jr +
Captain Falcon +
Charizard +
Diddy Kong -
Donkey Kong +
Duck Hunt 0
Falco +
Fox +
Mr. Game & Watch +
Ganondorf +
Greninja +
Ike +
Jigglypuff +
King Dedede 0
Kirby +
Link 0
Little Mac +
Lucario 0
Luigi +
Mario -
Dr. Mario 0
Marth +
Lucina +
Metaknight +
Ness 0
Olimar +
Palutena -
Pikachu 0
Pit & Dark Pit 0
Peach 0
Zelda +
R.O.B. -
Robin +
Rosalina 0
Samus 0
Sheik -
Shulk +
Toon Link 0
Villager +
Wario 0
Wii Fit Trainer +
Yoshi 0
Zero Suit Samus +
Megaman 0
Pacman 0
Sonic -
Ryu +
Roy +
Mewtwo +
Lucas 0
Brawler +
Swordfighter +
Gunner +
******//////////

 

[Froggy]

To xzx's defense. This is opinion-based and he is entitled to his opinion. My answer was based on my own experiences more than the board's consensus. I just wanted to hear his opinion on why he thinks we only have an advantage against Gunner.

I'm surprised BSP isn't in here -ing everything

 

[xzx]

Haha, oh wow. Suddenly everyone is bashing me for my opinions just because I don't have a similar opinion like you. Hurray?

To xzx's defense. This is opinion-based and he is entitled to his opinion. My answer was based on my own experiences more than the board's consensus. I just wanted to hear his opinion on why he thinks we only have an advantage against Gunner.

If scribbeling this thread because of someone else's opinion about PAC-MAN's matchups and if that said person is allowed (in this thread) to explain why he/she thinks PAC-MAN only has one advantageous matchup in a thread where PAC-MAN mains should just post their ratios about PAC-MAN's matchup spread and thus not care what other submits, then I can do a brief review of why I hold my opinion:

Simply put, the game (and thus the metagame) is very young - characters are being explored, the game's mechanics are being explored and the general matchup knowledge is far from "completed". I think many people don't understand the PAC-MAN matchup and thus the PAC-MAN mains have it easier winning matches, which could lead to people believing PAC-MAN is a better character than he really is, and same goes for his matchup ratios. (Deciding matchups so early in a metagame will not have accurate ratios.)

I believe PAC-MAN does not benefit from the game's mechanics at all, especially compared to other characters like Captain Falcon, Link and Mario. There is no true edge hogging in this game (meaning as soon as a character can reach the ledge, it won't get gimped), the engine and physiques don't allow for consistent comboing and stringing, the shields (and the exaggerated defensive mechanics for that matter) make it ever-important to have a useful and viable grab, and then we have the other bull**** mechanics like rage effect that makes it extremely unfair for lightweights, weak characters and those who struggles a lot to score the KO vs. those who don't. This leads me to the "philosophy" that the only things you really need to be viable in this game are a decent grab (or whatever that deals with shields well) that can punish shields well while having safe moves/attributes along with good KO abilities, meaning the rest isn't "as important". What I mean by this is that it doesn't really matter if you have a "bad" recovery since as long as you reach the ledge, you're safe, meaning that it is the best weakness you can have in this game (as opposed to Melee/Brawl). There are a select few characters that really struggles in the KOing department, and PAC-MAN is one of them (I have discussed this before). Some characters will just kill "sooner or later" (like Lucina, Sheik and Captain Falcon) while others (like PAC-MAN) really have to get past all the defensive stuff first before being able to setup a KO and even then the KO might not be strong enough to secure the KO anyway. (Hope you get my general point of this.)

As you can see, PAC-MAN can't really punish shields (even though he has several ways to break one; however, this requires the right conditions and some setup for it to work and even then the opponent will be wary of this anyway) and he can't really KO well.

In Brawl, however, that would be another story - he would have great combos and strings, the edge-guarding system would be more rewarding towards him (since he has a great recovery and several gimp options) and he also wouldn't be completely screwed by rage. That would kind of make up for his weaknesses. Then it wouldn't be >that bad< if he struggled to KO since he now has a great edge-guarding strategy and good comboing/stringing ability that would make up for his KO weakness. Then I would believe that he would have more advantageous matchups and be a better character overall. But this isn't Brawl, this is Smash 4, which relies less on gimps and damage racking and more on "brute force", especially á la rage.

Matchup ratios will change, and in the future all of us will have different views on certain matchups and matchup ratios. I am 100 % certain of this. So don't get all caught up in matchup ratios, since they will differ in the future. Maybe next year I will have more + in my matchup list and you more -. Who knows.

Just wanted to say that I can advance my thoughts about this "philosophy" of mine further and give more details and examples, but I feel done with this since I said I would be brief. Now you've heard my opinion since you asked for it.

(But sheesh, everyone loses their mind about something opinion-based. It's ridiculous. What's even more ridiculous is that some of you want to rip me off my right to submit my own personalized opinion-based matchup ratio list just because you disagree with it and think it will make this project unsuccessful. It's okay to disagree, but to actually wanting to strip off someone's right to submit an opinion-based list just because oneself heavily disagrees with it? Seriously?)

I'm surprised BSP isn't in here -ing everything

Very mature. Others should be bashed too...? Good heavens.

 

[Splebel]

Haha, oh wow. Suddenly everyone is bashing me for my opinions just because I don't have a similar opinion like you. Hurray?


If scribbeling this thread because of someone else's opinion about PAC-MAN's matchups and if that said person is allowed (in this thread) to explain why he/she thinks PAC-MAN only has one advantageous matchup in a thread where PAC-MAN mains should just post their ratios about PAC-MAN's matchup spread and thus not care what other submits, then I can do a brief review of why I hold my opinion:

Simply put, the game (and thus the metagame) is very young - characters are being explored, the game's mechanics are being explored and the general matchup knowledge is far from "completed". I think many people don't understand the PAC-MAN matchup and thus the PAC-MAN mains have it easier winning matches, which could lead to people believing PAC-MAN is a better character than he really is, and same goes for his matchup ratios. (Deciding matchups so early in a metagame will not have accurate ratios.)

I believe PAC-MAN does not benefit from the game's mechanics at all, especially compared to other characters like Captain Falcon, Link and Mario. There is no true edge hogging in this game (meaning as soon as a character can reach the ledge, it won't get gimped), the engine and physiques don't allow for consistent comboing and stringing, the shields (and the exaggerated defensive mechanics for that matter) make it ever-important to have a useful and viable grab, and then we have the other bull**** mechanics like rage effect that makes it extremely unfair for lightweights, weak characters and those who struggles a lot to score the KO vs. those who don't. This leads me to the "philosophy" that the only things you really need to be viable in this game are a decent grab (or whatever that deals with shields well) that can punish shields well while having safe moves/attributes along with good KO abilities, meaning the rest isn't "as important". What I mean by this is that it doesn't really matter if you have a "bad" recovery since as long as you reach the ledge, you're safe, meaning that it is the best weakness you can have in this game (as opposed to Melee/Brawl). There are a select few characters that really struggles in the KOing department, and PAC-MAN is one of them (I have discussed this before). Some characters will just kill "sooner or later" (like Lucina, Sheik and Captain Falcon) while others (like PAC-MAN) really have to get past all the defensive stuff first before being able to setup a KO and even then the KO might not be strong enough to secure the KO anyway. (Hope you get my general point of this.)

As you can see, PAC-MAN can't really punish shields (even though he has several ways to break one; however, this requires the right conditions and some setup for it to work and even then the opponent will be wary of this anyway) and he can't really KO well.

In Brawl, however, that would be another story - he would have great combos and strings, the edge-guarding system would be more rewarding towards him (since he has a great recovery and several gimp options) and he also wouldn't be completely screwed by rage. That would kind of make up for his weaknesses. Then it wouldn't be >that bad< if he struggled to KO since he now has a great edge-guarding strategy and good comboing/stringing ability that would make up for his KO weakness. Then I would believe that he would have more advantageous matchups and be a better character overall. But this isn't Brawl, this is Smash 4, which relies less on gimps and damage racking and more on "brute force", especially á la rage.

Matchup ratios will change, and in the future all of us will have different views on certain matchups and matchup ratios. I am 100 % certain of this. So don't get all caught up in matchup ratios, since they will differ in the future. Maybe next year I will have more + in my matchup list and you more -. Who knows.

Just wanted to say that I can advance my thoughts about this "philosophy" of mine further and give more details and examples, but I feel done with this since I said I would be brief. Now you've heard my opinion since you asked for it.

(But sheesh, everyone loses their mind about something opinion-based. It's ridiculous. What's even more ridiculous is that some of you want to rip me off my right to submit my own personalized opinion-based matchup ratio list just because you disagree with it and think it will make this project unsuccessful. It's okay to disagree, but to actually wanting to strip off someone's right to submit an opinion-based list just because oneself heavily disagrees with it? Seriously?)



Very mature. Others should be bashed too...? Good heavens.

This doesn't explain why you think we have an advantage over Mii Gunner. What makes that one so special?

 

[Zage]

As you can see, PAC-MAN can't really punish shields (even though he has several ways to break one; however, this requires the right conditions and some setup for it to work and even then the opponent will be wary of this anyway) and he can't really KO well.

Struggling to KO hurts him for sure, even more so with rage working against him. However, not many characters in this game have the ability to keep up with Pac-Man, even fewer still have the mobility to punish him consistently once they do get into his zone. Up/Down-B both allow him to keep the game at a constant neutral, even in a disadvantaged state Up-B is a frame one unblock-able get off option that goes punished against a large majority of the cast. Down-B lets him return to the stage safely, or at worse makes it into a 50-50 where your opponent has to guess what side you're going to land on.

These options can stall the game out for a awhile, and he becomes a way better character once the timer is low. You'll start overextending ways in Pac-man wants you to in an effort to catch him, often boiling down to you either guess right or die to a projectile or reset to neutral ad infinitum and get timed out. No one else in the game can do this or plays the timer better than Pac-Man, other than maybe custom Villager. Even then Pac-Man has the threat of having a Bell in hand. Along with being a five frame kill confirm, It has a really big intimidation factor going for it, which can make some play their approaches sub-optimally out of fear.

Anyway, imo he makes up for lack of KO power by having one of the highest damage outputs in the entire game. The numbers on Nair/Fair/Bair are above average given their speeds and ability to link into each other consistently starting at mid percents. 13 damage from the hydrant, 18 from a single Galaga throw, and then you have his typical bnbs doing anywhere 15-20. It's alot of damage, and It isn't that hard for him to get when he excels at forcing you into picking really risky options (blitz approaches, rolls, spot dodges and some in cases shield), or at best he keeps you in shield long enough to put up another wall.

He's way too good at stalling games, he doesn't have anything in his kit that warrants not having a single good match-up (What does Mii Gunner lack to make it our only winning mu?). There's probably a handful of characters outside of the typical top tiers that have concrete answers to some of his best options, Shiek/ZSS being able to get big damage/kill confirms after getting up-B'd until high percents for example.

 

[PEPESPAIN]

Haha, oh wow. Suddenly everyone is bashing me for my opinions just because I don't have a similar opinion like you. Hurray?


If scribbeling this thread because of someone else's opinion about PAC-MAN's matchups and if that said person is allowed (in this thread) to explain why he/she thinks PAC-MAN only has one advantageous matchup in a thread where PAC-MAN mains should just post their ratios about PAC-MAN's matchup spread and thus not care what other submits, then I can do a brief review of why I hold my opinion:

Simply put, the game (and thus the metagame) is very young - characters are being explored, the game's mechanics are being explored and the general matchup knowledge is far from "completed". I think many people don't understand the PAC-MAN matchup and thus the PAC-MAN mains have it easier winning matches, which could lead to people believing PAC-MAN is a better character than he really is, and same goes for his matchup ratios. (Deciding matchups so early in a metagame will not have accurate ratios.)

I believe PAC-MAN does not benefit from the game's mechanics at all, especially compared to other characters like Captain Falcon, Link and Mario. There is no true edge hogging in this game (meaning as soon as a character can reach the ledge, it won't get gimped), the engine and physiques don't allow for consistent comboing and stringing, the shields (and the exaggerated defensive mechanics for that matter) make it ever-important to have a useful and viable grab, and then we have the other bull**** mechanics like rage effect that makes it extremely unfair for lightweights, weak characters and those who struggles a lot to score the KO vs. those who don't. This leads me to the "philosophy" that the only things you really need to be viable in this game are a decent grab (or whatever that deals with shields well) that can punish shields well while having safe moves/attributes along with good KO abilities, meaning the rest isn't "as important". What I mean by this is that it doesn't really matter if you have a "bad" recovery since as long as you reach the ledge, you're safe, meaning that it is the best weakness you can have in this game (as opposed to Melee/Brawl). There are a select few characters that really struggles in the KOing department, and PAC-MAN is one of them (I have discussed this before). Some characters will just kill "sooner or later" (like Lucina, Sheik and Captain Falcon) while others (like PAC-MAN) really have to get past all the defensive stuff first before being able to setup a KO and even then the KO might not be strong enough to secure the KO anyway. (Hope you get my general point of this.)

As you can see, PAC-MAN can't really punish shields (even though he has several ways to break one; however, this requires the right conditions and some setup for it to work and even then the opponent will be wary of this anyway) and he can't really KO well.

In Brawl, however, that would be another story - he would have great combos and strings, the edge-guarding system would be more rewarding towards him (since he has a great recovery and several gimp options) and he also wouldn't be completely screwed by rage. That would kind of make up for his weaknesses. Then it wouldn't be >that bad< if he struggled to KO since he now has a great edge-guarding strategy and good comboing/stringing ability that would make up for his KO weakness. Then I would believe that he would have more advantageous matchups and be a better character overall. But this isn't Brawl, this is Smash 4, which relies less on gimps and damage racking and more on "brute force", especially á la rage.

Matchup ratios will change, and in the future all of us will have different views on certain matchups and matchup ratios. I am 100 % certain of this. So don't get all caught up in matchup ratios, since they will differ in the future. Maybe next year I will have more + in my matchup list and you more -. Who knows.

Just wanted to say that I can advance my thoughts about this "philosophy" of mine further and give more details and examples, but I feel done with this since I said I would be brief. Now you've heard my opinion since you asked for it.

(But sheesh, everyone loses their mind about something opinion-based. It's ridiculous. What's even more ridiculous is that some of you want to rip me off my right to submit my own personalized opinion-based matchup ratio list just because you disagree with it and think it will make this project unsuccessful. It's okay to disagree, but to actually wanting to strip off someone's right to submit an opinion-based list just because oneself heavily disagrees with it? Seriously?)



Very mature. Others should be bashed too...? Good heavens.

I don't agree with you. You are saying something that everyone knows it is not real. PAC-MAN has advantadge at least against rush characters (Sonic, captain falcon, bowser...) if you don't feel like that , you are not playing the character correctly.

Trampoline > Shield
Fair to Key -> Best kill confirm ever.

Can you show me a replay playing pacman? I want to see you playing and understand why do you think like that.

 

[verbatim]

If at all possible could we talk about Captain Falcon, I've gotten pretty good at playing against rushdown characters (or at least Sheik , Pikachu, and MK) while playing as Pacman but I struggle against him a lot. I think a majority of this stems from my over dependence on hydrant and the fact that I spend too much time floating around in the air, meaning he can rush in and uair me fairly simply, and that a more grounded/trampoline heavy game would be the way to go, but I'm always worried about his 50/50 dash attack/dash grab.

 

[Splebel]

If at all possible could we talk about Captain Falcon, I've gotten pretty good at playing against rushdown characters (or at least Sheik , Pikachu, and MK) while playing as Pacman but I struggle against him a lot. I think a majority of this stems from my over dependence on hydrant and the fact that I spend too much time floating around in the air, meaning he can rush in and uair me fairly simply, and that a more grounded/trampoline heavy game would be the way to go, but I'm always worried about his 50/50 dash attack/dash grab.

Was this meant to go here or in the Matchup thread?

 

[verbatim]

Here, I can move it over though.

 

[Incoleo]

Hey pac-mains!! Here's your voting totals :D (also, don't be too hard on xzx, your thread had enough votes that it didn't really make that big of a difference)
Zareidriel


////////////******

Bowser --+++++--

Bowser Jr =++++++=+

Captain Falcon --++=++-+

Charizard +-+++++=+

Diddy Kong +=+=++=--

Donkey Kong --+++++-+

Duck Hunt +===+=+==

Falco ----===-+

Fox -=---=--+

Mr. Game & Watch ==+++++=+

Ganondorf --+++++=+

Greninja ==++----+

Ike ==++==+-+

Jigglypuff ==+++++-+

King Dedede +++++++==

Kirby +=+++++=+

Link +===+-=-=

Little Mac +++++++=+

Lucario ---=++--=

Luigi +=+=++-=+

Mario ----=----

Dr. Mario =-=-+-=-=

Marth +-+++++-+

Lucina +-+++++-+

Metaknight +=+=====+

Ness +--=+++-=

Olimar +===+++=+

Palutena +=+==-+=-

Pikachu +=--==--=

Pit & Dark Pit +=+====-=

Peach ==+=++=-=

Zelda ==+++++=+

R.O.B. ==-==--=-

Robin +-=====-+

Rosalina =-=-++--=

Samus =-++=-===

Sheik ---------

Shulk +=-===+=+

Toon Link ===-++===

Villager --=-++--+

Wario -=-=--=-=

Wii Fit Trainer ==++==+=+

Yoshi -=-====-=

Zero Suit Samus -=-=----+

Megaman ==+=++=-=

Pacman =========

Sonic +-=-++---

Ryu -=+=+=--+

Roy ---=+++-+

Mewtwo ==+==++=+

Lucas =--==+=-=

Brawler +=+++++-+

Swordfighter ==+++++=+

Gunner +=+=+++++

******//////////

 

[xzx]

Yeah, and everyone thought that I would make this thing unsuccessful by somehow believing that my votes would weigh more...

Ugh, and now everyone will REALLY think that PAC-MAN is high tier while he in fact is middle tier.

Bothers me a lot. (Sorry, but I had to slip this off my mind...)

 

[PEPESPAIN]

PACMAN is not mid tier, Pacman is high.

 

[xzx]

PACMAN is not mid tier, Pacman is high.

Well, I heavily disagree, but I guess I have to respect your opinion. He has too many flawed Matchups to be a high tier. In Brawl or Melee, he would be high tier though. But not in Trash 4.

 

[Froggy]

Too bad I never found that the time to vote.

 

[ZeoLightning]

Yeah, and everyone thought that I would make this thing unsuccessful by somehow believing that my votes would weigh more...

Ugh, and now everyone will REALLY think that PAC-MAN is high tier while he in fact is middle tier.

Bothers me a lot. (Sorry, but I had to slip this off my mind...)

you make it sound like its wrong to have an opinion different from yours, Abadango's work with PAC shows how good he really is, his placings with the character are indicative of how he ranks among tiers, PAC man has so many good tools he couldnt possibly be considered a mid tier. he only majorly has trouble with certain top tiers, mainly mario and rosa

also PLEASE refrain from calling smash 4 Trash 4. I understand if you dont like the game, but the fact this insult is even a thing is stupid and very disrespectful

 

[dragontamer]

But not in Trash 4.

Temporary Warning assigned. Infraction for trolling.

If you want to discuss this warning, please do so in the dedicated topic. Otherwise, I don't want to see this kind of behavior in my area.

 

[PEPESPAIN]

Well, I heavily disagree, but I guess I have to respect your opinion. He has too many flawed Matchups to be a high tier. In Brawl or Melee, he would be high tier though. But not in ***** 4.

PACMAN can deal with every character, we only need to learn to play every MU. Everyone on this thread had a lot of problems playing against Rosalina and Sonic and I showed how to play against them, because I played a LOT of hours those MUs.

Some said here how to play against Mario, I lost every match against high level Marios since I start doing the "No neutral" Strategy. Now , I start to win them.

We need to understand how to play against all our flawed Matchups. We have the tools, we only need how to use them.


PS: Fair to key combo gave me the 50% of this

 

[xzx]

you make it sound like its wrong to have an opinion different from yours, Abadango's work with PAC shows how good he really is, his placings with the character are indicative of how he ranks among tiers, PAC man has so many good tools he couldnt possibly be considered a mid tier. he only majorly has trouble with certain top tiers, mainly mario and rosa

also PLEASE refrain from calling smash 4 Trash 4. I understand if you dont like the game, but the fact this insult is even a thing is stupid and very disrespectful

Huh, I feel the same. All of you who disagree with me make it sound like I can't have my own opinions about PAC-MAN that I currently have, just because I think he is not viable. Please, just look at when I posted my matchup ratios in this thread, how everyone went willy-nilly about that, especially you (yeah, you!), Pacman9, PEPESPAIN and Zage. Just look at what you and those guys wrote. Seriously, look it up, it's in this very thread! And you think that I am the one who make it sound like having a different opinion from mine is wrong. Heck, note what I wrote to PEPESPAIN: "Well, I heavily disagree [with you], but I guess I have to respect your opinion." I disagreed with him, but I respected his opinion. If something at all, YOU (guys) are the ones being mean to me. But I don't really care, as I respect your opinions about not agreeing with me. It's perfectly fine! Seriously, it is! Now, moving on...

It's easy for you to say that, especially when the metagame is so young. Just look at what happened to Melee Mario over the course of Melee's metagame. Same with Brawl R.O.B. Just throwing out two examples. They sunk from top tier and later, high tier. I'm not here to say that PAC-MAN cannot climb to high tier over the course of the meta (especially when patches can change things around), but knowing that a lot of people don't really know the matchup + PAC-MAN being an inconsistent character, I feel like he'll never reach high tier and will be stuck in middle tier forever. But the best way to determine this is to simply wait many years and see how it really becomes. Of course, I could be totally wrong. And fixes + buffs to PAC-MAN and/or changes to the core engine of Smash 4 could really bring PAC-MAN up to high tier, but as the (meta)game is now and how PAC-MAN's stats are now, I highly doubt it, as his flaws are heavily engine core-wise.

(Calling Smash 4 "Trash 4" is just an honest opinion of mine. It wasn't even meant to be an insult, less being meant as trolling. However, this "issue" is being worked on between me and dragontamer, so I won't respond to any matters regarding this.)

Oh, and while I'm at it, I'm not here to cause any uproars, flamewars or trolling. I am here to discuss + express my opinions, something you all do. It is not my intention to insult anybody. There are forums for a reason... (Well, other than containing information.)

Thanks for reading.

 

[ZeoLightning]

Huh, I feel the same. All of you who disagree with me make it sound like I can't have my own opinions about PAC-MAN that I currently have, just because I think he is not viable. Please, just look at when I posted my matchup ratios in this thread, how everyone went willy-nilly about that, especially you (yeah, you!), Pacman9, PEPESPAIN and Zage. Just look at what you and those guys wrote. Seriously, look it up, it's in this very thread! And you think that I am the one who make it sound like having a different opinion from mine is wrong. Heck, note what I wrote to PEPESPAIN: "Well, I heavily disagree [with you], but I guess I have to respect your opinion." I disagreed with him, but I respected his opinion. If something at all, YOU (guys) are the ones being mean to me. But I don't really care, as I respect your opinions about not agreeing with me. It's perfectly fine! Seriously, it is! Now, moving on...

It's easy for you to say that, especially when the metagame is so young. Just look at what happened to Melee Mario over the course of Melee's metagame. Same with Brawl R.O.B. Just throwing out two examples. They sunk from top tier and later, high tier. I'm not here to say that PAC-MAN cannot climb to high tier over the course of the meta (especially when patches can change things around), but knowing that a lot of people don't really know the matchup + PAC-MAN being an inconsistent character, I feel like he'll never reach high tier and will be stuck in middle tier forever. But the best way to determine this is to simply wait many years and see how it really becomes. Of course, I could be totally wrong. And fixes + buffs to PAC-MAN and/or changes to the core engine of Smash 4 could really bring PAC-MAN up to high tier, but as the (meta)game is now and how PAC-MAN's stats are now, I highly doubt it, as his flaws are heavily engine core-wise.

(Calling Smash 4 "Trash 4" is just an honest opinion of mine. It wasn't even meant to be an insult, less being meant as trolling. However, this "issue" is being worked on between me and dragontamer, so I won't respond to any matters regarding this.)

Oh, and while I'm at it, I'm not here to cause any uproars, flamewars or trolling. I am here to discuss + express my opinions, something you all do. It is not my intention to insult anybody. There are forums for a reason... (Well, other than containing information.)

Thanks for reading.

i'll apologize for coming off mean if i did when i responded to your matchup spread. i should have said stated my disagreement in a more respectful manor, maybe you've had a different experience but from my time invested and the results i've seen, PAC is not that negative on matchups. I'll just say that i heavily disagree with that as you have said yourself. I also respect your opinion, even if i dont agree with it. not to go off on a tangent for being mean but you made it sound as if were misguided on our thought process to "REALLY" believe he's a high tier when you see him as mid tier. if you think he's mid tier thats all right but it bothers me the way you worded that. im sue you didnt mean it that way so im not gonna mention anything else about it, we can move on

PAC man has flaws but he also has great tools. knowing the matchup is a great tool for PAC-MAN, but being a good PAC-MAN requires being very cunning with your actions and knowing how to use them. liek you said the best thing is to wait and see how PAC progresses through time, but Smash 4 isnt as unbalanced as brawl or melee. alot of characters can be viable even if they didnt appear to b, look how nairo took Dr. Mario who everyone thought was bad and beat Esam. no match is unwinnable, and with all the tools and tricks has at PAC's disposal despite his flaws he's still well deserving of being high tier.

I wont touch upon this as you said you're settling it with dragon tamer, but i will say (and this is kettle calling pot black which i apologize for) you should know when an opinion will sound disrespectful even if its honest. there are better ways to convey feelings and once again i apologize for earlier. this is indeed a thread to spread info and opinions so we should all be respectful.

 

[PEPESPAIN]

Huh, I feel the same. All of you who disagree with me make it sound like I can't have my own opinions about PAC-MAN that I currently have, just because I think he is not viable. Please, just look at when I posted my matchup ratios in this thread, how everyone went willy-nilly about that, especially you (yeah, you!), Pacman9, PEPESPAIN and Zage. Just look at what you and those guys wrote. Seriously, look it up, it's in this very thread! And you think that I am the one who make it sound like having a different opinion from mine is wrong. Heck, note what I wrote to PEPESPAIN: "Well, I heavily disagree [with you], but I guess I have to respect your opinion." I disagreed with him, but I respected his opinion. If something at all, YOU (guys) are the ones being mean to me. But I don't really care, as I respect your opinions about not agreeing with me. It's perfectly fine! Seriously, it is! Now, moving on...

It's easy for you to say that, especially when the metagame is so young. Just look at what happened to Melee Mario over the course of Melee's metagame. Same with Brawl R.O.B. Just throwing out two examples. They sunk from top tier and later, high tier. I'm not here to say that PAC-MAN cannot climb to high tier over the course of the meta (especially when patches can change things around), but knowing that a lot of people don't really know the matchup + PAC-MAN being an inconsistent character, I feel like he'll never reach high tier and will be stuck in middle tier forever. But the best way to determine this is to simply wait many years and see how it really becomes. Of course, I could be totally wrong. And fixes + buffs to PAC-MAN and/or changes to the core engine of Smash 4 could really bring PAC-MAN up to high tier, but as the (meta)game is now and how PAC-MAN's stats are now, I highly doubt it, as his flaws are heavily engine core-wise.

(Calling Smash 4 "Trash 4" is just an honest opinion of mine. It wasn't even meant to be an insult, less being meant as trolling. However, this "issue" is being worked on between me and dragontamer, so I won't respond to any matters regarding this.)

Oh, and while I'm at it, I'm not here to cause any uproars, flamewars or trolling. I am here to discuss + express my opinions, something you all do. It is not my intention to insult anybody. There are forums for a reason... (Well, other than containing information.)

Thanks for reading.

"but knowing that a lot of people don't really know the matchup " you can know the MU perfectly and you can't avoid this true combos:

Spoiler: True Combos

Fair to Key -> It works around 108% - 130%
JC Glide toss Dthrow Cherry -> 95 - 120%

They are Killing setups. True combo, YES, TRUE COMBO. Well performed, you can't avoid this.

I respect your opinion, but you are not right because you said that pac-man has a lot of problems with a lot of MU's and that's not true. I showed my matches against one of the best spanish players and I think that PAC-MAN can do it. I proved it with a lot of replays. We only need to improve our MASTER-PAC-PLAN on every match.

 

[xzx]

"but knowing that a lot of people don't really know the matchup " you can know the MU perfectly and you can't avoid this true combos:

Spoiler: True Combos

Fair to Key -> It works around 108% - 130%
JC Glide toss Dthrow Cherry -> 95 - 120%

They are Killing setups. True combo, YES, TRUE COMBO. Well performed, you can't avoid this.

I respect your opinion, but you are not right because you said that pac-man has a lot of problems with a lot of MU's and that's not true. I showed my matches against one of the best spanish players and I think that PAC-MAN can do it. I proved it with a lot of replays. We only need to improve our MASTER-PAC-PLAN on every match.

JC Glide toss D-throw Cherry -> 95% - 120%. To what?

No offense to you, but I don't buy one PAC-MAN beating his best players to prove anything. It's great of course, but abadango has switched his main to Meta Knight. If PAC-MAN really was that good (as you make it sound) why would he have done that? Because I think that if PAC-MAN really was high tier then abadango would not have switched mains. For me it sounds like PAC-MAN wasn't good enough for him, so he had to find a new main. (But I don't know for sure why he switched mains, so what I say is only assumptions.) Can't really blame him though. He is/was (among) the best PAC-MEN, right?

Then, in a video, ZeRo has stated that "if a character can't deal with shields, it's not viable" or something along the lines. "But xzx, he has duh trampolineeeee!!!" Yeah trampoline only takes you that far: resetting the situation with the opponent often having the frame advantages. I would hardly call that "beating shields". It only resets the situation. Too bad PAC-MAN has a horrible grab... Yes, he can break shields but good luck getting the key in hand consistently.

PAC-MAN is hardly a dominating and consistent character (leading to underwhelming MUs) and that is why I think he is not viable in the long run. I'm sorry guys.

 

[verbatim]

Could you please stop doing that, it's been established that your opinions on the character are very unorthodox and not representative of his position in the international metagame.

 

[Splebel]

JC Glide toss D-throw Cherry -> 95% - 120%. To what?

No offense to you, but I don't buy one PAC-MAN beating his best players to prove anything. It's great of course, but abadango has switched his main to Meta Knight. If PAC-MAN really was that good (as you make it sound) why would he have done that? Because I think that if PAC-MAN really was high tier then abadango would not have switched mains. For me it sounds like PAC-MAN wasn't good enough for him, so he had to find a new main. (But I don't know for sure why he switched mains, so what I say is only assumptions.) Can't really blame him though. He is/was (among) the best PAC-MEN, right?

Then, in a video, ZeRo has stated that "if a character can't deal with shields, it's not viable" or something along the lines. "But xzx, he has duh trampolineeeee!!!" Yeah trampoline only takes you that far: resetting the situation with the opponent often having the frame advantages. I would hardly call that "beating shields". It only resets the situation. Too bad PAC-MAN has a horrible grab... Yes, he can break shields but good luck getting the key in hand consistently.

PAC-MAN is hardly a dominating and consistent character (leading to underwhelming MUs) and that is why I think he is not viable in the long run. I'm sorry guys.

First off, Zero isn't the end all be all of Pac-Man viability. Maybe Abadango decided that Pac-Man isn't a good fit for him. Nu~ is always switching off of Pac-Man. Dtilt seems like a good option against shields but needs to be tested further. Although it isn't the same a combo throw.

I personally think Pac-Man is the most consistant character because most of main moves don't factor rage in, fruits, trampoline bounces, pellet healing, plus his moves that do scale with rage do so poorly so it isn't noticable. I'm not saying Pac-Man is the best character nor does he not have flaws. He does benefit from matchup inexperience but even if everyone knows not to fall for his traps he can still have the advantage. I make the traps and have the time I don't even plan them out before hand, the oppurtunity just presents itself. Pac-Man also probably has one of the best evasive games in Smash 4. He can out maneuver any setup and camp out anyone if he needs to. Pac-Man can time people out instead of beating people's shields if he has the lead. I don't really know how to end this but you aren't giving Pac-Man enough credit.