Matchup Thread Export: Olimar

[dawall250]

could someone pm me this? i totally missed out while i was swimming =(

 

[CRASHiC]

If anyone needs it but doesn't have an AIB account or doesn't go there anymore, hit me up on a profile message. I'll get you it.

 

[Fino]

The whistle takes as long as the ftilt so they can't punish you, I had an olimar try that. They get a good 30-40% on you on the approach, plus anything else they latch on you. They still get damage on you fast but they have trouble KOing especially since they can't get inside the ftilt without rolling.

I lol'd

You know, an un-charged purple usmash can kill DDD in the 90s (assuming fresh and moderate DI iirc). Not to mention olimar's other various killing moves.... he's a power house.
Also, I think you're making the assumption that olimar can't punish ftilt, which I also find a bit humorous.


~Fino

 

[CRASHiC]

I lol'd

You know, an un-charged purple usmash can kill DDD in the 90s (assuming fresh and moderate DI iirc). Not to mention olimar's other various killing moves.... he's a power house.
Also, I think you're making the assumption that olimar can't punish ftilt, which I also find a bit humorous.


~Fino

The argument is that with his approach to the matchup, you will never have the opportunity too.

 

[Fino]

The argument is that with his approach to the matchup, you will never have the opportunity too.

I didn't see any type of strategy or form of wall text that he posted (apparently it's some scandal secret that no one can know about - forgetting the fact that it should be included in MU discussions so one day when a DDD tries to use this strategy they don't come crying and say it was countered)... so I'll assume we're talking about the ftilt here...
So... lemme get this straight, olimar can't kill because DDD can use a punishable move?
Perhaps I'm still not getting it. lol.


~Fino

 

[CRASHiC]

Explain further, how can you punish a spaced timed forward tilt. (not doubting, asking for explanation)

 

[Fino]

Explain further, how can you punish a spaced timed forward tilt. (not doubting, asking for explanation)

Frame data would help explain various options better, but I can't seem to find anything incredibly accurate here.
For one, an easy way is to just jump over it and nair (which sets-up that usmash kill I might add). I understand ftilt is an advantageous move to use against olimar ^^; I'm just saying, it's not a game changing.
How many times are you going to be able to perfectly space an ftilt before it gets punished ya know?


~Fino

 

[CRASHiC]

When that happens, we switch to Seibrik's plan.

OLI:
One simple thing that throws this matchup into ddd's favor, though slightly, is inhale.
It beats 80% of oli's move set, including run up grab (lol) and sometimes pivot grab depending on ur placement and which pikmen it is. It's also a really good edgeguard solution to Oli's down B, throw off stage, turn and prepare to bair, if the oli jumps at all, than tries to time down b for ur bair, DDD can just reverse inhale instead (land on stage) walk off, (provided oli isn't mashing out fast) and spit semi-low (or higher depending on amount of pikmen) Oli (though ddd landed) does not get his jump back and depending on how low you got, most likely wont reach the edge with up-b even with full pikmen.
anything close range get's beat by grab, d-throw tech chase is easiest in the game, and he dies early.

Nair/utilt do a good job of breaking off multiple pikmen attatched to you in one to two hits, and as for an approach treat it like IC's. Bair approach (if they side b'd u alot nair some on the way or ignore) then once close dair shield/inhale ALOT (beats 80% of the **** oli can do at this point) and his roll is so bad he sometimes can't get away even if he were to predict it.

 

[SuSa]

Nair to usmash isn't guarenteed.

At least, it isn't on Snake.

I SDI that **** down and shield, then punish you for thinking you can usmash me.

 

[AtotheZ]

Don't we as dededes have the ability to dair camp olimar too?

 

[Fino]

Note that when you're killing pikmin, you decay that move. IMO nair would be your best bet since you don't want to stale that utilt ^^; Also, and I could be wrong, but bair approaches can be grabbed (if too low to the ground), usmashed /uair (if high), and fsmash (if above the ground at the point where olie cannot grab). However, I will admit if you can throw out a bair 45 degrees from olimar, his only option is to pivot grab, upB, or shield... and most will not react quick enough to either (if done correctly by the DDD player).

I wouldn't recommend a dair approach though... I could be awfully wrong, but... isn't DDD rather slow in the air. An olimar main isn't going to just sit and camp until DDD is directly above him @.@ His dair can also be pivot grabbed if being used aggressively. DDD's dair DOES have the priority, but the applicability of it in this situation seems minimal =-/

As for inhale... I've never seen it used offensively off stage, so it would be interesting to test that out. In my mind, I don't see it going well for olimar, and his best option at that point is to FF a uair under DDD and hope that doing that doesn't put him out of tether range. Either way it looks bad.
As for on stage use, you have better mind game the olimar into it. I know as soon as I see DDD's mouth open I start tossing pikmin, whether they be wise sideB or with fsmashes. DDD's inhale will inhale the hitbox of the pikmin directly too him (on all smashes). The force of suction isn't quite quick enough to react to, unless at point blank... even then... if I recall, it doesn't suck you in if you're shielding right? @.@ I forget.
I see a lot of potential uses in terms of mindgames, but if the olimar has any time to predict it, it's a free c-stick (in any direction depending on how it's spaced) for olimar.

I don't doubt that what sebrik said doesn't work, I'm just a little skeptical I suppose. The off-stage inhale does sound scary though ._.


~Fino


EDIT:

Nair to usmash isn't guarenteed.

At least, it isn't on Snake.

I SDI that **** down and shield, then punish you for thinking you can usmash me.

Hence why I said set-up ^^; also, if I see you pop out... that usmash turns into a grab (which works out nicely since you're shielding :D)

Don't we as dededes have the ability to dair camp olimar too?

uhh..... lol

 

[CRASHiC]

back air camping is an incredibly quick move with little ending lag. Once we are above you, we won't be bair anymore, we will be down airing. If you stay in shield after down air, free mix up into inhale. While approaching we can also b reversal inhale to make you think we are bairing again.
Because it has grab properties, inhale will pull you through your shield.

 

[TlocCPU]

I didn't see any type of strategy or form of wall text that he posted (apparently it's some scandal secret that no one can know about - forgetting the fact that it should be included in MU discussions so one day when a DDD tries to use this strategy they don't come crying and say it was countered)... so I'll assume we're talking about the ftilt here...
So... lemme get this straight, olimar can't kill because DDD can use a punishable move?
Perhaps I'm still not getting it. lol.


~Fino

I posted a big long strategy then deleted the post, that's why you don't get it. Olimar has trouble KOing dedede for the same reason game and watch does. Yes your upsmash is strong, but can you land that upsmash against me? Good luck.

Note that when you're killing pikmin, you decay that move. IMO nair would be your best bet since you don't want to stale that utilt ^^; Also, and I could be wrong, but bair approaches can be grabbed (if too low to the ground), usmashed /uair (if high), and fsmash (if above the ground at the point where olie cannot grab). However, I will admit if you can throw out a bair 45 degrees from olimar, his only option is to pivot grab, upB, or shield... and most will not react quick enough to either (if done correctly by the DDD player).

I wouldn't recommend a dair approach though... I could be awfully wrong, but... isn't DDD rather slow in the air. An olimar main isn't going to just sit and camp until DDD is directly above him @.@ His dair can also be pivot grabbed if being used aggressively. DDD's dair DOES have the priority, but the applicability of it in this situation seems minimal =-/

As for inhale... I've never seen it used offensively off stage, so it would be interesting to test that out. In my mind, I don't see it going well for olimar, and his best option at that point is to FF a uair under DDD and hope that doing that doesn't put him out of tether range. Either way it looks bad.
As for on stage use, you have better mind game the olimar into it. I know as soon as I see DDD's mouth open I start tossing pikmin, whether they be wise sideB or with fsmashes. DDD's inhale will inhale the hitbox of the pikmin directly too him (on all smashes). The force of suction isn't quite quick enough to react to, unless at point blank... even then... if I recall, it doesn't suck you in if you're shielding right? @.@ I forget.
I see a lot of potential uses in terms of mindgames, but if the olimar has any time to predict it, it's a free c-stick (in any direction depending on how it's spaced) for olimar.

I don't doubt that what sebrik said doesn't work, I'm just a little skeptical I suppose. The off-stage inhale does sound scary though ._.


~Fino


EDIT:

Hence why I said set-up ^^; also, if I see you pop out... that usmash turns into a grab (which works out nicely since you're shielding :D)

uhh..... lol

Thanks for explaining the reasons why the typical dedede approach to this matchup doesn't work, but my strategy is pretty flawless.

 

[Gates]

For anyone who hasn't seen it, CPU's strategy (along with an excerpt from one of Seibrik's posts) is in the OP.

 

[Commander_Beef]

Don't overdo it ComPUter...

 

[Fino]

back air camping is an incredibly quick move with little ending lag. Once we are above you, we won't be bair anymore, we will be down airing. If you stay in shield after down air, free mix up into inhale. While approaching we can also b reversal inhale to make you think we are bairing again.
Because it has grab properties, inhale will pull you through your shield.

I'll take your word for the dair shield pressure to inhale, but are you sure dair cannot be shield grabbed? I assume you're landing with it, otherwise DDD can be usmash'd.
The b-reversal inhale sounds sneaky. The fsmash solution to bair approaches would beat out the inhale, but it's obviously can be easy to avoid if you see it coming. I want to see that one in action before I say anything else about it =]

I posted a big long strategy then deleted the post, that's why you don't get it. Olimar has trouble KOing dedede for the same reason game and watch does. Yes your upsmash is strong, but can you land that upsmash against me? Good luck.

Ahh, I would've enjoyed reading it I'm sure Also all I'm hearing is MM :D If I ever met you in tournament I would MM for $5, with a $3 side bet (per game) that I will usmash ko you twice... if I'm feeling really dicey I might make a limitation of a % at which I would have to kill you under, but perhaps more familiarity with this tactic of yours (that I don't know about) would be good before adding on that limitation.
It would be a best out of 5, so assuming that you play super-pro in the oli MU (like you claim) and it goes to game 5, that's an extra $15 on the line .


~Fino

 

[AtotheZ]

I'm sorry but, I know olimar can deal with dair, but its not very punishable at all if you space it right, especially if you have platforms. Its something to add to dededes game vs olimar. I can see olimars up b giving this a problem, though.

 

[Gates]

Ahh, I would've enjoyed reading it I'm sure Also all I'm hearing is MM :D If I ever met you in tournament I would MM for $5, with a $3 side bet (per game) that I will usmash ko you twice... if I'm feeling really dicey I might make a limitation of a % at which I would have to kill you under, but perhaps more familiarity with this tactic of yours (that I don't know about) would be good before adding on that limitation.
It would be a best out of 5, so assuming that you play super-pro in the oli MU (like you claim) and it goes to game 5, that's an extra $15 on the line .


~Fino

I would like to see this very much.

 

[Commander_Beef]

I'm sorry but, I know olimar can deal with dair, but its not very punishable at all if you space it right, especially if you have platforms. Its something to add to dededes game vs olimar. I can see olimars up b giving this a problem, though.

They're not going to do their upB on the ground bro. It's got too much ending lag and if they shorthop it, it won't work and it won't beat our shorthop down air because the timing will be off every time for them.

 

[AtotheZ]

They're not going to do their upB on the ground bro. It's got too much ending lag and if they shorthop it, it won't work and it won't beat our shorthop down air because the timing will be off every time for them.

I'm just theorycrafting here, bear with me. I haven't faced an olimar other than one of my friends who plays, which was quite a while ago.

 

[TlocCPU]

I'll take your word for the dair shield pressure to inhale, but are you sure dair cannot be shield grabbed? I assume you're landing with it, otherwise DDD can be usmash'd.
The b-reversal inhale sounds sneaky. The fsmash solution to bair approaches would beat out the inhale, but it's obviously can be easy to avoid if you see it coming. I want to see that one in action before I say anything else about it =]


Ahh, I would've enjoyed reading it I'm sure Also all I'm hearing is MM :D If I ever met you in tournament I would MM for $5, with a $3 side bet (per game) that I will usmash ko you twice... if I'm feeling really dicey I might make a limitation of a % at which I would have to kill you under, but perhaps more familiarity with this tactic of yours (that I don't know about) would be good before adding on that limitation.
It would be a best out of 5, so assuming that you play super-pro in the oli MU (like you claim) and it goes to game 5, that's an extra $15 on the line .


~Fino

I'm down
In a friendly kind of way

 

[Fino]

I'm sorry but, I know olimar can deal with dair, but its not very punishable at all if you space it right, especially if you have platforms. Its something to add to dededes game vs olimar. I can see olimars up b giving this a problem, though.

I wish I had more experience with DDD's dair, I don't see it very often unless I'm trying to uair juggle him =-/
Does it auto-cancel, how much lag DOES it have, how to platforms help.... WHERE THE HECK IS THE FRAME DATA @.@ I'm having trouble believing DDD's down-air is 8 frames... in fact, I downright refuse to believe that. lol. According to your own frame data, DDD would be 1 frame shy of being able to down-air 4 times (assuming frame perfect) during his own aerial dodge!!! XD please someone test this, I'm sure it will be a godsend to everyone and help you guys figure out fun stuff to do ^^;
As for upB

They're not going to do their upB on the ground bro. It's got too much ending lag and if they shorthop it, it won't work and it won't beat our shorthop down air because the timing will be off every time for them.

^^^this
Grounded upB's is like asking for punishment, and SH'ing it offensively close range is rather absurd to try, so it's good we understand it's an option, but not applicable at all. lol.

I would like to see this very much.

I would like to do that very much =]

The Approach:
The number one reason Dedede is believed to lose this matchup is the amount of damage you take and level of difficulty it is to approach olimar. Me and fiction have derived a solid way to approach olimar. First and most importantly, you need to establish the mindset that the pikmin are not real(except purple). Ignore all pikmin that are thrown at you. Don't shield them, don't try to get them off of you, not even the whites. Run right through them and go to olimar. Take note of how many purples he has and where they are in the lineup! This is absolutely essential. You need to powershield the purples like you would falco's laser.

Valuable advice, just make sure you're not taking gobs of damage.

Now that you've gotten to olimar, you can notice that he has 2 or less pikmin because they are all on your body.

Wait, even in your own assumption I hit you with that many... by the time you reach olimar (calculating for average pikmin damage per latch), you've already taken like 30-40% @.@

Stop JUST outside of olimar's grab range. Most olimars will either dash grab or pivot grab at this point.

or fsmash, or retreat and throw more pikmin (if you want to have 6 on that large sexy penguin body of yours... by all means I'll toss more :D). Umm, also approaching with aerials, but that's a risk... aerial = shield grab -> DDD profit.

When you get into the range I mentioned, throw out an ftilt. This will stop a dash grab or a standing grab and even an fsmash.

And you punish the fsmash with....? O.o I read ahead, don't worry... I just failed to see the follow-up / counter tactic here. Also... your ftilt doesn't knock off all the pikmin... I mean, if you REALLY want to put yourself into kill range just to land one ftilt I'll take your money now :D

If olimar pivot grabs take a few steps forward and start spamming that ftilt.

and then get punished... I'll continue reading though

At this point olimar is in a very difficult situation. He can either roll around you or try to jump over you.

or run away and throw more pikmin... unless he's at the edge... then he can grab it.

The best thing to do is expect the roll because it's harder to react to than the jump.

I would jump and either dair or nair... olimar's roll is terribad, which I think you bring light to later (i forget already).

If he rolls turn around and grab him and then backthrow him, you are now in a gimping opportunity.

Okay, so clearly you are assuming that there is lots of stage for olimar, since a bthrow puts him off stage for a gimp. I'm still missing the part where you're still taking damage, and I'm running away and throwing more pikmin. Assume I make the pity-poor mistake of rolling into your grab... you HAVE to be well into 60-80% by now. Again, I'll gladly accept this tactic if that's the outcome, lol. You're assuming gimps about as much as I'm assuming usmash kills it seems. lol.

If he jumps, he's either going to try to jump all the way over you

wait... we're we at the edge? WHY THE **** WOULD I JUMP TOWARDS THE EDGE? lol - doesn't olimar get like super gimped or something? oh wait... maybe we're at the part where olimar has his back to the edge after latching 6 pikmin and DDD taking 80%+ *smirk* lolwut?

or he's going to attack your shield. If he attacks your shield with anything but nair, ftilt out of shield and repeat the process I just described. If he jumps clear over you follow him and wait for him to land. Try to grab or begin spacing your ftilt again.

What do you do if he does a nair O.o? shield grab? that's my only thought. It has the potential to shield poke though, and landing behind you with a nair on shield is a lot safer, but still shield grab-able ^^;

Olimar has absolutely NO safe options when you're close to him, and this makes the match very fun.

The words MM keep ringing in my hear, where do you live again? (smirk)
Sorry, that's un-called for, back to your broken tactic.

Dedede's advantage over Olimar's grab:
Olimar's grab is flawed and I completely credit fiction for figuring it out.

Olimar forums found out that olimar doesn't have grab armor first... hate to break it to you...

As of now, the only dedede's that know this are me fiction and teba, and now you. TURN YOUR VOLUME UP WHEN YOU FIGHT OLIMAR!. You know that little sound olimar makes when he grabs? You need instant tech skill reaction time to it, start practicing your reaction to that sound. You either need to spot dodge on reaction or roll around olimar on reaction. If you're closer to olimar you roll if you're farther you spot dodge. If you do it on reaction, dedede's roll is faster than the grab and his spot dodge lasts longer than the grab.

Wait, you mean to tell me... after building up all that tention and hype of DDDs ftilt, that your answer to olimar's grab ISN'T FTILT? @.@ frame data would help greatly, because I could explain better how to abuse the fact that olimar doesn't have grab armor. Yes, you can ftilt during olimar's grab animation is olimar will take the hit, and not be able to grab you.
Also, I like how you assume the grab is the only option. I'd like to see you spot dodge olimar's fsmash. Close range you can shield it and punish with [angelic tone]ftilt[/angelic] OoS. Close range (ie olimars face) olimar will probably just jab instead of fsmash, but long range the hitbox on olimar fsmash out lasts DDD's spot dodge (even assuming you dodge frame perfectly). if you get hit by the weak hitbox of fsmash, it sets-up for a grab (from 0-mid percent... debatably mid-high with bad DI)... and then it's just a massively fun grab combo from there *mouth starts to water* errr excuse me... it's getting late ^^;

Where we win the matchup, offstage:
Now is the most important part and I'm sure you're already good at it so i'll just throw out some advice. If oli recovers low your only choice it to try to bair his jump

I hear down-air is a good option. Plus with bad DI it can stage spike / hurt him in the respect.

but what we're actually hoping for is that olimar recovers high, which most do. Jump BELOW olimar and uair! Olimar CANNOT whistle the whole uair and the last hit will send him further offstage allowing you to grab the edge and end the stock.

if it were a FFd whistle could most likely float through DDD before that final hitbox gets out (only speculation). Having the frame data (again) would be wonderful, but from my memory of DDD's uair, you can aerial dodge it no? I could be completely wrong on this, so please call me out on it. I don't like thinking I'm right when I'm not <.<

Summary:
Ignore the pikmin, let them grab your body so that olimar doesn't have his weapons. Powershield the purple throw. Ftilt ftilt ftilt. The whole matchup is ftilt, it's the best move you have and it outranges every single one of olimar's moves and it kills any pikmin he tries to throw
55:45 Dedede

Summary: Many things were ignored or not considered. Olimar has various counter options. Some of this stuff was just plain wrong / lulzy. Please take 80% from pikmin toss. Some of this stuff ends up being useful, be careful when reading and don't be simple minded.

Still 60:40 - 65:35 Olimar

****, I'm way to tired... don't listen to my trash talk, I'll regret or forget it by tomorrow morning haha. Please call me out on the stuff I'm wrong with. Understanding the match-up is all we can do to progress the metagame


~Fino

 

[TlocCPU]

I wish I had more experience with DDD's dair, I don't see it very often unless I'm trying to uair juggle him =-/
Does it auto-cancel, how much lag DOES it have, how to platforms help.... WHERE THE HECK IS THE FRAME DATA @.@ I'm having trouble believing DDD's down-air is 8 frames... in fact, I downright refuse to believe that. lol. According to your own frame data, DDD would be 1 frame shy of being able to down-air 4 times (assuming frame perfect) during his own aerial dodge!!! XD please someone test this, I'm sure it will be a godsend to everyone and help you guys figure out fun stuff to do ^^;
As for upB

^^^this
Grounded upB's is like asking for punishment, and SH'ing it offensively close range is rather absurd to try, so it's good we understand it's an option, but not applicable at all. lol.


I would like to do that very much =]


Valuable advice, just make sure you're not taking gobs of damage.

Wait, even in your own assumption I hit you with that many... by the time you reach olimar (calculating for average pikmin damage per latch), you've already taken like 30-40% @.@

or fsmash, or retreat and throw more pikmin (if you want to have 6 on that large sexy penguin body of yours... by all means I'll toss more :D). Umm, also approaching with aerials, but that's a risk... aerial = shield grab -> DDD profit.

And you punish the fsmash with....? O.o I read ahead, don't worry... I just failed to see the follow-up / counter tactic here. Also... your ftilt doesn't knock off all the pikmin... I mean, if you REALLY want to put yourself into kill range just to land one ftilt I'll take your money now :D


and then get punished... I'll continue reading though

or run away and throw more pikmin... unless he's at the edge... then he can grab it.

I would jump and either dair or nair... olimar's roll is terribad, which I think you bring light to later (i forget already).


Okay, so clearly you are assuming that there is lots of stage for olimar, since a bthrow puts him off stage for a gimp. I'm still missing the part where you're still taking damage, and I'm running away and throwing more pikmin. Assume I make the pity-poor mistake of rolling into your grab... you HAVE to be well into 60-80% by now. Again, I'll gladly accept this tactic if that's the outcome, lol. You're assuming gimps about as much as I'm assuming usmash kills it seems. lol.

wait... we're we at the edge? WHY THE **** WOULD I JUMP TOWARDS THE EDGE? lol - doesn't olimar get like super gimped or something? oh wait... maybe we're at the part where olimar has his back to the edge after latching 6 pikmin and DDD taking 80%+ *smirk* lolwut?

What do you do if he does a nair O.o? shield grab? that's my only thought. It has the potential to shield poke though, and landing behind you with a nair on shield is a lot safer, but still shield grab-able ^^;

The words MM keep ringing in my hear, where do you live again? (smirk)
Sorry, that's un-called for, back to your broken tactic.

Olimar forums found out that olimar doesn't have grab armor first... hate to break it to you...

Wait, you mean to tell me... after building up all that tention and hype of DDDs ftilt, that your answer to olimar's grab ISN'T FTILT? @.@ frame data would help greatly, because I could explain better how to abuse the fact that olimar doesn't have grab armor. Yes, you can ftilt during olimar's grab animation is olimar will take the hit, and not be able to grab you.
Also, I like how you assume the grab is the only option. I'd like to see you spot dodge olimar's fsmash. Close range you can shield it and punish with [angelic tone]ftilt[/angelic] OoS. Close range (ie olimars face) olimar will probably just jab instead of fsmash, but long range the hitbox on olimar fsmash out lasts DDD's spot dodge (even assuming you dodge frame perfectly). if you get hit by the weak hitbox of fsmash, it sets-up for a grab (from 0-mid percent... debatably mid-high with bad DI)... and then it's just a massively fun grab combo from there *mouth starts to water* errr excuse me... it's getting late ^^;


I hear down-air is a good option. Plus with bad DI it can stage spike / hurt him in the respect.

if it were a FFd whistle could most likely float through DDD before that final hitbox gets out (only speculation). Having the frame data (again) would be wonderful, but from my memory of DDD's uair, you can aerial dodge it no? I could be completely wrong on this, so please call me out on it. I don't like thinking I'm right when I'm not <.<



Summary: Many things were ignored or not considered. Olimar has various counter options. Some of this stuff was just plain wrong / lulzy. Please take 80% from pikmin toss. Some of this stuff ends up being useful, be careful when reading and don't be simple minded.

Still 60:40 - 65:35 Olimar

****, I'm way to tired... don't listen to my trash talk, I'll regret or forget it by tomorrow morning haha. Please call me out on the stuff I'm wrong with. Understanding the match-up is all we can do to progress the metagame


~Fino

You STRONGLY mispictured my strategy by assuming that olimar and dedede are in the middle of the stage. Meh I would just have to play you, you'll see why west coast dedede's are undefeated vs olimar.
EDIT: The ftilt knocks away and completely beats olimar's fsmash. I think it's great that you want to disprove every little portion of my strategy but instead of actually thinking about each part you're just trying to disprove every part as quick as you can. Fact is, me and Teba don't lose to olimars. But the way you put it, it can't be because the strategy works, the only logical conclusion is that we just get lucky against olimars like Richbrown.

 

[Fino]

You STRONGLY mispictured my strategy by assuming that olimar and dedede are in the middle of the stage. Meh I would just have to play you, you'll see why west coast dedede's are undefeated vs olimar.

I couldn't figure out where olimar was supposed to be on stage in reference to DDD. It seemed like it switched around so much @.@
Also, I eagerly await the opportunity =] Also, I hope you include weruop as part of west coast oli's. I hear socal has problems with the DDD mu because you all are super pro
You going to Pound 4?


~Fino

EDIT: The ftilt knocks away and completely beats olimar's fsmash. I think it's great that you want to disprove every little portion of my strategy but instead of actually thinking about each part you're just trying to disprove every part as quick as you can. Fact is, me and Teba don't lose to olimars. But the way you put it, it can't be because the strategy works, the only logical conclusion is that we just get lucky against olimars like Richbrown.

I know it out prioritizes it, but assume both players are spacing to try and put themselves in an advantageous situation (like what would happen in a normal MU, both players can say "well this and this would happen if MY CHAR spaced correctly"). ftilt isn't going to do much damage, and that's assuming the ftilt hits. @.@ Don't worry, I thought about it - I know my character has 0-priority.
I'm not saying the strategy doesn't work, only that there are many options and counter strategies that olimar has that weren't considered before making a bold claim as "50:50 DDD" due to this single one "flawless" tactic. I suppose I would have to see it though =-/ Also, fact is... I don't lose to DDD, but then again I've only played Lain and Fogo. However, from what I know, they're reputable, but not top DDD mains, so you may have me on this one. I'm still thirsting for that MM :D

 

[CRASHiC]

All DDDs should go to Pound 4. It should be the tournaments of DDDs.

 

[TlocCPU]

I couldn't figure out where olimar was supposed to be on stage in reference to DDD. It seemed like it switched around so much @.@
Also, I eagerly await the opportunity =] Also, I hope you include weruop as part of west coast oli's. I hear socal has problems with the DDD mu because you all are super pro
You going to Pound 4?


~Fino

I actually haven't gotten to play Weruop yet! I really want to because it's going to be the ultimate test of my strategy, he's considered the best olimar on the west coast. I'm going to try to make it to pound 4, we will see. I hear good things about you, I would like to play you

 

[Fino]

I actually haven't gotten to play Weruop yet! I really want to because it's going to be the ultimate test of my strategy, he's considered the best olimar in the nation. I'm going to try to make it to pound 4, we will see. I hear good things about you, I would like to play you

*fixed for truth.... at least imo.

If you take down weruop I'll have to think hard and play really smart if I even want to have a chance. lol. Weruop puts me between 2 and 3... but I definitely think he's the best olimar right now (I be fightin'!).

You should definitely come to pound 4 (start savin now... plane tickets are expensive as heck). I'll be easy to find.... kid with the pink nikes (reppin the pink boots olimar yeayuhz ;D).
Also, I made an edit... I don't want to go and edit it into this post @.@ lol


~Fino

 

[TlocCPU]

*fixed for truth.... at least imo.

If you take down weruop I'll have to think hard and play really smart if I even want to have a chance. lol. Weruop puts me between 2 and 3... but I definitely think he's the best olimar right now (I be fightin'!).

You should definitely come to pound 4 (start savin now... plane tickets are expensive as heck). I'll be easy to find.... kid with the pink nikes (reppin the pink boots olimar yeayuhz ;D).
Also, I made an edit... I don't want to go and edit it into this post @.@ lol


~Fino

Saw your edit, we should have some fun matches!
I'm the dude in the suit jacket who looks like he would be a marth main but he mains dedede.

 

[Fino]

Saw your edit, we should have some fun matches!
I'm the dude in the suit jacket who looks like he would be a marth main but he mains dedede.

=] Don't forget that MM, THAT will be hella fun *raises brow up and down*
<3


~Fino

 

[DanGR]

I'm just gonna make some corrections cuz I tested out this stuff that you guys aren't sure about. >_>

You know, an un-charged purple usmash can kill DDD in the 90s (assuming fresh and moderate DI iirc). Not to mention olimar's other various killing moves.... he's a power house.
Also, I think you're making the assumption that olimar can't punish ftilt, which I also find a bit humorous.

Without DI and no diminish a purple upsmash will kill DDD on FD at 95%. Good DI will usually add about 10-15% onto that. A safe bet would be using it at about 110%, considering it's usually used to kill as a surprise move.

Explain further, how can you punish a spaced timed forward tilt. (not doubting, asking for explanation)

Olimar can't punish it with anything but a purple toss, which is only possible if the Olimar jumped before or during the ftilt, which isn't by reaction and is really unsafe in the first place when you're near DDD. <_< What he can do is predict the ftilt and run forward and shield, then netting the shieldgrab (unless it's a purple, which might I add is the perfect time to throw out the ftilt. ) Without getting too specific, I'll say that Oli is approaching when he does this, and he's relying on the ftilt coming out, so the DDD can mix up between ftilts and grabs to get him in the air anyways.

Frame data would help explain various options better, but I can't seem to find anything incredibly accurate here.
For one, an easy way is to just jump over it and nair (which sets-up that usmash kill I might add). I understand ftilt is an advantageous move to use against olimar ^^; I'm just saying, it's not a game changing.
How many times are you going to be able to perfectly space an ftilt before it gets punished ya know?

Olimar can't short hop over DDD's ftilt from max distance. He doesn't jump high or far enough. You'd have to full jump it ahead of time. (again, not plausible)

Don't we as dededes have the ability to dair camp olimar too?

Not in the traditional way.

Also, and I could be wrong, but bair approaches can be grabbed (if too low to the ground), usmashed /uair (if high), and fsmash (if above the ground at the point where olie cannot grab). However, I will admit if you can throw out a bair 45 degrees from olimar, his only option is to pivot grab, upB, or shield... and most will not react quick enough to either (if done correctly by the DDD player).

His bair can be shieldgrabbed at all distances, but not upsmashed unless you hit DDD's head because the foot will just goes through everything.

I wouldn't recommend a dair approach though... I could be awfully wrong, but... isn't DDD rather slow in the air. An olimar main isn't going to just sit and camp until DDD is directly above him @.@ His dair can also be pivot grabbed if being used aggressively. DDD's dair DOES have the priority, but the applicability of it in this situation seems minimal =-/

Well, in the traditional sense of dair/bair camping, the idea is that DDD floats high in the air above Olimar.
If he jumps up, DDD can fast fall-> airdodge to the ground and get below him.
If he sits in his shield DDD can fall down with a swallow.
If he he upsmashes and bair will go through it. An airdodge can also deal with this, unless you time his landing.

It's basically a 3d version of rock-paper-scissors. There's not a whole lot each character can do, but DDD is heavier... and his risk/reward ratios can be higher if he does it correctly.

Something a lot of DDDs don't account for is a really aggressive Olimar when they dair/bair camp. Simple short hopped upb spacing can deal with a lot of it- as does using upsmash on DDD's frontside when he's falling. (the part where the hitbox on his bair won't cover his hurtbox.) Upsmash on his frontside will deal with swallow and bair and can really take away the swallow option altogether. If you're patient enough you can bait the swallow by throwing out your shield every now and then just rolling back while he falls. It'll reset the situation, but you'll have lost a little bit of your precious stage positioning.

As for on stage use, you have better mind game the olimar into it. I know as soon as I see DDD's mouth open I start tossing pikmin, whether they be wise sideB or with fsmashes. DDD's inhale will inhale the hitbox of the pikmin directly too him (on all smashes). The force of suction isn't quite quick enough to react to, unless at point blank... even then... if I recall, it doesn't suck you in if you're shielding right? @.@ I forget.

It does.

back air camping is an incredibly quick move with little ending lag. Once we are above you, we won't be bair anymore, we will be down airing. If you stay in shield after down air, free mix up into inhale. While approaching we can also b reversal inhale to make you think we are bairing again.
Because it has grab properties, inhale will pull you through your shield.

A lot of it is assuming the Olimar will stay in one place, but yeah those are good mixups.

I'll take your word for the dair shield pressure to inhale, but are you sure dair cannot be shield grabbed? I assume you're landing with it, otherwise DDD can be usmash'd.
The b-reversal inhale sounds sneaky. The fsmash solution to bair approaches would beat out the inhale, but it's obviously can be easy to avoid if you see it coming. I want to see that one in action before I say anything else about it =]

Dair can be shieldgrabbed unless it's rising. In that case you can short hop an upb out of shield if you're quick enough and if the DDD is at the right angle.

I'll be able to play a lot of DDD players (Albino, possibly Serin, Seibrik, CO18) in the next couple of weeks, and hopefully get some matches recorded or somethin.

 

[RichBrown]

CPU I love you and all but I'm still 4-0 against you

To be fair: we havent played since April or so and I imagine it'd be much closer

Teba and I went to game 5, and I killed myself at the end of that game, it was still ******* close. I finally realized how good Fsmash is and I pretty much relearned what to do. I'm definitely gonna get him next time I play him.

 

[TlocCPU]

CPU I love you and all but I'm still 4-0 against you

To be fair: we havent played since April or so and I imagine it'd be much closer

Teba and I went to game 5, and I killed myself at the end of that game, it was still ******* close. I finally realized how good Fsmash is and I pretty much relearned what to do. I'm definitely gonna get him next time I play him.

Lol last time you played me I was lucario XD

 

[Dabuz]

LOL, OMG, FTILT ISN'T PUNISHABLE, LOLLOLOLOLOL, i love the ignorance of that statement, maybe its hard to punish online, but offline its so easy to punish

 

[o-Serin-o]

Dabuz I think you should go take a look at my new thread.

 

[Gates]

Serin is taking over this thread so I'm bumping it.

 

[Countcocofang]

Is this matchup still considered as bad as 65:35? Good Olimars are hard to come by but it cant be THAT bad can it?

 

[Ohmu]

Honestly, I think it's 45-55, D3 - olimar. I got ***** in the MU for probably like 8 months, but then something clicked. I played against him A LOT, since my roommate/best friend mained him. Now he's my favorite MU. (I'll never give up on Dedede!) I actually like playing olimar as D3 in tourneys, since most people don't do it, which catches them off guard. I haven't played in too many tourneys, but for what it's worth I beat an Olimar pretty soundly at MLG Orlando, and during warm ups I 3-stocked another olimar at that same tournament (to cheers from some onlookers, saying things like, "is this for real?" - really satisfying). Don't remember their names, so it might not be groundbreaking, though, to be fair. But tourneys aside, I go even with a very good olimar from my region.

Olimar can't actually camp you - if he's away from you, just shbair in his direction constantly when he's away to kill any pikmin he lobbs at you. And if he's lobbing pikmin when you're close up, you can often just eat the damage since you're SO much heavier than he is. Also, when you're fighting up close, your grab is actually better than his - it's faster, and if you both grab at eachother at the same time yours will win. You can really abuse that. And though it's weird to time spotdodging his grabs (or was for me at first, anyway), it becomes extremely doable, like anything else, with practice. And once you take away his ability to pikmin camp and grab, I don't see what olimar has on Dedede. You're SO much heavier than him, and can REALLY take advantage of olimar's bad recovery. When he's off the edge, always jump as high as time allows, and then choose a time to ffbair. No matter how obvious it seems. I feel like it's always the best option, no matter what. When I play olimar, I'm always thinking of the gimp and not the kill. I feel like olimar dies like 50% of the time he's knocked off the ledge, and if he doesn't, he's taking damage like 90% of the time.

 

[Dnyce]

Honestly, I think it's 45-55, D3 - olimar. I got ***** in the MU for probably like 8 months, but then something clicked. I played against him A LOT, since my roommate/best friend mained him. Now he's my favorite MU. (I'll never give up on Dedede!) I actually like playing olimar as D3 in tourneys, since most people don't do it, which catches them off guard. I haven't played in too many tourneys, but for what it's worth I beat an Olimar pretty soundly at MLG Orlando, and during warm ups I 3-stocked another olimar at that same tournament (to cheers from some onlookers, saying things like, "is this for real?" - really satisfying). Don't remember their names, so it might not be groundbreaking, though, to be fair. But tourneys aside, I go even with a very good olimar from my region.

Olimar can't actually camp you - if he's away from you, just shbair in his direction constantly when he's away to kill any pikmin he lobbs at you. And if he's lobbing pikmin when you're close up, you can often just eat the damage since you're SO much heavier than he is. Also, when you're fighting up close, your grab is actually better than his - it's faster, and if you both grab at eachother at the same time yours will win. You can really abuse that. And though it's weird to time spotdodging his grabs (or was for me at first, anyway), it becomes extremely doable, like anything else, with practice. And once you take away his ability to pikmin camp and grab, I don't see what olimar has on Dedede. You're SO much heavier than him, and can REALLY take advantage of olimar's bad recovery. When he's off the edge, always jump as high as time allows, and then choose a time to ffbair. No matter how obvious it seems. I feel like it's always the best option, no matter what. When I play olimar, I'm always thinking of the gimp and not the kill. I feel like olimar dies like 50% of the time he's knocked off the ledge, and if he doesn't, he's taking damage like 90% of the time.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=11707623&postcount=275

Enjoy!

Lol, this thread is so old... haha... oh the days before I was banned XD

 

[Sky Pirate]

Hello Kingsonnnnn Dededooos! (kudos to anyone that gets that reference)
Umm... The thread directory sent me to the Metaknight Match-up export (which I'll assume is a joke) and I can't find an actual match-up thread, so I'll just post this here.

The Olimars are discussing King Dedede.