Matchup Thread: WHAT TIME IS IT?

[itsthebigfoot]

This is correct.



But this isn't. Where the hell do you get the "all aerial attacks are disjointed" from?. DK's Bair is non-disjointed hitbox because his foot is also a hurtbox. Conversely when Marth, MK, or G&W use an aerial it's a disjointed hitbox because the said hitbox is NOT a hurtbox as well. If DK Bairs into a sword, turtle, hammer, or aura he'll be the one getting hit while the disjoint remains intact.



DK's neutral B is not a disjointed hitbox.



With that logic, DK would have advantages over everyone with disjointed hitboxes. :-/

dk's neutral b is not disjointed, and yet it beats out all of game and watches disjointed moves, proof that the specials priority thing is right

and dk's matchups vs other disjointed characters, ike: advantage, link: advantage toon link: debated advantage marth: neutral (due to his range, speed, knockback, gimp game, and priority, not just priority) metaknight: debated, neutral or advantage, and even then, it would be neutral because of his insane speed/air game/ground game. dk out prioritizes him in all respects

as for the aerial priority, here's scotu "Physic's of Attacks" read implied priority (aerial). it's why aerials never clank, they base their priority on overlapping hurtbox/hitboxes, i.e. every aerial is slightly disjointed, its also why a lot of nairs have low priority (sonic and bowser are two great examples) they don't extend the hitbox, so any attack pretty much beats it

Priority
Priority is what determines if any one attack will beat out, lose out, trade with, or clank with another attack. The player closest to player 1 has the most priority, although the instances where this matters is extremely limited. There are two types of priority: Intrinsic Priority and Implied Priority.

Intrinsic Priority
Intrinsic Priority is what the developers added for ground and special attacks that directly compares which attack has more priority. If one attack has more intrinsic priority than another attack, the first will beat out the second, completely overriding it. If the two attacks have similar intrinsic priority, then the two attacks will clank, causing both characters to return to their default state. This only applies to ground/ special attacks, and only when two hitboxes from these type of attacks collide. The amount of Intrinsic Priority that an attack has is just the amount of % it would deal. If two hitboxes connect and one of them would deal more than 10% than the other, then that attack overwrites the other. If they are 10% or less apart, then they will clank.

Furthermore there are other systems of priority set in place. For instance, specials can clank with any attack (including aerials, which can't clank w/ ground normals or other aerials). Projectiles have their own set of rules too.

Implied Priority
Implied Priority is a function of how far the hitbox of an attack extends past the hurtbox of the character performing the attack (aka, the level of disjointedness - I'll get back to disjointedness in a moment - of an attack). This mainly applies to aerial attacks' interactions with other (including other aerial) hitboxes. Since aerial attacks don't have intrinsic priority, when a hitbox from an aerial overlaps another hitbox, the priority is not determined then (i.e. Aerials cannot clank - except for specials). In this type of collision, the "winner" is determined by whose hitbox overlaps the other's hurtbox first. The farther separated your hitbox is from your hurtbox, the more likely you are to hit them out of their attack and less likely to trade/ get hit out of your attack.

Note: The term Disjointed is kind of a misnomer. As often used by common users of the word, a move can either be disjointed, or not disjointed. However, that is pretty much a false analysis of the term, since there is no such non-relative definition of the term. Disjointedness is a term that describes the level of how much a hitbox extends past a hurtbox, not just if it does or not.

 

[HOHO420]

Dk has the advantage but not by much. GW is a pain to fight. I think its like 50/45 for Dk. The level is also another factor.

 

[Ragnar0k]

It's been a week, we should move on to another character. I nominate ROB.

 

[Master Raven]

I nominate Meta Knight. I believe MK is one of the most important matchups we should discuss.

 

[cutter]

dk's neutral b is not disjointed, and yet it beats out all of game and watches disjointed moves, proof that the specials priority thing is right

If DK punches into a disjointed hitbox, he gets hit because he extends his hurtbox. It "beats out" disjointed hitboxes because of the SA frames.

and dk's matchups vs other disjointed characters, ike: advantage, link: advantage toon link: debated advantage marth: neutral (due to his range, speed, knockback, gimp game, and priority, not just priority) metaknight: debated, neutral or advantage, and even then, it would be neutral because of his insane speed/air game/ground game. dk out prioritizes him in all respects

vs. Marth: 55/45 in favor of Marth. Disjointed hitboxes + amazing defensive game give Marth the edge. Up B OoS is just brutal. DK has to approach with absolute precision; otherwise he just gets wrecked by Dolphin Slashes and Dancing Blades all day if his spacing isn't perfect.

vs. MK 55/45 in favor of MK. This not even close to a disadvantage for MK; MK has absolutely ZERO bad matchups. He also has no true neutral matchups except for the mirror match.

MK has disjointed hitboxes and crazy frame advantages all across the board. DK's weight, power, and raw damage output keep it reasonably close however.

as for the aerial priority, here's scotu "Physic's of Attacks" read implied priority (aerial). it's why aerials never clank, they base their priority on overlapping hurtbox/hitboxes, i.e. every aerial is slightly disjointed, its also why a lot of nairs have low priority (sonic and bowser are two great examples) they don't extend the hitbox, so any attack pretty much beats it

Obviously aerials don't clank. Most nondisjointed aerials even have the most minute of disjointed hitboxes thanks to the collison bubbles (just screwed around with this in debug mode for Melee). You still fail to realize that DK's Bair and all his other aerials extend his hurtbox. If DK and DDD hit with their Bairs simultaneously, they both get hit because both hitboxes hit at the same time and both are hurtboxes. If DK and G&W Bair simultaneously, DK is the one that gets hit because Bairs hitbox hit right into the turtle and it's obviously not a hurtbox. Since DK's hitboxes are also hurtboxes, he'll get hit by turtles, swords, hammers, and all sorts of energy attacks that aren't hurtboxes. This isn't rocket science.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Although I haven't read much of the thread, I wanted to just mention a couple things. First is that DK can actually edgeguard (and spike) G&W quite well, which is something that not many characters can do. The second is that DK's forward B has more range than G&W's Fsmash <3

 

[A2ZOMG]

How does DK edgeguard AND spike G&W?

The only thing I can see is maybe DK can get in a ledge attack if G&W overshoots the ledge from below and DK has really good timing hogging the ledge, but spiking G&W? Not going to happen very often, if at all. His Up-B has 5 invincibility frames on the way up (which still counts as an attack during that time), and G&W has a number of options before Up-Bing. I'll point out that several characters are better spikers than DK, but still have MASSIVE trouble connecting a spike on G&W.

 

[DMG]

Edgeguarding G&W isn't too hard unless he comes in low and tries to go for the edge. Spiking him isn't too far fetched of an idea if G&W is forced to airdodge or put in a bad situation. This matchup is fairly even IMO, DK can reasonably compete with G&W's range (and certainly his power) in most situations, even though G&W's hurt boxes are less susceptible than DK's.

I would put it as 50 : 50 or 55 : 45 for G&W, but then again I'm better acquainted with G&W than DK.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

@ cutter, you do realise that the super armor isn't on the active frames right? the priority takes over from there, the super armor in the lead up, right before the active frames, so the priority still beats the attacks, its just that due to its damage, it's got the highest possible priority.

disjoints don't beat priority, thats why i can fmshas through game and watches fsmash. disjoints only win if the high priority attack doesn't have enough range to hit the other guys hurtbox, so when a character like dk does attack the disjoint, he has enough range to make priority decide, in which case dk would usually win (though if it was something like a charged gdubs fsmash against a dtilt, the fsmash would win)


i'll put it as even for now, but i'm still personally convinced its dk's advantage, i'll probably just get a vid of me against a good game and watch to show you

start of Pit week (yes, these are picked completely at random, because popular characters lead to trolling and people who theorycraft over actual matchup knowledge, i learned this from running matchups on aib)

 

[cutter]

@ cutter, you do realise that the super armor isn't on the active frames right? the priority takes over from there, the super armor in the lead up, right before the active frames, so the priority still beats the attacks, its just that due to its damage, it's got the highest possible priority.

The super armor frames aren't active until the actual punch. There are zero super armor frames on the quick windup before the punch. Also, refer to your intrinsic priority paragraph.

disjoints don't beat priority, thats why i can fmshas through game and watches fsmash. disjoints only win if the high priority attack doesn't have enough range to hit the other guys hurtbox, so when a character like dk does attack the disjoint, he has enough range to make priority decide, in which case dk would usually win (though if it was something like a charged gdubs fsmash against a dtilt, the fsmash would win)

Again, intrinsic priority. I already told you I understand ground priority where it is determined by damage. That's why G&W's dash attack cancels out Pikachu's Fsmash. Against aerial attacks that are disjointed hitboxes like G&W's Bair or Marth's Fair, DK will lose out because he extends his hurtbox and G&W/Marth/whoever didn't. I can't believe I'm still arguing this... -_-

i'll put it as even for now, but i'm still personally convinced its dk's advantage, i'll probably just get a vid of me against a good game and watch to show you

Once again, if you think DK has the advantage, you might as well automatically give DK advantages over MK and Marth. I can see why this is a neutral matchup however because of G&W's glass cannon nature. MK and Marth have advantages because MK has frame advantages all over DK and Marth has amazing defensive options while also packing disjointed hitboxes in their arsenals.

G&W: 50-50
MK: 55-45 (MK has no bad matchup and no neutrals except for the mirror match)
Marth: 55-45

I just saw your guide on AiB and it has MK listed as a 70-30 DK advantage. I'm at a loss for words.

 

[Luigi player]

Well, I didn't face a GaW pro, but DKs range makes nearly every matchup easy for me.

Meh, I guess I can't say anything for Pit too... The one I played is not too hard to beat =/

 

[SamuraiPanda]

G&W has the advantage over DK simply due to Bair rapage. Whether its a 55-45 or a 60-40, I can't say for sure. Also, if G&W doesn't recover low, then Bairs and other aerials will send him back out again. If G&W does recover low (like all good G&Ws should/do), then DK has 2 options. 1) Ledgehop a Dair, which outprioritizes G&W's up B (this should be used if he's recovering from medium to low height). 2) Edgegrab so G&W misses the sweetspot, then ledgehop a punch/nair/uair because G&W cannot immediately move after his parachute first opens (this should be used if he recovers from high to medium height).

And much of my experience comes from playing against Lain and NoJ, two incredibly good G&Ws.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

i haven't updated that guide since like may, when metaknights metagame was the tornado

 

[itsthebigfoot]

i'm going to double post but oh well this thread is silent

against pit, you can block arrows with ftilt, and with di you should not die until very late, also, he is gimpable

on the negative, he can gimp you with his shield pretty easily, anyone want to comment?

 

[Ripple]

I am going to have to say its a disadvantagefor DK

 

[itsthebigfoot]

wow, this died fast

 

[Ragnar0k]

I would try to add to the conversation but I have no experience against Pit.

 

[Imainlowtier]

I don't have much experience against him either.

 

[chewyy]

why not just ask the pit boards?

 

[kown]

i think Dk has the advantage over pit. gimp isnt very reliable if ur a good DK. and arrows only go so far. we do have a Cg for Dk tho from like 0-40. but thats kinda it.

hmm any tips against DK plz?

 

[i1337]

i hate pit arrow spam...lol

 

[kown]

i hate pit arrown spam...lol

most of the time pit players will over spam leaving numerous openings for a bair.

 

[i1337]

most of the time pit players will over spam leaving numerous openings for a bair.

lol i just realized that i typed "arrown"....typo XD


but yeah, i dont have much experience vs pit

 

[itsthebigfoot]

ok, pit we'll redo later because no one has experience, I personally think that the match slowly gets into dk's favor the more you play, once you learn to ftilt the arrows and smash di all his multi hits, but we'll do it later

EDIT: Marth time, personally, this is a 50-50 matchup, it's like playing melee falco, you either destroy them, or get destroyed.

The spacing game decides this matchup, if marth controls the spacing you will lose. however, if you keep him at a decent distance with ftilts fsmashes and bairs, you will win. He(it's a he right?) can gimp you, but his recovery is really bad, if you go for gimps, hit him on the second jump, because you won't win against the upb.

I'll add more later, discuss

 

[i1337]

i also say 50/50 for marth. i personally like to use up angled ftilt and grounded upb a lot in this matchup, since marth will usually be doing a short hop nair/fair. still, spam bair as usual

 

[Ripple]

I like to think of marth as a reversed DK since he can do with fair what we do with bair.

DK is stronger and has more reach
DK is a lot heavier than marth
gimpable recovery

Marth is faster and has more sure fire combos
Marth has a very good side b
better shield breaker ?
very gimpable recovery
more options for situations

50/50
dead even

 

[JST]

I've played a few decent Marth's as DK, 4:6 Marth's favor imo. Mainly because Marth gets a huge advantage every time he hits DK while he's in the air - DK is forced to face forward and expose is weakest areas - in front of and below him. Also, Marth combos DK easy, and Dancing Blade is way too good. Marth has better aerial movement and is faster.

Good things for DK tho: bair > Marth's fair, DK deals redonkolous damage and extremely quickly. DK can outrange Marth on the ground (Just be very careful tho). Well-timed SA = Marth is ****ed, and DK kills Martha early. Also, DK may have a blindspot, but so does Marth - directly below him. And it just so happens that DK's Uair is extremely good. Dk's long shield-grab also helps, but don't expect to be shield-grabbing a good Marth most of the time.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

As of now, I think its 55:45 in Marth's favor. Close matchup, but the deciding factor in the end is that DK extends his hurtbox along with his hitbox, while Marth doesn't. In case you don't know what this means, its referring to the fact that DK can get hit during his attacks because he extends his body itself which lets Marth punish any of his attacks that you miss. Marth can punish a even a spaced Ftilt if he shields it because of his range, and this matchup gets much more difficult if the Marth is good at spacing himself as well as you. I think if Marths get more experience this could possibly turn into a 60:40 in the future, simply because a ledgehopped Dair is ridiculous against DK.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

marth has always had the advantage of gimping dk, if you think dair works well, try countering dk's recovery, real pain in the ***. for marth, going low doesn't work, i usually make it a point to DI and then return with a fair, I only really upb for the ledge snap in this match. again, this is an extremely momentum based matchup, unless you're really good at playing dk, one or two slip ups can cost you the match.

also, panda, you should know how priority works, unless marth does an attack that does 20% it's going to clang, even with the extended hurtbox. ftilt retracts very fast so it's kinda hard to punish unless you space wrong. the only extended hurtbox that you really get punished for is dsmash, but then again, you shouldn't use dsmash unless you know it's going to connect, because it's so easy to punish.

however, if dk can control the pace, marth dies, quick, he's lighter than peach now if i remember right.

also, this works on several characters, but try this, dthrow by the ledge, and start charging an fsmash, if they airdodge, punish the airdodge, if he doesn't, they can't do anything since you can only air dodge out of hitstun (thats why it's so short, you can airdodge out, other things have to wait for hitstun to run out). for marth it's a little harder because he can upb if you take too long, however, it's useful, try dtilt trip to grab to dthrow by ledge, works at low percents

 

[Emblem Lord]

Marth can punish anything DK throws out except retreating Bair.

Just throwing that out there.

 

[Ragnar0k]

Marth can punish anything DK throws out except retreating Bair.

Just throwing that out there.

You must not know about DK's Down B.

 

[i1337]

what about grounded upb?

 

[Pierce7d]

You must not know about DK's Down B.

You must not know about Dolphin Slash outta shield/SH shield breaker.

I think this is 55/45 in DK's favor personally. Even with counter in my arsenal, I feel DK being able to keep Marth outta my range. Dtilt is super underused with DK, and it's one of the biggest "get out my face tools" in the game. It either has very little ending lag, or some really decent IASA frames.

DK is really heavy, and KO's very early. Marth is quite the opposite, save tippers, but all Marth's smashes are punishable on block, and Giant Punch is too good, lol.

 

[Karmie]

My advice is to prevent Marth from Zoning you, shut him out, don't get juggled, try to hold the momentum as long as you can, and if you do get juggled, use your super armor (up B or Giant Fist) or escape through your bair or fast fall away.

It's the best advice I can give ^_^.

 

[OmegaXF]

You must not know about DK's Down B.

What exactly does that mean? If Marth blocks DK Down B, Marth can still Dolphin Slash out of shield before he is to far away. So Dk can still be punished...

 

[Ragnar0k]

If DK spaces his down b correctly Marth shouldn't be able to hit him.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

if you powershield anything when right next to them its punishable, but a properly spaced dk is very hard to punish

 

[Emblem Lord]

I wasn't referring to B moves when I said that, but down B is safe when fully spaced.

 

[Karmie]

Question:

Does DK's bair out prioritize Marth's nair/fair/fsmash?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Aerials don't clank really.

DK's bair is his foot/leg though, so if it gets hit then DK will get hurt.