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MELEE-FC Tournament Ruleset Discussion

omgwtfToph

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One or two guys come in and insult the midwest and you guys all go up in arms. LOL

MW, your region is mediocre as hell. This has nothing to do with the ruleset, so let's stop talking about it.

The Kishes have also stated that plenty of midwest people have argued against the ruleset, and FC's ruleset has very little to do with the region itself. I don't know why you guys think this is an issue.
 

leffen

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I just said that MW is bad, and has historically always been,

Possibly because the scene is very spread out. I never said that being big was good >_>
However, Europe is probably even more spread out, with its insane language barriers (this is probably the reason why europe overall is worse than the US, along with the fact that everyone plays teams all the time and improving from playing teams is much harder)
but europe still manages to have quite a few top-top level players while MW honestly has never had one

Europe has also always been "ahead" in terms of rulesets- we started cutting down stages and playing bo5 (which both promote actual skill improvement) waaaaay before the US did, and I think that it has really helped us in the long run

I think its that its quite likely that the Bo3 w/ gay counterpicks rulesets have had a heavy impact on the skill level tbh and I think the "random stuff should be in the rulesets or melee sucks" thinking indicates that you care less about actual improvement and more about winning/having fun
 

omgwtfToph

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I agree that playing predominantly neutral stages is the best way to improve, but it's not like most Midwest tournaments use stages like these.

Plus even for this tournament, with each player having 3 bans I think most high-tier character matchups (ICs being the exception) are gonna come down to mostly the neutral stages.
 

KishPrime

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FCD had Drephen/Darkrain/Vidjo in the Top 8, so it's not like we've never had players at the top level, and Drephen/Darkrain both won some majorly stacked regionals outside the MW, so it's kind of silly to say there's never been a top-top level player from the MW. But no, Midwest never pulled down a national champ.

Think it's kind of ridiculous to attribute that to stages, though. You guys seem to believe that it's an either/or proposition, but the inclusion of stages has little to do with one's desire to improve technically and more to do with what you philosophically believe about Melee as a game. When I practice technical skill, it's always on neutral stages because it does create a "safe" environment for perfecting those skills, but that doesn't mean that's the whole extent of the game. It's just a piece.

We just always tried to let Melee be it's own thing, you know? If ICs suck on half of the stages, then maybe they're not a good character? If we were trying to balance the game in 2006, maybe we would've banned the plat stages that gave Fox too much of an advantage over Peach to give Peach an advantage? You can't force balance, because the game is always changing and inherently unbalanced, and balance is pretty much an opinion since there's no actual data that can separate player skill. Well, that was always our philosophy, anyway.

Wanting more stages != terrible player. That's a horrendous conclusion to make and would pretty much validate every internet stereotype that gives smashboards and tournament players a bad name.

Then again, maybe ya'll don't care.
 

Mahone

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Ya, i think the stagelist is iffy and i don't like the $85 entry fee but you guys are being hella mean for no reason.... no need to bring MW's overall skill into this.

The one thing i'm curious about is if there is a spectator fee? I only payed 10 bucks at apex and got to chill for all 3 days, and i don't really care about entering the tournament so it was perfect for me... will you have anything similiar to this?

Also, I don't think you fully answered peef's question of "what are you doing to make this event better than other nationals?". You keep saying you have a good track record and you keep using buzzwords, saying it will be a magical experience to remember and feel like part of a bigger community, etc. Which is great, I'm feeling the LOVE and the HYPE, but i want some cold hard numbers. Can you say how many friendly tvs you have, maybe make a guess on how many people will bring... explain how you are going to record in great quality and possibly upload vids quickly, explain what kind of stage you will have and how you will separate the crowd, etc.

Just some stuff that can concretely show that this event will be worth the money for people who haven't been to an FC before.
 

KishPrime

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Ya, i think the stagelist is iffy and i don't like the $85 entry fee but you guys are being hella mean for no reason.... no need to bring MW's overall skill into this.

The one thing i'm curious about is if there is a spectator fee? I only payed 10 bucks at apex and got to chill for all 3 days, and i don't really care about entering the tournament so it was perfect for me... will you have anything similiar to this?

Also, I don't think you fully answered peef's question of "what are you doing to make this event better than other nationals?". You keep saying you have a good track record and you keep using buzzwords, saying it will be a magical experience to remember and feel like part of a bigger community, etc. Which is great, I'm feeling the LOVE and the HYPE, but i want some cold hard numbers. Can you say how many friendly tvs you have, maybe make a guess on how many people will bring... explain how you are going to record in great quality and possibly upload vids quickly, explain what kind of stage you will have and how you will separate the crowd, etc.

Just some stuff that can concretely show that this event will be worth the money for people who haven't been to an FC before.
This is actually crossing over to the other thread, and I did answer it there.

I can say that our goal is at least a 4:1 ratio on TVs to players, and we'll buy enough TVs to get to a 5:1 ratio at least if people bring the systems for it. For reference, old FCs were like, 6:1 or 7:1.

To be honest, we have plans for all of these things and they'll come out over the next month or two, but it takes time to draw up documentation that's worth releasing to the public, especially with the amount of time I'm putting into threads like this and answering people's questions, and just getting the logistics down. I'd love to shove it all out on the table at once, but it's just not possible. This isn't a full-time job, though it's getting close on the hours, and it's still something that we're mostly trying to do for fun. :p

As more and more details come out, I think that people will be both surprised and excited. And they will come, but they'll come in the right way so we can make good on all of our promises.
 

Moooose

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why would you need any more than a 1:2 player to tv ratio lol. you need at least two people to play at a tv
unless you mean 1:4 instead of 4:1 but in that case you would want to push the number on the right down instead of up
 

omgwtfToph

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I was thinking that, but since the Kishes all have mathematical references in their names (and therefore probably wouldn't mess something like that up), and are touted to be godlike TOs, I just assumed they were going for the ****ing gusto.
 

Mahone

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lol.... no way, 7:1 tv to person ratio HAHAAH...

thats not going for gusto thats having a tv hoarding problem

But it will be cool if i have 7 tvs just for me... that would definitely be worth 85 bucks

Just remember you said that, imma hold u to that (at least 4 tvs for me).
 

Kal

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Odds aren't that commonly used in mathematics. In gambling, you can create a useful heuristic to quickly calculate whether your play has a positive expected value, but otherwise I haven't heard of odds (equivalent to ratios) being very commonly used in math. So I wouldn't be that surprised if a mathematician messed up the odds. I actually didn't even observe the mistake until Moooose pointed it out.

But hey, maybe Kish really just wants everyone to have seven TVs. I would bring some DVD players and watch seven 007 films at once. herp
 

Kal

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He died because you think Batman is better than Iron Man. That would be like thinking Iron Man is worse than Batman.
 

Pink Reaper

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"Here's a prime example as to how strong CP's can be for certain characters. Trail manages to beat Darkrain match 1 of the set using IC's. Darkrain displays his understanding of how powerful CP's can be by taking Trail to Rainbow Cruise. This is a notoriously bad stage for IC's, and Trail even comes out with his known secondary, Marth, which is basically the only suggestion thus far for combatting against CP stages. Darkrain proceeds to absolutely demolish Trail, continuing the set to game three, where darkrain barely wins. Now what stage exactly does Trail have to pick against Darkrain that gives him that same advantage? Mute? Lol getting knee'd once means Darkrain gets a free edge guard kill with IC's sorry recovery, to which admittedly IC's can do back, but the moving stage removes their CG, so at best it's even and at worst it's still in CF's favor. Corneria? Say hello to 70% knee kills. So here is an instance where characters and stage advantage/disadvantage played a large enough role that the player had no real answer for it. The stages introduced advantages to one character that the other character had no access to."

I lost a lot of sets like this and i felt robbed lol. "Learn to play another char" BRO I DONT SEE DIS ***** USING ANOTHER char, this is some bs. The best would be losing game one and then just accepting that im prob gonna lose game 3 playing on a stupid stage.
I agree with this guy, ban stages so IC's players dont feel bad about their characters limitations.
 

C!Z

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I would just like to say aren't all these good/not bad for fast fallers? With the exception of Brinstar. You say play other characters if your character has a bad match up, but doesn't that give all the ff mains a huge advantage? I like playing on these stages, but at a national that I travel for I wanna use my main. Just sayin.
 

Pink Reaper

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I've always found it odd that people seem to not realize that Top Tier characters are the best characters in the game. Like, it's not as if they're awful characters who suddenly became the best because of the stage list. They're just built better. Have you seen the engine in Fox?

Be like Kage. Pick your character, play your character, win with your character, lose to sheik. Stop Whining.
 

omgwtfToph

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I actually think the stage list favors floaties a little more. Consider space animal vs floaty (particularly Peach/Puff); the spacie should ban Mute City, Brinstar and Jungle Japes, and the floaty should ban MK2 and Rainbow Cruise. The floaty then has 1 "extra" ban they can use on Stadium, YS, or even FD/DL64 at leisure.
 

omgwtfToph

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why would a spacie ban japes? that seems more like a problem for a floaty to deal with a spacie than the other way...
oh god definitely not against peach/puff lol. Me and SW tested that **** this weekend. Puff's aerial mobility and Peach's turnip+float makes camping the side platforms a lot ****tier than you'd think. Actually fighting Puff on the central platform isok but the stage has a very high ceiling and the river makes it very easy for Puff to get bogus kills without putting Puff at a disadvantage. Fighting Puff on the platforms is suicidal. And fighting Peach is a nightmare on that stage. Stray dsmash/dash attack/fair can randomly put you in the river lol. :/

Japes is probably a lot better for spacies vs. Samus/Ganon and similar characters that can't just poke in from the air to harass campers.
 

Mahie

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How do you beat Shino Stall when Sheik can switch between two ledges (e.g. Mushroom Kingdom II; Jungle Japes) ?
Assuming someone wants to abuse that, is there really something you can do about it ?
 

Strong Badam

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How do you beat Shino Stall when Sheik can switch between two ledges (e.g. Mushroom Kingdom II; Jungle Japes) ?
Assuming someone wants to abuse that, is there really something you can do about it ?
I brought this up and it seems an issue in theory but then again, M2K and Hax made the same proposition for Sheik/Puff planking on every stage but it has yet to be seen in tournament. If something's an issue in theory but not in practice, is there really an issue? Same reason why we don't have Bowser in Top Tier just because in frame-perfect gameplay he's untouchable.
If it ends up being an issue then KishPrime stated that a ruleset change is certainly possible between rounds of pools or between round 3 & Bracket. At the same time, Tim has already stated that there's going to be a ruleset revision and it seems like Japes & MK2 are the most objected to stages on the list, so I wouldn't be surprised if they're removed.
 

leffen

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On normal stages you can just grab the ledge and get a free kill/heavy punishment against sheik, its heavily overrated
puff cannot sweetspot, that strategy is good but not broken

on JJ/MK2 you cannot grab the edge, as sheik can just switch on reaction to you taking it.

THEN there the fact that your invincible to klaptrap and they are not (it works FOR planking, not against!) which makes any mistake/luck =kill

Sheik planking does happen a lot in tournament matches but it also gets punished a lot.


I seriously cannot wait to see M2K ban YS BF DL.
Brinstar/Mute/MK2/JJ? Free win for Sheik
RC, PS(MK2+JJ)?Free win for fox
FD? Against M2K's Marth? Good luck
 

PEEF!

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I just said that MW is bad, and has historically always been,

but europe still manages to have quite a few top-top level players while MW honestly has never had one
Are you serious right now? Have you ever heard of Darkrain, or are European players so bad with/against Falcon that they pretend that he doesn't exist?

=]
 

Metà

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On normal stages you can just grab the ledge and get a free kill/heavy punishment against sheik, its heavily overrated
puff cannot sweetspot, that strategy is good but not broken

on JJ/MK2 you cannot grab the edge, as sheik can just switch on reaction to you taking it.

THEN there the fact that your invincible to klaptrap and they are not (it works FOR planking, not against!) which makes any mistake/luck =kill

Sheik planking does happen a lot in tournament matches but it also gets punished a lot.


I seriously cannot wait to see M2K ban YS BF DL.
Brinstar/Mute/MK2/JJ? Free win for Sheik
RC, PS(MK2+JJ)?Free win for fox
FD? Against M2K's Marth? Good luck
this is a really bad post.

herp derp, take m2k anywhere and it's a 'free win'

that just makes it sound like m2k is really good. how are brinstar and mute auto-win for sheik?????? that makes no sense. mute doesn't even have ledges.

EDIT: although i agree with the first part, planking on japes is actually pretty easy, and i could see it being a huge problem if someone were to try that in tournament.
 

omgwtfToph

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yeah sheik isn't really good on mute city haha. i would counterpick that **** all day against sheiks

the point leffen was making (a player who can use more characters has a better chance of winning) is valid though, a ruleset with more stages means that counterpicking characters is a more valid strategy

that isn't necessarily a bad thing

(also idk how that means "m2k is gonna win lol!" when mango, armada and pp also play like 5 characters at godlike levels. especially mango lol)
 

Battlecow

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haha yooooooooooo


MW is ****ing terrible compared to any other region lol
mm. Honestly, though, you have one singular good player in your entire continent. Glass houses, stones.

I like how one singular region of the US gets compared to the entire ****ing continent of Europe. How 'bout we get compared to, IDK, southern spain instead? Yeah. We're actually a lot better than the average european region... It's just that you guys suck badly enough that we lump about 9 countries together instead of 1/6 of a country being its own thing.
 

KishSquared

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Whoa, international trashtalk. Sounds like we need a MW vs Europe crew battle at FC :)

I do think that people have the mindset of wanting to make it so people never need to switch characters. The old school line of thought was always, always to keep the neutral set non-character-limiting, but then to allow counterpicks to decimate particular characters precisely because of advanced slobs. Like I said earlier, being 'forced' to play ICs on RC is not a limitation of the game, it's a limitation of the player. Why the HECK are you playing ICs on RC??

New school thought (again, generalizing here) seems to be that a player should never be hard-forced into changing characters. I heavily disagree with this and would argue that the 'better' player could be judged based on how many characters they know, but I also recognize that it's a subjective argument. Trail disagrees, but Trail is biased :p
 

Kal

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Yeah KishSquared, it's common for players to blame the stage for a loss due to poor character choice. For some reason, players would ignore a complaint like "I can't win with Pichu because none of the stages are good for him," but, if you have a scenario where there are both good and bad stages for a certain character, the bad stages are dismissed, as though it's not ok for a character to have good stages and bad stages, but it is perfectly fine for a character to have only bad stages. We accept as an inevitability that Pichu will suck on every stage, but for some reason we refuse to do the same with a character like Ice Climbers, simply because the character sucks on fewer stages.

I'm ok with bans because of excessive randomness, or because they are game-breaking (e.g. Hyrule), but banning Rainbow Cruise because it's bad for Ice Climbers makes absolutely no sense. If you want to discourage being "forced" to switch characters, you're going to need to ban most of the cast. There is no other fix.

I'm expecting a response along the lines of "Pichu is inherently worse than Ice Climbers," but I am hopeful that people see the equivalence between what stages a character is good on and how good that character is.
 

omgwtfToph

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I do think that people have the mindset of wanting to make it so people never need to switch characters. The old school line of thought was always, always to keep the neutral set non-character-limiting, but then to allow counterpicks to decimate particular characters precisely because of advanced slobs. Like I said earlier, being 'forced' to play ICs on RC is not a limitation of the game, it's a limitation of the player. Why the HECK are you playing ICs on RC??
This is going to be the 5th or 6th time I've said this, but I wholeheartedly agree. But for this tournament, and this tournament alone, the neutral set is not necessarily non-character-limiting, because there is no neutral set. If ICs fight a Peach or a Puff, it is in the Peach/Puff's best interest to ban 3 neutrals. Now the ICs player is going to be fighting on what is essentially a "counterpick" stage on game 1. This is inconsistent with even the "old school line of thought" you presented.

Which is why I'm suggesting differentiating between neutral stages and counterpick stages, just like old school tournaments.
 
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