MELEE-FC Tournament Ruleset Discussion

[Youngling]

I'm for this ruleset because it's fun.

But dont try to argue that any of those stages don't add a luck factor to winning a match.

 

[Prince_Abu]

the main problem with mk2 is the layout of the stage itself i think more than the eggs. the two raised platforms and the gaps in between mean no edgeguarding which is different from preetty much every other stage i think this is what kage was saying too

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Stage debates are never unanimous, guys. Many people I've talked with have agreed that KJ contains a number of properties that are worse than MK2 and JJ. The barrel and klaptrap are fairly similar in that you know the general geographic area, and both are responsible for saving/taking stocks. People make a lot out of 0% deaths, but how often are people actually at 0 when the klaptrap gets them? An average of 40-50% sounds reasonable. By saving a stock, a barrel gives the player a chance to last another 10, 30, or 50% (or longer, given that stage). They're pretty comparable.

I think the impact of the Klaptrap is a little more uniform across match-ups than the barrel's is. Like, when I'm Sheik and playing against somebody on KJ64, they usually still die if they get in the barrel because I just slap them again whenever they decide to come out. However, if I'm ICs, I'm a lot less able to substantially punish somebody for rocketing straight up when at a distance from the stage. With the Klaptrap, on the other hand, anybody knocked off-stage at the wrong time is liable to get hit by it, although how often you're going to be put in that position is again something that still depends on match-ups, but my intuition is that it overall is to a lesser degree. Note that I'm just making a random observation here and not trying to prove a point against a Klaptrap. Frankly, if anything, the Klaptrap serving a more consistent role amongst match-ups than the barrel could be a point towards it, although that's not a claim I'm sure I want to back too strongly.

Another random observation I feel like making is that the barrel is farther below the main platform on KJ64 than the Klaptrap is below the main platform on JJ, so in practice, I'd wager that the Klaptrap is generally more likely to influence combat than the barrel is since it's generally closer to the action than the barrel is.


I'd conjecture that the reason most smashers are more okay with the barrel than the Klaptrap than the barrel is that they find things that randomly kill them more offensive than things that randomly save them.

In the meantime, the geography of the stage is extremely susceptible toward encouraging non-conflict and run-away techniques. At least Japes doesn't have the additional vertical dimension making this easier.

At least in some match-ups, Japes' side platforms can be a bit of camping issue. Across the board, KJ64 probably does have bigger camping issues than JJ does, overall. This is all assuming you're viewing camping as something bad, which it looks like you're implicitly assuming here; if you're not assuming that or are assuming something similar, feel free to correct me.

It looks to me like the issue here is whether JJ's (likely more interactive, but more uniform across match-ups) hazard coupled with an occasionally camping-conducive layout should be deemed worse in some sense than KJ64's more frequently camping-conducive layout together with the barrel, which in turn probably comes down to whether you view defensive play as something that should be avoided/discouraged more than potent stage hazards (I'm being vague with "potent" here, but off the top of my head, I'm not exactly sure what I want to say here anyways) should be. And this is all just comparing these two stages without further complicating things by bringing a bunch of other stages with similar "issues" into the picture.

I don't think I'll ever understand why people have a problem with MK2, but I've already written that one off to me being weird. At least with other stages I usually understand why people are saying what they're saying.

The layout can have strange effects on match-ups. The walk-off edges enable high-variance strats like camping the sides, and also enable death combos that you don't see often on other stages. On the other hand, approaching somebody on the center platform when coming from the sides can be a pain in some match-ups. I can't speak for why people hate Birdo (my guess is that they just dislike powerful projectiles randomly being introduce to the fray every now and then); I personally don't really have anything against the stage right now.

 

[Divinokage]

How can you not see that the entire edgeguard game on MK2 is non-existent? All you need is one good trap and the opponent can die in one or 2 hits, or one grab whatever it is.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I didn't say anything that suggests that I'm not aware of that. Edgeguarding isn't sacred. Personally, sure, I'd rather play on stages where edgeguarding works more normally, but it's hard for me to defend that with anything other than personal preference.

 

[Divinokage]

It isn't? Even the How to Play defines the game that you have to intercept your opponent when he's trying to recover. I mean if you are trying to keep the core of the game then the stage should be removed, yes?

 

[Metà]

I was going to make the same point as Fly did about KJ64. Why is defensive play/camping a bad thing? As far as I'm aware, it is not possible to infinitely stall on that stage like on Hyrule or Great Bay. I will admit that one of my best strategies on KJ64 is to time people out, but I have also done that on other stages, like DL64 for example. Timing out is a legitimate strategy, and is not particularly easy to do against a good player, either.

And of course, as Violence pointed out, the barrel actually adds depth to the match, whereas the Klap Trap merely restricts people even further.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I don't think it's reasonable to talk about the "core" of the game in a vacuum. We define the game we play, not the How to Play video. There are lots of and lots of very different games you can craft out of the Melee disc.

 

[Divinokage]

I don't think it's reasonable to talk about the "core" of the game in a vacuum. We define the game we play, not the How to Play video. There are lots of and lots of very different games you can craft out of the Melee disc.

Then regardless it's still the odd one out. What would be the purpose of adding that stage in? What does it balance? What does it remove?

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Justifying what rules you use in general is really hard to do since it always comes down to one's one ideals about what the game should be. It looks to me like Kishes value the variety that comes with having lots of stages and hence want to include stages that are ostensibly not broken, regardless of whether they differ from the norm. I can't speak for them, though, so you'd need to ask them directly about that to get a better answer.

 

[CanISmash]

Thank you FC God. Love the ruleset. kind of wish i could attend. we'll see.

can't stand all this whining about stages. pound ruleset killed so much.

 

[Divinokage]

Well then let's see their answer on that. I don't think it was only variety that is driving their choice on the stages.

 

[Kal]

And of course, as Violence pointed out, the barrel actually adds depth to the match, whereas the Klap Trap merely restricts people even further.

This isn't conclusively proven, and I don't even think it's true. It restricts people, but it's not as though it functionally removes some part of the game without adding anything in return. A mechanic develops around Klaptrap: you are forced to avoid its position and, when possible, send your opponent toward it.

Care must be taken when making arguments like these. A stage like Hyrule removes depth by causing the game to degenerate; every counterpick will be a Fox-ditto on Hyrule, necessarily, and every Fox-ditto on Hyrule will fall down to who can get the first hit. But nothing like that exists on the stages in Kish's ruleset, and especially nothing like that results from the Klaptrap.

It's fine to think that there is something disagreeable with a stage hazard like the Klaptrap (I share this opinion, actually; if I were to develop a platform fighter, it would probably reflect the MBR5 stagelist), but it seems people take a logical leap from "I dislike this stage" to "this stage decreases depth."

 

[FoxLisk]

Don't worry FoxLisk, we're considering two issues here. First is what's fair from a competitive standpoint, and second is what the community wants to see, regardless of competitiveness.

no you guys don't get what I'm trying to explain. I'm trying to say that there are two separate threads of conversation here but no one has separated them properly so people are just yelling at each other, when if we could acknowledge that there are two totally distinct arguments going on maybe we could make some progress on one or both of them, or at least clear things up for people who are just frustrated in general.

 

[KishSquared]

How can you not see that the entire edgeguard game on MK2 is non-existent? All you need is one good trap and the opponent can die in one or 2 hits, or one grab whatever it is.

Why were you grabbed near the edge of the stage? There are many options in MK2, not the least of which is waiting for the Birdo/eggs to disrupt the camper. Many people assume that a player has no choice but to approach an edge-camping character. And honestly, if someone truly counterpicks you to this stage, switch to a character with strong projectiles. There are many options that don't involve dash-attacking the person and getting shield-grabbed -> death.

LOVE your avatar, btw. Heart under blade, all the way

Well then let's see their answer on that. I don't think it was only variety that is driving their choice on the stages.

Correct, variety isn't our purpose here. Our belief is that a player's skill can be tested by varying stage elements, perhaps even moreso than a static stage. Reacting to changes, positioning, and timing are all excellent qualities in a competitive situation. As long as the stage isn't detrimental to the match, we believe it should be in.

As such, our goal isn't to have as many stages as possible, otherwise we'd probably have 15-17 stages on. Our goal from the beginning has been to compromise between 17 and 5, hence the 11. It's clear the compromise we proposed won't be accepted as enough of a compromise.

no you guys don't get what I'm trying to explain. I'm trying to say that there are two separate threads of conversation here but no one has separated them properly so people are just yelling at each other, when if we could acknowledge that there are two totally distinct arguments going on maybe we could make some progress on one or both of them, or at least clear things up for people who are just frustrated in general.

Fair enough, but to Prime's point, they really become the same argument eventually. Someone's view of fairness affects their ability to have a good time. One of our hopes in discussion is to open people's minds to the possibility that some of these stages are really good stages to have on, especially considering there are players here who started after they were banned. At the same time, who ever wins an Internet debate? lol

When we change the stagelist, it's entirely unlikely that we'll be doing it because we suddenly change our perspective on the game. It will be to ensure a better compromise so people will feel like they'll have a good time.

who says you cannot react?
klaptrap is the new randall

i think 'kish' explains it quite well in this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTofgs5Q3H0

This is amazing. Can you tech KlapTrap every time? If so, everyone's arguments against the stage just got destroyed

love the tags, btw.

 

[Divinokage]

Heart under blade? What???

You say switch to a character that has strong projectiles but you know it's impossible for 99% of smashers to have mastery over multiple characters, that just requires a ******** amount of time. I'm not saying you should approach in that risky position, it's just that you don't need to worry about how the character is going to try to recover, it's just a battle of footsies only and invincibility frames.

 

[KishSquared]

Saying 'I can't play any of those characters' is a self-imposed limitation. That's not a fault of the game. If your character has a stage weakness that can be exploited, your best move is to either ban the stage or pick up a secondary. This goes for character counters as well - even Armada had to learn a new character to deal with Jigglypuff.

Regardless of that argument, isn't all of Smash a battle of footsies and invincibility frames? But again, you have options. You aren't forced to approach, so no need to rely on winning the off-camera grabbing contest. Birdo will come eventually and disrupt them one way or another - either by giving you eggs or by forcing them to jump over it. The person camping is always in the worse position on that stage, in my opinion.

Camping the center is probably the larger threat, but with current metagame tactics using ledge invulnerability frames, I don't anticipate it being a broken-good position. I could be proven wrong pretty easily with a video, if anyone wants to make their point solidly.

 

[Deleted member]

i think kj64 is substantially worse that jungle japes.

edge camping on mk2 is immensely risky in this set for a few reasons. 1 is that you'll only play there if the other player allows it, so you're never going to get a "and then i edge camped him and i won" MU unless one of you is ********. the 2nd reason is that you can actually just die. do you really want to sit 1 roll dodge away from death against the best players in the world? i'd rather camp the middle or the 4 edges honestly.

 

[Shai Hulud]

How can you not see that the entire edgeguard game on MK2 is non-existent? All you need is one good trap and the opponent can die in one or 2 hits, or one grab whatever it is.

Why do all the stages need to be the same? What exactly is bad about a stage where stocks end sooner, or a stage with different edge tactics?

And there are other unique stages on the list, like Rainbow Cruise. I guess one could argue it shouldn't be included because it moves and the other stages don't, but I just don't see this form of argument as valid, without expressing exactly why it's bad for a stage to be different.

 

[Divinokage]

It's bad because we are trained to edgeguard an opponent trying to recover and that in itself is very hard and challenging, without that it just seems to me that you are just focusing on bashing each other.. like I said it removes a whole level of depth... if you don't need to worry about that then all it takes is one bad DI and you are pretty much dead because the blast zones are very close. It's not competitive without that imo.. it'll just feel like a simple friendly match.

 

[Metà]

i think kj64 is substantially worse that jungle japes.

care to elaborate?

 

[Prince_Abu]

wat else do u think umbreon? i wanna hear all ur wisdom

 

[JPOBS]

Melee can be played in a ton of different ways. The current trend of what the community at large has been moving towards for the past few years have been to develop a game which seems to emphasize these 3 main priniciples:

- two ledges
- a single, unbroken main platform
- KO ability off the top, sides, and bottom.

All the stages in the current rulesets obey these principles, and all the stages which aren't currently allowed violate one or all of these principles. At the base, these attributes seem to be the 3 most valued attributes to have in competitive stages.

You could argue that these values are "arbitrary" and you'd be right. But it seems pretty common that that's what players want in the stages we have made out of competitive melee. That's what is bad about a stage with different edge tactics or a stage that moves. It deviates highly from how the community at large wants to play melee.

 

[Strong Badam]

i agree.
legalize Peach's Castle

#occupyFC

 

[Shai Hulud]

i agree.
legalize Peach's Castle

#occupyFC

I don't think Peach's Castle meets these criteria because the main platform is not unbroken. Although I guess it would depend on what you consider an "unbroken" platform. I think it means flat with no gaps or obstructions.

Brinstar sorta meets these criteria, except when the lava is high preventing KOs off the bottom.

Yoshi's Island 64 and DK64 meet these criteria, though, and most players hate these stages. I guess DK64 occasionally fails "KO ability off the bottom" due to the barrel.

I think the real criteria most people are using (though it may not be conscious) is

1. Stage must be mostly flat.
2. Stage must not have walk off edges.
3. Stage's main platform(s) must have grabbable ledges.
4. Stage itself must not move.
5. Stage must not have excessively disruptive, random elements.
6. Stage must not highly distort matchups, i.e., if Fox is the only viable character, then the stage fails.
7. Stage must not have highly unusual geometry, i.e., a theoretical stage that met criteria 1 - 6 but had 15 platforms would probably fail.

I don't think most people would have a problem with Green Greens, for example, if it didn't have blocks, apples, and wind. Or Brinstar without acid.

I don't think absolute flatness is a real requirement either. If Yoshi's Island 64 were scaled down and didn't have the clouds it would probably be acceptable. Or if there were a Battlefield-esque stage but with tilted platforms.

 

[Strong Badam]

i didn't mention brinstar because the main platform literally breaks

 

[Deleted member]

care to elaborate?

generally we rate good and fun in the same way: you need to be able to interact with your opponent, and them with you. if you think of some of the most broken or un-fun strategies in competitive games, they tend to be ones that the opponent cannot interact with. after that....you just pick the stages that offer the most interaction.

mk2 kinda dumps on ice climbers, falcon to some extent, and thats probably it. KJ64 can completely invalidate some matches, even ones that feel fairly random like pikachu vs luigi. it's only as bad as the players want it to be...but the opportunity is there pretty much.

we can go much deeper than that but i don't see a point. as long as you get the general idea, the examples are easy to find.

 

[KirbyKaze]

How can you not see that the entire edgeguard game on MK2 is non-existent? All you need is one good trap and the opponent can die in one or 2 hits, or one grab whatever it is.

So basically...

It's like any non-floaty top tier vs non-floaty top tier MU?

 

[Hax]

i'm not here to talk about the FC ruleset, which i think will be a nice throwback but by no means an optimal stagelist for competitive play

i just want to know how the **** Yoshi's/FoD are still neutral in competitive rulesets

i swear to god if anyone tries to tell me that Randall doesn't randomly affect matches because it can be tracked by the clock...

 

[leffen]

broken tactic number one

camp as sheik on JJ. Get the lifelead, and grab the ledge.
Since you are 100% invincible, you will not be hit by the klaptrap BUT your opponent will when he tries to steal the ledge from you.
If he gets lucky (since you can't react to it) then sheik can simply grab the other ledge on reaction with ZERO risk.

other ledge campers can just grab the outer edge and have zero risk of getting klap'd even if they get hit. saying that it counters ledge planking shows that you have a big lack of experience ...

and about lucky/SS match: SS just got lucky that the lava rose before Lucky was done. The lava has huge variances in when it rises, even though the pattern is the same. The risk reward was in lucky's favor, he was just unlucky.

lets have much more of that happen to armada when he pays thousands of dollars to get to the tournament


BECAUSE NEWSCHOOL SUCKS LOLOLOL

 

[S l o X]

i just want to know how the **** Yoshi's/FoD are still neutral in competitive rulesets

falcon would be so good if yoshis / fod weren't neutral.

on that note: i'd rather play on these jank stages than play on fod.

most likely going to fc regardless of ruleset.

 

[The Great Gonzales]

back in the old days of MLG we had these stages on + even corneria. The tourneys were still really good since people just learned how to play in these stages , or deal with the fact that a counter-pick is suppose to be a counter-pick. True its gonna be an adjustment to anybody who's spoiled with the MBR5+staidum but its still gonna be a fun tourney. Anybody that thinks this tourney favors floaties like peach or jiggz then by all means learn those characters and win the tourney with them

 

[odinNJ]

Idk why there's so much hate for FoD. Good stage is good

 

[Divinokage]

Falcon is actually pretty ****ing good on YS, wtf.. lol.

 

[Metà]

back in the old days of MLG we had these stages on + even corneria. The tourneys were still really good since people just learned how to play in these stages , or deal with the fact that a counter-pick is suppose to be a counter-pick. True its gonna be an adjustment to anybody who's spoiled with the MBR5+staidum but its still gonna be a fun tourney. Anybody that thinks this tourney favors floaties like peach or jiggz then by all means learn those characters and win the tourney with them

this ruleset doesn't favour floaties, it favours space animals

but then again, pretty much every ruleset does, cause spacies are OP, so w/e

 

[Marc]

This is only about "old school vs new school" if "old school" means that you quit the game at least 5 years ago. I've been attending and running tournaments since 2002, off and on, and I really don't like either the Melee or Brawl ruleset for this event. Can't say I was very likely to go, but I would honestly not go to a tournament with these rulesets if it was across the street. That said, people shouldn't be getting upset and personal over this. It's up the TOs to run a tournament the way they want and it's up to players to attend or not. It is in the interest of both parties to keep communication civil and reasonable.

We can repeat the stage debate for the umpteenth time, but, regardless of what is right, there is an overall consensus. Consensus matters if large deviations mean that players (in this case) have to learn several controversial stages for just one event. As a fun throwback event it probably works, but it's understandable if current top players don't want to bank their money and reputation on an unknown ruleset that they probably disagree with in the first place. With a game like smash you can't help but draw some arbitrary lines, but if many people draw it in the same place and are happy with it, so be it. There is probably a degree of consistency to the controversial stages (though asking for video evidence on their brokenness is kind of lame when 1. that's often not the point, 2. several of these stages have been banned forever and hardly made the YouTube era and 3. that's asking for a lot when this isn't just about one or two stages), but at the same time you can wonder what issues are addressed by doing things drastically different.

A culture shock both ways. I hope that the Kishes can find something that is agreeable to everyone involved and for the event to be a success regardless of all this.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

i don't think the ruleset favors spacies. i think SSBM favors spacies. and the ruleset just has a lot of SSBM in it.

basically.

 

[Deleted member]

I hope that the Kishes can find something that is agreeable to everyone involved and for the event to be a success regardless of all this.

This was already a futile task to begin with. There are just too many permutations available and too many differentiating opinions for a decision to be even close to unanimous.

 

[Marc]

Yeah, I realized as I wrote it that my hope would probably be in vain.

 

[Deleted member]

Yeah, I realized as I wrote it that my hope would probably be in vain.

well you also said you wouldn't walk across the street for FC. if you don't "get it" then you're not going to. anyone who has ever played smash even semi-seriously should be at this event.