Melee Match-Up Chart (NTSC) [Update 008 - 09.09.28]

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

yeah yoshi should do better than them but you know why it's bad to grab an ice climber right? Cause you get DOWN-SMASHED, wavedash included. But I think the ice climbers would be a little better at edge gaurding yoshi than most because of their raw power, but could be wrong

 

[x After Dawn x]

yeah yoshi should do better than them but you know why it's bad to grab an ice climber right? Cause you get DOWN-SMASHED, wavedash included. But I think the ice climbers would be a little better at edge gaurding yoshi than most because of their raw power, but could be wrong

I don't think you know what you're talking about.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

A lot of characters' grab games are quite good against ICs.

 

[otg]

Doc v. Icies seems to be more like 6 - 4 doc then even.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Techchase grab, jab -> grab, several moves that combo ffers into grab? Unless you're implying that ICs can't hit the opponent without them making a mistake, this is a little vague.

It's hyperbole, but I was mainly referring to grabs that weren't tech chased (since you can get, off tech chase, pretty much anything you want if you react or predict perfectly) or gotten as a result of a true move --> grab combo (ie. jab --> grab wouldn't count here because it is escapable, whereas if you say launched a Fox with something and grabbed him because there was enough stun to do so, it would).

But I really do not think ICs have the same tools as the other top tiers or even high tiers to acquire as many grabs. It is not too uncommon to see ICs get 1-4 grabs in an entire set nowadays.

 

[unknown522]

Doc v. Icies seems to be more like 6 - 4 doc then even.

ICs win that matchup.

pichu could do the same thing to the same % with d-throw and f-throw. and both could follow up with something pichu could b0throw edge gaurd or up-throw air move. Sheik counters him hard I argee, but more than just chain throws, because pichu has them to

no he can't.

Techchase grab, jab -> grab, several moves that combo ffers into grab? Unless you're implying that ICs can't hit the opponent without them making a mistake, this is a little vague.

ICs vs Fox -- 5/5
ICs vs Falcon -- 6/4
ICs vs DK -- 7/3
ICs vs Roy -- 9/1
Fox vs Roy -- 8/2

I don't have time to offer reasoning right now, but I'd be interested in discussing these match-ups and finding out what other people think about them (especially the first two).

fox v ICs are not even close to being even. The shine is dumb, especially vs them. They will never be able to avoid the shine since fox will use it every other time he attacks. Nana gets gimped too easily and popo vs fox is a **** matchup.

This is really minor but I see no reason why Yoshi has a worse matchup vs. ICs than most of the other low tiers. I'm not knowledgeable about the matchup but Yoshi's neutral-B can actually be problematic since ICs rely heavily on shielding (and neutral-B beats shield) and if you egg Popo you can go ahead and get Nana off the stage. If you egg Nana then she doesn't wiggle out and Popo has to fight solo long enough for Yoshi to get some momentum going. Yoshi is also surprisingly fast and in general fast characters can run circles around ICs.

Awhile time ago I faced Eggm's Yoshi in tournament after going like 60-40 with his spacies in friendlies and he beat me. It's by no means a good matchup for Yoshi though. 3-7 at best, but he definitely fares better than characters like Bowser and Roy.

Yoshi having no grab game is horrible + single climber is already good vs yoshi.

 

[otg]

I'd be interested in hearing why you feel Icies win that matchup, because the concensus amongst the docs is that he wins it atleast 55-45, maybe 60-40.

 

[x After Dawn x]

This times a thousand. On paper, it seems like Falco completely dominates Falcon, and by a huge margin as opposed to Fox, but in reality, it's really not like that. Falco can die from ONE combo from Falcon, whereas Fox could live at least three combos from Falcon. And I'm pretty sure a knee at 40 % near a ledge is like an auto-kill for Falcon if he knows how to edgeguard properly. It should be 6-4 for Falco, which is what it is now.

Also, am I crazy for thinking Jigglypuff vs Falco should be 7-3 instead of 6-4? Jigglypuff has SO many good counterpicks vs Falco. I think that once this matchup chart starts including counterpick stages (which it should soon), then there's definitely a possibility of 7-3 considering Jigglypuff has Mute City, Brinstar, Kongo Jungle 64, Dream Land, Battlefield and Fountain of Dreams (not to mention one of Falco's best stages in the whole game, Final Destination, isn't one-sided at all in the matchup because Jigglypuff can just jump over Falco's lasers and pressure him to move towards the edges of the stage). I think right now though, with just neutrals , 6-4 sounds okay, but I'm trying to remember the last time I saw a good Falco win a tournament set off a good Jigglypuff...

Someone read this. When will counterpicks be implemented into matchups?

 

[KirbyKaze]

Probably when the counterpick rulings cease being played with so much.

 

[x After Dawn x]

I don't see how they've changed. Most tourneys implement the same counterpicks, with the exception of maybe Green Greens (which should be a legal counterpick as a small stage as opposed to all of the big stages for counterpicks).

 

[Skler]

Why is Link vs Ganon such a bad matchup for Link? Ganon is a character Link can actually camp with SOME results. Sure, Ganon can kill Link at lower %s, but Link can camp like a ho and Ganon really shouldn't be recovering much against Link.

I'd say 4-6 Ganon's favor at WORST for Link, but I'd put it closer to even. It's pretty style dependent.

Also, Link vs Mario should be the same as Link vs Doc. Link is at a disadvantage due to getting his balls comboed off of him, getting edgeguarded and not being able to combo at all.

Young Link is a disadvantage for Link.

Link vs G&W is probably even because of the fair and G&W actually being capable of edgeguarding.

Link vs Bowser is a large advantage for Link, I can't imagine how a campy Link could lose to Bowser.

Link vs Zelda is probably a small advantage for Link, 7 seems too good. He doesn't do nearly as well vs Zelda as he does vs Bowser.

Screw numbers! Small, large and huge/massive advantage/disadvantage is all we need!

 

[x After Dawn x]

Screw numbers! Small, large and huge/massive advantage/disadvantage is all we need!

No. It's already lost precision in its transformation from 5 point increments on a scale to 100 to what it is now.

 

[-ACE-]

Why is Link vs Ganon such a bad matchup for Link? Ganon is a character Link can actually camp with SOME results. Sure, Ganon can kill Link at lower %s, but Link can camp like a ho and Ganon really shouldn't be recovering much against Link.

I'd say 4-6 Ganon's favor at WORST for Link, but I'd put it closer to even. It's pretty style dependent.

I argued pretty much the same thing 10 pages back. The chart used to have it as 65/35.

Keep in mind Ganon can catch bombs and fair/bair boomerangs as be pleases. Link shouldn't be recovering much against Ganon either. Ganon can also chaingrab link up to 74% and end it with a free aerial. 60/40 seems right to me.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I don't see how they've changed. Most tourneys implement the same counterpicks, with the exception of maybe Green Greens (which should be a legal counterpick as a small stage as opposed to all of the big stages for counterpicks).

Fair enough, although I think there is also a distinct lack of good information on how matchups pan out with CP stages incorporated.

I agree on the Ganon stuff mostly because it makes sense, but I think Ganon death grab (though he doesn't get many), Ganon edgeguarding, and raw kill power give him the advantage over Link's ability to run away throwing random moves, projectiles, and edgeguard.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

ganon ***** everyone below him on the tier list. someone told me that back in the old 05-06 tier list, ganon was put last in mid tier because he would be OP in low tier tournaments.

 

[Skler]

If Ganon catches bombs Link is failing at throwing them correctly. It's incredibly easy to throw a bomb so it's impossible to catch unless the opponent jumps with the purpose of catching the bomb (or you can throw them extra low). Saying Ganon can catch bombs so they're a moot point is like saying Ganon can catch turnips so they're a moot point. Bombs are effective against Ganon.

All Ganon has is the ability to kill Link at 70 and a CG that he should never get to use. While that's a pretty big deal for a character used to surviving until 120 or so, it isn't that awful.

This is why the number system needs to go. I wouldn't mind saying Link has a slight disadvantage vs Ganon, but 6-4 sounds wrong.

 

[-ACE-]

We were talking about Link CAMPING Ganon with bombs, in which case, catching them is not hard. Sure you can extend combos with bombs when Ganon is in stun, but things don't always work out as planned since you can SDI the explosion. And I might add that good Ganons catch turnips all the time.

Saying that Ganon should never get to use his cg is wishful thinking. Ganons that are experienced in the matchup will eventually get through your wall of spam. If Link catches a dair at low percents he's grabbed. Link cannot miss one grab, and jabs/tilts also often lead to grabs. JC grabbing Link as a techchase is also an option at times. One grab means Link is at 90-100 percent too, I love it.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

ICs win that matchup.

definitely not

 

[JPOBS]

This is why the number system needs to go. I wouldn't mind saying Link has a slight disadvantage vs Ganon, but 6-4 sounds wrong.

but, 6-4 is a slight disadvantage

 

[Dark Sonic]

This is why the number system needs to go. I wouldn't mind saying Link has a slight disadvantage vs Ganon, but 6-4 sounds wrong.

6-4 and "slight advantage" are supposed to be synonymous <_<.

Numbers are perfectly fine as long as everyone understands what the numbers represent. It's really just a form of shorthand notation.

 

[TheManaLord]

10 times a mad good ganon plays a mad good link i'd assume ganon would win at least 6 if not 7!

 

[unknown522]

Why is Link vs Ganon such a bad matchup for Link? Ganon is a character Link can actually camp with SOME results. Sure, Ganon can kill Link at lower %s, but Link can camp like a ho and Ganon really shouldn't be recovering much against Link.

I'd say 4-6 Ganon's favor at WORST for Link, but I'd put it closer to even. It's pretty style dependent.

Also, Link vs Mario should be the same as Link vs Doc. Link is at a disadvantage due to getting his balls comboed off of him, getting edgeguarded and not being able to combo at all.

Young Link is a disadvantage for Link.

Link vs G&W is probably even because of the fair and G&W actually being capable of edgeguarding.

Link vs Bowser is a large advantage for Link, I can't imagine how a campy Link could lose to Bowser.

Link vs Zelda is probably a small advantage for Link, 7 seems too good. He doesn't do nearly as well vs Zelda as he does vs Bowser.

Screw numbers! Small, large and huge/massive advantage/disadvantage is all we need!

Just wait for the next update. Most of the things you said are actually there already.

definitely not

What the hell do they have that's safe on the ICs?

 

[Mind Trick]

Yoshi's matchups seem a bit exaggerated.

Sheik 9-1
Gay *** chainthrowing in NTSC till 100% or so I've heard, so probably right

Fox 8-2
Big advantage over yoshi seems right, but as it stands now it's equal to falco's matchup ratio, who can be seen as yoshi's worst matchup next to NTSC sheik (trapped in shield complex, gets shine combos easy), so I'd say 7-3.

Marth 9-1
I consider marth one of the more manageable high tier matchups, on final destination dead even, on other stages slight favor to marth. marth definitely has the range advantage here, but no reliable kill moves but the tipper against yoshi. Because of that yoshi can live to ridiculous %. Besides that yoshi has eggs, can double jump through marth's attacks for the nair counter, can dodge an fsmash with his own fsmash, can do relatively well in edgeguarding marth (instant edgehog, dsmash/dtilt), and can do good damage when marth is above him.
I'd say 6-4 marth's favor.

Jiggs 9-1
Don't have the most experience in this matchup, but 9-1 is ridiculous. Probably around 7-3 to 6-4. One of the best things about jiggs, his/her edgeguarding, hardly works on yoshi around <70% or so. Yoshi has projectiles that have a great trajectory considering jiggs mostly moves around through the air. Aerials (mostly bair) are hard to get around, but to combat this somewhat, yoshi has body distortion with fsmash/upsmash, both much larger hitboxes than most people expect.

Falcon 8-2
Both can combo eachother massively, but falcon has his insane speed and it doesn't really help you can't use your shield (both spotdodge and roll are too slow to be of much use, lightshielding is pretty good if you have no other option than shield). Uptilt however does stop almost every aerial approach in it's tracks, and is a great move to start juggling or go to jab(reset) to downthrow. Knee tears through double jump, making recovery somewhat hard, but the same can be said about a falcon recovering low. If he goes high it's a bit hard though to edge guard succesfully (only options really are nair and upair, nair doesnt send him too horizontally with good DI, and upair kills only like at above 150%).
8-2 is probably right (although could be 7-3)

 

[unknown522]

Yoshi's matchups seem a bit exaggerated.

Sheik 9-1
Gay *** chainthrowing in NTSC till 100% or so I've heard, so probably right

Fox 8-2
Big advantage over yoshi seems right, but as it stands now it's equal to falco's matchup ratio, who can be seen as yoshi's worst matchup next to NTSC sheik (trapped in shield complex, gets shine combos easy), so I'd say 7-3.

Marth 9-1
I consider marth one of the more manageable high tier matchups, on final destination dead even, on other stages slight favor to marth. marth definitely has the range advantage here, but no reliable kill moves but the tipper against yoshi. Because of that yoshi can live to ridiculous %. Besides that yoshi has eggs, can double jump through marth's attacks for the nair counter, can dodge an fsmash with his own fsmash, can do relatively well in edgeguarding marth (instant edgehog, dsmash/dtilt), and can do good damage when marth is above him.
I'd say 6-4 marth's favor.

Jiggs 9-1
Don't have the most experience in this matchup, but 9-1 is ridiculous. Probably around 7-3 to 6-4. One of the best things about jiggs, his/her edgeguarding, hardly works on yoshi around <70% or so. Yoshi has projectiles that have a great trajectory considering jiggs mostly moves around through the air. Aerials (mostly bair) are hard to get around, but to combat this somewhat, yoshi has body distortion with fsmash/upsmash, both much larger hitboxes than most people expect.

Falcon 8-2
Both can combo eachother massively, but falcon has his insane speed and it doesn't really help you can't use your shield (both spotdodge and roll are too slow to be of much use, lightshielding is pretty good if you have no other option than shield). Uptilt however does stop almost every aerial approach in it's tracks, and is a great move to start juggling or go to jab(reset) to downthrow. Knee tears through double jump, making recovery somewhat hard, but the same can be said about a falcon recovering low. If he goes high it's a bit hard though to edge guard succesfully (only options really are nair and upair, nair doesnt send him too horizontally with good DI, and upair kills only like at above 150%).
8-2 is probably right (although could be 7-3)

why not just light shield to get away?

Also, marth v yoshi is stupid. Once yoshi decides to attack, marth ***** his balls off.

But yeah, there are a bit of changes in the next update, regarding every character. Just wait for it.

 

[Skler]

6-4 is an advantage, 7-3 is a big deal, 8-2 is ****, 9-1 is the character stands no chance and 10-0 shouldn't exist. That's how I read the numbers. 6-4 just seems too big for such a close match.

If it's 6-4 as a small advantage, 7-3 as an advantage, 8-2 as a large advantage and 9-1 as **** Link's matchups need to be changed a lot.

 

[HawaiianJigglyPuff]

Yoshi's matchups seem a bit exaggerated.
Jiggs 9-1
Don't have the most experience in this matchup, but 9-1 is ridiculous. Probably around 7-3 to 6-4. One of the best things about jiggs, his/her edgeguarding, hardly works on yoshi around <70% or so. Yoshi has projectiles that have a great trajectory considering jiggs mostly moves around through the air. Aerials (mostly bair) are hard to get around, but to combat this somewhat, yoshi has body distortion with fsmash/upsmash, both much larger hitboxes than most people expect.

Definitely not 9-1. Jiggs probably dies at lower percentages in this match up than Yoshi so you can fall behind in percentage if you're jiggs. 7-3 would be a lot better.

Falcon 8-2
Both can combo eachother massively, but falcon has his insane speed and it doesn't really help you can't use your shield (both spotdodge and roll are too slow to be of much use, lightshielding is pretty good if you have no other option than shield). Uptilt however does stop almost every aerial approach in it's tracks, and is a great move to start juggling or go to jab(reset) to downthrow. Knee tears through double jump, making recovery somewhat hard, but the same can be said about a falcon recovering low. If he goes high it's a bit hard though to edge guard succesfully (only options really are nair and upair, nair doesnt send him too horizontally with good DI, and upair kills only like at above 150%).
8-2 is probably right (although could be 7-3)

I'm happy with 8-2 for this

 

[Kyu Puff]

fox v ICs are not even close to being even. The shine is dumb, especially vs them. They will never be able to avoid the shine since fox will use it every other time he attacks. Nana gets gimped too easily and popo vs fox is a **** matchup.

If Fox goes for n-air shine aggression he loses. Whenever Fox commits to an approach, ICs easily maneuver around it and punish; they cover most of his options with just a few moves. Even his safest approaches lose to stupid mindgames like dd dash attack to grab. On the other hand, ICs have a handful of safe approaches on Fox that if used correctly don't really give him a window for punishment. If he decides to play the waiting game he's just giving ICs a chance to push him away from the edge, nullifying whatever **** could come out of his shine.

Fox's main boon in this match-up is platform camping; he's pretty safe running around on platforms and dropping down with unpunishable shines. Not to say everything about his ground game is bad -- his grab game and u-smash are both also good against ICs, but he's still at a disadvantage without the platforms. At this point, neither character really has an easier time hitting the other, but both can **** each other extra hard whenever they land a hit.

ICs have a good grab game even without wobbling, good combos and launchers, and solid edgeguarding vs Fox. Fox has the ability to gimp and land early kills, launch them into the air, and is fast enough to play a good separated game. It's debatable if Fox has a small advantage, but it's definitely closer to even than 6-4.

I'd also like to point out that solo popo vs Fox isn't ****. Popo loses some of his safer options (jab and b-air become much worse, dash attack is shorter), and clearly can't punish as hard, but he still has decent smashes, grab combos, and techchasing.

 

[x After Dawn x]

Falco vs Yoshi seems right at about 8-2. Yoshi isn't good enough to take a third match off him. =(

 

[Nintendude]

If Fox goes for n-air shine aggression he loses. Whenever Fox commits to an approach, ICs easily maneuver around it and punish; they cover most of his options with just a few moves. Even his safest approaches lose to stupid mindgames like dd dash attack to grab. On the other hand, ICs have a handful of safe approaches on Fox that if used correctly don't really give him a window for punishment. If he decides to play the waiting game he's just giving ICs a chance to push him away from the edge, nullifying whatever **** could come out of his shine.

I really disagree with that, and also don't see what gives ICs a particular advantage vs. Fox's approaches since their dash dance is mediocre at best. Their dash-A is alright but due to its weird hitbox if Fox gets hit by it it is mostly his fault for not spacing his attack properly. My experience with Fox is that Fox can run circles around ICs and it only takes one shine to totally break their momentum.

On the subject of qualitative vs. quantitative matchups, I say 6-4 = advantage, 7-3 = large advantage, 8-2 = ****, 10-0 shouldn't exist.

 

[BunBun]

Yoshi's matchups seem a bit exaggerated.
Jiggs 9-1
Don't have the most experience in this matchup, but 9-1 is ridiculous. Probably around 7-3 to 6-4. One of the best things about jiggs, his/her edgeguarding, hardly works on yoshi around <70% or so. Yoshi has projectiles that have a great trajectory considering jiggs mostly moves around through the air. Aerials (mostly bair) are hard to get around, but to combat this somewhat, yoshi has body distortion with fsmash/upsmash, both much larger hitboxes than most people expect.

Yoshi is huge restbait.
There is very little you can do at the end of your recovery onto the stage that isn't easily punished by jiggs.
Yoshi is huge restbait.
Yoshi is huge restbait.

That point is just huge...

Eggs aren't that hard to deal with, honestly.
If the Jiggs knows the matchup, they're not about to be hit by a u-smash.

You've got a good thing going with your nair, but it's doubtful that you'll be able to get the hit in thanks to Jiggs' areal movement.

Not being able to break your superarmor isn't that big of a deal. Around 130 Jiggs can Uair you out of it, and getting Yoshi to 130 isn't hard.

So yeah, maybe not 9-1, but **** close to it or 8-2

 

[x After Dawn x]

On the subject of qualitative vs. quantitative matchups, I say 6-4 = advantage, 7-3 = large advantage, 8-2 = ****, 10-0 shouldn't exist.

Why not? It's not saying that the disadvantaged player has a 0 % chance of winning; it's saying that if the two players played 10 matches together, that disadvantaged player would most likely not win any games.

 

[worldjem7]

6-4 is an advantage, 7-3 is a big deal, 8-2 is ****, 9-1 is the character stands no chance and 10-0 shouldn't exist. That's how I read the numbers. 6-4 just seems too big for such a close match.

If it's 6-4 as a small advantage, 7-3 as an advantage, 8-2 as a large advantage and 9-1 as **** Link's matchups need to be changed a lot.

Would you rather I put it back to 100?

The whole reason I put it to 100 was for cases like this, but you're wrong in thinking that's what the numbers mean.

The numbers don't represent some abstract feeling of "advantage" or "disadvantage." It clearly states what the numbers mean on the first post. To make sure everyone who doesn't understand get this through their heads, I'll make it even clearer.

Adopted from the Street Fighter community, the match-ups shown are when two characters play 10 games against each other on neutral stages and seeing how many games they'd win.

On the subject of qualitative vs. quantitative matchups, I say 6-4 = advantage, 7-3 = large advantage, 8-2 = ****, 10-0 shouldn't exist.

^^^ This is wrong.

Why not? It's not saying that the disadvantaged player has a 0 % chance of winning; it's saying that if the two players played 10 matches together, that disadvantaged player would most likely not win any games.

^^^ This is right.

Why is After Dawn the only one who understands this?

 

[-ACE-]

Wrong. There is no such thing as 0% chance of winning in smash. Nintendude is right. Just because one character loses 10 games to another doesn't mean there is a 0% chance of him winning.

However, for all intents and purposes, I have no problem with labeling a certain matchup in this chart as a zero or a ten. For example, I don't think Pichu will ever be able to beat Sheik 10% of the time at the highest level of play, therefore she does not deserve a 1, which imo should indicate roughly a 10% chance of beating Sheik in a tournament set.

 

[The Good Doctor]

Wrong. There is no such thing as 0% chance of winning in smash. Nintendude is right. Just because one character loses 10 games to another doesn't mean there is a 0% chance of him winning.

However, for all intents and purposes, I have no problem with labeling a certain matchup in this chart as a zero or a ten. For example, I don't think Pichu will ever be able to beat Sheik 10% of the time at the highest level of play, therefore she does not deserve a 1, which imo should indicate roughly a 10% chance of beating Sheik in a tournament set.

it's per match, not per set. Also, it's of players with an equal skill level, not a bad Sheik, and incredible Pichu

If a Sheik and a Pichu, are of around the same skill level, playing on final, how many should Sheik win?

ALL OF THEM

 

[x After Dawn x]

Wrong. There is no such thing as 0% chance of winning in smash. Nintendude is right. Just because one character loses 10 games to another doesn't mean there is a 0% chance of him winning.

However, for all intents and purposes, I have no problem with labeling a certain matchup in this chart as a zero or a ten. For example, I don't think Pichu will ever be able to beat Sheik 10% of the time at the highest level of play, therefore she does not deserve a 1, which imo should indicate roughly a 10% chance of beating Sheik in a tournament set.

So...did you miss like every post above yours, or what...? Did you not read what I said?

 

[-ACE-]

So...did you miss like every post above yours, or what...? Did you not read what I said?

No, I didn't miss the posts, I'll admit, I skimmed and misinterpreted.

Edit: beer johns :<

 

[KirbyKaze]

I think I'm beginning to understand your sig.

PP has pretty good mindgames.

 

[Europhoria]

It's funny how the low tiers think they can do something to a campy and skilled top tier player.

Iunno where Yoshi gets a whole 2 on Fox. If Fox wants to shoot him, camp platforms, and only use like back air/shine until Yoshi dies >_> well clearly Yoshi's magical 19 jumps and sword will appear to help him win, or even catch/hit the Fox.

 

[Skler]

If you're talking neutral stages, equal skilled players and how many GAMES each character would win in a 10 game match then most low tiers vs top tiers would be 10-0. Getting a 10% chance to win each time doesn't mean you'll win 1 out of 10 games, it means you have a 1 out of 10 chance to win 10 different times.

This is why a sort of advantage/disadvantage thing makes more sense. Games in a close matchup will be 1 stock games, but the character with the disadvantage should lose a lot. The chart can't say "6-4, but they'll all be close games!"

Just use numbers to represent slight advantage, advantage, large advantage and **** (hell you can do without ****).

If you ARE going with the out of 10 games shenanigans then Link vs Sheik is 1-9 (though it can easily be pushed to 10-0 if you REALLY assume equal skill and neutrals), Link vs Fox, Falco and Captain Falcon are 2-8 (can be pushed to 1-9 assuming completely equal skill and neutrals, even worse if you assume camping for Fox/Falco) and Link vs Marth is 3-7 (again, it could be pushed down assuming equal skill and neutrals).

I'd rather put it as "Link has a large disadvantage against Sheik, Fox, Falco and CF" instead of tossing out numbers that make it seem completely hopeless. It's bad and those characters SHOULD win all the games, but the chart makes the matchup seem unwinnable!

 

[SonuvaBeach]

I'd rather put it as "Link has a large disadvantage against Sheik, Fox, Falco and CF" instead of tossing out numbers that make it seem completely hopeless. It's bad and those characters SHOULD win all the games, but the chart makes the matchup seem unwinnable!

Low vs Top tiers at high levels of play basically is unwinnable. The disadvantages the characters have to overcome is just too large. Maybe they should be 10-0 the system being used is the # of games won system. But this isn't about making matchups seem unwinnable, it is about being realistic. Realistic means that at high levels of play the low tier characters will win 0 games. It basically is unwinnable in the conditions this chart specifies. If you have ever played Marth-Link, or Sheik-Link (my two mains), then it is obvious the advantage is huge. I have played much better players than I using low tier characters and won simply because I can exploit their weaknesses.