flaco
The Terminator
these game has some mindgames 10% and the rest is execuation
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Mindgames dont exist: The Truth
- Thread starter mog87
- Start date
slim de la crim
Smash Apprentice
hey mog87 i think the game played a mindgame on you! lol i think the "man" got you jacked into the matrix too long. lol i your attempt to change anyones oppinion failed horribly.
Cort
Apple Head
No, they don't.
pockyD
Smash Legend
not reading this thread, but...
mindgames exist, just not in the capacity that people tend to believe
a mindgame (in my book anyway) is a specific action or set of actions designed to trick the opposing player; say, dash in, wd back
do some player have "better" mindgames? i suppose, but to me all this means is that they have more tricks in their bag
what makes a truly good/smart player is the ability to properly use the mindgames at the right time, and i think "playing smart" is a much better description of good play on a non-purely-technical level than the current awful term of "has mindgames"
mindgames exist, just not in the capacity that people tend to believe
a mindgame (in my book anyway) is a specific action or set of actions designed to trick the opposing player; say, dash in, wd back
do some player have "better" mindgames? i suppose, but to me all this means is that they have more tricks in their bag
what makes a truly good/smart player is the ability to properly use the mindgames at the right time, and i think "playing smart" is a much better description of good play on a non-purely-technical level than the current awful term of "has mindgames"
Cort
Apple Head
And, what if people just fsmash your dash away and you get tippered and DI horribly
...mindgames?
...mindgames?
AlcyoNite
Smash Champion
did they know u would dash in in the first place? did they BAIT ur dash in?
is the marth a complete nuub whom ur were too dumb to read?
does LUCK exist in the same realm as MINDGAMES?
questions for you to ponder...
Cort
Apple Head
I don't ponder any of those questions
stuff just happens in melee
stuff just happens in melee
pockyD
Smash Legend
i'm pretty sure you're joking, but to me all it means is that they read your action and responded properly; not a 'mind game', just a smart decision
Cort
Apple Head
No, I'm not joking
You don't go about mindgamesing people
people react to what you do, and depending on how THEY react makes your decisions worth it or not
so in conclusion, mind games don't exist
You don't go about mindgamesing people
people react to what you do, and depending on how THEY react makes your decisions worth it or not
so in conclusion, mind games don't exist
puckgood
Smash Journeyman
All a mind game is is making your opponent think you're doing something you're not. So dashing towards your opponent and then wavedashing backwards right as they attack you since they think your going to be somewhere your not and then dashing in again to attack them while they're still lagging is a mindgame. You're making them think the wrong thing.
RomeDogg
Smash Journeyman
I am not as good as pros but i even use mind games, I make my opponent think i am going to do one thing so he does another and therefore if it goes as intended then i have the upper hand because i punished him for a mistake i tricked him into making for my better. If he doesnt fall for it i can still prevent myself from being punished by adjusting to what is happening. From there i try other mind games, or i just do something i wouldnt normally do that they wouldnt precieve so once again i trick their mind. So therefore its a mindgame. If there werent any mindgames the game would be boring and the matches wouldnt mix up alot, me and my best friend have to use mind games in order to beat eachother by more than one stock because our skill is on the same exact level we even get tie games every now and then. Anyway if there were no mind games it would pretty much be Brawl because Brawl is mainly luck.
RomeDogg
Smash Journeyman
I even have to use mind games in order to recover with my link by either using his instant chain, air dodge down chain, air dodge up chain, air dodge back chain, sweet spotted up-b, up-b early, delayed jump or whatever it takes so i don't get spiked everytime since my friends Marth is a spiking madman. He has it timed perfectly.
PIMPSLAP
Smash Lord
I agree Cort about the action reaction theory you have.In game play the mind game comes into play. when you can take advantage of this weakness your oppenent has towars a certain attack and use it against him.
replicate
Smash Lord
So many opinions on mindgames, so many of them so dumb.
By the way, people should go back and read the first post; he's saying that he hates having the term "mindgames" thrown around. Nobody (except Cort--he's a wily character) is saying that they don't exist, but in all honesty you can't call everything mindgames.
Spacing, evading, knowing when to camp or rush your opponent, and expertise and knowledge of your characters moves are all incredibly important aspects of the game, but when people lump these together and say "M2K GOTZ DA MIENDGAMEZ!!1!" it just gets really, really old. Know what a mindgame is and what isn't.
Also, stop linking to videos with "conclusive proof of mindgames at 3:27," because, really, that's ridiculous..
By the way, people should go back and read the first post; he's saying that he hates having the term "mindgames" thrown around. Nobody (except Cort--he's a wily character) is saying that they don't exist, but in all honesty you can't call everything mindgames.
Spacing, evading, knowing when to camp or rush your opponent, and expertise and knowledge of your characters moves are all incredibly important aspects of the game, but when people lump these together and say "M2K GOTZ DA MIENDGAMEZ!!1!" it just gets really, really old. Know what a mindgame is and what isn't.
Also, stop linking to videos with "conclusive proof of mindgames at 3:27," because, really, that's ridiculous..
Crizthakidd
Smash Champion
AlcyoNite
Smash Champion
wtf stuff just happens? really?
mindgameing is not a verb (i say that not to be an ***hole, but no1 is saying that u do go around myndgamsing ppl).
but the whole premise of mindgames is that YOU are controlling your opponent and the overall tide of battle; not that the opponent reacts to what u do in a positive or negative way (to you). if it was "worth it," then gj, u have gewd mindgames...but the concept of mindgames is so vague that ur gonna have to watch this video:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=0UbQ-gpOMB0
Rappster
Smash Ace
now i know way too many ppl have used the football analogy, but being a madden freak, i'm gonna use it anyway.
in my understanding, mindgames implies deception, not necessarily choosing the most obvious move in a situation. for example, in football, i would a play action pass a mindgame. it is used in a situation where the defense is expecting a run, so the offense fakes a run to confuse the defense and decides to pass. a pass may not be the best idea in the situation, but the offense hopes that the defense will be expecting the run and will be out of place to stop the pass, therefore allowing a big gain for the offense.
or at least that's my theory of mindgames
in my understanding, mindgames implies deception, not necessarily choosing the most obvious move in a situation. for example, in football, i would a play action pass a mindgame. it is used in a situation where the defense is expecting a run, so the offense fakes a run to confuse the defense and decides to pass. a pass may not be the best idea in the situation, but the offense hopes that the defense will be expecting the run and will be out of place to stop the pass, therefore allowing a big gain for the offense.
or at least that's my theory of mindgames
I found the last line amusing. **** yo couch darkness!
Grunt
Smash Master
I thought Tiers don Exits was stupid.
what's next?
Conterpix don exits?
what's next?
Conterpix don exits?
If you don't mindgame on purpose, you're not a very talented player.
Grunt
Smash Master
Winston
Smash Master
Dunno why so many people are arguing with Cort. He actually plays this game well and stuff.
Skler
Smash Master
That's like saying if a math professor tells you 2+2 = 8 you shouldn't argue because he actually does math for a living. The term mindgames is overused, but you can't say that nobody tries to trick their opponent or bait attacks.
SpaceFalcon
Smash Lord
Pretty sure Meele players shouldn't be argueing over mindgames.. especially since meele has come this far.
Every movement you make, every flick of the control you do is a mindgame. If you dash left once and then dash right to your opponent as opposed to not dashing left at all is a mindgame.
If you put your controller down and do absolutly nothing it's a mindgame.
It's not over used at all, people just don't understand and get into huge fuss's about it.
Every movement you make, every flick of the control you do is a mindgame. If you dash left once and then dash right to your opponent as opposed to not dashing left at all is a mindgame.
If you put your controller down and do absolutly nothing it's a mindgame.
It's not over used at all, people just don't understand and get into huge fuss's about it.
replicate
Smash Lord
I think it's easier to say that, instead of every single movement you do is a mindgame, there are relatively few things you can do to actually confuse and control your opponent, and the rest just goes into your style of playing.
"Mindgames" is horribly overused.
"Mindgames" is horribly overused.
JonBeBonanza
Smash Lord
Mindgames are overused, but that's not to say that they don't exist.
Those that say mindgames don't exist, are simply using a mindgame themselves.
They are EVERYWHERE!
Those that say mindgames don't exist, are simply using a mindgame themselves.
They are EVERYWHERE!
Grunt
Smash Master
Mindgames must exist.
Just look at Shiek.
that's a chick? woah, got me!
Just look at Shiek.
that's a chick? woah, got me!
Winston
Smash Master
Shiek doesn't exist.
Mindgames?
@ skler: the thing about this subject as compared to the math analogy is a). not only is it purely an argument about semantics at this point, but unlike arithmetic, this is a subject where top players would have more insight into how the game works. It'd be more like telling a student who has just learned square roots about imaginary numbers.
Then again, I don't understand cort at all. maybe I'm just getting mindgamed.
Nocturnalist
Smash Ace
indeed.........obviously you never heard of baiting a person.
MaskedMarth
Smash Ace
This topic has been debated to death. I object to the term "mindgames" for two reasons.
(1) it's an vague term that leads to vague, vapid discussion:
Why? Because Smash is a game of options. Neither "technical skill" nor "mindgames" accounts for the player's mechanism of choosing one of these options. And this skill is the most important! A good Smasher chooses options that stand well against any of the opponent's counter-options.
Let's consider an example; I'm playing against a non-tournament player (who nonetheless has years of experience with the game). I voluntarily forgo wavedashing, l-canceling and short hopping, setting my technical capacity equal with his. And I certainly have no insight onto his mind, so "mindgames" certainly don't auger in my favor. Yet I win with ease. How do I do it? It's because even with a reduced, non-technical palette of options, I have refined the skill of choosing the right option. At almost every point during the match, I attack safely because I attack only when the right timing and spacing occurs; I block every opposing attack because I know what he can do and I cover all his possible attacking options. He thinks I'm "amazingly fast" at Smash, but I'm merely covering all fronts at all times.
And that's a skill that has nothing to do with "technicality" or "mindgames," but makes a world of difference. In fact, it's the principal difference between me and an everyday scrub; it's the principal difference between Mew2King and me. So it's inaccurate to interpret the game in a tech skill / mindgames dichotomy even IF the term is clearly defined!
So what can you do to prevent either the confusion of the first point or the inaccuracy of the second?
-- cease to use the term "mindgames." "Guessing games" and "manipulation" are preferable. And please please please please PLEASE, never use "mindgames" as a VERB. It makes me physically cringe. I'm not kidding.
-- upgrade your understanding of the game. It's not about "tech skill vs. mindgames." It's about the OPTIONS of a SITUATION. If you have a question on how to use Marth, you'll get much more fruitful answers asking questions about a specific situation (i.e. "How do I avoid Sheik's grab if she waveshielded into my range during a shffl'd nair") than if you clutter up discussion with "mindgames" and "tech skills" talk.
---- this means when you're helping another person's video, the solution to their problems is never "improve your tech skill." It is, "well he always throws our a shffl'd aerial at you, and this situation is tough if you insist on countering with ground-based attacks. A better option is shielding more often, giving you the opportunity to shield grab or short hop from shield if their attack hits your shield).
I'm sleepy now. I'll respond to your questions tomorrow. Anyways, it's my opinion that this talk is long dead and there's not much more to the topic than I'm posting here. Avoid the term and learn the game more precisely!
(1) it's an vague term that leads to vague, vapid discussion:
(2) perhaps because the term is so vague, Smashers interpret the game in two parts, "technical skill" and "mindgames." This dichotomy is incorrect, even if we assume that the Smasher has a clear perception of "mindgames" as "the manipulation of the opponent's choices to the Smasher's advantage."
Why? Because Smash is a game of options. Neither "technical skill" nor "mindgames" accounts for the player's mechanism of choosing one of these options. And this skill is the most important! A good Smasher chooses options that stand well against any of the opponent's counter-options.
Let's consider an example; I'm playing against a non-tournament player (who nonetheless has years of experience with the game). I voluntarily forgo wavedashing, l-canceling and short hopping, setting my technical capacity equal with his. And I certainly have no insight onto his mind, so "mindgames" certainly don't auger in my favor. Yet I win with ease. How do I do it? It's because even with a reduced, non-technical palette of options, I have refined the skill of choosing the right option. At almost every point during the match, I attack safely because I attack only when the right timing and spacing occurs; I block every opposing attack because I know what he can do and I cover all his possible attacking options. He thinks I'm "amazingly fast" at Smash, but I'm merely covering all fronts at all times.
And that's a skill that has nothing to do with "technicality" or "mindgames," but makes a world of difference. In fact, it's the principal difference between me and an everyday scrub; it's the principal difference between Mew2King and me. So it's inaccurate to interpret the game in a tech skill / mindgames dichotomy even IF the term is clearly defined!
So what can you do to prevent either the confusion of the first point or the inaccuracy of the second?
-- cease to use the term "mindgames." "Guessing games" and "manipulation" are preferable. And please please please please PLEASE, never use "mindgames" as a VERB. It makes me physically cringe. I'm not kidding.
-- upgrade your understanding of the game. It's not about "tech skill vs. mindgames." It's about the OPTIONS of a SITUATION. If you have a question on how to use Marth, you'll get much more fruitful answers asking questions about a specific situation (i.e. "How do I avoid Sheik's grab if she waveshielded into my range during a shffl'd nair") than if you clutter up discussion with "mindgames" and "tech skills" talk.
---- this means when you're helping another person's video, the solution to their problems is never "improve your tech skill." It is, "well he always throws our a shffl'd aerial at you, and this situation is tough if you insist on countering with ground-based attacks. A better option is shielding more often, giving you the opportunity to shield grab or short hop from shield if their attack hits your shield).
I'm sleepy now. I'll respond to your questions tomorrow. Anyways, it's my opinion that this talk is long dead and there's not much more to the topic than I'm posting here. Avoid the term and learn the game more precisely!
Skler
Smash Master
If you do something to bait an action you are confusing the opponent and thereby using "mindgames". Every button you press isn't a mindgame, that's called playing. Doing something (or not doing something) to confuse the opponent is a "mindgame". If the opponent suspects something and you do something entirely different you are using "mindgames". I don't like the term mindgames, it's stupid and is just a blanket term used for **** near everything.
@Gustav, you can't actually believe things "just happen" in Melee. Otherwise everyone would win pretty much equally, low tiers would always get ***** sideways and how good you are would be based on the options available, knowledge of those options and reaction speed.
@Gustav, you can't actually believe things "just happen" in Melee. Otherwise everyone would win pretty much equally, low tiers would always get ***** sideways and how good you are would be based on the options available, knowledge of those options and reaction speed.
flaco
The Terminator
mind games do exist example
You know that they have tier list in melle right example god tier fox ,falco,sheik,marth and so on right?
Well if your using marth you need to know mindgames to beat a sheik or a fox or falco,becuase if you don't your gonna lose because of the tier list
thier goes the endgames
you need to have more mind games to beat a higher tier character
You know that they have tier list in melle right example god tier fox ,falco,sheik,marth and so on right?
Well if your using marth you need to know mindgames to beat a sheik or a fox or falco,becuase if you don't your gonna lose because of the tier list
thier goes the endgames
you need to have more mind games to beat a higher tier character
There are definitely different types of mind games, but basically a mind game is getting the opponent to do what you want them to do to your advantage.
If you feint (by wave dashing, dash-dancing, float-canceling or whatever technique you use) and get your opponent to drop their guard, that's a mind game.
If you trash-talk to get someone to go berserk and attack alot, that's a mind game.
I have a friend who's obsessed with playing the game "the right way", and learning how to play without using certain advanced tactics because "that's not the way the game is meant to be played". That person has willingly handed an advantage to the opponent by limiting their play options, and has effectively mind-gamed himself.
If you feint (by wave dashing, dash-dancing, float-canceling or whatever technique you use) and get your opponent to drop their guard, that's a mind game.
If you trash-talk to get someone to go berserk and attack alot, that's a mind game.
I have a friend who's obsessed with playing the game "the right way", and learning how to play without using certain advanced tactics because "that's not the way the game is meant to be played". That person has willingly handed an advantage to the opponent by limiting their play options, and has effectively mind-gamed himself.
Winston
Smash Master
Sure. Although knowledge of those options constitutes a large part of what we usually talk of as "mindgames"... like, I'm sure you've heard m2k say something about mindgames not being that important, but rather just playing smart.
I mean I concede the point; you're right. I just typed that first post rather lazily cause I thought it was funny that people were trying to argue for their definitions by explaining to cort how the game works.
The Last Dragon
Smash Apprentice
The one who controls the mindgames...CONTROLS THE GAME!!!
JonBeBonanza
Smash Lord
I agree that their are different types of mind games (like you mentioned talking), and that's because their are different types. But i disagree when you say "a mind game is getting the opponent to do what you want them to do to your advantage". To me that seems more like manipulation rather than "trickery". You can manipulate your opponent by predicting what they're going to do, but thats not a mind game. For example if i jump to the edge while my opponent is going to recover, and i know they're going to overshoot onto the stage, so i get on stage while they are still landing, and KO. That's not a mind game but rather knowing what was going to happed, and taking advantage of that.