There was no bounce back mechanic (like seriously wtf?)
Based Dancer
thank ****ing god lol
Might have not lynched him had he claimed correctly cause no scum claims lynch manipulator
very, very much this
I said as much in the QT. Not gonna lie and say I definitely would have gone elsewhere with a proper claim, but when he claimed the same name as you guys I was like lol **** this no way Im giving him a pass on that
w.r.t bounce back; My point was that there were any number of possibilities for laundry wasn't seen visiting. One could not assume that the mod was familiar with the golden rule and handling NAR. If it's not mentioned in the rules, there's no reason to assume it. And you shouldn't assume the mod fits into your ideal of perfection. Just the same, I've never heard of passives being roleblocked, but we didn't make the assumption that we couldn't be. I find it odd that the green room peeps felt that it should be obvious to Werekill that Laundry was scum because he wasn't seen visiting. It was certainly very very suspicious, but it wasn't absolutely condemning in my opinion.
Not following NAR I think is on an entirely different tier than simply allowing passives to be roleblocked.
A roleblocker at its core has one function: stop someone else's role from working. The rolename makes that pretty clear. If you told someone who had never played mafia before that that was what an RBer did, it would be perfectly logical for them to conclude that the RBer can stop both active and passive roles. The "passive role immunity" distinction is entirely arbitrary IMO, and actually one that I do not follow in my games. Roleblocker in my setups 100% negates any resolution of any ability that the targetted player had, bar none. I also always place RBers at the very top of NAR since I think it's stupid not to, as you're just artificially granting people un RB-able status if you place them ahed of the RBer which is ******** IMO. If your only ability in the game is to be able to stop others from using their powers, it makes no sense to grant people arbitrary immunity just because you decided to resolve them first, when RBer can ALWAYS be resolved first and be compliant with NAR. /minirantover
But by contrast, that bounce back mechanic VIOLATES NAR, as I explained in thread. NAR is a strictly logical operation that makes intuitive sense if you think about how to resolves any set of triggers that can have effects on each other. Always resolves actions that can affect other actions first. Someone who has never played mafia before can easily reason that out. It's not arbitrary. That's what sets in apart. At the end of the day though w/e, this is just mechanics discussion lol
w.r.t mass claim; I hate the form the game takes once we get to the night action revelation stage. The psychological factor of the game ceases to exist. It's no longer a detective game, but a puzzle game. I absolutely love puzzle games, I just usually play mafia for the psychological detective factor. For me the most enjoyable mafia game would be purely VTs and goons with maybe a PR on each side. If anything I feel that PRs should be stacked in mafia's favor. That way of going about the game, of course, is a personal preference and it's not always how I felt about the game. I used to be incredibly pro mass claim and always called for mass claims on D1. (Though I guess still that was because I wanted to eliminate the PR factor early on). Furthermore, I do not always go into a game with this expectation and mindset. Kat's Bingo mafia, for example, I expect to be more of a puzzle game than it is a psychological one. I also personally really enjoy making puzzle games. Death Note 2016 (dat queue fusion).
That being said, I do believe that when a game is not specifically designed to be a puzzle game, but a psychological game, that treating it as the former is a bad approach. Especially considering that the mod likely made an effort to conceal the setup and restrict town's ability to outguess. I think fundamental mafia is something that town in general needs to work on. We did this well for the first three days, and I think it would have been cool to complete the game without reverting back to the reliance on mechanical order for the answers. To me this just forestalls the results of the game. In Zombies! it merely caused town to talk in circles for three days and mislynch on one of those days; despite already having the scum pretty much figured out by Day 2. That game could have ended so much sooner without the night action inconsistencies being discussed to oblivion.
Furthermore, a person's voice and paper trail become absolutely worthless once the game becomes about mechanical inconsistencies and modmetaing. Despite Xatres playing incredibly town, he was lynched because he had (or thought he had) the same role name as FML and because of the OPness of both of those roles having the same alignment. There is likely nothing he could have said that would have prevented his lynch because the game was in the "mechanical inconsistency" stage. The same way, there was almost nothing that Ashemu or I could do to prevent being lynched merely because "that role makes no sense" or "that role is sketchy as hell". In other words, because it was a unique role that hasn't been presented before. Our entire play was ignored and we were ridiculed for even bringing it up.
I disagree with a lot of this. I don't think a massclaim makes the game cease to be a psychological one at all. It just adds another dimension to the game.
There's a lot of psychological elements that go along with a mass claim. You get to analyze people's night choices and see if they line up with what they're been espousing in the thread. You get to analyze the very role a person has claimed and see if it lines up with their play. Mafia are often forced to make fake claims, so having a mass claim often forces the scum to make moves that they don't want to make. Every time you do that, you've added to their paper trail. That's really all a role claim is, another piece of information that you view alongside a person's voting/argumentative paper trail.
Sometimes people's claims line up perfectly with their play and what you thought was scummy play could turn out to be play motivated by a PR. Sometimes people play super townie all game but then you hear their claim and the direction you saw them take early in the game makes no ****ing sense based on what they should've known or thought about other slots based on their role. ALL of that is psychological.
Of course there are definitely more mechanical "puzzle solving" elements that come with mass claiming. I'm not gonna deny that. But you aren't trading one kind of analysis for the other. You get the benefit of being able to do both by paying for it by risking the lives of your most powerful night assets. This game just made it seem more like the "mechanical" side of mass claiming was the most important because we ran into so many contradictions with claimed roles/night actions. Obviously when you run into inconsistencies that type of discussion is going to dominate the thread because inconsistencies are the hallmark of scum involvement. You might not like it but Im sorry, thats just how the game is, and forsaking that option as a way to catch scum in their missteps is quite frankly sub-optimal AND anti-town play.
I mean lets assume we never massclaimed. Assuming that Were never caught laundry by tracking him, WL could have very possibly convinced the town that he was one of the most townie slots in the game. Not saying it would have been easy, but it certainly would have been MUCH easier for him to win the game without a blatant track on him saying he went no where when he claimed to have done something that night. Had we not massclaimed, WL would never have had to make the hard choice of how to fake claim and in what capacity. When the scum are FORCED to lie like that, it creates opportunities for town. It creates openings in their defense so to speak. A mass claim can often provide the means to punish those mistakes. And like I said, all you're paying for that opportunity is risking the lives of your best night assets. In this game, it paid off handily.
Also, in your own words:
A VT claim could have sent you to endgame.
That's what I'm talking about. Very different game without the massclaim IMO, and one that is much more winnable for the solo scum. WL had to make a hard choice and as it turns out, he went for the riskier claim with potentially bigger payoff (as it theoretically gave him a way to manipulate the town's reads and lynch direction better), and it backfired. That's part of mafia, and town has to look for these types of plays and try to punish them when they can.
@
#HBC | FrozeηFlame
You kept the game in line and stuck to the fundamentals up until D4. This is the first game I've played with you in a long while. Hopefully next time we can be more ηline. Your asteristic zeal made me raise an eyebrow at points because it's own form of emotional appeal. You played a pretty solid game though. Expressing myself is something I really need to work on. This is consistently a problem. Many times you would quote something of mine and say how weird it was and then proceed to say the same thing in a more articulate manner. Like when you questioned my "Now we have to lynch a PR
" and then proceeded to lynch a PR. A Fro-Zen hydra + avatar consisting of Yoh Asakura with an Afro is so much in order. I do think we complement each other as town when we
are ηline. Such as Soul Calibur Mafia.
Yeah it was entertaining to me being so at odds with your slot all the time yet being confident you were town. Had you not been so on point with your votes and treatment of the scum slots I definitely think we would have TvT'd each other to oblivion. It worked out well though because it actually motivated me to be more proactive about pushing the lynches I wanted through, because I knew that I was absolutely not the towniest slot and that people wouldn't just follow me blindly with arguably THE towniest slot naysaying my every move lol.
I can dig on a hydra sometime. Hmu for sure when you're down
Overall shoutouts to my townbros for cleaning this game up ez pz. I really think we made all the right lynches (though I am sad that Xatres ****ed up his claim and contributed to us losing the perfect victory [not to imply I didnt have a role in that too, definitely not blameless here]). I think this game is a great example of how to take advantage of a strong start in a game and play like you have the lead. We let our paranoia almost lead to self destruction in Flavourless. In this game we didn't let the paranoia set in and just cut the problem slots since we could afford to. Worked out wonderfully since those questionmark slots were all scum but IMO even if they hadn't been it still would have put us in a good position to make the right plays in the late game.
Thanks to dancer for hosting! I had a lot of fun in this game, and I thought the setup was very fair!
#HBC | Nabe dude listen you were brilliant n **** in flavourless with that whole fakeclaim doc and recant for obvtown clear in the face of impending mislynch due to deliberately ****ty play but cmon man I dont wanna have to go through that dance again. come play plz my brain and gut are just not ready for your love games bro
