MWC-E #2: Smash-a-Mania, Lexington, KY Nov. 14th

[nibroc100]

Awesome thanks.

What are starters and counterpicks?

Excuse my ignorance please.

 

[Overswarm]

Also, your logic is ********. Just because you think playing with more stages adds depth to the game in the long run doesn't mean it's a "fact" that it makes the game better. You could make the same argument with things like playing with items and other equally ******** things. No one showed me that stages like Bridge of Eldin weren't fit for competitive play. It's pretty **** obvious.

I play tested along with other people, and played it in tournament on several occasions. It actually wasn't that bad; it just had a permanent "Luigi's Mansion" style "I live forever" clause added to it, which meant camping the side of the stage was incredibly beneficial after the first KO. D3's CG, Diddy's nanner lock, tilt locks, etc., also all equaled KOs at all times.

It wasn't obvious to anyone, nor should it have been; it was actually one of the more enjoyed stages, it just had mandatory 8 minute matches and almost mandated edge camping by the time we got around voting for it and we all felt it should go.

You're entitled to your opinion but don't act like it's better than anyone elses. It isn't.

It's not an opinion, Tyr.

In any game you get, the more you have available (more characters, more stages, more moves, more cancels, more whatever), the deeper the game is. Removing things makes the game more shallow. This is just kind of the default.

Items are removed due to their random properties; exploding capsules in melee were the nail in the coffin then, and while items have more of a chance in Brawl than they would in Melee, the extreme power of all the items in addition to their ability to spawn in the air and be caught mid-move (essentially having you catch an item randomly) and not spawn on a timer make them too random. It's one thing for D3's gordo; that's controlled. Whenever he over-bs, there is a chance. With items, it could be anywhere at any moment.

 

[Tyr_03]

You said that your way of doing things makes the game better. We can make a lot of things deeper by adding things to them. We could make chess deeper by having to balance a plate on your head while juggling pins during each of your moves but we don't. It would take a **** ton more skill to play chess if this were the case. But we don't do that. Because it doesn't make the game better. It just tests different things. When we play chess we want to test how well you can outsmart your opponent to beat them following a set of rules. We don't want to test your balance and dexterity.

Similarly, when we play smash, we want to test whether you can outsmart your opponent and beat them by hitting them with the set of moves your given. Most of us don't want to test whether you can avoid hazards or capitalize on one feature of a stage such as a walk off or wall.

So yeah, if that kind of "depth" makes the game better to you, then that's your opinion. It is not fact.

 

[ShadowPhoenix951]

Awesome thanks.

What are starters and counterpicks?

Excuse my ignorance please.

Don't worry about it, everyone goes through this when they first start attending tournaments. We're just glad to have you in on it. But how it works is, basically, at the start of a game, you sit next to your opponent, and both select a character. Then, you each take turns turning off a stage from the starter stage list, until 1 is left, and you play the first match on that stage. Then, the loser of the game selects a stage from the counterpick list, then winner of the first game picks their character, then loser picks their character.


Also, Tyr and Lain - I hate to tell you, but this is OS's circuit. What I see from OS is far less selecting stages he wants on, and more just experimenting with the list. If he discovers that some stages are broken, they'll be off next tourney, circuit, or whenever he modifies it. More experimentation and trying to make the game more fun. As opposed to "T.T these stages suck for my character" which is the vibe I'm getting from you.

 

[Tyr_03]

I've already stated that most of these stages are GOOD for my character and I still think they're dumb.

And if you think OS is going to ban anything (except maybe Metaknight, obvious hypocracy is obvious,) you've got another thing coming.

 

[Overswarm]

You said that your way of doing things makes the game better. We can make a lot of things deeper by adding things to them. We could make chess deeper by having to balance a plate on your head while juggling pins during each of your moves but we don't. It would take a **** ton more skill to play chess if this were the case. But we don't do that. Because it doesn't make the game better. It just tests different things. When we play chess we want to test how well you can outsmart your opponent to beat them following a set of rules. We don't want to test your balance and dexterity.

Similarly, when we play smash, we want to test whether you can outsmart your opponent and beat them by hitting them with the set of moves your given. Most of us don't want to test whether you can avoid hazards or capitalize on one feature of a stage such as a walk off or wall.

So yeah, if that kind of "depth" makes the game better to you, then that's your opinion. It is not fact.

You are the only one using the word "better".

We're given a very specific group of stages to work with. Whittling them down is inevitable, and we have two ways to do it:

1. With evidence

2. Whatever we happen to feel like

Some people would prefer that we'd play with all the stages on the SBR rulelist on at every tournament. Some people would prefer FD only. I'm not about to pick one side or the other or even allow one side to lean all the way to one side during a circuit I'm a part of without evidence; #1 is the only way to actually keep a consistent ban list, otherwise you have people just banning what they think is "gay".

And if you think OS is going to ban anything (except maybe Metaknight, obvious hypocracy is obvious,) you've got another thing coming.

Obvious ignorance is obvious.

Why do you think I consistently test stages and seem to know more about stages than anyone else? I actively look for things to be broken on these stages and familiarize myself with them. If you're willing to ban stages just because you are uncomfortable on them, don't think they're "fun", or think they are "gay", I'm going to have to disagree. Show me what's bad about these stages, otherwise I could just say "chaing grabs are gay, all chain grabs are banned" and there would be no recourse other than "nuh uh!".

Show evidence that a stage should be banned, not popular opinion or half-hearted attempts at explaining why I should want the same things you do.

 

[CR4SH]

Distant planet is gay.

I just thought of a good question. I think answering it could help people actually get somewhere in this discussion instead of just *****ing at eachother.

Players A and B are playing a game on a stage that is neutral in that matchup (impossible, but necessary for the sake of argument). Player A is slightly better at reading and baiting and general smash than player B, and all things being equal, he would win. However player B is better at the STAGE in question. Player B wins.

Is that ok with you?

 

[Airborne]

god dammit. i just had a whole bunch of **** about this stage discussion written that was ****in' scholarly, and i try to click on another tab, and i end up clicking on youtube on my bookmark toolbar. **** in caps.

i might try to write it later, but i'm too pissed to try again atm.

but yeah, in other news, y'all should check out my location. let's hope this *****in' doesn't give me another painful sinus infection.

 

[Overswarm]

Distant planet is gay.

I just thought of a good question. I think answering it could help people actually get somewhere in this discussion instead of just *****ing at eachother.

Players A and B are playing a game on a stage that is neutral in that matchup (impossible, but necessary for the sake of argument). Player A is slightly better at reading and baiting and general smash than player B, and all things being equal, he would win. However player B is better at the STAGE in question. Player B wins.

Is that ok with you?

Of course. Stage knowledge, whether it be basic things like when the klap trap comes on Japes or at what % a d-smash kills at the edge of smashville in comparison to the edge of battlefield or FD or more advanced knowledge like the exact spots to cancel MK's over-b on a ledge or the timing of hazards, is just as important as baiting, spacing, tech skill, character knowledge, etc., etc.

 

[Tyr_03]

My way makes the better game in the long run; this is not opinion, it is fact.

Maybe you should actually read what you post. You said your way makes the game better and I strongly disagree.

And I was pointing out the fact that you were the leader for banning Metaknight and just said that removing things from the game, stages or characters, takes away depth from the game which according to you is a very bad thing. You pretty much wanted Metaknight banned because he ***** your character. And now you're saying we want stages banned because it's bad for our characters (which in my case it isn't.)

I don't think anything you do is for the good of the community or the metagame. Mostly I think you like pissing people off and no one cares enough to take away the little power you have as circuit manager or whatever you are. It's sad that some people will actually listen to what you say because you're a good player not realizing that you're completely full of ****.

 

[Y.b.M.]

Haha.... Man o Man, them God Kais don't hold back... Gotta Love em...

Oh and BTW I need a partner for this event since Lou and Count aren't coming... So Anyone wanna team...?

 

[Doctor X]

One does not simply argue with Overswarm. It's like walking into Mordor.

 

[Overswarm]

Maybe you should actually read what you post. You said your way makes the game better and I strongly disagree.

And I was pointing out the fact that you were the leader for banning Metaknight and just said that removing things from the game, stages or characters, takes away depth from the game which according to you is a very bad thing. You pretty much wanted Metaknight banned because he ***** your character. And now you're saying we want stages banned because it's bad for our characters (which in my case it isn't.)

I don't think anything you do is for the good of the community or the metagame. Mostly I think you like pissing people off and no one cares enough to take away the little power you have as circuit manager or whatever you are. It's sad that some people will actually listen to what you say because you're a good player not realizing that you're completely full of ****.

If you recall, I picked up MK around the same time.

He's also my main now. I've been doing fairly well.

If you'd also recall, the "ban MK" vote was down the middle in the public option and actually had a majority in the SBR for one of the votes. It was hardly a minority opinion, and was most certainly not unheard of.

Either your reasoning capacity is limited, or your reading comprehension lacks depth, because I never said lack of depth makes a game necessarily worse (nor did I make strawman arguments involving chess and plates). Banning stages, any of them at all, removes depth. Despite this, I am against making Spear Pillar or 75m a legal stage. It is when the stage is justifiable that it adds depth to the game that shouldn't be removed simply because someone doesn't "like" it.

If you want to talk about inconsistencies, point out that I wanted to ban Kongo Falls in melee because I and I alone was dominating players way out of my skill bracket on it as long as they weren't Fox. That's actually against my personal philosophy; I want to see it happen in tournament at many levels of play, not just some kid playing $1 MMs against people who'd never play against the stage. That'd be more of a contradiction in this case. Then again, it'd go against your statement that I never would ban a stage, so you might not want to.

It isn't really surprising to me that you have yet to say anything of substance. You've attacked my character, you've attacked my past, but you've yet to give any reasons of substance because, as always, the reasoning of people who attack any ruleset because it's too liberal is "it's gay". If a particular stage is broken, make a video and show it or abuse it in tournament. If all you've got is "Well that stage is dumb" and variations thereof, just drop it. I'm not interested in the slightest. It's one thing to lack stage knowledge and be frustrated about stages you don't like... I understand and accept this. It's not uncommon to be unskilled in smash and have the make-believe mindset that playing on smashville only will make you a pro (it doesn't, it just makes you better on smashville; the key is to play a lot against several people). It is practically unheard of to be both and still ***** because the ruleset isn't the way you want it; this is the equivalent of someone telling us we should play with items because playing without items is "gay", despite the fact that the person has never practiced without items and wasn't good with them to begin with. You don't bring any authority to the table, nor any reasoning. I posted exactly how to get a stage banned with specific instructions. They aren't hard to follow. Give it a shot if you think a stage should be banned, and show tournament evidence.

If you want to put words in my mouth, throw out logical fallacies, or just be a MI-wannabe, just drop it. You're not as good at it as the others.

 

[Count]

Team with ybm hes an amazing teammate!

Wish I could go to this.

I'm enjoying reading these arguments also =)

 

[Today]

): It's too bad they have to argue...

 

[Infern Angelis]

): It's too bad they have to argue...

im sure today is secretly like

 

[Tyr_03]

The reason I attack your character is because it's the only thing I have a problem with. If you actually wanted to test things or experiment for the good of the community I really wouldn't care. But the fact of the matter is that you're just being a huge ****. Your opinions are just as valid as anyone elses but the way you force them down everyone's throat is disgusting and annoying as ****. I'm not going to change your mind and you're not going to change my mind. The only reason I post when you say something stupid is so that people who don't know any better don't try to follow your crackpot logic thinking that you're actually interested in anything good for anyone. Hopefully enough people will realize how full of **** you are that you won't be put into positions of authority in the future.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

The reason I attack your character is because it's the only thing I have a problem with. If you actually wanted to test things or experiment for the good of the community I really wouldn't care. But the fact of the matter is that you're just being a huge ****. Your opinions are just as valid as anyone elses but the way you force them down everyone's throat is disgusting and annoying as ****. I'm not going to change your mind and you're not going to change my mind. The only reason I post when you say something stupid is so that people who don't know any better don't try to follow your crackpot logic thinking that you're actually interested in anything good for anyone. Hopefully enough people will realize how full of **** you are that you won't be put into positions of authority in the future.

He isn't necessarily "forcing them down everyone's throat", to be honest. You have to consider that running this circuit by himself and saying "you're all just gonna ****in do what i say" won't work, and isn't what he did. There are quite a few TOs, myself included, that agreed to being a part of this circuit. If they want to leave because they don't like the stages or the way he's running things, they can do so, and quite a few have. But if they agree to the rules, and decide to test them out for the sake of the circuit, then it's their tournament, not Overswarm's. Xisin or Mayling can easily decide they don't want this tournament to be a part of the circuit anymore. The stages go to whatever they want them to be, most of the people originally going to the tournament will go, maybe more. But they haven't done that, and probably wont. Complaining and arguing against OS about this is pointless. It's the TO's decision of whether or not he wants to use a conservative stage list or use the circuit's stages. Not Overswarm's.

 

[Mister Eric]

Yeah, OS' opinons are pretty supreme. I remember this one time Morehead wanted to experiment with the infinite grab rule and OS' only scholarly remark to that was:
"scrub tourney
not bringing cincy"

but then again, experimenting is okay... amagad i just don't know what to think anymore111beep!

 

[Airborne]

hey, YbM, if exile's friend comes and wants to do doubles, i could team with you! ;D
not sure how well it'd go though, since i haven't teamed with someone as good as you before. :X

 

[exiled0ne]

hey, YbM, if exile's friend comes and wants to do doubles, i could team with you! ;D
not sure how well it'd go though, since i haven't teamed with someone as good as you before. :X

He isn't. But if you'd like to team with Y.b.M go for it

 

[Airborne]

He isn't. But if you'd like to team with Y.b.M go for it

heh, i'd probably bog him down. i'm not very confident in teams anymore, although i can stock tank like a monster if i'm havin' a good day. :X

 

[CR4SH]

Yeah, OS' opinons are pretty supreme. I remember this one time Morehead wanted to experiment with the infinite grab rule and OS' only scholarly remark to that was:
"scrub tourney
not bringing cincy"

Eric's the champ. He deeed it.

 

[Y.b.M.]

Umm.. If I'm not teaming with someone I have a good chance of making money with, I'm not going to enter Doubles... I'm not going to gamble on this. You know I got lots of love no homo.... So yea....that's my take on it...

But I'm still looking for a partner..

 

[Rendonte]

Oh yeah!!! I'm definitly coming. I'll be bringing my wii and a tv.

 

[Tyr_03]

Assuming I have enough cash, I'll need a partner for doubles for this too.

 

[clowsui]

Look everybody who intends to argue against OS is ********. There's no way that you can actually convince him to do anything because no matter what happens in the end he'll either claim that he's right, claim that the other person doesn't know how to use logic, use cute little one-liners that are supposed to encompass his entire argument, or just claim that he doesn't care and that nothing anyone says will faze him etc. - so no matter what you say or do in the end he can just make it so that he's trolling you.

Furthermore, even if you host your own tournament/circuit [event=] on the same day, chances are you will cancel it because you don't want to divide the community in any way. So Overswarm will just win because he doesn't actually give two ****s about whether he divides the community or not since: 1. He's still alright financially, so it won't hurt him at all since he doesn't take the game very seriously 2. He knows that people will cancel theirs first because they know he won't cancel his for the cause of unification. 3. He doesn't actually give half a crap about anybody's viewpoints except for his own because in his mind, others' logic is supporting an incorrect, illogical and ultimately detrimental course of action in 90% of cases (and the other 10% he just trolls/claims he doesn't care while debating with them)[/event]

 

[Airborne]

Look everybody who intends to argue against OS is ********. There's no way that you can actually convince him to do anything because no matter what happens in the end he'll either claim that he's right, claim that the other person doesn't know how to use logic, use cute little one-liners that are supposed to encompass his entire argument, or just claim that he doesn't care and that nothing anyone says will faze him etc. - so no matter what you say or do in the end he can just make it so that he's trolling you.

Furthermore, even if you host your own tournament/circuit [event=] on the same day, chances are you will cancel it because you don't want to divide the community in any way. So Overswarm will just win because he doesn't actually give two ****s about whether he divides the community or not since: 1. He's still alright financially, so it won't hurt him at all since he doesn't take the game very seriously 2. He knows that people will cancel theirs first because they know he won't cancel his for the cause of unification. 3. He doesn't actually give half a crap about anybody's viewpoints except for his own because in his mind, others' logic is supporting an incorrect, illogical and ultimately detrimental course of action in 90% of cases (and the other 10% he just trolls/claims he doesn't care while debating with them)[/event]

[event=] WHY. IN. THE. HELL. DID YOU HAVE TO BRING THIS BACK UP.... there was no **** use reviving this argument.... we're on a different topic. [/event]

 

[CR4SH]

You can't win an argument with os. You can be right, you can have the superior argument, but you can't win.

Because OS doesn't argue to be right or convince you of anything. He argues for fun, and no matter how well you're doing, he's still having fun. Trying to make a legitimate point in this type of situation is like beating your head against a wall.

It's HOPELESS QQQQQQQQQQQ.

 

[ShadowPhoenix951]

YbM, depending on whether or not my partner shows, I may be able to team with you.

Also - Why are people bringing this up still? It was done with. No use reviving a pointless argument.

 

[Count]

I just want to say that I don't agree that OS doesn't want what is best for the community.

OS has done more than probably anyone as far as getting interest about smash in the midwest. And if he only cared about winning money he wouldn't host big circuit events because tbh if MI is there its tough for him to make much of a profit.

So although he arguments may be stupid/he's stubborn/etc, I think its just plain wrong to say he doesn't want to enlarge the MW:E brawl community.

 

[Tyr_03]

lol you don't know him well enough Count. And it's not about money.

 

[Mister Eric]

I'm sorry, but I'd rather at least voice my opinion than to accept the fact that one person should solely shape the game ^_^

 

[Overswarm]

lol you don't know him well enough Count. And it's not about money.

Count actually knows me better than you do. He even sees me more often and you live in the same area o_O

 

[Tyr_03]

Turns out I probably won't be going to this afterall. Plans might change but it's unlikely. Sorry Xisin.

 

[Y.b.M.]

YbM, depending on whether or not my partner shows, I may be able to team with you.

Also - Why are people bringing this up still? It was done with. No use reviving a pointless argument.

I'll pass... but thanks anyway

 

[nibroc100]

Granted I don't know any of you and have yet to play in a circuit event but why not test both sides of the argument? Hold another tournament (after the one in Lexington on the 14th) with the opposing stage set and just see how it things go. Unbiasedly, I don't think this argument will be resolved and will obviously only lead to more problems. I'm hoping to become a regular at these events and I'd hate to not get the chance to play because of stupid political bull****. Honestly, the fact that someone can hold a Smash Bros Tournament is awesome in itself, I mean I'd hate to see the circuit fail due to all this before I get to even play. Again, not my place but just wanted to throw my two cents in take it for what it's worth.

 

[Today]

Granted I don't know any of you and have yet to play in a circuit event but why not test both sides of the argument? Hold another tournament (after the one in Lexington on the 14th) with the opposing stage set and just see how it things go. Unbiasedly, I don't think this argument will be resolved and will obviously only lead to more problems. I'm hoping to become a regular at these events and I'd hate to not get the chance to play because of stupid political bull****. Honestly, the fact that someone can hold a Smash Bros Tournament is awesome in itself, I mean I'd hate to see the circuit fail due to all this before I get to even play. Again, not my place but just wanted to throw my two cents in take it for what it's worth.

D'aw! That's nice of you! We had a tournament with the stages before. I think majority disliked them but there were a select few who were content with them! I don't think there's much you can say or do, though.. haha. But thank you! Lol.

 

[Tyr_03]

Smashboards is for discussion. Tournaments are for gaming.

Everyone's pretty chill at tourneys even if we don't always agree on things on here. I wouldn't worry too much about it.

 

[Xisin]

Granted I don't know any of you and have yet to play in a circuit event but why not test both sides of the argument? Hold another tournament (after the one in Lexington on the 14th) with the opposing stage set and just see how it things go. Unbiasedly, I don't think this argument will be resolved and will obviously only lead to more problems. I'm hoping to become a regular at these events and I'd hate to not get the chance to play because of stupid political bull****. Honestly, the fact that someone can hold a Smash Bros Tournament is awesome in itself, I mean I'd hate to see the circuit fail due to all this before I get to even play. Again, not my place but just wanted to throw my two cents in take it for what it's worth.

I wouldn't worry about the current discussion hurting the circuit, just about everyone is nice to each other at tournaments in or out of the circuit. The circuit won't fail at all because of this, people just want to express their views and sicuss the tournament which is what this thread is for really. Been going to these tournaments for a over a year now so I'm pretty sure nothing bad will happen because of this.