Ness Combo Discussion: Week 3: Nair Combos

[xoxokev]

THIS WEEK WE WILL BE DISCUSSING:

NAIR COMBOS

NESS COMBO DISCUSSION

Things you can do to help this list be as comprehensive as possible:

• Rate the combos on how feasible and reliable they are
  • Please use the 1-5 rating system
• Discuss the circumstances under which the combos will work
• Discuss possible followups
• Discuss the % range at which the combos will work

In this thread we will be posting and discussing "combos", or strings of consecutive attacks; followups; and % ranges and circumstances at which the combos will work. Max damage = moves are fresh and sweetspotted.

Feasibility

capability of being done or carried out
Reliability

yielding the same or similar results

KEY:
Prefix u- = up
Prefix d- = down
Prefix f- = forward
DAS = double aerial shuffle
SH = short hop
DJ = double jump
FS = footstool
FF = fast fall

Utilt Combos

Utilt combos work best when initiated below 10%. After 10%, utilt will no longer combo into itself. When used at higher %’s, the opponent will be hit upwards into the air.

• utilt > utilt
  • Max Damage: 14%
• utilt > utilt > pivot pk fire
  • Max Damage:
• utilt > upward-angled ftilt
  • Max Damage:
• utilt > (shield)grab
  • Max Damage:
• utilt > SH nair
  • Max Damage: 18%
• utilt > SH bair
  • Max Damage:
• utilt > SH fair
  • Max Damage:
• utilt > SH fair > ftilt
  • Max Damage:
• utilt > pk thunder
  • Max Damage:

Dtilt Combos

Most dtilt combos require the opponent to trip in order for the combo to follow through, and can work at any % due to the move’s low knockback. There is a sweetspot which allows Ness to always make the opponent trip; however, the sweetspot is very small. It is around Ness’ ankle.

• dtilt > dtilt
  • Max Damage: 8%
  • Notes:
    • can lock when opponent is against wall
    • can "steal" recovering opponent's second jump
• dtilt > trip > fsmash
  • Max Damage: 26%
• dtilt > trip > usmash
  • Max Damage: 21%
• dtilt > ftilt
  • Max Damage:
• dtilt > utilt
  • Max Damage:
• dtilt > jab combo
  • Max Damage: 13%
• dtilt > SH nair
  • Max Damage:
• dtilt > SH fair
  • Max Damage:
• dtilt > dash grab
  • Max Damage:

Nair Combos

for the first nair to combo into anything, it must be initiated at low %; however, the second part of the nair combos can be done at any % if the first nair is sheilded

• DAS nair-nair
  • Max Damage: 22%
• DAS nair-uair > utilt
  • Max Damage: 31%
• DAS nair-fair
  • Max Damage: 13%
• SH nair > DJ/FS nair
  • Max Damage: 22%

Dair Combos

• SH dair > utilt*
  • Max Damage: 19%
• FF dair > jab lock*
  • Max Damage: 90% (across FD)
• SH dair > SH nair
  • Max Damage: 23%
• SH dair > SH dair
  • Max Damage: 24%

*opponent must be spiked

Bair Combos

• SH bair > DJ bair
  • Max Damage: 30%
• SH bair > DJ nair
  • Max Damage: 26%
• DAS bair-uair
  • Max Damage: 28%
• DAS bair-nair
  • Max Damage: 26%
  • DAS bair-fair
    • Max Damage: 17%

PK Fire Combos

only work when opponents are stuck in pk fire

• pk fire > dash > pk fire
  • Max Damage: ~44%
• pk fire > fsmash
  • Max Damage: ~42%
• pk fire > SH dair
  • Max Damage: ~30%
• pk fire > hyphen smash
  • Max Damage: ~33%
• pk fire > grab
  • fthrow
    • Max Damage: ~25%
  • dthrow
    • Max Damage: ~23%
  • uthrow
  • bthrow
• CAZCOMBO aerial pk fire > DJ dair
  • Max Damage: death

PK Thunder Combos

• tail whip > pkt head
  • Max Damage: ~12%
• tail whip > pkt2
  • Max Damage: death

PK Flash Combos

• pk flash > utilt
• pk flash > uair

Please feel free to discuss any followups and include at which % range the followup is possible

 

[Uffe]

(Auto-)RAR > SH > Bair (x2) > DJ > Aerial PKF

The (Auto-) part is only there if you B-stick. RAR means Reversed Aerial Rush for those who don't know. The (x2) is there if you decide to bair twice instead of once. Otherwise bair > DJ > Aerial PKF

PKF > SH > Dair
D-tilt > U-smash
D-tilt > Neutral A (x3)

 

[xoxokev]

you can DAS bair-bair? never knew that... i'll update the list later when i get home

 

[orange/xd]

utilt>nair

 

[Uffe]

you can DAS bair-bair? never knew that... i'll update the list later when i get home

Now that I think about it, I could have written that wrong. I'll have to see if I can test it out later on. I'm kind of bad at explaining that particular "combo".

 

[StarLight]

(Auto-)RAR > SH > Bair (x2) > DJ > Aerial PKF

Favorite of mine. Just a note on it: Using the same setup for Pit's wing refresh(X set to jump, Y to Specials, or vice versa) makes this a little bit easier.

 

[Eagleye893]

1. DAS bair-nair;
2. DAS nair-(first few hits fair)>(grab/jab combo/utilt/usmash);
3. DAS fair-nair;
4. DAS bair-uair;
5. SH pkflash(uncharged)>FJ(nair/uair/bair);
6. SH nair sourspotted>(uair/bair/fair/utilt/ftilt/grab/nair/???);
7. PKT tail>PKT head;
8. SH FF'd Dair>utilt/usmash/jab/????;
9. dtilt trip>fsmash/other;
10. ....

2, 5, 8, are questionable, although im pretty sure they worked consistently for me... the SH FFd Dair needs to spike them into the ground and you must either judge where they techroll/DI to or just use the moves specified....

OH YEAH!!! After we get the list, just separate the few that are true combos into a separate part called true combos...

 

[Uffe]

Favorite of mine. Just a note on it: Using the same setup for Pit's wing refresh(X set to jump, Y to Specials, or vice versa) makes this a little bit easier.

It's a favorite of mine as well. Of course I think I wrote it out wrong.

 

[Ref]

D tilt f smash can be escaped. D tilt yo yo can't.

 

[Man of Popsicle]

FF Uair > Utilt
Footstool > Nair
PKT Tailwhip > Thunder 2 (In air)

I think that:
SH Nair > DJ Dair

 

[Phillyfanboy]

PK Fire trap > Dthrow > Fair. Max of 43% damage.

Only at low percents. They can DI out of the PK Fire and the Fair, however you don't have to Fair (any air move can work). Don't Forget to add in few grab punch for extra damage.

 

[CarVac]

bBrawl is better when it comes to PK FIre-Dthrow-Fair. PK Fire traps better, and dthrow does 14% fresh. Of course, you can get out of it by DI, but that opens you up to an uair instead of fair.

 

[Phillyfanboy]

Sadly this is Brawl. Regardless, it works and is sexy. 14% on his dthrow... wow.

 

[xoxokev]

just updated the first post. also, DAS bair-bair does not exist. please continue to discuss, and include % ranges; how often the combo works; followups; and situations in which they work. thanks for the effort everyone

 

[Bartolon]

Sometimes 2x utilt, and then pivot pk fire when they land works.

 

[xoxokev]

Sometimes 2x utilt, and then pivot pk fire when they land works.

hell yeah, that's my fav combo. usually i do utilt >utilt > pivot pkf > fsmash/throw, it racks up to about 50% when you start from 0

EDIT: found an old thread that i made a while ago
thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=231750
video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buN8rtx6xSI

 

[TheVince]

D tilt f smash can be escaped.

What if the dtilt makes them trip?

 

[Uffe]

What if the dtilt makes them trip?

Then they're screwed.

 

[Yink]

Oh boy, I suck at talking about combos but here's one I guess:

Fair > Fair > Uair > PKT (if I land on a platform, that's the only time I use it immediately)

 

[CarVac]

I like PKF > {dthrow, usmash, uthrow) > {fair, uair, bair}.
Bair > bair > double-jumped dair is win.
Fair > jab combo > fair is fun.
I find that while many of Ness's aerial chains are escapable with airdodges and are therefore not combos, he's very good at punishing airdodges. It is just as infuriating as being comboed.

 

[TheVince]

What if the dtilt makes them trip?

Then they're screwed.

I meant that if they get tripped by the dtilt, does the fsmash combo?

 

[xoxokev]

I meant that if they get tripped by the dtilt, does the fsmash combo?

yes, if they trip i'm pretty sure it's guaranteed. correct me if i'm wrong

D tilt f smash can be escaped. D tilt yo yo can't.

does dtilt have to make the opponent trip in order for this to work?

 

[Ref]

Yes.

if you trip you can roll away from the f smash

if you trip you CAN'T escape the yo yo.

 

[orange/xd]

can they escape a dtilt trip -> PKF?

 

[Delta-cod]

I like PKF > Dair > Bat. I've had it done against me and it does like, 50%. >_>''
Fair(don't hit with the end) > Grab.
FH Fair > Fair > DJ Nair/Dair. Nair works more often, but DAir is a nice finished if you push them off stage with the fairs.

While not really a combo, I've taken this from my Yoshi game and applied it to Ness:

Send the enemy into the air and Usmash charge to punish their landing. It's good to mix this up with aerial chases too.

 

[CarVac]

@Ref: Which yoyo? Chare an usmash yoyo over where they're standing?

 

[xoxokev]

i'm pretty sure he means usmash, charged or uncharged should work either way

 

[Meccs]

not sure if this counts, (since the timing is pretty hard and its pretty easy to DI out of PK Fire) but:
PK Fire > SH dair > utilt
utilt can also be usmash. I'm sure there are other moves you can do, but those are the only two moves I've actually used from that.

edit:Or has that already been covered by "PK Fire > SH dair" and it's assumed that leads into other stuff like utilt? Just tryin to help

 

[xoxokev]

thanks for your input everyone! but now i need your help in rating these combos! preferably, the ones you actually use in your own gameplay. keep in mind, you don't have to rate all of them. also, it would be nice if you wrote a small 1-sentence explanation for your rating. thanks! i really want this to be a community effort

 

[Eagleye893]

.... Why no pkflash > aerial combo? It works nearly 100% of the time if the opponent doesn't land on a platform... I've done it countless times irl and online...

Nair>fair is ****, not ***** only because the opponent can time a grab to interrupt ...fair>grab or other hit and shielding nair foils the combo.

Nair>uair is ****, because the sourspot fair will combo right into uair sometimes, but shields foil it again...

Pkt tailwhip>pkt is ****(1/2*), because it works all the time and you can control it, but messing up means free hit on you...

Pkflash uncharged > uair is ***** useful, but **(1/2*) reliable... If you can time pkflash well like me, you will get this off a lot and/or release so that you don't get hit, and the following uair can easily kill in some cases... The only problem is, you are starting with pkflash... Yeah.

Pkfire>bat is ***, but ****(1/2*) if they are well trapped in it. It racks up damage, but if you miss then it's a wasted shot... I recommend mindgamey ff sourspot bair into ftilt, if you can keep up the pillar to hit them after the sourspot bair... That is completely random... Actually, go for the dair if they are trapped in the pillar... Much more reliable....

Ummm... Off the top of my head...

Bair>djbair is ****, because a hit is good, but a miss or a shield is bad...

Fair>nair is ****ish, because fair is good and that extra safe hit is good, but landing lag is a bit more for nair (IMO).

Dtilt trip>usmash is *****, but nobody can perfectly space the trip so it's *** reliable...

Can't think of much else... Pkflash to nair is a safer way of what I suggested...

 

[CarVac]

You don't seem to mention stuff that's based more on aerial combat. I enjoy doing (fullhop, possibly offstage) bair or nair -> DJ dair when the opponent is at lower percentages. Fully aerial strings are much MUCH more fluid than ground-based ones, I find, and they make opponents angrier (and less able to think clearly) because they have fewer options.

I lure opponents into the air by shorthopping diagonally and falling diagonally back to the spot where I was standing, repeatedly, with nairs thrown in for good measure. If they respond, I DJ airdodge and do something (sometimes dair, sometimes nair, sometimes bair) afterwards.

I never seem to have trouble with "unsafe on shield" because I played computers in smash64 very often, which are prone to shieldgrabbing. So, all my strings seem to focus on hitting them once, and then getting behind them if they shield. Yes, this does nothing against, say, screw attack or spin attack OOS, but it's better than always getting shieldgrabbed, and also nullifies Dolphin slash OOS (maybe that's how I always end up getting marths to dolphin slash and miss me). Not even Olimar can grab behind himself while shielding (that's what I found).

Back to grounded strings, though:
PK Fire -> sh over them -> Dair -> Uair or nair depending on where they go (or if they shield). If they are shielding, I tend to DJ at the same time as the Dair so I'm safe.
PK FIre -> sh over them -> bair (behind them) with a simultaneous DJ so you don't get stuck landing next to them. in the case they shielded.
I tend to pivot PK fire at maximum range whenever possible. If I'm feeling particularly twitchy one day, I'll dash towards them, and dashdance-PKFire as an approach instead of just a defensive option.

FH Bair -> chase w/ djBair: ***** I do if they don't shield the first hit. (I fullhop and aerial at the same time, so I keep rising after connecting with the move)
FH Bair -> (maneuver behind them) -> FF Fair: **** I do this if they shield the first hit: I go behind them so they can't grab, and the fair can lead into a grab while they're shielding, or a jab combo if they drop the shield.

Speaking of dtilt, the last 3 times I've used the move (I don't use it often, other than refreshing stale moves on destructibles), I've tripped someone and 2 of the times connected with tipper fsmash. I don't know how, but I seem to just "know" when they'll land on the trip spot. ****** is my rating based on my luck.

Random fun fact: Tailwhipping freezes Kirby's stone attack. Playing in FFA's, I tailwhipped the stone, and by the time it fell through to me, I had just PKT2'd and he hit me during the sweetspot's invincibility frames. Muahahahhahahahh.

By the way: If any of these don't work, just say so. I'm writing this on memory (I haven't played for a week) and I'm not even perfectly sure what I do, just that it works often.

 

[xoxokev]

lol, i just realized that the ***** system is a bad idea, it just looks like something is being censored, let's just use numbers 1-5 from now on. thanks carvac and eagleeye for your input

 

[Earthbound360]

Dtilt trip to bat is not a true combo, but it does not mean that it is not reliable. While it is very possible to escape unfortunately, it sill has a good enough chance of landing from my experiences.

 

[Man of Popsicle]

Dtilt trip to bat is not a true combo, but it does not mean that it is not reliable. While it is very possible to escape unfortunately, it sill has a good enough chance of landing from my experiences.

Never leave again.

 

[Earthbound360]

^^^
I was afraid of a post like that lol.

Sorry, been out of Brawl lately, but I'm getting back into it. Trying to get my game back for a tourey I plan to attend in January.

 

[Xebenkeck]

OMG EB360 lives

 

[Earthbound360]

Ive been craving Brawl lately. Other wii games have made me almost forget how much I loved it.

 

[milesg2g]

Double SHUFFL
Nair+Uair
Works perfect on peaches if you use good spacing
and others for that matter

 

[FuPoo]

D tilt f smash can be escaped. D tilt yo yo can't.

Ah hah. I love this one!

 

[CarVac]

I always forget about the usmash in the heat of the moment, and go for the bat. It scares the opponent more. Now if the trip getup animation were long enough to prepare PK Flash.....that would be scary.