Ness Match Up Chart Ver 2.0

[Deleted member]

How is it? I'm open to any criticism no matter how I get lol. And feel free to ask questions about placement and such.

Credit to kraw23 for formatting the chart

 

[Specs64z]

Ness absolutely bodies Jiggs, imo. I personally think it's his second best matchup right after Ganondorf. Jiggs needs to fight in the air, and Ness's tools overpower her in every aspect. His aerials outrange, outspeed, and outkill Jiggs. Jiggs can't even play keep away because she has basically no counterplay against PKT.

Rosaluma might actually be even now, tbh. Luma is much easier to kill and yo-yo demolishes Rosa's recovery almost as bad as gravitational pull demolishes Ness's.

Inkling is also even, imo. Ness invalidates a lot of splat bomb ledge traps with PSI magnet, and yo-yo is pretty hard for Inkling to get around. Inkling has great offstage, but they go pretty even when they're on stage.

Ness is also really good against Snake. PSI magnet invalidates all of Snake's trapping tools and PKT eats Snake alive.

I think Yoshi is Ness's worst matchup. Yoshi's airspeed is faster than Ness's run speed, and eggs are really oppressive because of that. Add in Yoshi's great offstage potential and great juggling/antiair tools to keep Ness from landing and that matchup can be a headache.

Nothing else really stands out to me, otherwise. Ness doesn't have any matchups that feel impossible like he did in Smash 4 (at least so far).

 

[Mr Saturn Fanboy]

You could budge Snake, Jigglypuff, Megaman, and K. Rool to advantage.
Snake gets all his attacks eaten for breakfast
Jigglypuff gets out-ranged and is at the mercy of your aerials
K. Rool's projectiles are no match for your bat, and the yoyo adds amazing pressure on him as he's too slow to do a safe OoS
Megaman can't handle Ness' almighty projectile killers. He can't projectile spam fast enough to keep up.

Kinda on the fence with Samus (maybe its just because I suck idk)

I think you could probably switch Ike and Lucina

Maybe move Young Link to disadvantage, as he seems kind of unpunishable with Ness in my experiences

 

[Specs64z]

Megaman can't handle Ness' almighty projectile killers. He can't projectile spam fast enough to keep up.

Leaf shield alone keeps me from agreeing here, tbh.

I think you could probably switch Ike and Lucina

Maybe move Young Link to disadvantage, as he seems kind of unpunishable with Ness in my experiences

I disagree Lucina should switch with Ike. Lucina has the perfect tools to counter Ness. Fast speed and faster disjoints, with incredible edgeguarding and a recovery that beats yo-yo. Ike could be a disadvantageous matchup, though. What he lacks in speed and edgeguards he makes up for with great range and absurd kill power. Ness bullies Ike's recovery like no other character can, though.

In my experience, Ness bodies Y Link pretty handily if he gets in, but getting in on Y Link isn't an easy feat. Hard for me to call either way.

 

[Mr Saturn Fanboy]

Leaf shield alone keeps me from agreeing here, tbh.

Leaf shield needs to be deleted. nintendo pls

I disagree Lucina should switch with Ike. Lucina has the perfect tools to counter Ness. Fast speed and faster disjoints, with incredible edgeguarding and a recovery that beats yo-yo. Ike could be a disadvantageous matchup, though.

Never had trouble with Lucina. Guess I just got lucky matchups.

 

[MG_3989]

Ness bodies K Rool and bears Snake easy. He also beats Jiggs, Pikachu, Pichu, Bowser, Pokémon Trainer (he beats Ivy and Charizard), YL, TL, Link and probably Ken and Ryu

Ness is even with Inkling if not a small advantage

Ness definitely losses to Ike, probably Shulk, Yoshi, probably Cloud, and possibly Corrin

In my experience, Ness bodies Y Link pretty handily if he gets in, but getting in on Y Link isn't an easy feat. Hard for me to call either way.

YL can’t kill and has a really hard time with Ness. Definitely in our advantage

 

[kraw23]

Maybe its just my anecdotal experience but pokemon trainer destroys me most of the time. The dair spike on Ivysaur in particular. In fact I'll change that to Ivysaur destroys me, the other two aren't too bad. Razor leaf spam is difficult to deal with, the awkward angle of Ivy's grounded up-b hits the awkward angle of Ness' double jump (so it hits all the time) and Ness cannot recover low off stage with pk thunder because Ivy can spike you before you can hit yourself.

 

[Mr Saturn Fanboy]

Maybe its just my anecdotal experience but pokemon trainer destroys me most of the time. The dair spike on Ivysaur in particular. In fact I'll change that to Ivysaur destroys me, the other two aren't too bad. Razor leaf spam is difficult to deal with, the awkward angle of Ivy's grounded up-b hits the awkward angle of Ness' double jump (so it hits all the time) and Ness cannot recover low off stage with pk thunder because Ivy can spike you before you can hit yourself.

Ivysaur is a pain, especially considering all of their aerials are fast and powerful. (not to mention that voice actor, ugh! IVY IVY! SAUR? Makes my ears bleed) The thing I can't seem to get over is the "charizard zoom zoom flaming kaboom" thing. (that's just what I like to call it.) Could just be that i'm trash at video games, but that spam always gets me.

 

[Mr Saturn Fanboy]

YL can’t kill and has a really hard time with Ness. Definitely in our advantage

I literally hate playing YL. So hecking much.

 

[kraw23]

Charizard Zoom Zoom Flaming Kaboom - aka Flare Blitz - is super telegraphed (listen carefully for the high pitched noise right at the start of it, you have quite a while to air dodge/spot dodge/jump/shield when you hear it). Having said that it'll catch me off guard every now and then for sure.

I'm not sure that DDD is a winning matchup for Ness either - he has so much range I often have trouble getting in, and he can ledge trap with gordo + the huge hammer that Ness can't easily jump over / roll through (maybe I'm just bad at the match up?)

 

[Jasper the Tourist]

Ness absolutely bodies Jiggs, imo. I personally think it's his second best matchup right after Ganondorf. Jiggs needs to fight in the air, and Ness's tools overpower her in every aspect. His aerials outrange, outspeed, and outkill Jiggs. Jiggs can't even play keep away because she has basically no counterplay against PKT.

I agree with this. I play Jiggs and I always struggle when I face Ness.

 

[MG_3989]

Ivysaur is a pain, especially considering all of their aerials are fast and powerful. (not to mention that voice actor, ugh! IVY IVY! SAUR? Makes my ears bleed) The thing I can't seem to get over is the "charizard zoom zoom flaming kaboom" thing. (that's just what I like to call it.) Could just be that i'm trash at video games, but that spam always gets me.

See Ivysaur is the easiest of them all to me and is usually combo food. Squirtle definitely gives me the most trouble but I don’t think PT is hard in general

I literally hate playing YL. So hecking much.

So do I. It’s definitely not fun but I still think we win it. He has a lot of trouble killing us and fast fall fairs and aerial PK Fires really get to him. Plus once we’re in on him we have the advantage and we can kill him way quicker than he kills us. Yo-yo will hit him every time he recovers low and if he recovers high nail him with PK Thunder or uair or even a surprise PKT2

Charizard Zoom Zoom Flaming Kaboom - aka Flare Blitz - is super telegraphed (listen carefully for the high pitched noise right at the start of it, you have quite a while to air dodge/spot dodge/jump/shield when you hear it). Having said that it'll catch me off guard every now and then for sure.

I'm not sure that DDD is a winning matchup for Ness either - he has so much range I often have trouble getting in, and he can ledge trap with gordo + the huge hammer that Ness can't easily jump over / roll through (maybe I'm just bad at the match up?)

I think DDD is definitely a winning matchup. He’s straight combo food and we can hit gordos right back at him. Plus he gets juggled by PK Thunder basically forever. I never have trouble against him

 

[kraw23]

That's fair, I should look at the match-up in general not my own experience. A top tier player will body a lower tier player with any character!

 

[Deleted member]

I'm taking all of y'all's recommendations and creating a better one that can be used as a reference I will update the op and @ you all when finished

 

[MG_3989]

I'm taking all of y'all's recommendations and creating a better one that can be used as a reference I will update the op and @ you all when finished

Thanks!

That’s really awesome of you. This is great for picking a secondary and just glancing at real quick before a match

 

[Deleted member]

MG_3989 kraw23 Jasper the Tourist Mr Saturn Fanboy Specs64z Ver 2.0 is up!

 

[Mr Saturn Fanboy]

Nice.

 

[MG_3989]

MG_3989 kraw23 Jasper the Tourist Mr Saturn Fanboy Specs64z Ver 2.0 is up!

This is sick!

 

[Jasper the Tourist]

Looking good!

 

[MG_3989]

We’re really in quite a good position this game. So far we don’t have any real problem matchups and we beat and go even with a good amount of top/high tiers *knocks on wood*

 

[Specs64z]

I’m not 100% sure I agree with Ivysaur being a losing mu, but I also don’t have much experience with Ivysaur, so it’s hard to theory craft.

 

[kraw23]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdfKuDSomJc - bestness bodies a pokemon trainer
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TAXNswW5Kc - bestness bodies another pokemon trainer
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAtaDDLyJYg - MuFin gets bodied by a pokemon trainer

What is BestNess doing that MuFin isn't? I plan to find out

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMyrBlzdAmA - FOW beats pokemon trainer
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkUKpwbJELQ - FOW beats a different pokemon trainer

Looks like Ness is pretty good against pokemon trainer at top levels. Most of the above matches are grands / winners finals so the pokemon trainer players are good.

Also it's spelled "annihilate"

 

[Deleted member]

Wow

Also it's spelled "annihilate"

Man now my OCD is gonna get on my nerves

 

[MG_3989]

I’m not 100% sure I agree with Ivysaur being a losing mu, but I also don’t have much experience with Ivysaur, so it’s hard to theory craft.

I have some experience with Ivysaur and I don’t believe she’s a losing matchup. She’s combo food and very easy to string against. I’ve only played a couple decent Ivysaurs though so idk

 

[Deleted member]

I have some experience with Ivysaur and I don’t believe she’s a losing matchup. She’s combo food and very easy to string against. I’ve only played a couple decent Ivysaurs though so idk

I wanted to put a extra tier for between Even and losing but the tier list creator didn't let me i was at least gonna put Sonic and Ivysaur there so sorry.

 

[kraw23]

I made your tier list using a different website, and added an extra tier: https://i.imgur.com/LzukVqj.jpg

Edit it here:
https://www.smashtierlist.com/9d2a48bdd9e69791a85533a8a91f5433c3ec3b901729e4bc5dc779a18d2d3b13/

 

[Deleted member]

I made your tier list using a different website, and added an extra tier: https://i.imgur.com/LzukVqj.jpg

Edit it here:
https://www.smashtierlist.com/9d2a48bdd9e69791a85533a8a91f5433c3ec3b901729e4bc5dc779a18d2d3b13/

I will totally use that thanks!

 

[MG_3989]

I actually think we beat Pichu

 

[Specs64z]

I actually think we beat Pichu

That's a pretty hot take, imo, but I'm curious to hear why.

 

[Deleted member]

I actually think we beat Pichu

I do too but it won't let me edit it on mobile so i guess we are stuck with it unless i should go back to the old one.

 

[MG_3989]

That's a pretty hot take, imo, but I'm curious to hear why.

We can Magnet his lighting spam in neutral so he has to come to us. Then we can either nair his approach or shield him and get a grab on him and rack up damage fast. All we need is 60-70% for back throw or up air or back air to kill. If he gets us off stage and tries to edgeguard we can Magnet any attempts at thunder and air dodge through his other options. If he’s jumpy we can up air and yo-yo him and we’re floaty so we can DI out of his combos. I really don’t see a reason he beats us, I know he edge guards well but we can get around that

 

[Specs64z]

We can Magnet his lighting spam in neutral so he has to come to us. Then we can either nair his approach or shield him and get a grab on him and rack up damage fast. All we need is 60-70% for back throw or up air or back air to kill. If he gets us off stage and tries to edgeguard we can Magnet any attempts at thunder and air dodge through his other options. If he’s jumpy we can up air and yo-yo him and we’re floaty so we can DI out of his combos. I really don’t see a reason he beats us, I know he edge guards well but we can get around that

I have mixed feelings on the matchup mostly because of how hard Pichu can go off stage, and how easily he gets us off stage with his ridiculous combos. Normally, I agree that Ness has the tools to get around a lot of edgeguarding, but Pichu's aerials off stage are really difficult to work around because of how diverse they are and how early Pichu can kill. Once Pichu has the advantage, he can oppress us super hard... but if the Pichu player messes up a few times they'll get blown up at criminally low percent.

 

[MG_3989]

I have mixed feelings on the matchup mostly because of how hard Pichu can go off stage, and how easily he gets us off stage with his ridiculous combos. Normally, I agree that Ness has the tools to get around a lot of edgeguarding, but Pichu's aerials off stage are really difficult to work around because of how diverse they are and how early Pichu can kill. Once Pichu has the advantage, he can oppress us super hard... but if the Pichu player messes up a few times they'll get blown up at criminally low percent.

I get where you’re coming from but I think overall Ness wins this one especially because we can force approach. Pichu can combo us but we’re floaty enough and light enough to DI out of some of them. And Pichu has to convert on advantage every time with stock to win. Pichu is horrible in disadvantage and I believe we can put him there and keep him there and obviously we kill him stupid early. I think a good Pichu can body a Ness but I also think it can go the other way and I think Ness generally takes this one

 

[Mr Saturn Fanboy]

I feel like the Pichu v. Ness matchup is pretty even. Pichu combos like nobody's business. (Literally) lightning fast, the whole "self damage" aspect is a complete joke these days, and they've got a hurtbox the size of a bottlecap. Pichu also seems to have a case of "Melee Luigi" where your combos can be completely taken by Pichu with the mystical power of .

That being said, Ness has good kill power and because of this, can get kills from 60% no problem. The path to 60% is an annoying one, but manageable. If you stay away from PK Fire, use the yo-yo, and space yourself with neutral-air, you'll have a fighting chance against the yellow menace.

So, i'd say this matchup is probably 50/50, maybe 48 N/52 P. Not a losing one, not a winning one.

 

[Bcinq]

Psi magnet shuts down Neutral B-Grab and if pichu gets hit, and the ness does Uair-Grab-Throw offstage he gets put on a edgeguard situation, which is terrible for pichu due to yo-yo and PKT1, which can destroy his stocks. Disjoints are also hard to deal as Pichu like Pikachu, but pichu is smaller so it affects him less. Nair OOS is also hard to deal with as Pichu.
Pichu can combo ness hard by converting out of literally any aerial or tilt and edgeguard him easily, but Ness can do both too.
Also pichu sucks in disadvantage but is amazing in advantage.
I would say Pichu VS Ness Is a slight win/ Even.

 

[kraw23]

Pro tip in the pichu matchup: psimagnet knocks Pichu prone. If he isn't expecting it you can jab lock with dtilt and get a free fsmash.

 

[Mr Purple]

There is no way the gap between Pikachu and Pichu should be that large. They should both be in +1 or even at worst. I know Ness is considered one of the 2 worst matchups for Pika and Pichu (Olimar being the other). Yoshi and Palutena being -2 seems a bit extreme as well. Talking to other Ness players on discord, I got the impression Belmonts were one of the worst matchups for Ness, so it seems strange to have them at +2 alongside K. Rool and Jigglypuff. People also seemed to have a lot of trouble with Cloud, which makes sense given the theme of Ness being bad against long disjointed hitboxes like Shulk, Ike, Lucina, and Belmonts.

 

[kraw23]

They may not be -2, but they're not a bad matchup either. They're so easily gimped by PKT1 and yoyo it feels terrible for them sometimes. Cloud is definitely tough, but given his range nerfs and the yoyo buffs he's become much easier for Ness to deal with.

Also I agree that Palu and Yoshi are not -2.

 

[Specs64z]

There is no way there should be that large a gap between Pikachu and Pichu. They should both be in +1 or even. I know Ness is considered one of the 2 worst matchups for Pika and Pichu (Olimar being the other). Yoshi and Palutena being -2 seems a bit extreme as well. Talking to other Ness players on discord, I got the impression Belmonts were one of the worst matchups for Ness, so it seems strange to have them at +2 alongside K. Rool and Jigglypuff. People also seemed to have a lot of trouble with Cloud, which makes sense given the theme of Ness being bad against long disjointed hitboxes like Shulk, Ike, Lucina, and Belmonts.

I have a hard time agreeing Ness isn't at advantage versus the Belmonts. The Belmonts get absolutely devastated by Ness off stage, and utterly lack the ability to return the favor plus their potent ledge traps are often beaten out by PSI magnet. Then there's the fact that their projectiles are all reactable for reflect and they can't reliably cover aerial PK fire with their projectile arcs. Cloud is in a similar spot in the fact he gets blown up off stage, but he can actually edgeguard if he has limit and has his speed.

Pichu is definitely a worse matchup than Pikachu, but I agree they shouldn't be so far apart.

 

[MG_3989]

There is no way the gap between Pikachu and Pichu should be that large. They should both be in +1 or even at worst. I know Ness is considered one of the 2 worst matchups for Pika and Pichu (Olimar being the other). Yoshi and Palutena being -2 seems a bit extreme as well. Talking to other Ness players on discord, I got the impression Belmonts were one of the worst matchups for Ness, so it seems strange to have them at +2 alongside K. Rool and Jigglypuff. People also seemed to have a lot of trouble with Cloud, which makes sense given the theme of Ness being bad against long disjointed hitboxes like Shulk, Ike, Lucina, and Belmonts.

Wait who said K Rool was a bad matchup? He’s literally almost free. Jiggs is the same. I haven’t heard any Ness players say K Rool (this is making my sides split laughing) or Jiggs are a bad matchup. I think we have advantage over the Belmonts too. We get in on them and it’s gg. I think Shulk is Ness’s worst MU personally

I seriously cannot get over somebody calling K Rool a bad MU. He’s pretty much free