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Leaf shield alone keeps me from agreeing here, tbh.Megaman can't handle Ness' almighty projectile killers. He can't projectile spam fast enough to keep up.
I disagree Lucina should switch with Ike. Lucina has the perfect tools to counter Ness. Fast speed and faster disjoints, with incredible edgeguarding and a recovery that beats yo-yo. Ike could be a disadvantageous matchup, though. What he lacks in speed and edgeguards he makes up for with great range and absurd kill power. Ness bullies Ike's recovery like no other character can, though.I think you could probably switch Ike and Lucina
Maybe move Young Link to disadvantage, as he seems kind of unpunishable with Ness in my experiences
Leaf shield needs to be deleted. nintendo plsLeaf shield alone keeps me from agreeing here, tbh.
Never had trouble with Lucina. Guess I just got lucky matchups.I disagree Lucina should switch with Ike. Lucina has the perfect tools to counter Ness. Fast speed and faster disjoints, with incredible edgeguarding and a recovery that beats yo-yo. Ike could be a disadvantageous matchup, though.
YL can’t kill and has a really hard time with Ness. Definitely in our advantageIn my experience, Ness bodies Y Link pretty handily if he gets in, but getting in on Y Link isn't an easy feat. Hard for me to call either way.
Ivysaur is a pain, especially considering all of their aerials are fast and powerful. (not to mention that voice actor, ugh! IVY IVY! SAUR? Makes my ears bleed) The thing I can't seem to get over is the "charizard zoom zoom flaming kaboom" thing. (that's just what I like to call it.) Could just be that i'm trash at video games, but that spam always gets me.Maybe its just my anecdotal experience but pokemon trainer destroys me most of the time. The dair spike on Ivysaur in particular. In fact I'll change that to Ivysaur destroys me, the other two aren't too bad. Razor leaf spam is difficult to deal with, the awkward angle of Ivy's grounded up-b hits the awkward angle of Ness' double jump (so it hits all the time) and Ness cannot recover low off stage with pk thunder because Ivy can spike you before you can hit yourself.
I literally hate playing YL. So hecking much.YL can’t kill and has a really hard time with Ness. Definitely in our advantage
I agree with this. I play Jiggs and I always struggle when I face Ness.Ness absolutely bodies Jiggs, imo. I personally think it's his second best matchup right after Ganondorf. Jiggs needs to fight in the air, and Ness's tools overpower her in every aspect. His aerials outrange, outspeed, and outkill Jiggs. Jiggs can't even play keep away because she has basically no counterplay against PKT.
See Ivysaur is the easiest of them all to me and is usually combo food. Squirtle definitely gives me the most trouble but I don’t think PT is hard in generalIvysaur is a pain, especially considering all of their aerials are fast and powerful. (not to mention that voice actor, ugh! IVY IVY! SAUR? Makes my ears bleed) The thing I can't seem to get over is the "charizard zoom zoom flaming kaboom" thing. (that's just what I like to call it.) Could just be that i'm trash at video games, but that spam always gets me.
So do I. It’s definitely not fun but I still think we win it. He has a lot of trouble killing us and fast fall fairs and aerial PK Fires really get to him. Plus once we’re in on him we have the advantage and we can kill him way quicker than he kills us. Yo-yo will hit him every time he recovers low and if he recovers high nail him with PK Thunder or uair or even a surprise PKT2I literally hate playing YL. So hecking much.
I think DDD is definitely a winning matchup. He’s straight combo food and we can hit gordos right back at him. Plus he gets juggled by PK Thunder basically forever. I never have trouble against himCharizard Zoom Zoom Flaming Kaboom - aka Flare Blitz - is super telegraphed (listen carefully for the high pitched noise right at the start of it, you have quite a while to air dodge/spot dodge/jump/shield when you hear it). Having said that it'll catch me off guard every now and then for sure.
I'm not sure that DDD is a winning matchup for Ness either - he has so much range I often have trouble getting in, and he can ledge trap with gordo + the huge hammer that Ness can't easily jump over / roll through (maybe I'm just bad at the match up?)
Thanks!I'm taking all of y'all's recommendations and creating a better one that can be used as a reference I will update the op and @ you all when finished
This is sick!
Man now my OCD is gonna get on my nervesAlso it's spelled "annihilate"
I have some experience with Ivysaur and I don’t believe she’s a losing matchup. She’s combo food and very easy to string against. I’ve only played a couple decent Ivysaurs though so idkI’m not 100% sure I agree with Ivysaur being a losing mu, but I also don’t have much experience with Ivysaur, so it’s hard to theory craft.
I wanted to put a extra tier for between Even and losing but the tier list creator didn't let me i was at least gonna put Sonic and Ivysaur there so sorry.I have some experience with Ivysaur and I don’t believe she’s a losing matchup. She’s combo food and very easy to string against. I’ve only played a couple decent Ivysaurs though so idk
I will totally use that thanks!I made your tier list using a different website, and added an extra tier: https://i.imgur.com/LzukVqj.jpg
Edit it here:
https://www.smashtierlist.com/9d2a48bdd9e69791a85533a8a91f5433c3ec3b901729e4bc5dc779a18d2d3b13/
That's a pretty hot take, imo, but I'm curious to hear why.I actually think we beat Pichu
I do too but it won't let me edit it on mobile so i guess we are stuck with it unless i should go back to the old one.I actually think we beat Pichu
We can Magnet his lighting spam in neutral so he has to come to us. Then we can either nair his approach or shield him and get a grab on him and rack up damage fast. All we need is 60-70% for back throw or up air or back air to kill. If he gets us off stage and tries to edgeguard we can Magnet any attempts at thunder and air dodge through his other options. If he’s jumpy we can up air and yo-yo him and we’re floaty so we can DI out of his combos. I really don’t see a reason he beats us, I know he edge guards well but we can get around thatThat's a pretty hot take, imo, but I'm curious to hear why.
I have mixed feelings on the matchup mostly because of how hard Pichu can go off stage, and how easily he gets us off stage with his ridiculous combos. Normally, I agree that Ness has the tools to get around a lot of edgeguarding, but Pichu's aerials off stage are really difficult to work around because of how diverse they are and how early Pichu can kill. Once Pichu has the advantage, he can oppress us super hard... but if the Pichu player messes up a few times they'll get blown up at criminally low percent.We can Magnet his lighting spam in neutral so he has to come to us. Then we can either nair his approach or shield him and get a grab on him and rack up damage fast. All we need is 60-70% for back throw or up air or back air to kill. If he gets us off stage and tries to edgeguard we can Magnet any attempts at thunder and air dodge through his other options. If he’s jumpy we can up air and yo-yo him and we’re floaty so we can DI out of his combos. I really don’t see a reason he beats us, I know he edge guards well but we can get around that
I get where you’re coming from but I think overall Ness wins this one especially because we can force approach. Pichu can combo us but we’re floaty enough and light enough to DI out of some of them. And Pichu has to convert on advantage every time with stock to win. Pichu is horrible in disadvantage and I believe we can put him there and keep him there and obviously we kill him stupid early. I think a good Pichu can body a Ness but I also think it can go the other way and I think Ness generally takes this oneI have mixed feelings on the matchup mostly because of how hard Pichu can go off stage, and how easily he gets us off stage with his ridiculous combos. Normally, I agree that Ness has the tools to get around a lot of edgeguarding, but Pichu's aerials off stage are really difficult to work around because of how diverse they are and how early Pichu can kill. Once Pichu has the advantage, he can oppress us super hard... but if the Pichu player messes up a few times they'll get blown up at criminally low percent.
I have a hard time agreeing Ness isn't at advantage versus the Belmonts. The Belmonts get absolutely devastated by Ness off stage, and utterly lack the ability to return the favor plus their potent ledge traps are often beaten out by PSI magnet. Then there's the fact that their projectiles are all reactable for reflect and they can't reliably cover aerial PK fire with their projectile arcs. Cloud is in a similar spot in the fact he gets blown up off stage, but he can actually edgeguard if he has limit and has his speed.There is no way there should be that large a gap between Pikachu and Pichu. They should both be in +1 or even. I know Ness is considered one of the 2 worst matchups for Pika and Pichu (Olimar being the other). Yoshi and Palutena being -2 seems a bit extreme as well. Talking to other Ness players on discord, I got the impression Belmonts were one of the worst matchups for Ness, so it seems strange to have them at +2 alongside K. Rool and Jigglypuff. People also seemed to have a lot of trouble with Cloud, which makes sense given the theme of Ness being bad against long disjointed hitboxes like Shulk, Ike, Lucina, and Belmonts.
Wait who said K Rool was a bad matchup? He’s literally almost free. Jiggs is the same. I haven’t heard any Ness players say K Rool (this is making my sides split laughing) or Jiggs are a bad matchup. I think we have advantage over the Belmonts too. We get in on them and it’s gg. I think Shulk is Ness’s worst MU personallyThere is no way the gap between Pikachu and Pichu should be that large. They should both be in +1 or even at worst. I know Ness is considered one of the 2 worst matchups for Pika and Pichu (Olimar being the other). Yoshi and Palutena being -2 seems a bit extreme as well. Talking to other Ness players on discord, I got the impression Belmonts were one of the worst matchups for Ness, so it seems strange to have them at +2 alongside K. Rool and Jigglypuff. People also seemed to have a lot of trouble with Cloud, which makes sense given the theme of Ness being bad against long disjointed hitboxes like Shulk, Ike, Lucina, and Belmonts.