Ness Matchup Discussion (PRELIMINARY)

[Asa]

I recently played a very strong Megaman player (For Glory) for over 4 hours...
I won nearly every game, and only lost three due to a disconnect.

I have replays.

Down B +3 Ness

 

[Seleir]

I recently played a very strong Megaman player (For Glory) for over 4 hours...
I won nearly every game, and only lost three due to a disconnect.

I have replays.

Down B +3 Ness

can you send me the replay please, also off thread question. do you use gc pad? if yes you set up tilt or smash?

 

[Ranias]

I recently played a very strong Megaman player (For Glory) for over 4 hours...
I won nearly every game, and only lost three due to a disconnect.

I have replays.

Down B +3 Ness

Really? +3? I've had some trouble with skilled Mega Mans. Metal Blade mixups can prevent PSI Magnet abuse.

 

[Earthbound360]

There is no way Mega Man is +3. He has tons of ways to work around Magnet.

 

[Luco]

There is no way Mega Man is +3. He has tons of ways to work around Magnet.

This, this so much, and I know @ Yink would agree.

Bad Megaman players spam lemons and Fsmash and the MU becomes ez pez.

In reality it's harddddd :'(

But we win it

 

[Yink]

It's not +3, you are correct.

Since nobody really messaged me any PMs for the discussion (I got maybe 2), I'm just going to roll with the first one we got. Our discussion is now about Diddy Kong.

Let's go guys!

 

[Asa]

Hey guys. Kinda off topic, but I just played like 40 games against a great Pikachu on For Glory and I won all of them.

I think that one's a +3.

I can post replays too.

My comment on mega man mu was a joking post poking fun at ranias using this post as a template lol. MM matchup is even or slight advantage for us.

Regarding diddy kong.. Top priority is to not get grabbed as he gains too much momentum from it

 

[Earthbound360]

How to beat Diddy:

Don't use PKF
Fall back fair a lot
Don't get grabbed
Edgeguard the hell out of him (seriously, Ness is really quite good at this)

Fun fact: You can DJC banana throws

 

[Ranias]

My comment on mega man mu was a joking post poking fun at ranias using this post as a template lol. MM matchup is even or slight advantage for us.

Oh lol. I was serious though. >.<. Pikachu's Thunder Jolt approaches are null because of PSI Magnet cancel. We outrange all of his moves (except F-smash). The only way he might do well is if he perfectly edgeguards using Thunder Jolt to shorten our PKT2 or to clash with PKT.

Anyways, I think Diddy Kong might be our truly hardest matchup now that I've played against some really tough ones. I guess I can go about it like I did with the Rosalina post. I'll try to be more concise than before, since I haven't won against good Diddys with Ness much at all.

All Positions

• Don't use grounded PK Fire unless you hard-read a dash attack, grab, or similar.
• Use his bananas against him, but don't fall for picking it up if he is ready to grab you.
  
• Covering your approaches/retreats with Fairs is good, but I think he can hit through them Bair/Fair anyways .
• If Diddy attempts Down Throw into Up Air, try to DI out of Diddy's reach and just jump away if you can.

Long Range

• Long range is irrelevant since Diddy will probably close the gap fast. +0.

Mid Range

• This position is frustrating. -2.
• Diddy is in the perfect position to Monkey Flip mixup (grab or kick).
• He can also run up and grab us very fast if he reads a shield.
• PK Fire and Thunder are unsafe unless you hard-read his approach.

Close Range

• This is difficult too. -1.
• Diddy is able to easily punish in this position because of his speed.
• His tilts and smashes outclass ours for the most part.
• Our best bet is to try to get a grab on him, shield grab or otherwise.
• We can also punish with Nair out of shield.

Diddy above Ness

• This is a slightly advantageous position for us. +1.
• PK Thunder juggle is kind of unsafe because Diddy can fast fall and punish.
• Aerial juggling can work, but it is tough to catch him.

Ness above Diddy

• Make it stop. -3.
• Diddy is crazy good at juggling Ness because Ness is floaty, and Ness's Down Air is slow.
• Diddy's Up Air combos into itself and covers a wide range.
  
• Don't air dodge too much. A good Diddy will read it and punish.
• Try to jump out of Diddy's range, and fastfall ASAP when it is safe to do so.

Diddy off the edge

• You need to go in here. +2.
• Try using PK Thunder, Nair, or Bair to catch Diddy as he is recovering.
• If he is charging his barrels, HIT HIM.
• During the Monkey Flip, he is vulnerable. HIT HIM.
• You can hit him out of his Barrel Rocket recovery too, but be careful to not be hit yourself instead.
• Watch out for his barrels if you hit him out of his Barrel Rocket recovery. They explode and hurt.

Ness off the edge

• We are gimpable. -2.
• If Diddy runs off the edge after you, cover your approach with Fair or Nair.
• Diddy can hit us out of our PKT2 recovery. He can also throw a banana into or body-block the PKT2 to shorten it.
• Try to read what edgeguard Diddy is going for, and time your PKT2 accordingly (if you have to use it).

My overall verdict for this matchup is -2.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

I disagree with a couple things there. The mid-range close-range sections aren't really bad for us. Shield should only be used if Diddy is holding a banana or when shield grabbing an aerial and Monkey Flip mixups can be dodged and punished on reaction (dependant on spacing). Instead of going for PK Thunder if Diddy is above us, I think we should try and punish his landing with a grab or an aerial and get him off stage. I feel the entire matchup should be based on throwing/knocking Diddy off stage and gimping him just because of how vulnerable he is and how good at this Ness is.

Other things to note: We shouldn't challenge Diddy's aerials ever. Punish him if he over commits to something. If he has a banana in his hand you can run up to him and shield (be cautious though). Diddy can't grab you! Punish banana throws with a grab, if he spot dodged grab him, if he rolls away you get stage position, if he jumps he's either retreating or going for a Monkey Flip. Spot dodge is probably the best choice here, because I'm not sure if it can be reacted to that close.

I believe the matchup is even.

 

[Ranias]

Nice points Shado. I'm still learning the matchup (might learn a new character to fight Diddy honestly).

I might believe the matchup is less in Diddy's favor if I saw some tournament play of Ness beating Diddy.

 

[PKBeam]

Fun Fact, If you get tripped by a banana and you're close to a ledge or the end of a platform you'll just fall off and he can't combo you without a read. but it's not really that useful.

 

[PSIBoy]

Also, do what NAKAT advised and use Diddy's bananas against him. That would restrict some of his play. Oh yeah, and don't get grabbed.

 

[Asa]

just don't throw them back at him recklessly lol

 

[Luco]

Are you sure about not challenging Diddy in the air? From what i've seen our Fair outranges his.

Something else to consider is that Nair should trump Monkey Flip.

I'll likely make a more extensive post on my thoughts on the MU later. I think it's most likely even or maybe -1.

 

[Noa.]

I think it has more to do with the fact that Diddy's fair comes out before ours, so you have to use fair pre-emptively to beat his fair.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

Alright, so we can beat his fair with ours because of disjoint, but what I've found is he can punish our aerials with a dash grab, however we can punish his fair with a dash grab too. Although his window is notably larger than ours, and his SHFF aerials are faster than ours.

 

[Waael]

 

[L9999]

Is that you? Because if so very good play but it was a little reckless. Everybody sees PKT2 coming and shieldgrab, and getting grabbed by Diddy is never a good option becuase they do a juggle of pain. And with the shield break, wasn't tipper bat a better option? That would totally killed him.

 

[Waael]

Is that you? Because if so very good play but it was a little reckless. Everybody sees PKT2 coming and shieldgrab, and getting grabbed by Diddy is never a good option becuase they do a juggle of pain. And with the shield break, wasn't tipper bat a better option? That would totally killed him.

Yeah that's me, PKT2 is always reckless whenever you use it, but I love playing a little reckless. I barely play safe, that may be a good or a bad thing at times. OH and on the Shield Break I wasn't sure if I should have F-Smashed or PKT2'd again, so I did PKT2 just for the hell of it, I'll make sure to F-Smash when I break a Diddy's shield next time. XD (This Diddy Kong is known as one of the best Diddy Kong's in Norcal)

With my advice in mind. When you play against Diddy you want to play near the ends of the stage and bait his banana. By him either missing you or hitting you, you'll either get hit and pushed off the stage which means he won't be able to grab you and you are able to do anything else to approach him.

 

[L9999]

Yeah that's me, PKT2 is always reckless whenever you use it, but I love playing a little reckless. I barely play safe, that may be a good or a bad thing at times. OH and on the Shield Break I wasn't sure if I should have F-Smashed or PKT2'd again, so I did PKT2 just for the hell of it, I'll make sure to F-Smash when I break a Diddy's shield next time. XD (This Diddy Kong is known as one of the best Diddy Kong's in Norcal)

With my advice in mind. When you play against Diddy you want to play near the ends of the stage and bait his banana. By him either missing you or hitting you, you'll either get hit and pushed off the stage which means he won't be able to grab you and you are able to do anything else to approach him.

Yeah, was going to say the same, also hitting his Up B with PKT and stage spiking him is always good idea because his recovery sucks. Monkey Flip at the end can be punished with PKT, Fair or Bair. One time I punished a monkey flip with PK Flash, and using this move is even more reckless than using PKT2.

 

[Earthbound360]

Just a little FYI:

PKT2 does more knockback than any of Ness' attacks
PK Flash does more damage

So if you break a shield, first go for PKT2 if you think you can KO. PK Flash if you can't.

 

[L9999]

Tested it. Diddy didn't die with PKT2, tipper bat or fully charged PK Flash at 38%. At 44% PKT2 can kill, at 56% with tipper bat and at 66% PK Flash. But that's not the issue here.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

Just a little FYI:

PKT2 does more knockback than any of Ness' attacks
PK Flash does more damage

So if you break a shield, first go for PKT2 if you think you can KO. PK Flash if you can't.

On that note, you can combo PK Flash into PK Thunder (and other things). Be sure to face away from your opponent when using it

 

[HFlash]

Hey guys! I know you aren't talking about Falcon, but was hoping for some input. Recently placed top 12 out of a 52 man tournament in my first outing with some of the best FL has to offer. I was able to rek some people, had 2 close matches, but what really bothered me was that i got demolished and kicked out of winner's by a great Ness. He would stump all of my aerial approaches with fair, and could set up a wall with PKF and PKT. People were telling me that I had to just wait for openings, block the projectiles, and wait it out. Is this really all Falcon can do in this MU?

 

[PKBeam]

just wait for openings, block the projectiles, and wait it out. Is this really all Falcon can do in this MU?

pretty much, i think. use your speed to get in but don't try to punish anything you can't make.
don't get grabbed at low %.
don't get grabbed at high %.

 

[PSIBoy]

pretty much, i think. use your speed to get in but don't try to punish anything you can't make.
don't get grabbed at low %.
don't get grabbed at high %.

Don't get Raptor Boosted around 100% and above either. You'll almost certainly die.

 

[PKBeam]

Don't get Raptor Boosted around 100% and above either. You'll almost certainly die.

yeah, this too.

 

[HFlash]

Don't get Raptor Boosted around 100% and above either. You'll almost certainly die.

Yes, but the start up time, and ending lag on raptor boost is really high. It isn't really safe to use when your bthrow kills at kinda low percentages

 

[Ranias]

Hey guys! I know you aren't talking about Falcon, but was hoping for some input. Recently placed top 12 out of a 52 man tournament in my first outing with some of the best FL has to offer. I was able to rek some people, had 2 close matches, but what really bothered me was that i got demolished and kicked out of winner's by a great Ness. He would stump all of my aerial approaches with fair, and could set up a wall with PKF and PKT. People were telling me that I had to just wait for openings, block the projectiles, and wait it out. Is this really all Falcon can do in this MU?

I got completely shut down by a Falcon player in a local tournament before WiiU version was released (my first time playing against a good Falcon). He was relentlessly aggressive almost the whole time. If you ever find that opening, try to get the most out of it before the Ness can react.

 

[HFlash]

I got completely shut down by a Falcon player in a local tournament before WiiU version was released (my first time playing against a good Falcon). He was relentlessly aggressive almost the whole time. If you ever find that opening, try to get the most out of it before the Ness can react.

Was there anything he was doing in his approach? Because if he isn't careful, he should get rekt by a decent ness. Most of your moves out prioritize and out range the captain. So if your not careful as C.F, you'll get punished again, and again.

 

[Ranias]

Was there anything he was doing in his approach? Because if he isn't careful, he should get rekt by a decent ness. Most of your moves out prioritize and out range the captain. So if your not careful as C.F, you'll get punished again, and again.

He was really fast to react for a punish when I used any unsafe move. He also followed up on that punish very well (often the stock). I honestly can't tell you that much because he ended the fight very fast... lol. I shouldn't have started the set as Bowser...

I have played people that were able to get in on PK Fire with powershielding and running approaches.

 

[HFlash]

He was really fast to react for a punish when I used any unsafe move. He also followed up on that punish very well (often the stock). I honestly can't tell you that much because he ended the fight very fast... lol. I shouldn't have started the set as Bowser...

I have played people that were able to get in on PK Fire with powershielding and running approaches.

Nononnonno DO NOT USE BOWSER vs C.F. Ness is probably one of C.F's toughest match ups because you have the whole combo to make my life a living hell: your small and floaty is it's harder to string combos into knee on, you have big disjointed hit boxes so I can't just throw aerials at you head on and win, AND you have projectiles. Force him to come to you, and only use your safe options (like fair) until you rack enough % to bthrow him. All bowser has is B but unless he gets hard reads on falcon, it's really easy to combo him, utilt spike him, knee him, etc. etc. He is one of C.F's easier MU imo (bowser meaning)

 

[Ranias]

Nononnonno DO NOT USE BOWSER vs C.F. Ness is probably one of C.F's toughest match ups because you have the whole combo to make my life a living hell: your small and floaty is it's harder to string combos into knee on, you have big disjointed hit boxes so I can't just throw aerials at you head on and win, AND you have projectiles. Force him to come to you, and only use your safe options (like fair) until you rack enough % to bthrow him. All bowser has is B but unless he gets hard reads on falcon, it's really easy to combo him, utilt spike him, knee him, etc. etc. He is one of C.F's easier MU imo (bowser meaning)

Thing is, I didn't know he played Falcon and also didn't know he was the best Falcon in my state, lol. Never doing Bowser vs. Falcon again. I default start as Ness unless I know my opponent's choice now.

I agree that Fairs and projectiles give Ness an advantage against Falcon. Just be aware that it's not an impossible matchup.

So is PKT2 actually kinda viable to use often against Diddy? I suppose it could end very badly because of thrown punishes as L9999 pointed out, but maybe if we are at higher percents or something, we could be knocked back far enough to evade Down Throw to Up Air combos.

 

[PKBeam]

So is PKT2 actually kinda viable to use often against Diddy? I suppose it could end very badly because of thrown punishes

PKT2 is hard to land. and only the first hitbox is actually good. the lasting hitbox is shieldable on reaction and relatively weak.
now PKT2 in close quarters, that's different. it's still dangerous, but the risk - reward is a lot less worse.

maybe if we are at higher percents or something, we could be knocked back far enough to evade Down Throw to Up Air combos.

You're still getting punished tho. It's easy for Diddy to toss a nana at you or grab you and each fraction of a percent brings you closer to a kill.

snip

nice ness play! but i don't think it was wise to try and use Flash when Diddy was already at 140+. I think all of Ness' aerials would've killed at that point.

 

[Waael]

So is PKT2 actually kinda viable to use often against Diddy? I suppose it could end very badly because of thrown punishes as L9999 pointed out, but maybe if we are at higher percents or something, we could be knocked back far enough to evade Down Throw to Up Air combos.

It's a risky move, use it if you're confident with your mind games and if the Diddy is defensive instead of aggressive which then gives you time to set up a mind game to bait them in it.

nice ness play! but i don't think it was wise to try and use Flash when Diddy was already at 140+. I think all of Ness' aerials would've killed at that point.

PKT 1 would have been better but I was on a live stream and didn't want to spam it haha, (Offline in tournaments I sometimes PK Flash but I always PKT 1 when people are off stage, I actually got a PK Flash kill at a tournament against a Shulk yesterday but it wasn't on my wii.)

I have another replay I wanted to share with you guys

 

[PKBeam]

great stuff, nice Dair @ 1:00!
PK Flash is a high risk high reward option that works best imo on people who don't take the move seriously. It's almost as potent at PKT2 and even a bit more than halfway through the move can kill at 80 or 90 iirc. also it's great to troll Villagers with. I'm going to try it out a lot more.

 

[Locuan]

Hi everyone, we just started discussion on the Ness Match-up on the Lucina character board. It would be great if you guys could help us out!

 

[Noa.]

So I haven't been able to contribute much to this conversation because I don't have a lot of experience playing against Diddy. But I will soon. Hopefully anyways

 

[PiBs]

Diddy vs. Ness is really hard. I would rate this matchup -2. I see Ness as defensive character in this game and diddy has a lot of great tools to get around your pk fire, shield, and runaway game.