Ness' Matchups

[TridenT]

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess that Gimpy plays Bowser just a smidgen.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess that Gimpy plays Bowser just a smidgen.

you, sir, are far to intelligent to be stuck playing ness.

i dont get you ness guys, not only is ness not good, but he is also not cute.

why would you play a bad character if they weren't cute?

 

[Earthbound360]

WTF r u talkin bout Gimpy!? Ness is a s3xy beast.

Also, another thing about Ness-Fox: Ness slides very far away from the shine which limits some of the combos he cando, but it's still not as bad as if Luigi was to get shined.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

ness is an ugly little boy you child molesters

ewwwwww

yeah i've basically been spammin in this topic for no reason, unless i'm addressed again i'm done haha

 

[TridenT]

But Gimpy, don't leave! I wanted to say hi to your Bowser!


...with my Bat!

I keed, I keed, but seriously, Ness > Bowser.

And punch me if I'm wrong, but I'm betting most Ness players were also purveyors of the fantastical game from which he came, am I right fellas?

 

[Gimpyfish62]

ness is a better charcter than bowser, but you all have him as like his easiest match, bowser isn't ACTUALLY a joke character you know...

bowser can edgeguard ness way to easily, firebreath > ness recovery for realz.

 

[TridenT]

Well, I'm wise enough at my age to realize that the right person can annihilate my Ness with just about anything. But just because my own personal list would place most characters in the "Disadvantage" column doesn't mean anything just like Simna putting everyone in his "Advantage" column.

I've not seen a ruthless-enough Bowser player to really gauge his true prowess at manhandling Ness.

 

[Reik]

@Bowser-haters: Play a good Bowser, please. Yeah, Ness has an advantage in the matchup but it's not his easiest match. IMO that honor (dishonor?) goes to Roy.

@EB360: I don't want to offend you, but based on those videos you posted a while back I think you should stop posting about the Ness vs Fox matchup. Play a well-known Fox player in your region and then get back to us.

I'm just surprised about Link and Y. Link. Link can outspace Ness's moves using his sword's range and priority and has a pretty solid combo game against Ness. He can also use his projectiles to control the spacing between him and Ness (Ness isn't exactly a great character to deal with spam). Speaking of spam, Y. Link has better projectiles than Link and can combo through spamming (bomb stun ftw). Eventhough his sword is shorter, it still outranges Ness. Both of the Links also have solid edgeguarding games against Ness too (Nair ftw).

I think both of those matchups are about even.

Link - It's true that Link has the range and the projectiles in this match, but I think Ness actually deals with spam pretty well. He's fast on the ground, has a good shield-game, and DJCs allow you to manuever around projectiles better than most characters can.

Ness combos the f*ck out of Link, btw. DJC F-air to immediate SH F-air works very well. If you can hit with a DJC U-air at low%s Link will take a LOT of damage. He also might be the easiest character to KO with a DJC F-air -> Bat.

Link can combo Ness decently and absolutely ***** his recovery though, gotta give him that. At least Ness's bat outranges Link's Up + B recovery. You can also use D-tilts to screw up a non-sweetspot hookshot recovery. I'm not sure if a properly timed D-tilt will stop even a sweetspot hookshot.

Y. Link - I've only ever played one good Y. Link, and that was just one match vs DireVulcan at Smashtality 2. I won but it was down to last stock, last hit.

Y. Link is faster than Link so it's a little harder to get through the run-away-and-throw-sh*t tactic. If you play a defensive fulljump-aerial-spammy Ness then you're going to get destroyed. Edgeguarding is almost the same as the Link matchup.

...

*waits for random Ness-player to point out that Ness can YYG Link and Y. Link after a missed grab* -_-'

 

[thesage]

Reik does that mean you want me to give fox back his place, which in my opinion is his rightful place, as having a strong advanage over Ness? I'll also add what you said about Link and Y. Link to the character strats.

Reik so far has posted the most amount of stategies. It would really help if someone else really good at Ness *cough*simna*cough* posted some serious strats as well. Even if your not a pro you can contribute to this guide/faq thingy. If you noticed I put up some of the stuff indie dave posted as well, even though he is relatively new to this game (no offence was intended from this). Any tidbit of useful information is helpful!

I'll also put roy at the bottom instead of bowser. I never intended any insult to bowser players, I just heard that from people posting on this board.

BTW: In case none of you have noticed, I tried earlier to put some order within the tiers, so feel free to comment on them. I'm also trying to make the list so that it agrees with a theoretical matchup of players with equal skill. Please don't say: "you won't agree with that if you face a pro", because if you are a pro then it should still be the same difficulty. I know I'm not making much sense, if someone could clear this up for me.

 

[Reik]

Reik does that mean you want me to give fox back his place, which in my opinion is his rightful place, as having a strong advanage over Ness?

Yeah.

I'll also post my method for chaingrabbing Fox/Falco on FD:

Ok, here's the hardest part: Get a grab. After that, U-throw.

Low %s - If they DI to either side, you can always catch them with a JC grab. No need to DJC U-air or DJC F-air and give them the opportunity to DI out. Just regrab them.
If they don't DI, be careful. Even at 0% they can jump or shine out with good timing. To be safe you can do a perfect DJC U-air*, then react to DI and dash JC grab.

Mid %s - If they DI to either side you have to dash and do a perfect DJC U-air while moving forward. Meaning you have to be holding forward while you double jump, then move to Up for the U-air. It's like a quarter-circle motion. Don't try to C-stick because that's too slow. After the U-air regrab if you think you can or do more U-airs into a B-air. This ends the combo around 85-95% and sets up for edgeguarding. Keep in mind that it doesn't KO.

Note: If they're near an edge after a DJC U-air and within F-smash range... then by all means... bat 'em.

High %s - You shouldn't be able to regrab them to high percents. However, if you get another grab, just U-throw B-air.

*What I call a perfect DJC U-air is when you start the U-air on one of the first few frames after double jumping, and time it so that you hit the ground immediately after the U-air hits the opponent, WITHOUT fastfalling. In this case at lower %s it helps if you hit the Fox as soon/high as possible, so you have more time to react to the DI.

 

[thesage]

Thanks again Reik. Should Falco also be in the strong disadvantage category. So far no one has given me any good reason why falco is easier than fox. The only thing I can think of is that it's hard for falco to combo ness with his shine, but I have no idea about this and that is the only big difference I see between fox and falco, besides the fact that falco falls faster and his recovery doesn't go as far.

 

[Earthbound360]

Well alright, if everyone votes against me, put Fox where he belongs. But it's not like that was the only Fox I've ever played. But w/e then.

But thesage, you told me you weren't considering Simna's list because it goes against what a vast majority of Ness players think.

 

[Reik]

Should Falco also be in the strong disadvantage category.

I have only played Ness for a few matches against Falcos at/above my level, so I can't decide yet. Whenever I find one I usually just Falco ditto them, lol. If Triad Prodigy is at TGP this weekend then I'll get back to you on that.

 

[thesage]

But thesage, you told me you weren't considering Simna's list because it goes against what a vast majority of Ness players think.

Was there a vast majority of Ness players agreeing with you? I'm not judging you off of that one video you posted. The main reason I'm not considering Simna's list is because I don't think he was serious about what he was saying. It's also not only the vast majority of Ness players, mostly everyone in the community agrees that Fox has an advantage over Ness. I don't mean to offend you, or anyone else making this faq. Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I'm trying to lower your reputation/ insult you. Sorry if you were offended.

The list I'm making is to help players judge whether the should Ness in a match. Before comeing onto these boards I had no idea Jigglypuff was such a strong counter for Ness. Had I gone to a tournament and fought one, I probably would've gotten ***** and be kicked out in the first round. This list is for people to learn. Not to debate Ness tier position. Ness still has much undiscovered potential, possibly one day making him plausible to be high teir easily. Unfortunately, this time round, very few people took serious interest in Ness, and he suffered greatly for this.

 

[thesage]

Wow after my wall of text nobody bothered to post....

Well I updated the guide a lot since it's creation and I just want to thank everyone that helped me. After my match with bizybozo tommorow I'll hopefully have something to add about Mario, Fox, and Falco.

 

[OnYourMark]

So.. anything on Ness mirror matchups? I've never played another worthy Ness.

 

[noe3]

No Shiek hints? = (

I find the best way to beat one is to not let them transform in the first place... Too bad that's not possible.

I play against my friend who mains Shiek a lot, and I find surprizingly that I can DJC air dodge to get out of the chainthrow after DI'ing all the way one way or the other, the lag on the air dodge does let him grab me again most of the time, but depending on the direction I air dodge, I can fake him out.

I used to get chain grabbed to about 60-80% then he would start juggling me, I find that if this happens you should DJC Down A, it almost always throws the Shieks timing off, and you end up hitting her perfectly with your Step Kick (eh, that's what I call it)

 

[thesage]

Putting those up. Why do I get the feeling that people only look at the top 5 posts in a forum?

 

[OnYourMark]

Putting those up. Why do I get the feeling that people only look at the top 5 posts in a forum?

Because it's usually true, especially when people make it sound like all of the important stuff is in the first post.

EDIT: I'm bored . . .

 

[Earthbound360]

Shiek can only chainthrow Ness up to 40 with perfect timing (I mean Ness). If you dont DI at 40+, you can time an nair perfectly to escape. Until then, just mash away and pray you can escape.

Then again, I always play Icys against Shiek. So I know not much more than that.

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

So.. anything on Ness mirror matchups? I've never played another worthy Ness.

I'm pretty sure that matchup is even.. I like it though. One of the few ditto matches that i'm actually decent at.

 

[Reik]

Ness dittos are the best. Right up there with Fox dittos and Falco dittos. =)

I don't feel like posting tips for them, but I will give you all these:

CJ vs Brown Mario 1
CJ vs Brown Mario 2
CJ vs Brown Mario 3
CJ vs Brown Mario 4

 

[noe3]

Putting those up. Why do I get the feeling that people only look at the top 5 posts in a forum?

Because I'm a Smash Noob, don't you read?

 

[thesage]

I'll analyze the Ness ditto movies this weekend and extract all the information that I can from it.

Edit: Next Weekend

 

[The_NZA]

samus is much harder for Ness then you give credit for.

 

[The_NZA]

Oh and reading up on this thread...falco has a huge advantage on ness. Ness eats shl just like every other character and the SHL kills his ability to DJC cause of the stun that repeatedly plagues him. Ness ends up having to play defensively cause he can never make the first move. Ness is pretty screwed against good falcos...sure you have combo ability but you have to actually land a combo to have that, and good falcos wont get grabbed among other things.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

how hard do u think samus is? like in relation to how hard othr characters are

 

[thesage]

Samus is a slight disadvantage. Up-smash missles, jump over beam shot thingy. The only problem here is d-smash. Compared to other characters, Ness has a better chance of edgegaurding her with reverse pk thunder. This prevents her from using her hookshot and turns her around.

This list here is extremelye inaccurate. The one I have in the Super guide is inaccurate as well but I'm too lazy to change it. If you want to bring matchup discussion here that's fine with me. Remember to read all the stuff I found out with the search function!

 

[toasty]

This list here is extremelye inaccurate. The one I have in the Super guide is inaccurate as well but I'm too lazy to change it. If you want to bring matchup discussion here that's fine with me. Remember to read all the stuff I found out with the search function!

I PMed Simna my extremely long [though strangely incomplete...like I didn't include edgeguarding or bair combos] and probably ridiculous anti-Samus guide...I'll PM it to you too, so check that

 

[KevinM]

I'm sorry if this is unrelated but thesage do you have any vids of you that i'm completely blanking on, i've never seen your ness..

 

[toasty]

So this is the ridiculously long list of Samus tips I have and I'm also including Simna's thoughts [which seem a lot more concise and applicable than my craziness....sorry in advance]...and yeah it's a lot easier for me to paste what Simna told me than to work it into what I've already written. If it weren't for finals week though, it'd be a different story XD

My Thoughts:
I don't think Samus is terribly difficult. She's such an odd character that making a valid comparison to other characters isn't subjective enough. You just have to be on your toes [like when going against a Jigglypuff, though I'll admit Jiggs makes you pay a lot more attention, like "sit on the edge of your seat and don't blink" kind of attention]...if they're good at missile spamming, either full jump backward or duck the high ones/mid ones, if they ground-cancel you can forward tilt them I believe [don't use the Bat to reflect because if they're missile spamming, that ground missile will definitely have a higher missile coming right behind it, and the lag from the bat will definitely make you eat one in the face, which can KO at high % =/...same goes for rolling. don't.] if you think there's enough space between the two oncoming missiles you can sidestep both of them, but be careful, missile spamming is usually a diversion while Samus slowly creeps closer, or throws in a Super-WD-->F/Dsmash/Charge-shot and sidestep/sidedodge [w/e you wanna call it] makes you pretty vulnerable to these after the dodge.

...if you can maneuver around those missile [or just up-forward and forward tilt them as you approach her] and get close...start dash dancing or do something on the ground, whatever mindgame you like, to make her defend against a ground attack with a bomb jump. If you DON'T see her DI after the first bomb and she seems to be descending for a second [unfortunately not many great Samuses...Sami? anyway, not many of them will bomb jump without their own DI mindgame], punish her with a PK fire to her bombs [as Simna has said before and Sage included...I know, but more specifcs on this since it can lead to great things] If you DO see her start to DI, and you're pretty much right in front of her, expect a Dair from Samus...but what I've learned is that Ness's utilt can beat Samus's dair! especially because a bomb jump doesn't typically give her enough height to hit you with the sweet spot of the dair [which can either outprioritize your tilt or trade blows with it...in which case you're screwed unless you crouch-tech because Samus is so quick with recovering from stun you'll be popped up right into a nair/bair...which are both bad news for Ness]

sound a bit risky? well depending on the Samus you go against [I say this because I haven't played recently enough against extremely skilled Samus players to try this enough times to see if it's dependable] you could try keeping a little more space between the two of you as you approach and begin your mindgames, then you jump to do a PKfire, as Samus burns [btw, jumping for the PKF increases your chances of Samus getting caught in the flaming pillar] , she'll typically DI away and down, which is perfect for what you want to follow up with: full-WD-->Bat. if she's a lil far away, start to dash and immediately do a full-WD->Bat. If she DI'ed away but not down, do the same moves to get you there but follow with a SH/DJC bair [might send her into the pillar of flames again for another hit if you're fast enough...don't bank on that though]



haha if you want to be flashy, DJC-uair the higher missiles =D
Don't try to PK Fire Charge Shots unless you're in the air jumping missles, putting you in a position, as far as Samus is concerned, vulnerable to the charge shot...the key here is prediction [and also make sure that if you fail, don't try this more than a couple times, otherwise she'll predict you instead and wait for the PK fire and then punish your lag with a shot] so don't wait to see the charge shot before you PK Fire because the move is too slow to react to a charge shot in time.

Don't try TOO many PKT juggles...once she's come down to the point where a PKT hit doesn't send her off the top of the screen [not to her death, just out of visible range], try doing a full-jump, DJ if you're feelin saucy, and then fake em out with a "insert name from the super guide of guiding PKT toward them and then away(but toward you) so that they'll instinctively want to punish your floating body...that will then soon be struck by your redirected PKT"-->death to Samus. =D or aim it at them if it doesn't look like you can strike yourself in time or at the right angle

I've played a ton against medium to pretty-good Samus players [but as I said, a long time has passed since I played a sick one] and these kinds of things tend to work against them.
also, perfect block/tilt a missile as early in the game as possible, it may keep them from spamming it as much.

If she's shielding, don't get too close or she'll upB out of shield which = bad times for Ness.
only try side-dodging grabs if you're really close to her. If not, the end of the grapple can still latch on to you once you're done dodging. And as with Link and Y.Link, a missed grab can = YYG!! or a bat if she's KOable or if you don't have the proper spacing


Simna's Thoughts:

1)Because of how this fight plays out its more a battle vs. the clock than vs. the other player.

2) Know how samus' tilts and smashes work. Use proper spacing and make good use of your shield. Samus can hugely punish you for random aggression. [but that's not to say you should never be agressive. Play smart and be careful]

3) Missiles aren't a hard problem to deal with. When in close quarters with Samus don't be afraid to wavedash backwards to get out of her tilt/smash range.

4) Attack Samus in the air and with aerials out of shield after guarding slower moves of hers. If you arent finding an openning and your shiled is suffering, see part 3.

5) This match will come VERY close to if not reaching a Time Up, so at every chance when you get samus up into the air a decent distance juggle her as many times as you can with PK Thunder to build up damage and stall for time. Stages with triple platform layouts(BF, FoD, YS, and DL64) altho they are common stages that Samus will like to counterpick against you, a Ness can hurt Samus bdl with pk thunder juggles once she is knocked into the air above the top platform. This is done by staying on the main part of the stage(bottom platform) and using the three platforms above as a shield that will hinder samus' ability to get down to where you are...meanwhile, if she lands on a platform on the way down the PK Thunder will be right there to hit as she is getting up thus allowing you to continue hitting her.

6) Stage selection between Ness and Samus is difficult for both of them because in the matchup there are glaring downsides on almost every stage for both characters in this matchup. I say, know the nature of Samus and play where you feel most comfortable.

 

[thesage]

I'm sorry if this is unrelated but thesage do you have any vids of you that i'm completely blanking on, i've never seen your ness..

Search Youtube for "thesage Ness". I'm not that good. I know a lot, but I'm having trouble applying it to actual combat. All those vids are outdated since I've improved a lot over the last two weeks and I will improve today after practicing DjC for three hours. **** it's so hard.... My fingers hurt. I mean like Greata the Great DjC too... I think I've nearly got it down though.

 

[Ademisk]

I never have a problem with Jigglypuffs personally. Even ones that are a lot better than me. Then again, maybe it's just the style of jigglypuff's that I've played. Who knows.

 

[toasty]

I never have a problem with Jigglypuffs personally. Even ones that are a lot better than me. Then again, maybe it's just the style of jigglypuff's that I've played. Who knows.

tips, man, TIPS!!!! I hate fighting Jigglypuffs....they definitely don't make it easy on me [then again, I use Pikachu on them and maaaan is it easy compared to using anyone else, maybe that's why I feel that the Ness matchup is so difficult]...what do you usually do?

 

[Ademisk]

Oh, uhm...**** I'm not too great of a Ness but...

Generally I fight Jigglypuff's that like to roll around and dodge all over the place, the dash attack always gets them. And as long as I don't use my bat or PK fire or anything, they can't find the time to Sleep me. The biggest problem is their bash move because of its big hitbox, I have a bad habit of rolling when I really should wavedash, but it seems to work against Jigglypuffs(just not on small surfaces). I generally just float around, and spend a lot of time in the air, I try not to touch the ground for very long. Jigglypuff is good in the air, but if you can use some small mindgames on them with Ness's second jump and DI, Ness has the superior power with his bair and fair. I just recently started using nair so I don't know how well it works against them...>_>. I'd say at best Jigglypuf is even, I've never played a jigglypuff where I felt I was at any type of disadvantage.