Ness vs. Ganon

[Delta-cod]

Ganon MU discussion.

THIS ONE BETTER BE FINISHED GUYS. TIRED OF THESE EMPTY THREADS YO.

 

[Chuee]

Ness wins.

 

[Delta-cod]

Ness wins.

Ganon does. Prove me wrong.

 

[Yink]

Ness wins.

What a waste of a post. Please include more than that next time.

 

[Eagleye893]

ok, ness has quite a bit of an advantage..... although a couple of things can get in his way....

PKFire, when it hits, basically destroys any heavy character, including ganon. Getting ganon in the air is a good idea, although his nair, bair and uair are quick(er) to release... most of his ground moves are predictable.... his sideB is a move that would be frequently used, so keep that in mind and don't put yourself too close to ganon.... his downB on the ground can go over a PKFire of ours, so don't spam it thinking it will destroy any ganon... the backswing of his uair hits you at a terrible angle offstage and will be used a ton in order to try and gimp you. His sh dair spamming will annoy you a lot, so make sure not to rush in and play a bit defensively. I'd say to not attempt spiking him unless you know for sure that you will hit, because his upb grabs you and the ending animation has the uppercut hit... also, his sideb would possibly drag you down with him if you aren't carefull.. don't rush up to a ganon when he is messing around on the ledge.

ganon is slow and powerful. remember he's slow and you can get in many attacks before he has a chance to retaliate if you get to the right spot.... many of his moves have lots of lag, so be sure to react as quickly as possible to punish. the ganon matchup is all about being careful, because if you aren't then you will just be putting yourself in to a terrible position...

 

[Chuee]

Spam PKF. His OoS options suck.

 

[Delta-cod]

Spam PKF. His OoS options suck.

Shield Drop > Wizkick. You just got punished for PKF.

Thank you for your input.

EagleEye is correct. If you're not careful, Ganon will kill you before you can say "lol Ganon's the worst in the game." He's got a very, very powerful punishing game.

 

[Uffe]

I have to agree with a lot of what Eagleye had written down. The Ganondorf boards say this is a 65:35 match-up in Ness' favor. I'm not sure if it's just the lack of experience or what, but Ganondorf seems a little more better in my opinion. Not better than Ness, but better than it being 65:35, as in maybe a little lower. Ganondorf is slow, but people forget how powerful he is and how early he can kill. While Ganondorf's attacks may be predictable, don't think that a good Ganondorf will be. They've got tricks and I've experienced them first hand.

 

[orange/xd]

In this matchup, I really like FH PKF -> aerials/PKF.

Ness wins. 60:40

also lol at chuee

 

[Chuee]

All of his options are incredibly slow. You should never get punished for using PKF unless you use it when he's right next to you.

 

[Delta-cod]

All of his options are incredibly slow. You should never get punished for using PKF unless you use it when he's right next to you.

No. Wizkick will punish it.

 

[The Nameless Wanderer]

Gah, nvm post.

 

[xoxokev]

ganon's side b beats shield. watch out for that...

 

[Vermanubis]

I'm going to have to say Ness is 65:35 with Ganondorf. I know some of you may disagree with this, but here are the reasons why.

People always say "Ganon is slow, but he's so powerful". Well, what you want to consider here is the fact that Ganon is like a shotgun wielded by a quadriplegic; he has power, but how's he gonna use it? Point being, Ganondorf is soslow that there's really no excuse for letting him near you unless they're a godly Ganondorf.

Ness' options for keeping Ganon away are a multitude. Fair out-prioritizes almost everything Ganon has from a frontal perspective, his aerial mobility allows for good spacing with fairs and PK fires and best yet, most of Ness's attack animations send him too low to be hit with a dair easily. The problem here with Ganondorf is that he completely lacks a good spacing move, rendering him completely helpless against Ness' spacing.

The trickiest part for Ness in this match-up is killing Ganondorf. That's when he has to start getting near him. But even then, it's not as dangerous as one would think, granted you're familiar with him. But Ness also still has bair, though it's a little less reliable than fsmash or bthrow. But conversely, Ganondorf has a hard time killing Ness as well, arguably more so than Ness does with Ganon. The reason being because Ganon, having limited options against Ness, has to adhere to a small handful of moves. Uair, bair and dair. Sure, he has other usable moves, but these are the ones that are most effective out of his options against Ness.

Having so few options, Ganondorf, with his horrible move decay, begins to stale his moves. This means that his conventional killing moves such as those listed above won't kill even a lighter character such as Ness until around 130%. To kill Ganondorf, Ness risks a good bit, but also has spacable killers such as bair and PK fire + follow-up to remain safe.

To keep it brief though, here's a list of pros and cons for the match-up:

Pros of this matchup (for Ganondorf):

-Ness can be killed fairly early if hit with a fresh move.
-Ness has a somewhat difficult time killing Ganon. He doesn't rack up damage very quickly either.
-Ness' relatively short range means Ganondorf can occassionaly shieldgrab him as a defensive response.
-Ness is easy to mindgame while recovering. You Ness players know that if someone's hogging the ledge, you adjust your trajectory a little higher so you'll be onstage. Ganon players can pressure you into recovering above the ledge to punish.
-Ness is easy to tech-chase due to a short roll animation.
-Ness is somewhat easy to pressure since he has jumping lag and has to use offense to be defensive. But this is highly circumstantial, in which the Ganon player would have to corner the Ness player at the ledge.

Cons for this match-up (For Ganondorf):

-Ness is almost always airborne. This means that warlock chokes are a no-go. If a Ness lets themselves get warlock choked, that's their own error. Warlock choke is pivotal to Ganon's punishment game and his game in general, so this hurts him a lot.
-Ganon cannot punish Ness' landings 98% of the time. Ness' nair cancels into the ground so it covers him in the air and he can immediately pull away or counter.
-Ness' can't be pressured on the ledge, since he can come up with a fair, which Ganon can't punish.
-Ganon has virtually no way of approaching Ness.
-Ganon's moves stale quickly against Ness, so he can be tough to kill in concurrence with an already tough time landing a kill move.

So, as you can see, they both have their respective pros and cons, but what gives Ness such a big edge is primarily the fact that he shuts down a lot of Ganon's options with his spacing and projectiles and disallows Ganon to really even approach effectively. Ganon can dish out some hurt, but these ways in which he can are circumstantial, whereas Ness' strenghts aren't. Ness can't rack up damage quickly, nor can he kill at low percents (usually), but his ability to camp Ganondorf is a great boon. Just avoid ftilt and fsmash and Ganon shouldn't kill you for quite some time, unless you're silly enough to roll into a dair.

So, yeah. I say 65:35. I've played a ton of Ness players, so I have a pretty decent deal of experience with them. Ganondorf can win, yeah, but Ness is just too able to camp him and punish him to even consider Ganondorf's kill potential. Ganondorf saving graces in this match-up are, yes, his power, and his ability to punish Ness' offensive attempts.

 

[A2ZOMG]

This matchup is much closer than 65/35.

Ness' options for keeping Ganon away are a multitude. Fair out-prioritizes almost everything Ganon has from a frontal perspective, his aerial mobility allows for good spacing with fairs and PK fires and best yet, most of Ness's attack animations send him too low to be hit with a dair easily. The problem here with Ganondorf is that he completely lacks a good spacing move, rendering him completely helpless against Ness' spacing.

Ness is a pretty bad character at keep away. His best option is retreating F-air, and Ganon has no trouble trading hits with Ness's F-air if he doesn't retreat it. It's very dangerous for Ness to challenge Ganon's F-smash, F-tilt, and U-air with F-air.

PK Fire is not a viable move, and should not be part of matchup discussions. If it's used, a player who knows the matchup will powershield it on reaction and punish it.

It's not hard for Ganon to challenge Ness since Ness just fails at range and isn't fast. He has more range on some quick moves. His N-air, U-air, and tilts are viable for Ganon to use to play keep away from Ness.

If Ness lands F-smash on you, you suck at this game. I don't care if you use Ganondorf. You really should not get hit by this move in competitive play ever. One of the worst attacks in the game by far. It doesn't actually outrange much, it's slow as balls, and easily punished, and you can deliberately powershield it on reaction since the charge release is horrible.

 

[SOLAR]

The beauty of Ness, is that when you adjust his play style, he can adapt to most characters (With the possible exception of Sheik).

I can't quite agree with the poster about Ness's landings not able to be punished. I do agree that the match is in Ness's favor, however. The well timed arials really give him an edge over a Ganon. PK Thunder and PK Fire are viable options. Ness has an easy time forcing the Ganon to approach, and controlling the match. Ganon has a very tough time using throws effectively vs Ness as well. Ness has a field day edge guarding Ganon.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Lol, Ness doesn't control anyone easily.

He should never get away with PK Fire in competitive play. PK Thunder is only viable for juggles and edgeguards, which it's "meh" at.

Even Ganon has little trouble getting into a position that makes Ness uncomfortable since he outranges Ness by a very significant margin and outdamages him, and Ness can't actually camp very effectively.

I call 55/45 to 6/4 Ness. Ness only wins because he has a more reliable KO move and because Ganon's recovery is just horrifyingly bad.

 

[Yink]

Lol, Ness doesn't control anyone easily.

He should never get away with PK Fire in competitive play. PK Thunder is only viable for juggles and edgeguards, which it's "meh" at.

Even Ganon has little trouble getting into a position that makes Ness uncomfortable since he outranges Ness by a very significant margin and outdamages him, and Ness can't actually camp very effectively.

I call 55/45 to 6/4 Ness. Ness only wins because he has a more reliable KO move and because Ganon's recovery is just horrifyingly bad.

I seriously disagree with it being as close as you state it. Also about PKF not being used in competitive play...yeah I just did it all day to people at a tournament. Ally, Lain and Affinity were all there. I did it multiple times to Affinity, just throwing that out there that people DO still get hit by it, you just need to be smart about it and not be a n00b and do it every other time you attack. I do it maybe, oh I don't know 4 times in a match (mostly offstage too).

This feels much better to me at 60-40. I don't think I'd particularly make it any lower than that.

So what if it juggles and edgeguards? That's pretty viable to me, it helps camp. That's just me though, of course.

I do however, agree with you saying he has a more reliable kill move than Ganon does, but 55-45 is just too low IMO. Sorry to disagree.

 

[A2ZOMG]

And what matchups do Ally, Affinity, and Lain play all day? Metaknight?

I'm talking about how tools work in a matchup discussion, not how x player gets owned by it because they make subpar choices.

Any respectable Ganon player however will actually try to make smart choices since that is the only way Ganon can fundamentally win. PK Fire and Thunder pose little threat as projectiles, and Ness's spacing game likewise doesn't come close to completely shutting down Ganon.

 

[Vermanubis]

This matchup is much closer than 65/35.

Ness is a pretty bad character at keep away. His best option is retreating F-air, and Ganon has no trouble trading hits with Ness's F-air if he doesn't retreat it. It's very dangerous for Ness to challenge Ganon's F-smash, F-tilt, and U-air with F-air.

When exactly is a Ness going to try to not retreat a fair? That and fair out-prioritizes ftilt and is often used too low to the ground for anything but a tippered uair to hit him, in which case, they'd just trade hits and the tip of Ganon's uair does 7% and even then it's stretching it because of the accuracy required to even trade hits with it. Secondly, Ness doesn't even need to get close enough for Ganon to fsmash or ftilt.

PK Fire is not a viable move, and should not be part of matchup discussions. If it's used, a player who knows the matchup will powershield it on reaction and punish it.

MK's dsmash will just be powershielded on reaction by someone who knows the match-up. See where I'm going with this? When you start arguing about powershielding and universal abilities, it comes down to the players rather than the characters. By your logic, Ganon's fsmash shouldn't be mentioned in match-up discussions, because it's far too slow to not be powershielded.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eH_UAQeBCzk

FOW disagrees with PK fire being nonviable.

It's not hard for Ganon to challenge Ness since Ness just fails at range and isn't fast. He has more range on some quick moves. His N-air, U-air, and tilts are viable for Ganon to use to play keep away from Ness.

Ness isn't going to approach with anything but fair. What makes you think an ftilt is going to go through a fair? Or that Ness will be high enough for uair to be used effectively? Nair is good circumstantially, but doing FH-nair walls won't get you very far as they're just that: walls. Ness doesn't have a great approach, or a great defense game, but he has enough priority with his fair alone to make getting near him difficult. You also forget that Ness is very mobile in the air, so trying to hit him while he's airborne can result in you missing and being punished.

If Ness lands F-smash on you, you suck at this game. I don't care if you use Ganondorf. You really should not get hit by this move in competitive play ever. One of the worst attacks in the game by far. It doesn't actually outrange much, it's slow as balls, and easily punished, and you can deliberately powershield it on reaction since the charge release is horrible.

K. Never said it was great. Just more killing power than bair, unless sweetspotted.

But, A2Z, your main argument revolves around Ganondorf being able to magically transcend Ness' fairs and circumvent his aerial mobility. Point is that Ness isn't an impossible match-up by any means, but his size, aerial speed and priority on his aerials makes it difficult for Ganon to:

A. Kill him.
B. Get close enough to him to use a kill move
C. Hit him

Ftilt and uair are not all-encompassing magic tricks for this match-up. They're great, but they're not nearly as versatile against Ness as you suggest.

 

[A2ZOMG]

When exactly is a Ness going to try to not retreat a fair? That and fair out-prioritizes ftilt and is often used too low to the ground for anything but a tippered uair to hit him, in which case, they'd just trade hits and the tip of Ganon's uair does 7% and even then it's stretching it because of the accuracy required to even trade hits with it. Secondly, Ness doesn't even need to get close enough for Ganon to fsmash or ftilt.

Stage control him, since retreating infinitely is not possible for any character.

F-tilt trades hits if you time it/space right. I've done this quite a bit.

MK's dsmash will just be powershielded on reaction by someone who knows the match-up. See where I'm going with this? When you start arguing about powershielding and universal abilities, it comes down to the players rather than the characters. By your logic, Ganon's fsmash shouldn't be mentioned in match-up discussions, because it's far too slow to not be powershielded.

Ganon's F-smash actually has a respectable charge release, making it fairly hard to powershield on reaction, and it has massive range making it a somewhat viable punish option. Ness's F-smash however, not to mention his PK Fire are in fact moves that will be consistently powershielded by someone who knows the matchup.

Ness isn't going to approach with anything but fair. What makes you think an ftilt is going to go through a fair? Or that Ness will be high enough for uair to be used effectively? Nair is good circumstantially, but doing FH-nair walls won't get you very far as they're just that: walls. Ness doesn't have a great approach, or a great defense game, but he has enough priority with his fair alone to make getting near him difficult. You also forget that Ness is very mobile in the air, so trying to hit him while he's airborne can result in you missing and being punished.

His F-air doesn't have nearly as much range as you think it does.

If you're good, you will find a way to trade hits with it.

But, A2Z, your main argument revolves around Ganondorf being able to magically transcend Ness' fairs and circumvent his aerial mobility. Point is that Ness isn't an impossible match-up by any means, but his size, aerial speed and priority on his aerials makes it difficult for Ganon to:

A. Kill him.
B. Get close enough to him to use a kill move
C. Hit him

Ftilt and uair are not all-encompassing magic tricks for this match-up. They're great, but they're not nearly as versatile against Ness as you suggest.

Hitting Ness or getting close to him isn't hard for Ganon at all. Killing him is the hard part, but can be navigated around to some extent through edgeguards.

 

[Uffe]

This matchup is much closer than 65/35.

Ness is a pretty bad character at keep away. His best option is retreating F-air, and Ganon has no trouble trading hits with Ness's F-air if he doesn't retreat it. It's very dangerous for Ness to challenge Ganon's F-smash, F-tilt, and U-air with F-air.

Did you fail to realize that Ganondorf has no projectile and is slow? To say that Ness is pretty bad at keep away, well I'm not even sure how to express my words on that opinion.

PK Fire is not a viable move, and should not be part of matchup discussions. If it's used, a player who knows the matchup will powershield it on reaction and punish it.

While PK Fire is not suggested, a player who knows the match-up will not always powershield it unless that Ness player is being predictable and stupid.

It's not hard for Ganon to challenge Ness since Ness just fails at range and isn't fast. He has more range on some quick moves. His N-air, U-air, and tilts are viable for Ganon to use to play keep away from Ness.

First off, Ness doesn't even need to keep a distance from Ganondorf. Another thing, Ness is fast, thanks.

If Ness lands F-smash on you, you suck at this game. I don't care if you use Ganondorf. You really should not get hit by this move in competitive play ever. One of the worst attacks in the game by far. It doesn't actually outrange much, it's slow as balls, and easily punished, and you can deliberately powershield it on reaction since the charge release is horrible.

If Ness' f-smash hits you, you suck? Really? Maybe I should say the same thing about Meta Knight's f-smash since it's slower than Ness'. You sound like you have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Did you fail to realize that Ganondorf has no projectile and is slow? To say that Ness is pretty bad at keep away, well I'm not even sure how to express my words on that opinion.

Ness only has retreating F-air to keep people out, and everything else is entirely possible to outspace. That's a horrible keepaway game. And while Ganon is slow, Ness isn't blisteringly fast, nor does he have good range. He cannot keep out Ganondorf very consistently like several characters.

While PK Fire is not suggested, a player who knows the match-up will not always powershield it unless that Ness player is being predictable and stupid.

That isn't a valid argument. Ness's PK Fire is too slow to be a viable move. Against a player who plays smart and doesn't do dumb approaches, there is no real application to this move on stage. Your opponent has to screw up in order for you to get away with this move.

First off, Ness doesn't even need to keep a distance from Ganondorf. Another thing, Ness is fast, thanks.

Ganon outranges Ness, and outdamages him, so I highly doubt approaching Ganon is the best option for Ness.

Ness isn't fast. He has low run speed and fairly low aerial top speed, and he's really floaty. His startup and ending lag is generally average, and he has no range.

If Ness' f-smash hits you, you suck? Really? Maybe I should say the same thing about Meta Knight's f-smash since it's slower than Ness'. You sound like you have no idea what you're talking about.

Yes, you shouldn't be getting hit by those moves. Metaknight's F-smash however is a much better move in terms of range and ending lag and charge release, which makes it a MUCH more useful move. Ness's F-smash has no such advantages however.

 

[Levitas]

And what matchups do Ally, Affinity, and Lain play all day? Metaknight?

Did you honestly just throw out 3 top players as examples because they're inexperienced? I just want to point that out. I really don't want to need to point out exactly how this is analogous to saying that milk isn't "milky" enough.

Any respectable Ganon player however will actually try to make smart choices since that is the only way Ganon can fundamentally win. PK Fire and Thunder pose little threat as projectiles, and Ness's spacing game likewise doesn't come close to completely shutting down Ganon.

Ganon = bad therefore ganon players = good makes a lot of sense to me. That's why top players like m2k, ally, and lain use terrible characters like ganon.

Everyone with a brain tries to make smart calls.

PKT and PKF are minimally effective on their own, but it is definitely possible to trap opponents into either yomi with them, or just force them to hit by situation. PKF is good at intercepting people who need to use their double jump and up b to make it to the edge, for instance.

 

[Bartolon]

FH PKF on ganon's shield to rising nair (Ganon can't punish it, maybe with a dash attack but probably not.)
I don't know if you ever got trapped with ganon in a FH PKF but it's a pain.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Did you honestly just throw out 3 top players as examples because they're inexperienced? I just want to point that out. I really don't want to need to point out exactly how this is analogous to saying that milk isn't "milky" enough.

The point is I'm asking what proves that they know how to play a specific matchup any better than you or I can? Name dropping is not a particularly good argument, as I'm trying to explain to a person above me. In a matchup discussion, you discuss tools and options for dealing with tools, not what some random player gets hit by.

Ganon = bad therefore ganon players = good makes a lot of sense to me. That's why top players like m2k, ally, and lain use terrible characters like ganon.

Everyone with a brain tries to make smart calls.

You'll see people playing better characters get lazy and throw out their usual walls if they don't know a particular matchup. If you're playing any decent Ganon, they WILL powershield predictable and slow projectiles like a good player is supposed to. I'm suggesting that several of you don't fully fathom how easy it is to do if you just have the right mindset.

Explaining that PK Fire is viable for edgeguards is what I'm looking for, and I'll respond that it's frankly not good unless the opponent DIs really badly.

 

[Yink]

Name dropping is a fine argument, Affinity even uses Ness as his Low Tier, he said so himself. So he knows what Ness is like. It's just an example.

I'm not so much stating that I'm godlike with Ness because I know I'm not, I'm just saying that Ness does fine with his projectiles if you use them well. They do well if you're smart. I also already said I use PKF for off-stage purposes.

 

[Levitas]

I didn't know about affinity, but samurai panda tends to use ness semi regularly, and Ally and Lain both pretty much lived at his place last summer. In other words, while name dropping doesn't necessarily mean much, you picked 3 of the worst top players to suggest ignorance on.

PKF'd your up b. Spiked you because you were stuck as a fatty in the air in a pillar. that's a kill, and it's pretty effective considering how much you seem to not like pk fire ever being used.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'm not so much stating that I'm godlike with Ness because I know I'm not, I'm just saying that Ness does fine with his projectiles if you use them well. They do well if you're smart. I also already said I use PKF for off-stage purposes.

I can also interpret this as:

"You can hit ppl with PK Fire if you're smarter than them and outplay them!"

Outplaying people =/= valid application. Your argument doesn't do anything to address what Ness can do against an opponent who approaches calmly without throwing out unnecessary attacks.

PK Fire offstage is probably the "best" use of PK Fire in terms of being fairly safe, except even that is unlikely to work against an opponent who DIs well.

As for PK Firing Ganon's Up-B, you have to first call that he's recovering low, jump past him and THEN PK fire from offstage...when you might as well have been able to edgehog him anyway.

 

[Yink]

I really thank you for the compliment, but, respectfully I deny that I am much better than Lain, Ally or Affinity.

I do however also insist that you might be a tad confused and should note that they're somewhat um, "better" than I am, yes?

 

[A2ZOMG]

People don't have to be worse than you to be outplayed in certain situations. Almost everything Ganon does in any given matchup, particularly just plain landing hits, is based on outplaying people in specific situations.

This doesn't change the fact that Ness's options are limited and that he doesn't come close to shutting down Ganondorf. Thus I say the matchup ranges from 55/45 to 6/4 Ness. The advantages Ness has are pretty small once Ganon learns that his superior range allows him to trade hits a lot of the time, and Ness doesn't really stop Ganon from "approaching" since he doesn't have a respectable camp game.

 

[Yink]

This feels much better to me at 60-40. I don't think I'd particularly make it any lower than that.

People don't have to be worse than you to be outplayed in certain situations. Almost everything Ganon does in any given matchup, particularly just plain landing hits, is based on outplaying people in specific situations.

This doesn't change the fact that Ness's options are limited and that he doesn't come close to shutting down Ganondorf. Thus I say the matchup ranges from 55/45 to 6/4 Ness. The advantages Ness has are pretty small once Ganon learns that his superior range allows him to trade hits a lot of the time, and Ness doesn't really stop Ganon from "approaching" since he doesn't have a respectable camp game.

Well I'm happy to see you agree with me then! Thanks a lot. (I saw this on the last page, but I think I should thank you now)

This is actually a great discussion, thanks for giving us a lot of input, I just wish more Ganons would come in to talk about this MU with us. I don't think I'd want to go as low however than 60-40. It's not in any way really, Impossible.

 

[Uffe]

Ness only has retreating F-air to keep people out, and everything else is entirely possible to outspace. That's a horrible keepaway game. And while Ganon is slow, Ness isn't blisteringly fast, nor does he have good range. He cannot keep out Ganondorf very consistently like several characters.

Actually he has retreating nair and bair as well. Nair pushes the opponent back and makes it possible for Ness, believe it or not, combo them. Bair is a dangerous attack that you could trick your opponent into thinking you'll hit them and possibly force them to come towards you, thus making it possible for you to strike them with it.

That isn't a valid argument. Ness's PK Fire is too slow to be a viable move. Against a player who plays smart and doesn't do dumb approaches, there is no real application to this move on stage. Your opponent has to screw up in order for you to get away with this move.

Of course it's valid. Do you think that the other player you're fighting knows what attack you're going to use? No, unless again you're being predictable. As for smart players, believe it or not, even the smartest players makes dumb decisions at some point during a match. With PK Fire, you can use it in the air, pivot it, camp under a platform with it making it hard for the other player to do something about it and so on.

Ganon outranges Ness, and outdamages him, so I highly doubt approaching Ganon is the best option for Ness.

Then what is Ness going to do? Run around? Yeah, that sounds like it'd be in Ganondorf's favor if that were the case. Your opponent blocks, grab them. If they dodge, wait out an attack or use a laggy one. No Ness player is just going to go at their opponent only to have their attack blocked and punished.

Ness isn't fast. He has low run speed and fairly low aerial top speed, and he's really floaty. His startup and ending lag is generally average, and he has no range.

If I do recall correctly, Ness has one of the best aerials in the game. And if you want to talk about range, see IC's grabs. Ness' range is about average. Maybe not as great as Ganondorf's, but trust me, Ganondorf isn't exactly foolproof against Ness.

Yes, you shouldn't be getting hit by those moves. Metaknight's F-smash however is a much better move in terms of range and ending lag and charge release, which makes it a MUCH more useful move. Ness's F-smash has no such advantages however.

Meta Knight's f-smash doesn't have anymore range than Ness' bat. There is a small hitbox on the end of Ness' f-smash that isn't visible that causes a tipper. Ness' f-smash isn't useless and a well-pivoted f-smash makes his Bat useful. Anyway, I'm not even sure why his f-smash was brought up anyway. It's probably one of the least used smash attacks from him. But that doesn't mean it's useless.

 

[xoxokev]

wow. tl;dr. 60:40 ness. lol.

 

[Eagleye893]

I actually played extraordinarily well against dla one smashfest. I got him down to one stock and I didn't lose any, then all of a sudden he whips out some WTF combos that I can't escape and lose... I made up for it next game, but lost against his dk... By missing with a spike...

If I hadn't been careless, the set would have been mine...

 

[orange/xd]

I think this one is more than 60:40...idk

 

[A2ZOMG]

Actually he has retreating nair and bair as well. Nair pushes the opponent back and makes it possible for Ness, believe it or not, combo them. Bair is a dangerous attack that you could trick your opponent into thinking you'll hit them and possibly force them to come towards you, thus making it possible for you to strike them with it.

N-air doesn't combo into anything, what are you trying to tell me? That move has too much ending lag and landing lag to reliably combo into anything. Maybe you can trick people into getting F-aired out of N-air if they don't know what they're doing.

B-air is dangerous yes. It has no range, so everyone and their mother outspaces this move, and it even requires a sweetspot.

If course it's valid. Do you think that the other player you're fighting knows what attack you're going to use? No, unless again you're being predictable. As for smart players, believe it or not, even the smartest players makes dumb decisions at some point during a match. With PK Fire, you can use it in the air, pivot it, camp under a platform with it making it hard for the other player to do something about it and so on.

PK Fire telegraphs itself, so it's the players fault if they leave themselves so open that they literally can't avoid the move.

Yes everyone makes mistakes, but this doesn't change that everyone is also capable of improving and learning proper reaction. Even most of the high level players for Brawl have MUCH room to improve, and many a matchup has yet to be properly represented in tournament due to how few truly good players there are for this game.

No matter where you use it from, if the opponent knows how to powershield it, it's not worth using. Ganon can attempt DAs or Flame Chokes out of shield after powershielding grounded PK Fires. Aerial PK Fires aren't exactly safe either provided the other player knows how to observe spacing. Ganon's huge U-air is not something Ness wants to be near.

If I do recall correctly, Ness has one of the best aerials in the game. And if you want to talk about range, see IC's grabs. Ness' range is about average. Maybe not as great as Ganondorf's, but trust me, Ganondorf isn't exactly foolproof against Ness.

Ness's range is far below average.

Do some actual tests and realize that he's actually trying to compete with Mario, Luigi, and Wario on several moves (they outrange him on a number of moves, he outranges them on a few others), characters who are generally criticized for having bad range. Now, the other thing is that he's significantly slower than those characters in some way (against Mario and Luigi, they have less ending lag AND better startup, while Wario has MUCH better mobility).

If you're trying to tell me Ness has one of the best aerials in the game, I assume you mean F-air. Alright, it's a decent move, but one of the best? Hell no. It's largely a generic spacing move. Nothing really wrong with it, except it's NOT THAT AMAZING. It doesn't kill, and most characters can actually try to trade hits with it and win in terms of damage if he dares to approach (although it does have some viable combo setups I will give). Furthermore, there are moves that are MUCH better spacers that have less commitment, more range, and in several cases moderate KO potential.

There is a huuuuuuge gap between Ness's F-air, and what actually are the best aerials in this game.

 

[Zankoku]

Outplaying people =/= valid application.

Incidentally, unless the character matchup is horribly skewed in your favor, I would think that you generally beat opponents by outplaying them.

 

[AvariceX]

What a coincidence, I played Ray Kalm in tourney yesterday.

disclaimer: Ray Kalm beat me pretty solidly but is also a much, much smarter/better player than I.

This matchup consists of 2 things: retreat fair, and spam PKT until he can't take it anymore.

Really, that's it; just run the timer in this matchup. Trying to get in close to kill Ganon is waaaay too risky. Run the timer. It's at least 60:40 in Ness' favor.

 

[A2ZOMG]

This matchup consists of 2 things: retreat fair, and spam PKT until he can't take it anymore.

Really, that's it; just run the timer in this matchup. Trying to get in close to kill Ganon is waaaay too risky. Run the timer. It's at least 60:40 in Ness' favor.

LOL really?

It's no worse than 6/4 Ness for Ganon then.

I find it really silly that you would attempt to run the timer with Ness...even if it's viable against a garbage character, although frankly, Ness isn't anything close to unapproachable. And besides, PKT isn't very threatening, and pretty massively laggy, and then there is the question how you're even going to constantly retreat F-air.

If I were you...I would rather spotdodge on reaction or shieldcamp him instead of trying to PKT camp him, since that is much more likely to kill him, and fundamentally more reliable.