Ness vs. Ganon

[AvariceX]

Well, maybe that's why he beat me

I'm not that good... I play this game more than 90% of the players I know and never get anywhere lol. I would in fact rather pretend I wasn't even at that tourney yesterday since after my performance I'm ashamed to even exist ><.

 

[Dajayman]

I just find it funny how much Mario mains hate Ness.

Anyways, I think the matchup is slightly in Ness' favor, it is at most 60/40. Most people fail to realize that Ganon only needs about 10 hits to be able to kill you. This is how people like DLA are able to do this. Even the best make mistakes, and Ganon exploits these mistakes well.

I agree with A2ZOMG in that fair isn't that great of a move. It's best uses are defensive retreating and ACing it's first hits for combos. The damage it does is nothing great at all, you're lucky if does more than 5%. The most fair does is interrupt and annoy opponents. Fair of course does this very well on Ganon since Ganon has no tools to deal with a retreating fair.

Fair isn't Ness' only aerial you know. ALL of Ness' aerials are pretty solid aerials. Unless the character has a sword or a crazy bair like DDD, all of Ness' aerials can compete with or outperform other aerials. Ganon's aerials imo are outperformed by Ness' aerials. Ganon's only really good aerial is uair, which I know Ness' dair can trade hits with. So basically in the air Ganon is only at an advantage if Ness is above and in front of him and if Ness is below him (Ganon's dair is also pretty legit, it'll beat our uair if given time to startup).

There are plenty of times to hit with pkf. Nobody plays 100% defense ever in a game, there are chances to use it. Also pkf is pretty safe when spaced well and/or pivoted, so if it's powershielded you will probably be safe against most characters. If pkf is spaced well against Ganon, the worst you'll get is a Wiz Kick which is risky for Ganon since there is a chance Ness can powershield that.

Pkt forces Ganon to approach, and Ness has a lot of options while using his pkt. Even if Ganon knows these options, Ness usually can pick the best option and be safe or successfully offensive. Pkt can lead to pkt2 (offensively or retreating), floorblast (with a offensive or defensive followup), tailwhipping to prevent approach, and basic/complex pkt mindgames like circling, looping, etc., etc.

Fsmash is pretty bad, I won't lie. Brawl just really f'd up on this move, it's near useless. This will hit every once in a bluemoon, but it's sort of safe if spaced well unless it gets powershielded or the character has good oos options to punish it. I agree with you that this move really won't be hitting anyone in a competitve game.

 

[Levitas]

I almost want to create a list of ganon's moves that are longer than 48 frames.

12 hefty frames to react to ganon throwing out a move from out of range (barely ok for a reaction time)

21 frames for ness to subsequently get a bolt of pkf from the player's fingers to ness's fingers (wow that's slow)

15 frames (approx.) for the pk fire to get to the ganon from where he is (also a long time, this ness must have been pretty far away)

I don't know of a single player that doesn't throw out moves. The list of moves that last longer than 48 frames therefore would be a list of moves that could result in ganon getting pk fired, should ganon miss without forcing an action such as spot-dodge/roll.

 

[Yink]

I just find it funny how much Mario mains hate Ness.

He doesn't hate Ness. He just knows Ness is a terrible character (I admit to that too, but believe you can make it with him because you can learn to use him well).

 

[AllyKnight]

Yink is too good, made me cry in a corner ;(

 

[ViceGrip]

A2 I don't think you've played a top Ness before. I go to Santa Barbara all the time, just play me and i know you'll change your mind about a lot of this. Ness/gannon is DEFIINITELY 60/40 or worse with Ness being in favor. No doubt about it. As long as you stay in the air, play defensive, aren't stupid with laggy projectiles, and don't challenge gannon's uair with dair he really can't do anything. Also i play Vato_break all the time in person and it's a rare occasion when he beats me so I don't know what that says about the Ness/Mario matchup but I really don't see how Mario could have an advantage. I'm of the opinion it's the other way around. Mario does not have enough reliable killers meanwhile Ness has several options ( mario's just being primarily usmash and dsmash- fsmash isn't reliable enough to be considered imo, too easy to see coming because it's what you mainly watch out for). and this is a crucial aspect of the matchup because they can both reliably deal damage to each other.

 

[Bartolon]

I disagree. Mario has a lil advantage for sure.

 

[Levitas]

what that says about the Ness/Mario matchup

I disagree. Mario has a lil advantage for sure.

Ness vs. Ganon

huh? *is confused*

 

[Dajayman]

Marios and Nesses hate each other. Worse than Mario hates Bowser.

 

[ViceGrip]

No we don't lol. it's just a running gag. My bad with the Mario tangent, ignore me if you will.

 

[Delta-cod]

Mario and Ness feud reminds me of the Yoshi and Wolf feud.

Anyways.

Back to Ganon ladies.

 

[Dajayman]

There's a Yoshi/Wolf feud?! How and why?

Sorry for getting offtopic, but I'm just curious. And I did write up a ton about the subject a few posts back.

 

[Uffe]

Mario mains don't hate Ness. O___o Anyway, I think this match-up is 60:40 or 55:45, Ness. That's just how I've always seen it. But with Ganondorf mains saying it's 65:35, Ness and the Ness mains saying it's 60:40, Ness, then I'm not sure which one to believe. By the way, nice new avatar, ViceGrip. Is it Ness with Cyclops' beam device?

 

[Chuee]

I'd go into the Mario MU but I don't wanna get off topic.
The MU isn't that bad it's just that Ganon is SO easy to play against.

 

[ViceGrip]

Gannon's think he has an advantage on Ness??? wahhhh? this seriously blows my mind : /.

Yes good guess Uffe, it IS Ness with a cyclops visor on hehe.

 

[Uffe]

Gannon's think he has an advantage on Ness??? wahhhh? this seriously blows my mind : /.

Yes good guess Uffe, it IS Ness with a cyclops visor on hehe.

I'm pretty sure Ganondorf mains don't think they have an advantage on Ness. If I do recall correctly, they said it was 65:35, Ness' favor. I feel it's 60:40, at least. As for the Cyclops Ness, I demand someone who is good at texture hacking make that Ness! The visor and that shirt both look really good.

 

[ViceGrip]

oooooooh, I see. yea it's either 60/40 or worse in Ness's favor. Gannon just shouldn't be able to get in Ness's zone and the main thing i see him possibly hitting with is a dair if you are within stomping range and happen to short hop anything but fair. Dair will just beat out anything else ness puts out if they both do a move at the same time near each other ( i.e. if Ness uses nair/dair).

I'm glad you think so, the visor doesn't look half bad on Ness surprisingly, haha.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I find it funny that you guys immediately assumed that I came here because I hate Ness. Oh no, that's not it at all. If anything, I think Ness is a cool character, and that Earthbound is an amazing RPG.

Ganon however has infinite manliness and is the wielder of the Triforce of power, thus he has priority over Ness in the universe of Nintendo, so he's one of my secondaries. I come here representing a Ganon user's point of view of this matchup, and even though he may be the worst character in the game, I will not permit him to be improperly represented.

If you think Ganon only has U-air in this matchup, you're dead wrong. His B-air is a very solid move for challenging aerial approaches, and his N-air is also a GREAT aerial, his second best aerial overall by virtue of its range and speed. Ganon's superior range and higher damage output means that it's very risky for Ness to approach Ganon. I will point out however that Ganon should almost never be D-airing unless you really suck with dashgrabs.

Ganon also has better tilts, and his F-smash, while in many ways a terrible move, is a somewhat viable punish option by virtue of it's ridiculous range and priority.

As for Mario vs Ness...that's a totally different matchup. If you want to discuss that matchup next, I have a lot of reasons why it's fundamentally in Mario's favor.

And you'll have to let me know when you're in SB...I'm always looking for good competition...since I still suck. =P

Gannon just shouldn't be able to get in Ness's zone and the main thing i see him possibly hitting with is a dair if you are within stomping range and happen to short hop anything but fair

Oh **** you, you deserve to be GANNON BANNED. I'll see to it myself when we do finally meet.

 

[Z1GMA]

70 : 30

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ness is waaaaaaaay too limited for this to be a 70/30 in his favor. He doesn't come close to shutting down Ganon if you know what you're doing against him.

 

[ViceGrip]

hehe I second Gannon and I'll let ya know next time I'm there again : ). Ya someone will come get you when we go discuss mario I'm sure. Gannon is definitely manly, no one is disagreeing with that , haha.

 

[Bartolon]

Lol I have so much experience against mario ****. xD

60-40 for ness I think.
I still think FH PKF is too good vs ganon

 

[PK-ow!]

Ness doesn't have smashes.

Ness' aerials are slow.


Ness doesn't actually have projectiles. He can't move while he's using his specials.


Ganon can outrange Ness. Ganon can't be trapped by PK Fire or PK Thunder. (Ness' PKFire is useless to begin with, remember?) Ganon has lethal choke followups on Ness.

Ganon can almost spam rolls and Ness can't do ****. Ness spends the entire fight trying to get inside Ganon, and for Ganon being unable to do anything, Ness can land (dtilt trip) -> jabs. Everywhere else, Ganon has something he probably doesn't have against any other character, the holy Grail of Ganon players: moves that answer more than one action from his opponent. As in, he actually has options as a character rather than just having to yomi the other player for the whole Ganon**** fight.



Ness would have more success switching his FAir spam to DAir spam in this matchup. Ganon needs a difficult-to-obtain spacing to avoid it and punish, or block and still hit out of shield. EDIT: On reaction. He can jab any jump at close range on prediction.


But now we've basically reduced Ness' options to three attacks (when he doesn't have control).


Ness is garbage.


But Ganon still has no such thing as an approach or pressure of any kind.\
Ganon has to fear going offstage, and he won't kill much earlier than Ness due to reliability, but his DAir loves that red cap. If he doesn't get baited outside of center stage, he's got this. With patience and endurance, he's chances are as good as they get.


60:40.

 

[MrsSaturnandWatch]

I MMed Inui at Paradigems Saturday, lost, but it's fine lol (only a dollar to learn a MU? : O)

Main problem was I thought Ganon was a really slow character entirely until I played Inui's Ganon. Games were close I suppose.

All I can say is retreat Fairs, as S1-14 said, FH PKFs, and Nair.
Ganon's bair is a

, so watch out for that. I'd go BF, FD, or SV. Cps would be RC (adjusting is the key, make the stage work for you) or Brinstar. I'd be kinda effy choosing Delfino but personal preference.

55/45 (Dead arse)

 

[ViceGrip]

Brinstar is a terrible pick, gannon is great on that stage, Uair takes up practically a good 1/4 of it lol. Rc doesn't seem that great against Ganny either, hmmm. Also Delfino is decent because he can sd when he falem chokes next to the floating platform but I'd rather not risked getting spiked (even though ness can do the same thing). you shouldn't need to cp Gannon. Just beat him on a neutral- seriously.

 

[Chuee]

Brinstar is a terrible pick, gannon is great on that stage, Uair takes up practically a good 1/4 of it lol. Rc doesn't seem that great against Ganny either, hmmm. Also Delfino is decent because he can sd when he falem chokes next to the floating platform but I'd rather not risked getting spiked (even though ness can do the same thing). you shouldn't need to cp Gannon. Just beat him on a neutral- seriously.

Oh **** you, you deserve to be GANNON BANNED. I'll see to it myself when we do finally meet.

Vice it's ganon ._.
Anyways Ganon isn't really good on any stage.

 

[MrsSaturnandWatch]

PGN MMed Inui before I did, took him (Ganon) to Brinstar (as Nesh) and won

Pretty legit, but it's up in the air D:


RC ruins Ganon's recovery (same goes for Ness' but...yeah)
Get lucky, who knows.

 

[Uffe]

I find it funny that you guys immediately assumed that I came here because I hate Ness. Oh no, that's not it at all. If anything, I think Ness is a cool character, and that Earthbound is an amazing RPG.

I wouldn't say, "you guys," since I don't believe some of us ever claimed that. I know I wasn't thinking that, anyway.

Ganon however has infinite manliness and is the wielder of the Triforce of power, thus he has priority over Ness in the universe of Nintendo, so he's one of my secondaries. I come here representing a Ganon user's point of view of this matchup, and even though he may be the worst character in the game, I will not permit him to be improperly represented.

Agreed with the first statement and as for him being your secondary, I see no problem representing him. I was just defending Ness in some parts that I disagreed with out of my experiences vs Ganondorf. Perhaps you were doing the same, so I apologize if I seemed bias in any way.

If you think Ganon only has U-air in this matchup, you're dead wrong. His B-air is a very solid move for challenging aerial approaches, and his N-air is also a GREAT aerial, his second best aerial overall by virtue of its range and speed. Ganon's superior range and higher damage output means that it's very risky for Ness to approach Ganon. I will point out however that Ganon should almost never be D-airing unless you really suck with dashgrabs.

I'm not really sure about nis nair, but I do know his uair is a threat for Ness if he's above him and bair is a killer move from what I've seen. The one thing I hate the most about fighting Ganondorf is his dairs. I sometimes find myself in a terrible position and get hit with that.

Ganon also has better tilts, and his F-smash, while in many ways a terrible move, is a somewhat viable punish option by virtue of it's ridiculous range and priority.

Versus Ness' f-smash, I do agree that it is better, if that's what you were talking about a few pages back.

As for Mario vs Ness...that's a totally different matchup. If you want to discuss that matchup next, I have a lot of reasons why it's fundamentally in Mario's favor.

I think you missed that one. That or that was on the Mario boards when we were discussing Ness vs Mario. It's 55:45, Mario IIRC.

Oh **** you, you deserve to be GANNON BANNED. I'll see to it myself when we do finally meet.

I saw that, too. XD But he's ViceGrip, what are you going to do? You know? XD

70 : 30

That's waaay too steep if you ask me. At least 60:40.

 

[Noobicidal]

I split main Ganon and Puff, but I've yet to play a competent Ness, so I can't offer any actual advice or ratios of my own.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Brinstar is one of Ganon's best stages if he knows what he's doing. The terrain kinda sucks for his autocancels, but the stage is small and easy for him to control, small blastzones make it much easier for him to kill, and he gets "free" Ganoncides when the lava comes up.

 

[ViceGrip]

^^ This.

Also gannon is supposed to be pretty good at norfair, though few regions have that stage legal. Once again i'd say just to stick to neutrals, ness should have it in the bag, don't let any gay stage steal a win from you.

 

[Magus-Cie]

Vice it's ganon ._.
Anyways Ganon isn't really good on any stage.

Ahem. Pirate Ship is a wonderful level for Ganon. Aside from being able to Ganoncide off the front edge, small stage so he can control it more easily, especially if he uses the tilting of the ship to his advantage. Dairs kill just about anywhere.

Also gannon is supposed to be pretty good at norfair, though few regions have that stage legal. Once again i'd say just to stick to neutrals, ness should have it in the bag, don't let any gay stage steal a win from you.

I play a few Ness' and they always go for neutrals. Just watch out for becoming predictable with your PK Fires, and space your Fairs carefully.

Wiz kick goes right over Ness' PK fire, and GDorf can ftilt through your Fair if you space it improperly.

 

[Dajayman]

Ganon owns Metroid lava/acid stages because of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9790yPIRLtU

 

[GreyClover]

Ganon owns Metroid lava/acid stages because of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9790yPIRLtU

You shouldn't be ever be hurt from lava/acid unless Ganon hits you into it. Besides if you are hit just DI away from Ganon.

 

[MagicMike]

Just sayin. The clips from that vid that I saw before getting bored. They looked unrealistic. Would anybody seriously jump INTO the lava? That vid just looks cool because somebody dies, nothing else.

 

[Kitamerby]

I beat FOW with Ganon a few times.

He's never going to live that one down.

 

[Bartolon]

FOW = Overrated ;D

 

[A2ZOMG]

Well as it turns out, Vice actually knows the Ganon matchup since he actually has a legit Ganon, so unfortunately for me, he owned me since Ganon just sucks and because Vice's playstyle punishes bad spotdodging habits sooooo hard lol.

I do however have some entertaining matches saved. I personally think I could have played better with some spacing adjustments (but would still have lost since Ganon of course doesn't win the matchup), but you'll have to see for yourself when I upload the videos. =)

 

[Uffe]

FOW = Overrated ;D

I like FOW a lot, and it's sad that he doesn't even have to brag about being good for someone to overrate him. I mean, sure, he's got a good Ness, but people act like he's the only good Ness out there. So when people come here and say, "I beat FOW with <insertcharacter>," they act like they've accomplished something when really they didn't. When you beat M2K or Ally with a lower tier, then come and tell us.