New discovery: Infinite jumping with most characters! (STOP POSTING, USE NEW THREAD)

[Homelessvagrant]

Samurai Panda, have any of the people in the smash back room (I'm referring mostly to the tourny pros) tried LSJing yet? They are supposedly our tactical experts so I'm interested if any of them have any success trying out the LSJ.

 

[Makkun]

Yeah. Makes sense. XP

By the way, it seems like the timing for this can be made easier by jumping, attacking, second-jumping, then attempting the technique. It is similar to how Snake can time the cooking for a grenade by jumping, dropping it, then using uair to grab it in mid air and time the explosion.

Example - Bowser's Nair.

 

[Magus420]

Yeah, interchanging ISJ with true ISJ to distinguish between doing it infinitely vs doing it only once is a bit too confusing. I think we could reserve the term ISJ for attacks that can be done infinitely, and simply accept the fact that you can do a single instant second jump with any aerial in the game provided you have the precise timing. So Ganon cannot ISJ with his Fair, but he can do a single instant second jump with the right timing. But Ganon can presumably ISJ with any of his other aerials.

Or maybe we could change the terms to something like "lagless second jump" (LSJ) to refer to the second jump itself, but "infinite lagless second jump" (ILSJ) for when attacks can be infinitely done with this. Seems less confusing that way.

Or maybe call it something that has to do with restoring the 2nd jump?

2nd jumps already have 0 startup lag and are lagless =P

Unless by 'lagless second jump' it really is saying something like 'No landing lag when landing then go instantly into an additional 2nd jump'... that's implying a lot of things that aren't actually in the name of the move.

 

[Makkun]

Or maybe call it something that has to do with restoring the 2nd jump?

2nd jumps already have 0 startup lag and are lagless =P

Unless by 'lagless second jump' it really is saying something like 'No landing lag when landing then go instantly into an additional 2nd jump'... that's implying a lot of things that aren't actually in the name of the move.

How about SJR? Second-jump restore?

It's simple and explains what it does.

Then there's Inifinite second-jump restore.

 

[3xSwords]

Can you do this w/o using an attack at all?

Also I liked ISJ and TISJ but LSJ and ILSJ are cool too

 

[Magus420]

How about SJR? Second-jump restore?

It's simple and explains what it does.

Then there's Inifinite second-jump restore.

LOL, I was actually thinking of suggesting just that, so I agree.

 

[Makkun]

Can you do this w/o using an attack at all?

Also I liked ISJ and TISJ but LSJ and ILSJ are cool too

I'm 99.9% sure you need to use an attack to do this. The only exception would be some super wacky timing or button combo that would do it...

Edit: @Magus: Yay lulz. Okay so then that's it? I was thinking, this thread needs to either be remade or edited a lot in the first post. It's not very updated. XP

 

[GeekY]

so i didnt go through all the posts too many of them lol ^_^. but in the video he only had 1 extra jump, is it possible to keep doing it more than once? Hence INFINITE JUMP? lol. and can this be done with characters that exceed 2 jumps. Kirby, Jigglypuff, Pit, MK. etc.. .

 

[Gazebo]

I'm 99.9% sure you need to use an attack to do this. The only exception would be some super wacky timing or button combo that would do it...

Edit: @Magus: Yay lulz. Okay so then that's it? I was thinking, this thread needs to either be remade or edited a lot in the first post. It's not very updated. XP

Really? Remade because it hasnt been updated in eight hours? Standards these days!

In any case, I don't see TOO much that should be updated. All thats really been talked about is characters that can do it and naming things - but honestly, if you'd really like to start your own thread, go for it. I can't take credit for the discovery and you've clearly researched this farther than me.

 

[3xSwords]

so i didnt go through all the posts too many of them lol ^_^. but in the video he only had 1 extra jump, is it possible to keep doing it more than once? Hence INFINITE JUMP? lol. and can this be done with characters that exceed 2 jumps. Kirby, Jigglypuff, Pit, MK. etc.. .

yes for both questions.
In the vids you only see one b/c the timing is so difficult that you really don't expect to get it the first time and when you do you aren't prepared to do it again. Or that's how it is for me.

 

[Intercept]

But mastering it sounds insanely difficult. Just getting it to work the first time takes a few tries, and then you have to repeat it.

This could have been said of wavedashing in melee, but it became a huge part of play.

 

[Makkun]

Really? Remade because it hasnt been updated in eight hours? Standards these days!

In any case, I don't see TOO much that should be updated. All thats really been talked about is characters that can do it and naming things - but honestly, if you'd really like to start your own thread, go for it. I can't take credit for the discovery and you've clearly researched this farther than me.

Sorry I didn't mean to seem offensive or anything. x__x;; That was dumb of me..

But anyway I'm making a list of aerials that can infinitely recover your second jump, so I dunno if I'll make another thread for that or just give the list to you to put in this thread...

But to clarify some things on the first post, you can use your second jump whenever you want, it doesn't have to be near the ground. Also, I'm almost sure the attack has to end as you're touching the ground, or in a certain distance from the ground. (Bowser's distance is very similar to his sideB infinite jump, which is high above the ground) I don't know how deep I can get into acquiring frame data since I really have no way of recording onto a computer or hacking the game or anything.

@Geeky: You can jump infinitely with some moves, like Marth's Fair, which is now called ISJR. Some moves take too long, like Ganon's Fair or Marth's Dair, therefor they can be SJR'd, but not ISJR'd.

And I haven't tested any characters with multiple jumps yet.
Edit: @3xSwords: Do these characters only regain their final jump, or all of them? (save for the first jump)

 

[GeekY]

thanks for the update swords. this will be a big hit eventually (: goodjob on finding out about it.

 

[Ekaru]

Characters with multi jumps can do it. Charizard's uair infinite is this technique. If it works the same for other characters with multi jumps as it does for Charizard, then... daaamn, multi-jump characters will just own. XP I think how it works is it thinks you're on the ground but not, so it resets your double jumps and uses one for this technique. AKA, if MK does it and gets hit while trying to continue it, he'll still have four double jumps...

...daaang.

EDIT: And I think the timing will get really easy when we get used to it. <.<; I love how Yoshi can bair up once, then down as he starts falling, then SJR, than rinse and repeat. I LOVE IT! I also love how he can air dodge on the way up, or even nair, than do another aerial on the way down than SJR. Love it.

 

[Gazebo]

I think it would be a lot clearer if you started a new thread for working moves/characters because the OP is mad cluttered right now. No worries with the seeming offensive thing.

I'm not so sure about the move having to end near the ground because of my experimenting this with tink and his bair - his second jump goes very high, and you spend a bit of time after inputting the bair waiting to land. The first time I got it to work I pulled off two in a row, and I think thats the only move I've managed to pull off two of in the hour- or so that I spent experimenting with this.

The bit about it having to end a bit above the ground seems to be right on, though. I think that's what originally led me to believe that its a frame during which you input the attack. Jumping straight up and jumping sideways heights are different, Id love to see if the attack input height is the same for both. Otherwise, yeah, edited the first post as appropraite.

 

[Makkun]

Characters with multi jumps can do it. Charizard's uair infinite is this technique. If it works the same for other characters with multi jumps as it does for Charizard, then... daaamn, multi-jump characters will just own. XP I think how it works is it thinks you're on the ground but not, so it resets your double jumps and uses one for this technique. AKA, if MK does it and gets hit while trying to continue it, he'll still have four double jumps...

...daaang.

I guess that answers my question then. XDD That's amazing. However that probably gives Metaknight even MORE of an advantage. x_o

 

[Makkun]

I think it would be a lot clearer if you started a new thread for working moves/characters because the OP is mad cluttered right now. No worries with the seeming offensive thing.

I'm not so sure about the move having to end near the ground because of my experimenting this with tink and his bair - his second jump goes very high, and you spend a bit of time after inputting the bair waiting to land. The first time I got it to work I pulled off two in a row, and I think thats the only move I've managed to pull off two of in the hour- or so that I spent experimenting with this.

The bit about it having to end a bit above the ground seems to be right on, though. I think that's what originally led me to believe that its a frame during which you input the attack. Jumping straight up and jumping sideways heights are different, Id love to see if the attack input height is the same for both. Otherwise, yeah, edited the first post as appropraite.

Yeah I tried messing with Toon Link's bair and I think it might just have a later window than most moves, making him an exception so far. I still have a LOT of testing to do. x_o and I haven't gotten much done at all. I would really appreciate it if people could write down characters whose moves they are SURE will ISJR.

 

[Magus420]

If you use 1 midair jump already with a multijump character, so that holding up makes you autojump at the 1st possible chance after something (it still does that in this game right?), can you time your aerial normally like you would to do this, but instead just hold up as you land for their SJR? If it completely resets them 1st I don't really see it working though, since you'd lose that autojump if it restores your jumps before it takes the jump input for it.

 

[Makkun]

If you use 1 midair jump already with a multijump character, so that holding up makes you autojump at the 1st possible chance after something (it still does that in this game right?), can you time your aerial normally like you would to do this, but instead just hold up as you land for their SJR?

I don't think so, you can't hold up or a jump button to make them jump at the first chance anymore. I just tried for the first time. :/

If so, it would work for every character.

Edit: Wow I'm dumb. You can still do it in this game. I'll test the effects of holding a jump button...

Edit2: Yeah this is really annoying since you have to use all of the character's jumps before you can attempt to SJR, making it so you have to really really time your attack. I don't think I'm gonna continue testing this... The jumping part of SJR seems to be buffered really easily in general. The hard part is timing your attack so whatever condition is met on the right frame of your attack.

 

[Magus420]

Why would that have worked for every character too if it did? The multijumpers are the ones that get that automatic multijump after using one midair jump.

But yeah, if it doesn't work I guess it doesn't take the jump input until it has already given you your jumps back, and so they lose the autojump status thing along with it.

 

[Sliq]

Do you have to double jump after falling from a jump, or can you like double jump immediately and do it? I would imagine the ladder would be more useable for Ganon.

 

[kamekasu]

Samurai Panda, have any of the people in the smash back room (I'm referring mostly to the tourny pros) tried LSJing yet? They are supposedly our tactical experts so I'm interested if any of them have any success trying out the LSJ.

Yes, SamuraiPanda made a thread about it last night.

 

[Makkun]

Do you have to double jump after falling from a jump, or can you like double jump immediately and do it? I would imagine the ladder would be more useable for Ganon.

You can immediately second-jump or at any other time.
You can use your second-jump at any time, whether it be immediately after your first jump, at the top of your first jump, or right before you land your first jump. It makes SJR a LOT more useful.

Edit: lol grammar

 

[3xSwords]

@Makkun which jumps are you talking about? With characters w/ muti jumps I'm guessing all except for the first jump is restored. For characters that only jump twice only second jump is restored. I don't know about characters w/ upB's that don't leave them vulnerable after they do it ex Sonic. Would their second jump and upB be restored? Dang that's broken.

Also for this is it just timing when you jump or do you have to time the attack so it ends right before the ground. Or is it both?

 

[Ekaru]

Do you have to double jump after falling from a jump, or can you like double jump immediately and do it? I would imagine the ladder would be more useable for Ganon.

Both if you're talking about the first one. You can even do the first one from a short hop, or from falling from the air, or a ledgehop. Just gotta have the aerial end pretty much near the ground for the first one.

AKA as long as your aerial ends with the character in a position like so:


_
------------------------------------

_ is character, ---- is the ground

It'll work. Timing is slightly different among characters. So you can just double jump immediately, or short hop, or whatever, as long as the aerial ends near the ground. Then for the rest it's out of the double jump the SJR has you do. Hope that clears it up. It gets easier as you do it, of course.

 

[Magus420]

Edit2: Yeah this is really annoying since you have to use all of the character's jumps before you can attempt to SJR, making it so you have to really really time your attack. I don't think I'm gonna continue testing this... The jumping part of SJR seems to be buffered really easily in general. The hard part is timing your attack so whatever condition is met on the right frame of your attack.

Nah, I mean:

1. Jump
2. Use one midair jump
3. BEFORE holding up, do the attack at the timing so you land right for the SJR
4. DURING that attack and before you go to land start holding up so you'd autojump then

But if it is much easier to time the jump compared to timing the attack then I guess it doesn't matter that much anyway

 

[Makkun]

@Makkun which jumps are you talking about? With characters w/ muti jumps I'm guessing all except for the first jump is restored. For characters that only jump twice only second jump is restored. I don't know about characters w/ upB's that don't leave them vulnerable after they do it ex Sonic. Would their second jump and upB be restored? Dang that's broken.

Also for this is it just timing when you jump or do you have to time the attack so it ends right before the ground. Or is it both?

Yeah I know that only second jumps are restored. XD Or multi-jump characters get all their jumps back except the first jump.

The point about UpB is really interesting. o_o I'll have to try it out.

 

[Makkun]

Nah, I mean:

1. Jump
2. Use one midair jump
3. BEFORE holding up, do the attack at the timing so you land right for the SJR
4. DURING that attack and before you go to land start holding up so you'd autojump then

Well you WOULD autojump, but I dunno if your jumps would be restored or not...

It's kinda the same principle if you try to SJR without actually using your second jump before you try it... you will still do your second jump, but that doesn't mean you SJR'd properly.

I'll try autojumping after only using 1 second-jump to see if it is restored.

Edit: Unless I'm timing it wrong, which could be very possible, you don't have your first second-jump restored, the game just registers you as using the second-jumps you haven't used yet. However, I still think you'd get all of your jumps back if you tried SJR'ing after using ALL of your jumps. But the timing is so hard. )X I'll keep trying.

 

[Ekaru]

Well you WOULD autojump, but I dunno if your jumps would be restored or not...

It's kinda the same principle if you try to SJR without actually using your second jump before you try it... you will still do your second jump, but that doesn't mean you SJR'd properly.

I'll try autojumping after only using 1 second-jump to see if it is restored.

Edit: Unless I'm timing it wrong, which could be very possible, you don't have your first second-jump restored, the game just registers you as using the second-jumps you haven't used yet. However, I still think you'd get all of your jumps back if you tried SJR'ing after using ALL of your jumps. But the timing is so hard. )X I'll keep trying.

It resets each time you do a successful SJR. Just that most of the time, you time it wrong, so you use a double jump instead. But when you do a SJR, you get all but the just-used jump back. Here's how the SJR works:

The game thinks you're on the ground by some awkward detection, most likely the buffering system. But the other part of the game knows you aren't. So the ground detection part resets all your jumps, including your multiple air jumps, but the other part uses an air jump, as to why a successful Charizard uair infiniter still has their second air jump, no matter how many times they correctly do a successful uair SJR. So...yeah.

Basically, each correct time, your jumps are reset because half of the game thinks you're on the ground, another half not. The first half is probably the buffer system, the second half is probably the real-time part, as to why you need to at least do an attack for it to work. Maybe you can do it out of an air dodge, but the timing would be hard.

EDIT: AKA the buffer system's fun since it lets us abuse it. :D Best. Buffer. System. EVER.

 

[Makkun]

Okay. Then it works like I thought. O: That's good.

I just wasn't if you could successfully SJR and get your jumps back if you hadn't used them all, since the timing is insanely hard. Every time I tried, I ended up using a multi-jump instead of SJRing.

Edit: Also, while working on the UpB thing, I kinda discovered what might be useful for Snake? I dunno if anyone has found it or not but if you UpB straight from the ground, and do Snake's nair, you can cancel all lag by buffering UpB right when you hit the ground. Maybe spammable? I have no idea. I just thought it looked kinda neat.

 

[-Aether]

A few things to consider.

1. Mastery of this technique requires knowledge of different timing for every aerial attack, and also every character. That is a lot of different timings.

2. It's ridiculous hard; way harder than SWDing (unless I'm not understanding this correctly.)

3. In the majority of cases, you're actually going to be MORE mobile if you land.

I just don't see this being very good with anything except Snake's D-air. Even then, I'm not entirely sure how it removes lag. Doesn't the aerial have to be finished before you can jump? Does anyone else capitulate with my ideas on it's level of usefulness?

 

[Makkun]

A few things to consider.

1. Mastery of this technique requires knowledge of different timing for every aerial attack, and also every character. That is a lot of different timings.

2. It's ridiculous hard; way harder than SWDing (unless I'm not understanding this correctly.)

3. In the majority of cases, you're actually going to be MORE mobile if you land.

I just don't see this being very good with anything except Snake's D-air. Even then, I'm not entirely sure how it removes lag. Doesn't the aerial have to be finished before you can jump? Does anyone else capitulate with my ideas on it's level of usefulness?

I agree, however this is an extremely important discovery that could lead to other things. XP We finally found a way to properly cancel aerial lag... even if it's super hard.

And it's probably useful for a lot of characters. If I'm understanding right, this could make Ganon and Capt. Falcon similar to their Melee selves in a sense of being able to spam their aerials. ISJR'ing Ganon's dair is like a lagless way to Thunder Stomp or whatever that is called.

Edit: I'm not sure if it's possible to SJR after using your UpB.... like for Snake/Sonic :/ I've been trying for 15 minutes and I can't do it.

 

[Ekaru]

Edit: I'm not sure if it's possible to SJR after using your UpB.... like for Snake/Sonic :/ I've been trying for 15 minutes and I can't do it.

Although you can attack after their up+Bs, last time I checked you're in a no-extra-jump state until you reach the ground. In this case, it ignores the # of air jumps left counter and doesn't let you jump at all until you land, even when you have a double jump left, so yeah, it's pretty much impossible.

EDIT: Oh, and Aether: It's not that hard to do once you get it down, people are only going to learn how to do this with the characters they seriously play for now, and that it's useful when you want to get back into the air again and do an aerial or something else again. Which is quite often. Plus you can switch directions during the DJ you do, so... it's often faster than repeated shorthops. =P

 

[Makkun]

Although you can attack after their up+Bs, last time I checked you're in a no-extra-jump state until you reach the ground. In this case, it ignores the # of air jumps left counter and doesn't let you jump at all until you land, even when you have a double jump, so yeah, it's pretty much impossible.

Oh well that's nice to know. XDD Kinda disappointing though, it could've opened up some possibilities for Sonic. XP

 

[Chaotic Yoshi]

This is NOT a new discovery, I told people about this months ago. And it was ignored because i didn't make a new thread and hype it and research it enough. This is my fault though and I'm glad its being investigated.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=fWMyvVaAWZU

http://smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=4104866&postcount=259

 

[Makkun]

This is NOT a new discovery, I told people about this months ago. And it was ignored because i didn't make a new thread and overhype it enough.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=fWMyvVaAWZU

Yeah I'm pretty sure a lot of people knew you could do that with Charizard' uair. But was it known that every aerial could be canceled like that?

 

[Chaotic Yoshi]

Yes I made a post in the techniques discussion thread, hard to find alot of posts. Basically said this can apply to everyone and encourage everyone to find its usefulness with their characters.

Found it:
http://smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=4105081&postcount=648

It's no where near as in depth as this thread. I'm glad its been looked into and receiving attention. Good stuff.

 

[Makkun]

Yes I made a post in the techniques discussion thread, hard to find alot of posts. Basically said this can apply to everyone and encourage everyone to find its usefulness with their characters.

Found it:
http://smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=4105081&postcount=648

Oh I see. O: Well... I dunno really what to say. Sorry that your post didn't catch on I guess. D:

 

[Catmurderer]

Can this be used as an approach by using airdodges instead of attacks? Say someone is camping and just spamming laser... Could you constantly airdodge then SJR (or w/e its called) to get by the lasers with minimal exposure?

 

[Ekaru]

Can this be used as an approach by using airdodges instead of attacks? Say someone is camping and just spamming laser... Could you constantly airdodge then SJR (or w/e its called) to get by the lasers with minimal exposure?

Probably could, since it seems to be the buffering that causes the SJR to occur and not the attack. I'll check.

EDIT: I'll just say that it's easier to powershield (assuming you're offline, since ISJRing is extremely difficult online). Or just ISJR an attack with high priority. >.>

EDIT2: Since there's no air dodge lag. You can also just do a regular short hop, and air dodge when necessary, or air dodge out of an ISJR.