New Marth Tech- Retreating Pivot Grab

[Remzi]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=233277

wow so gay

i apologize in advance if this works :/

 

[BacklashMarth]

BS. I dont see what the plan is to use this technique. Its not like d3 has a throw that will combo into this tech. He slides backwards... and not all that much and hes already kinda safe if he does a normal grab anyway. It may just be me but i fail to see what utility the creator of that thread sees for applying the retreating pivot grab to d3.

 

[Commander_Beef]

Whoever said in that video that King Dedede players will cream in their whatever...the slide won't work for King Dedede. It's logic that since he doesn't get a slide from a glide toss or a smash boost, he won't get it from this new technique. He's too heavy for it, period.

 

[sMexy-Blu]

Actually he does.

He gets even more range from his grab because he is using a pivot grab.

This could even make some characters easier to CG like Luigi.

 

[Bellioes]

OK DemonicTriology, I think Ill just rank them in order instead. It would be a lot easier to compare them. I wanted to be as specific as possible this way (I didnt want to put the slides into general categories) so I think this is the best way.
Give me like a day or two cause Ill be watching APEX today

 

[Bellioes]

Sorry for the double post but heres that list I promised

Slide Lengths for all characters (using the grab method) *NOW COMPLETE*


*NOTEPlease take into account how difficult it is to start the slide at the same place every time when reading this list as you may get slightly different results than me. But know that I did do the slide several times with each character and took the one which showed up the most so my data is pretty accurate at least to me.

LONG

Diddy*
MK *
Marth*

*NOTE I had varied results with these characters; Most likely because of their long slides and how hard it is to keep the timing constant. Anyways, these three characters are in no specific order I couldnt really tell which one went the furthest because of the different results.

Medium

Sheik
Pika
Squirtle
ZSS
Zelda
Yoshi*
Charzard*
Olimar*
TL*
Wolf
Ness
Ganon
Lucario

*NOTE The characters with asterix were noted as having the same length but I remember some slight differences in their lengths when I tested them so I put them in the order as I remember.

Small

Ivysaur
Luigi
ROB
CF
Ike
Link
Wario
Pit
ICs
Fox
Falco
Sonic
Mario
Snake
G&W

No Slide

Peach I could be wrong. It was hard to tell if she slid with her dress flying around
Bowser: He actually moves very slightly but I didnt count it cause its so little.
DK
Samus
Kirby: I actually thought he moved a little but it was so small I couldnt really be sure.
DDD: Like Kirby, I thought I saw him barely move but I might be wrong.
Jigglypuff
Lucas

 

[Remzi]

Good stuff man, but there is a SLIGHT slide for D3 according to the d3 boards.

 

[Chileno4Live]

This looks like a very awesome technique, i'll be trying it out :D

 

[mikeHAZE]

junk, learn to do this and teach me this weekend

thank you

 

[Junk DGH]

haha alright but that new thing i discovered at scsa 5 last weekend with the pivot is more ****

i think my next lesson will be on that

 

[Remzi]

@ Junk: Does it use the same mechanics as this? I'm interested

 

[Remzi]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=213806&page=4

Most likely to discover the next "AT" for marth: BengalsRZ

Good **** freezewish

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

Hey nice find Thanks for the info!

 

[Ashraf23]

Wow Remzi, I didn't expect this topic to be this anticipated lol.

 

[The Sauce Boss]

wow diddy slides FAR.

 

[colddegree]

I cant get this right. so do you tap foward. wait. tap foward. tap back. and. foward grab?

 

[D1]

Which other chars benefit greatly from this?

 

[PK-ow!]

...

but why does the sliding happen? I can see no reason for that to exist. Pivot grabs normally zero momentum.

Unless you're not actually pivot grabbing, and I don't think you are. The inputs you've put are consistent with using either one of the pivot techniques, but not, to my understanding, both.
If you are pivot grabbing, then you are dashing left with the last

input, and therefore, this input is not causing a true pivot.​

 

[Tennet]

when you change directions with the dash, marth (or any other character) slide to slow down to change their direction, giving you the slide

 

[PK-ow!]

when you change directions with the dash, marth (or any other character) slide to slow down to change their direction, giving you the slide

... I'm not following. How does that explain away the momentum-setting of pivot grabs?

 

[Remzi]

No, pivot grabs can always slide.

If you press Grab first, then the opposite direction, he will slide.

If you press direction and then grab, he won't slide.

I believe G&W is one of the characters that does not have a noticeable slide, so you didn't notice. Don't quote me on that though.

 

[GPEternity]

Sorry for the double post but heres that list I promised

Slide Lengths for all characters (using the grab method) *NOW COMPLETE*


*NOTEPlease take into account how difficult it is to start the slide at the same place every time when reading this list as you may get slightly different results than me. But know that I did do the slide several times with each character and took the one which showed up the most so my data is pretty accurate at least to me.

LONG

Diddy*
MK *
Marth*

*NOTE I had varied results with these characters; Most likely because of their long slides and how hard it is to keep the timing constant. Anyways, these three characters are in no specific order I couldnt really tell which one went the furthest because of the different results.

Medium

Sheik
Pika
Squirtle
ZSS
Zelda
Yoshi*
Charzard*
Olimar*
TL*
Wolf
Ness
Ganon
Lucario

*NOTE The characters with asterix were noted as having the same length but I remember some slight differences in their lengths when I tested them so I put them in the order as I remember.

Small

Ivysaur
Luigi
ROB
CF
Ike
Link
Wario
Pit
ICs
Fox
Falco
Sonic
Mario
Snake
G&W

No Slide

Peach I could be wrong. It was hard to tell if she slid with her dress flying around
Bowser: He actually moves very slightly but I didnt count it cause its so little.
DK
Samus
Kirby: I actually thought he moved a little but it was so small I couldnt really be sure.
DDD: Like Kirby, I thought I saw him barely move but I might be wrong.
Jigglypuff
Lucas

did you do this testing with or without the initial dash because i think it can make a difference in some characters.

the reason i say this is because when i was learning how to glide toss, i noticed marth actually has at least 2 different lengths to his forward glide toss. i'm not sure if this is mentioned anywhere already but here they are:

1- The one we're familiar with and this most common. marth slides from the edge of Battlefield to the little circle formation on the side.
2- A MUCH longer glide toss when done immediately out of a foxtrot. the input looks like right->shield->right->cstick right. done correctly the dash + the glide toss carries marth from the edge of battle field to the opposite circle formation, a total distance roughly equivalent to his backward glide toss.

I've always thought that glide tossing out of a the foxtrot somehow carried the momentum of the initial dash into the toss, creating much more distance. That or the foxtrot somehow refined my timing and i managed to tap into some sort of frame perfect super glidetoss.

assuming the former, that means it is possible to maintain momentum from a dash and transfer the momentum into other moves.

also, i don't think this move has too much utility as an approach other than a safe grab attempt. although it is only really safe as long as your opponent reacts the initial dash in a defensive manner. if your opponent responds to the dash by attacking you probably won't even land since you don't initiate the grab until your initial dash finishes and you start the next dash, cancel it, and cancel the cancel with a pivot grab. if you really want to get that grab it would be safer to simply dash grab or dash into a shield grab. this goes for basically all the other characters as well. out of all the grab techniques i would venture that it is safe to say a dashing retreating pivot grab is the slowest.

other than slow and sort of safe grab attempt from a distance, i think the retreating pivot grab is best used by itself as a getaway from boxing situations or as a response to agression. though i've already seen the retreating pivot used by itself in some of the tourny vids.

 

[GreenFox]

I've got this down I can do it about 75% of the time I havent tried it in an actual match but it looks promising I'll see though :D

 

[Remzi]

yea, this becomes infinitely more useful once you can do it on command at any time.

i can do it roughly 95% of the time.

 

[GreenFox]

Yeah I only practiced it for like 10 minutes its alot easier then button imputs on some other games like Killiks ashura dance Just frame on SC IV

 

[PK-ow!]

This can be stripped down to just the Right>Left+Grab input.


Marth, and the characters who have a long slide, are simply exemplifying the traction reducing property that has been put into Brawl which we see when we get a slide out of Mario's ftilt, Peach's dtilt, Ganon's spot dodge, or Link's max-walk speed animation.


It appears to be connected to the character's feet. By individual stipulation of the game director, if a character "takes his weight off" of a foot, then that character will slide if he then subsequently "puts more weight" onto it.


Marth leans off both his feet (somehow), so basically he gets a slide from anything. But only his run and walk have him move, so he only slides from those. He won't slide during anything else either, since hiis other moves are still locked before IASA while his feet are moving, and most of his moves have him plant his feet firmly in some specific position. (I find it is a regularity among lightweights and small characters).


Learning to link a dash dance to this input (or a foxtrot to a dash dance to this input) is of course valuable for the double-bluff approach, but it is not part of what happens.

 

[Crossjeremiah]

you can do the same input retreating pivot grab with the cstick. you can of dacus but instead you use grab.

back-cstick down-(grab)

 

[bmaster77]

i honestly don't think this is a very good AT, if anything I believe that this was created due to lack of new ATs

 

[Remzi]

So, sorry for reviving this thread, but I found the frame data for all of this so I figured I'd post it here.

Frame 0: Input Dash
Frames 1-3: In Initial Dash animation
Frames 4-15: Input Forward Dash (if input on frame 4, you must hold forward during at least 5th frame as well)
Frames 5-15: In Dash animation
Frames 16-21: Cancelable Stand/Beginning of Second Dash, Input Backwards Dash now (THE REST OF THE DATA WILL ASSUME THE BACKWARDS DASH WAS INPUTTED ON FRAME 16)
Frames 17-18: Pivot, input grab on frame 18
Frames 19-20: Backwards Dash Begins (19) + Grab Begins (19). Input direction opposite of which you are currently facing (same direction as initial dash) *No more inputs needed*
Frame 21-27: Pivot Grab animation starts
Frame 28: Grabbox comes out
Frame 55: IASA

 

[Blacknight99923]

good stuff bengalz

 

[∫unk]

Marth's dash that close to an opponent leaves you open for so long though (unless you're dashing in off a punishment/read).

I think this could be useful I'm just having trouble imagining scenarios where this will be a reliable option. It's a technical mixup so I think the reward has to be substantially larger than walking forward and grabbing.