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New Sakurai Interview.

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-Ran

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http://www.1up.com/news/masahiro-sakurai-reflects-super-smash
It's been nine years -- jeez, already? -- since Super Smash Bros. Melee was released for the Nintendo GameCube. The multiplayer fighter wound up becoming the GC's #1 release, with over seven million copies sold worldwide, but as designer Masahiro Sakurai explained in his most recent column for Famitsu magazine, development wasn't exactly fun and games.

"On a personal level, Melee had an extremely grueling development cycle," Sakurai wrote. "Some of my other games did, too, but Melee sticks out far ahead of the pack in my mind. I worked on that game for 13 months straight, after all, without a single Sunday or holiday off that whole time. During parts of it, I was living a really destructive lifestyle -- I'd work for over 40 hours in a row, then go back home to sleep for four."

What drove Sakurai through all that work? "I seriously felt like a man on a mission," he said. "With the original [Nintendo 64] Smash Bros., there was no guarantee the game would be well-received at all -- I had my hands full just trying to make it into the completely new sort of fighting game I had in mind. With Melee, though, the previous game did well enough that Nintendo and the character designers knew what I wanted in advance. And I wanted a lot. It was the biggest project I had ever led up to that point -- the first game of mine on disc-based media, the first that used an orchestra for music, the first with 'real' polygon graphics. My staff was raring to go, and we plunged in full-tilt from the start. I pushed myself beyond any limit I could think of because I doubted I'd ever have this sheer amount of work in my hands ever again."

Looking back, nearly a decade on, Sakurai seems proud of Melee overall. "Melee is the sharpest game in the series," he wrote. "It's pretty speedy all around and asks a lot of your coordination skills. Fans of the first Smash Bros. got into it quickly, and it just felt really good to play."

However, he has one particularly deep regret: the game's accessibility level. "I had created Smash Bros. to be my response to how hardcore-exclusive the fighting game genre had become over the years," Sakurai said. "But why did I target it so squarely toward people well-versed in videogames, then? That's why I tried to aim for more of a happy medium with Brawl's play balance. There are three Smash Bros. games out now, but even if I ever had a chance at another one, I doubt we'll ever see one that's as geared toward hardcore gamers as Melee was. Melee fans who played deep into the game without any problems might have trouble understanding this, but Melee was just too difficult."

Accessibility has always been a watchword in Sakurai's design style, and there's little doubt he learned a lot from the Melee development experience. "If we want new people from this generation of gamers to come in," he concluded, "then we need it accessible, simple, and playable by anyone. You can't let yourself get preoccupied with nothing but gameplay and balance details. That's where the core of the Smash Bros. concept lies, not on doggedly keeping the game the way it was before."
It'll be interesting to see where Smash goes in the future. I hope that he comes to terms that he doesn't need to limit the competitive aspects of the game, since the individual players will be completely competent in doing it themselves. Smash has always had a duality where it can be both a competitive and a party game.
 

i8pie

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I sort of understand now why maybe the gameplay from Melee was toned down. Still, it does sound like that he could be pulling Super Smash Bros in the wrong direction. I just hope he doesn't take it to the level of Wii Sports; you know, fun gameplay for a while but ultimately very shallow.
 

NatP

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So pretty much this confirms that melee WASN'T a fluke on Sakurai's part. Everything did go according to his plan. Melee is the "speedy" one and brawl is the more accessible one.
 

Wenbobular

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But Melee is perfectly accessible to most of the population

The competitive scene is a completely different story obviously, but accessibility only really matters for casuals doesn't it?

>_>
 

NatP

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I also don't think this should be in Brawl General Discussion, it should be on the Melee forums since Sakurai is talking about Melee...
 

Vyse

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It'll be interesting to see where Smash goes in the future. I hope that he comes to terms that he doesn't need to limit the competitive aspects of the game, since the individual players will be completely competent in doing it themselves. Smash has always had a duality where it can be both a competitive and a party game.
Well said. I agree.

This is some really interesting insight.
 

Link40

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The next Smash Bros (if made) will be as disappointing as brawl...
 

link2702

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tl;dr, smash is going straight down the casual only path, do not want.
 

Link40

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tl;dr, smash is going straight down the casual only path, do not want.
Sadly, most of the games on any platforms are following the casual path. Because it makes more money :/
But Wenbobular is right :)
 

Wenbobular

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I went to Gamestop and was astounded by what people were buying as "games" these days.

Meanwhile, Melee still putting in work after 9 years.
They better release a 10th or 20th anniversary edition when our copies eventually get too scratched to use. xD
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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I thought this sentiment about Melee for a while. Melee is harder to get into and play than Brawl is, on both levels of competitive and casual, so I can understand his feelings about this.

At the same time I have to agree with Ran. He can balance it and go further with the competitive aspect than what he did with Brawl without making it hard to get into.
 

Claire Diviner

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So Brawl is more for casual gamers, due to its gameplay mechanics and what-not. Yet, that doesn't seem to stop people from finding ways to make it competitive. I'm willing to bet that when or if the next Smash Bros. is released, people will find a way to make it competitive, regardless of mechanics. I will agree that Melee is more hardcore in terms of competitive play, but Brawl is also a great game in its own right. People can not like Brawl, but they ought to respect it for what it is. The same should be said for any future Smash Bros. games... assuming Nintendo sticks with the basic Smash Bros. formula and doesn't mess with it too much.
 

Flayl

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I'm pretty surprised Melee's speed and technicality was in fact on purpose. Let's just hope the next installment of the Smash series is as moddable (or more) than Brawl.

I don't think I've ever heard a casual player complain that Melee was too hard to play. Too hard to compete in? Sure, but the casual players I knew couldn't care less.
 

Ulevo

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The interview honestly made little sense. Half the reason Brawl is even remotely as popular as it is today is because it rode on the waves of success from the Melee generation. Had Brawl been the first of the series, I have my doubts that it would have had as nearly as consistent of a following. Even the most casual of gamers I know dislike and resent Brawl, and only the hardcore tourney goers still play.

Not to say that casual players weren't loyal, but you don't go and shaft your most loyal player base in favor of everyone else. You want accessibility? Try making it accessible for every type of player.

I also almost feel that within this interview there is a sort of resentment towards Melee as a project because of his trials and hardships he had to work through for its creation, although that may just be my interpretation.
 

Big-Cat

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I thought Melee was fine on a surface level. If he wants it more accessible, he should simplify some of the commands (even though this game already has simplified commands). He could've simplified the following.

1. The timing of the short hop. We had two jump buttons, why not make one the short jump?
2. The precision of the tether grabs. I'm glad this was fixed in Brawl.
3. Remove L-Canceling. Just make the landing lag just a few frames regardless of the condition. The original intent of L-Canceling was to pull the shield up earlier anyway.
4. Wavedash. Probably QCF/QCB + Short Hop
5. Do something about PK Thunder. I remember playing the original SSB and had a hard time pulling this off at first.

Further more, a challenge mode similar to BlazBlue's challenge mode (unlike SF4's, this demonstrates it for you) would probably help new players a lot.
 

Eternal Yoshi

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Nah. I would rather there be no more smash games.

No more man.

Gameplay and balance details are more important to focus on than bringing in new players.

The first 2 smash games were accessible already.

If gameplay and balance details are in line, you will eventually get more players anyway.

If they are not, the game and longevity(which is important for bringing in new players) will suffer.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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The interview honestly made little sense. Half the reason Brawl is even remotely as popular as it is today is because it rode on the waves of success from the Melee generation. Had Brawl been the first of the series, I have my doubts that it would have had as nearly as consistent of a following. Even the most casual of gamers I know dislike and resent Brawl, and only the hardcore tourney goers still play.

Not to say that casual players weren't loyal, but you don't go and shaft your most loyal player base in favor of everyone else. You want accessibility? Try making it accessible for every type of player.

I also almost feel that within this interview there is a sort of resentment towards Melee as a project because of his trials and hardships he had to work through for its creation, although that may just be my interpretation.
This is actually the opposite of my area, people in my area hated Melee because it was harder to play and they didn't enjoy it to a level that they did in Brawl.

I thought Melee was fine on a surface level. If he wants it more accessible, he should simplify some of the commands (even though this game already has simplified commands). He could've simplified the following.

1. The timing of the short hop. We had two jump buttons, why not make one the short jump?
2. The precision of the tether grabs. I'm glad this was fixed in Brawl.
3. Remove L-Canceling. Just make the landing lag just a few frames regardless of the condition. The original intent of L-Canceling was to pull the shield up earlier anyway.
4. Wavedash. Probably QCF/QCB + Short Hop
5. Do something about PK Thunder. I remember playing the original SSB and had a hard time pulling this off at first.

Further more, a challenge mode similar to BlazBlue's challenge mode (unlike SF4's, this demonstrates it for you) would probably help new players a lot.
Hey, stop making smart posts like this one. :joyful:

I can see what Sakurai is saying in the end, he wants a game that can be a happy medium for competitive and casual players, which he doesn't feel like Melee did.

He can improve on this if he makes more smash games with a better balance of both that Melee and Brawl didn't really do.
 

Eternal Yoshi

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However Melee did, and his attitude and quotes in this interview has pretty much told me that when it comes to satisfying both bases, he's doing it wrong, hence why I want the franchise to end before his ignorance of Gameplay and balance details bites the franchise in the butt.
 

Revven

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So... basically anything wrong with Brawl that anyone thinks is a "mistake" is actually something intentional? Awesome, so not only can people who have been hacking the game to death badger him for terrible coding but they can also badger him for doing it intentionally. Sounds great to me!

It really is unfortunate though that he thinks accessibility = being able to win. Casual players I've talked to like Melee a lot more because:

A. It's not as hectic, the item levels actually make sense
B. There aren't any end all be all items like the Smash Ball
C. The feel of the game overall was consistent and made it way more fun. Speed = fun I mean come on!

That's what I've been told by some of my casual friends or casuals in general I've talked to. They also dislike how overpowered the majority of the items are. I've been told it goes like this, "They throw the item and it's so ridiculous that I die/get hit regardless of any action after that the other person performs" depending on the item anyway (obviously I'm talking about things like the Deku Nut). And then as soon as that item is used another one or two pop up because the item frequency in Brawl is ****ed up.

It's like Sakurai was high or drunk when he made Bawrl... if a lot of casuals don't even like it then how is it successful? =\
 

Eternal Yoshi

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Also, nothing says inviting to new players than programming the AI to hate all human players.

A Free for all WILL become a 3 vs 1 if there are 3 CPU's.

This was the hump that broke the camel's back for me until hax.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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Nothing really says what was intentional in Melee, or Brawl for that matter, just that it's harder nature was, not so much specific examples of what he meant by it since he's being pretty vague about it.
 

Big-Cat

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Hey, stop making smart posts like this one. :joyful:
The sad thing is, what I said will probably never be pulled off simply because it's a good idea, and you know how Nintendo is with good ideas.

It's like Sakurai was high or drunk when he made Bawrl... if a lot of casuals don't even like it then how is it successful? =\
My guess:

1. Star power. It's hard to pass up on a massive crossover like Brawl, especially if Sonic and Snake are in it.
2. Riding on Melee's success.
3. Competitive players don't want to quit Smash.
4. The Wii's expanded audience may have pulled in a lot of new players. They probably didn't play the previous titles.

I just remembered how one of my roommates mentioned to me that he didn't like Brawl because it was so slow. Likewise, another friend of mine thought it was too slow and defensive.
 

*P*L*U*R*

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3. Remove L-Canceling. Just make the landing lag just a few frames regardless of the condition. The original intent of L-Canceling was to pull the shield up earlier anyway.
Posting to say that auto-L-Cancelling is a terrible idea.

It makes characters with strong shield pressuring even harder to compete with. At least adjusting your shield against Fox/Falco could make them adjust their timing accordingly so there is a chance of them messing up.

With auto-l-cancelling, it makes out of shield options less viable.
 

Big-Cat

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Posting to say that auto-L-Cancelling is a terrible idea.

It makes characters with strong shield pressuring even harder to compete with. At least adjusting your shield against Fox/Falco could make them adjust their timing accordingly so there is a chance of them messing up.

With auto-l-cancelling, it makes out of shield options less viable.
You do realize that you're saying that under the assumption that characters are not adjusted for that change, right?
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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The sad thing is, what I said will probably never be pulled off simply because it's a good idea, and you know how Nintendo is with good ideas.
Depends, but yeah I really don't have many or any problems with that idea you posted. =D

For the people like Melee over Brawl, it depends. I tried introducing it to some casual gamers around my college or even back at my home town and people pretty much rejected it over Brawl, generally of course I have met a few that wanted to play melee.

Dunno, guess it depends on the people we're talking to or audience.
 

The_Altrox

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It's like Sakurai was high or drunk when he made Bawrl... if a lot of casuals don't even like it then how is it successful? =\
Because a lot of people do like it, and even if it got a boost from the first two games, in it's own right, it is a very good game, sans a few errors
 

Revven

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Because a lot of people do like it, and even if it got a boost from the first two games, in it's own right, it is a very good game, sans a few errors
As a game is it good? Sure, I'll give it that. But as a sequel to the past two games it fails to deliver in many areas and this is not just limited to a competitive level, it's also in the casual part. So it's not a "very good" Smash Bros game.
 

TurnOneWrath

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Sadly, most of the games on any platforms are following the casual path. Because it makes more money
While this is true (especially in light of many games on the Wii, and all the Lego games that I hate), the "inaccessable" aspects that were rampant in Melee could have been left alone and the game would have sold just as much, I think.

No matter how technical a game can get, you will still have the vast majority of people to buy the game for many other reasons other than L-cancelling and dash dancing. 95% of the people that bought Melee over the past nine years and enjoy the game very much still don't have the slightest idea as to what that is, nor do they care to, because none of their friends are doing it and they enjoy mindlessly mashing buttons until a character falls dead.

A lot more people play the game because they know the characters that are fighting from other games, and find it enjoyable to see them walking around fighting as giants.

I feel like the interview skipped over that part, and it is a little disheartening. People play this game for different reasons. It can't be ignored that 99% of this games revenue came from people that will never fathom that hit stun is different, or even that the last iteration of the game was "difficult".

Too many people are completely blind to the details that a competitive environment pays attention to for how difficult the technical aspects of the game are to matter.

I've played Melee for well over 5 years now, and from the time I first got it, I never saw it as "difficult", and I am by no means a long term competitive gamer. At first I would look at some of the things the AI would do and think, "that looks like it would be hard to pull off on the fly," but never thought that it would make the game inaccessible to someone that wanted to just kill a Yoshi or what have you.

As deep and technical as the game was on the inside, it remained true that anyone can pick it up without caring about or even noticing the deeper aspects of it.

It's cartoons fighting on a race track for Christsake, anybody with a pulse is gonna pick it up and enjoy it for a couple hours no matter how hard the game actually is.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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Both games are better than Smash 64, imo.

The the other two against each other, I could understand either choice. In the end I don't think it matters let people play what and like what they want as long as they aren't hurting anyone doing what they like.
 

Eternal Yoshi

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As a game is it good? Sure, I'll give it that. But as a sequel to the past two games it fails to deliver in many areas and this is not just limited to a competitive level, it's also in the casual part. So it's not a "very good" Smash Bros game.
I couldn't have posted this it better myself.

BTW, I prefer Smash 64 over Brawl.

I DO know that it could get a LOT worse though, which is why it should end here.
 

Dark Sonic

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Both games are better than Smash 64, imo.

The the other two against each other, I could understand either choice. In the end I don't think it matters let people play what and like what they want as long as they aren't hurting anyone doing what they like.
I'd prefer the developer didn't specifically set out to make the game easier for the COMPETITIVE audience though. It's perfectly fine to make a game accessible, but why can't it have depth too? (not saying brawl has no depth, rather that there's no reason to try to sabotage it)
 

Wenbobular

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God, this is turning into that "does Brawl's lack of combos hurt gameplay" thread haha

Funny how these things work out <_<

Also I like Smash64 because you can move in it. I feel like I can't move in Brawl.

...<_<
I like how anything vaguely about Brawl's depth gets turned into Brawl vs Melee >_<
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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I'd prefer the developer didn't specifically set out to make the game easier for the COMPETITIVE audience though. It's perfectly fine to make a game accessible, but why can't it have depth too? (not saying brawl has no depth, rather that there's no reason to try to sabotage it)
It ultimately became easier because he didn't like how Melee turned out for the casual in his opinion.

There are things I understand if he targeted and removed, Wavedashing and L canceling for example, other things not so much.

Other things I am happy he did change, others not so much.

God, this is turning into that "does Brawl's lack of combos hurt gameplay" thread haha

Funny how these things work out <_<

Also I like Smash64 because you can move in it. I feel like I can't move in Brawl.

...<_<
I like how anything vaguely about Brawl's depth gets turned into Brawl vs Melee >_<
I'm honestly surprised most of the threads were left open, we do have a rule that doesn't allow Melee vs Brawl discussion. I'm guessing because people are being more civil this time around compared to the old threads.

It's that and people don't want to just drop the topic altogether, I really wish people would.
 
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Melee isn't hard to get into on a casual level.

If it was it wouldn't have sold millions of units for the GC.

Casuals don't care very much about their skill and development more so than them simply playing the game with their friends. They don't care about suicides or difficulty or advanced techniques.

They don't have the experience, taste, and knowledge to make good judgments about the game at that point.

A game can have a high skill ceiling and be playable on the lowest level. Why would anybody play sports if they knew they would never become as good or talented as Albert Pujols or Lebron James?
 

UberMario

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B. There aren't any end all be all items like the Smash Ball
The Smash Ball was intended for SSB64 AND Melee, in fact, SSBB Falcon's "Come On" is identical to one discovered in Melee's sound data. :/



And I'm very surprised to find out that Melee took just barely over a year to make (the implication that he likes Melee the most wasn't probably that surprising, it took a lot for Nintendo to convince him to make Brawl.), and that he found accessibility to be such an issue.


He could've simplified the following.

1. The timing of the short hop. We had two jump buttons, why not make one the short jump?
I'm surprised this wasn't done already, especially since there's the third option of the control stick.

2. The precision of the tether grabs. I'm glad this was fixed in Brawl.
It'd be nicer if you could latch on to walls too like the grapples, but I do have to say it is more usable [in terms of ease] in Brawl than in Melee.

3. Remove L-Canceling. Just make the landing lag just a few frames regardless of the condition. The original intent of L-Canceling was to pull the shield up earlier anyway.
I don't think it should be quite that simple, I think it should work like Brawl's (most likely an oversight) landing lag cancel, which involves using an attack as you land, but in reverse, with the landing lag being "cancelled" by immediately initiating a ground attack upon landing.

4. Wavedash. Probably QCF/QCB + Short Hop
TBH Wavedashing wasn't that hard to do anyway, all you have to do is short hop and air dodge diagonally downwards. I didn't think it was coming back in Brawl anyway, and I'm surprsied "Dash-dancing" did. (Even if it was somewhat nerfed by tripping, it's still there)

5. Do something about PK Thunder. I remember playing the original SSB and had a hard time pulling this off at first.
What could they really have done with it? I can't imagine guiding it any other way without completely changing it's attributes, though they could make it so that when you initiate PK Thunder, you can press a direction + B again to have the PKT be set on "auto-pilot" and hit you in the direction you press, that way it wouldn't interfere for people that prefer doing it "manually".

Further more, a challenge mode similar to BlazBlue's challenge mode (unlike SF4's, this demonstrates it for you) would probably help new players a lot.
I wouldn't be surprised if this did happen in the future.
 
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