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No sympathy: Ike Video thread

Frenzy

Smash Apprentice
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Does anybody have a video of a player using wave dashes as Ike and winning a competitive match? I just watched a fight between M2K and Ally, and neither of them used wave dash in their matches . . .

I just need some inspiration to keep practicing wave dashing because it doesn't seem useful to me yet.
 
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Commander

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Does anybody have a video of a player using wave dashes as Ike and winning a competitive match? I just watched a fight between M2K and Ally, and neither of them used wave dash in their matches . . .

I just need some inspiration to keep practicing wave dashing because it doesn't seem useful to me yet.
It isn't useful for Ike. I think I have only ever wavedashed as Ike once and it was to avoid a sword swing from Link and that was it.
 

King of Hoboz

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You should learn wavedashing still.

Ally is a very un-technical player compared to what else you could find in the scene of Melee players.

Here's three very clear useful applications of knowing how to wavedash properly.

Mix-Up out of Quickdraw. Being able to Quickdraw, then cancel with a wavedash is very useful when you need to scope your opponent's habits/current mental state. Using it will let you catch a player trying to spot dodge your Grab/Attack attempt and let you adjust accordingly.

Second, Wavelanding on platforms. I swear to it that Ike has some great mobility for what kind of character he is and you need to be able to waveland on a platform to get full mobility. Sometimes you can't exactly deal with whatever's in front of you, so running as fast as you can onto a platform and off is a really strong option.

Lastly, wavedash OoS. I love this option to death, so much. It lets me go from my shield back into full mobility, which is really important in a match-up where you'd be forced into your shield frequently.

I don't know about you all, but I wavedash -all the time- with Ike. Maybe not integrated into my Dash Dancing or such (as much, but I do it some), but it has very important utility to keep yourself grounded when you need to be grounded.
 

SparkingZero

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You should learn wavedashing still.

Ally is a very un-technical player compared to what else you could find in the scene of Melee players.

Here's three very clear useful applications of knowing how to wavedash properly.

Mix-Up out of Quickdraw. Being able to Quickdraw, then cancel with a wavedash is very useful when you need to scope your opponent's habits/current mental state. Using it will let you catch a player trying to spot dodge your Grab/Attack attempt and let you adjust accordingly.

Second, Wavelanding on platforms. I swear to it that Ike has some great mobility for what kind of character he is and you need to be able to waveland on a platform to get full mobility. Sometimes you can't exactly deal with whatever's in front of you, so running as fast as you can onto a platform and off is a really strong option.

Lastly, wavedash OoS. I love this option to death, so much. It lets me go from my shield back into full mobility, which is really important in a match-up where you'd be forced into your shield frequently.

I don't know about you all, but I wavedash -all the time- with Ike. Maybe not integrated into my Dash Dancing or such (as much, but I do it some), but it has very important utility to keep yourself grounded when you need to be grounded.
I'm not too sure on what you mean on the Wavedash OoS option I hear thats really good all the time, and I have yet to fully understand. As in how safe is it? I would like to see an example of this option being effectively used . It's not that i'm doubting it, it's just I never use it myself and would like to, just never know for sure when.
 

King of Hoboz

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If the match-up has a projectile coming at you, being about to Wavedash OoS is really helpful. I play a really high-mobility Ike who just likes to dash around and avoid things until I get an opening, so for me, it's really helpful.

What makes Wavedash OoS 'safe' is the fact you build distance between you and your opponent, honestly. If they're right on your shield, you're better off rolling or grabbing, but if they're trying to space you out with a tilt or hit your shield with a projectile and you need to get back into the neutral, its the best option I think.
 

SparkingZero

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If the match-up has a projectile coming at you, being about to Wavedash OoS is really helpful. I play a really high-mobility Ike who just likes to dash around and avoid things until I get an opening, so for me, it's really helpful.

What makes Wavedash OoS 'safe' is the fact you build distance between you and your opponent, honestly. If they're right on your shield, you're better off rolling or grabbing, but if they're trying to space you out with a tilt or hit your shield with a projectile and you need to get back into the neutral, its the best option I think.
Alright sounds cool. I will work on my Ike's mobility then, thank you
 

Frenzy

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Is it bad to be an un-technical player? I mean, I only plan to play PM and eventually Smash 4 competitively. I don't really like Melee anymore.

But I agree on using the wave dash to get in close when someone is spamming projectiles. I can manage that. I just see some characters fly across the board with wave dash and think, "Is Ike able to even do that?"
 
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King of Hoboz

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Actually, I tend to Wavedash backwards against Projectiles. Going forward with a OoS Wavedash can get you hit by accident due to spacing and such. Just to rebuild the space so I can properly approach against the projectile user.

And no, not necessarily. Ally got top 8 at Apex with a rather bare-bones style of play with good reads. I would say if you wanted to be a top Ike player, you want to be technical somewhat- but Ike's tech wall isn't anything extreme like other characters around here. Wavedashing is common place for the entire cast, and after that JC and L-Cancels are most of what you need to know.
 
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Chesstiger2612

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Being technical only has advantages, so... As for Ike, he has some technical challenges but I think there are more important factors.
For example not getting pressured. While Ike has many problems with close pressure, good Ike players manage to barely get into those situations.
 

SparkingZero

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Being technical only has advantages, so... As for Ike, he has some technical challenges but I think there are more important factors.
For example not getting pressured. While Ike has many problems with close pressure, good Ike players manage to barely get into those situations.
Yes I can see that. And we avoid getting pressured by spacing , correct ?
 

Chesstiger2612

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First spacing, also zoning of course and a few undpredictable side-b tricks. Jab helps in a few situations too, as do wavedashs backwards. You don't want to be shielding too often and if you are, quickly WD out.
Playing a bit prophylactic in that aspect is necessary.
 

SparkingZero

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First spacing, also zoning of course and a few undpredictable side-b tricks. Jab helps in a few situations too, as do wavedashs backwards. You don't want to be shielding too often and if you are, quickly WD out.
Playing a bit prophylactic in that aspect is necessary.
Yeah I believe I do all of that already, what is Zoning exactly?
 

Chesstiger2612

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Zoning is related to stage position. If you keep centerstage and don't allow them to pressure you as well because it is very risky now, you have the zoning advantage. It is very important for Ike because he needs room for all side-b setups and you die a lot faster when closer to the blast zones, too.
 

King of Hoboz

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This. ^

Also, wanna confirm this with someone, does Ike's side-b have a smaller hurtbox or something, because I've seen him low-profile Falco lasers, dash through peanuts, or just avoid an attack using it. I've actually built a really funny habit of when I'm waiting for an opening, if I feel my opponent's not willing to smack me immediately, I'll just QD through them and just empty jump behind them and steal their space.
 

Commander

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This. ^

Also, wanna confirm this with someone, does Ike's side-b have a smaller hurtbox or something, because I've seen him low-profile Falco lasers, dash through peanuts, or just avoid an attack using it. I've actually built a really funny habit of when I'm waiting for an opening, if I feel my opponent's not willing to smack me immediately, I'll just QD through them and just empty jump behind them and steal their space.
Ike is crouching during QD, thus his hurtboxes are lower and more condensed.
 

Y-L

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NWRL and I played some NetPlay Ike dittos earlier so here are some of our matches. Please feel free to leave criticism and leave feedback. Keep in mind these were friendlies so there were a lot of sd's/yolos. @ metroid1117 metroid1117 it'd be cool to get your input too.

 
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PyroTakun

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NNID
Ta-kun
I tried to be fancy and updated the first post so it didn't look like garbage, but somehow it's all messed up O.o

Still better than before though.
 

metroid1117

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NWRL and I played some NetPlay Ike dittos earlier so here are some of our matches. Please feel free to leave criticism and leave feedback. Keep in mind these were friendlies so there were a lot of sd's/yolos. @ metroid1117 metroid1117 it'd be cool to get your input too.

Sorry, I've been busy this week and I'm going to Evo tomorrow so I'm not sure when I'll be able to take a look at these matches.
 

King of Hoboz

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Yeah, all I could say is you just need to know when to back off/get out of there and less getting caught in your shield. You did extreme well otherwise.

There were quite a few moments I thought when you were jabbing him and he crotch cancelled that you would have been better off just trying to dash away and build space and just try to zone him. Your percents were too high to go for jabs.
 

Y-L

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Vs. McBad
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HP1ZyDOhSxw&list=FLL73OtAbnMSkCUMmhl5qVPg&index=2

Vs. McBad
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HP1ZyDOhSxw

I watch these all the time ha, and I pretty much probably see all my mistakes but i'm always open for advice.
Some things I noticed were you never used dthrow to bair or ftilt at low percents which is pretty much guaranteed if they don't di correctly (behind you and down) which he didn't. Those are almost always a better option than nair. I also would have liked to see more qd grabs or qd wd. Particularly in the second match I noticed you were kind of standing still a lot so utilizing more qd mixups would have made him less comfortable throwing out pk fires. One last thing is about your recovery you should try to recover low more and go for sweet spot so you aren't so vulnerable. Overall you did really well though, nice job!
 
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SparkingZero

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Some things I noticed were you never used dthrow to bair or ftilt at low percents which is pretty much guaranteed if they don't di correctly (behind you and down) which he didn't. Those are almost always a better option than nair. I also would have liked to see more qd grabs or qd wd. Particularly in the second match I noticed you were kind of standing still a lot so utilizing more qd mixups would have made him less comfortable throwing out pk fires. One last thing is about your recovery you should try to recover low more and go for sweet spot so you aren't so vulnerable. Overall you did really well though, nice job!
I'm aware of the dthrow to ftilt but Mcbad had seen it so many times it goes into simple mind games. If he DIs away then i can chain grab him, if not I get a free arial. Thanks .
@ King of Hoboz King of Hoboz I realized that too while reviewing my match. Thank you
 

Y-L

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http://www.twitch.tv/play_for_keeps/b/549214012?t=3h10m2s (If timestamp doesn't work it's 3 hours 10 minutes)

Hi guys, please critique my Ike. This was my second tournament ever, which was last weekend. I had two sets in a row on stream, one against a toon link who I lost to, and then another against a mario which I won. Thanks!
I watched the first game and what I noticed right away is that you were missing a lot of techs allowing you to get comboed by projectiles as well as that you gave him way too much space. Instead of running in you were staying far away allowing him to set up and feel safe and when you did go in you didn't space so he got grabs/OoS options on you. Missed some L cancels all around but yeah that's what you should work on.
 

WhinoTheRhino

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How about in the second set against the mario? It's easier to see a player's skill if you view them against players stronger as well as weaker than them.
 

Y-L

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No one watched my video ;__;
I watched your video and overall you did really well so there's not much to critique. I would say I probably wouldn't have relied on dthrow as much as you did (and if I did I wouldn't have gone for the chain grab because it's not a real one [he fixes his di after the first throw]) so maybe opt for ftilt or bair instead if you're going to dthrow. Charizard is a tall character which means it's pretty easy to bair him even if he's on the ground so some more fthrow qd rar bairs would have been nice. Not sure if I agree with all the smash attack edgeguards unless he was up b recovering, ftilt would be a lot safer. You probably could have gotten some dsmashes and more jab jab grabs too. Game 3 it seemed like you started to choke as I noticed you started rolling a bunch. Use wd oos more.
First game you bopped him you definitely played really well.
 

RomanCenturionX

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No one watched my video ;__;
I watched your video, I just had nothing to say about the first two matches because you played really well. Some of the stuff I noticed Y-L already hit on so I won't bother repeating what he said.

The only other issue I had was allowing for a Zard to take you to fountain game 2. Zard can kill vertically and horizontally about as well as Ike can, perhaps even more so not banning stages with close blast zones was questionable to me. I don't know what stages were allowed during your tournament but I would have perfered to take him to dreamland, dracula's, or distant planet while banning Yoshi's, GHZ/WW (Depending on how open you want the stage to be), and fountain. That way they have to choose between Lylat (Which has a deceptively low ceiling but pretty good horizontal blast zones), PS2 (Very good for QD shenanigans IMO), FD, battlefield again (not likely to be chosen after he got bopped there), dreamland, Dracs, DP, Skyworld (his likely choice, for some reason Zards I play love this stage), and GHZ or WW. Just my two cents, ultimately it just comes down to preference.

Good Work!
 

metroid1117

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These videos are a little old by now, but I figured it'd be better to post them late than never.

EVO Day 1 (19 entrants)
vs Jaime (Bowser/Falcon) GF1 and GF2 (all but GF2 game 2)
vs K9 (MK) LF
vs Chibo (Samus) WR? (this match-up is harder than I thought)


EVO Day 2 (61 entrants)
vs Chu Dat (Kirby) LS (just game 1)
vs K9 (MK) LQ (I was so sad when he didn't die at 3:45...)

http://youtu.be/HcwmTrtAsqQ

Here's one video out of like 5 for a recent bracket. Please rip my Ike apart
LOL your tag is awesome.

As someone who double-mains both characters, the key to this match-up from the Ike side is to keep pressuring Charizard - you didn't give him much space in game 1, but it seemed like you gave him more room to work with in games 2 and 3. Both characters are bad at dealing with pressure; although Charizard has an up+B OoS that's invincible from frames 1-4 and hits on frame 4 (similar to Whirling Fortress), it's easily punished at low %s and it leaves him pretty vulnerable if he doesn't use it under a high platform. Charizard doesn't have any burst movement options like Ike does, so most of his options in neutral consist of RAR NAir (which can be out-spaced using QD, like you did at times) or walling with jab/FTilt. These tools become less effective once you get in Charizard's face though, since Ike's jab is faster than Charizard's and Charizard's size makes it difficult for him to evade attacks. Charizard also has relatively poor air mobility, so he'll often use NAir to come down; it's not too hard for Ike to beat out since he moves quickly in the air from a dash and FAir/NAir/BAir can clip Charizard as he lands. Again, it seemed like you were giving Charizard too much freedom to move around and NAir in games 2 and 3, whereas he didn't have the chance to do that in game 1.

In addition, IMO you should use more BThrow/FThrow in your punish game and less DThrow, especially at low %s. DThrow at low %s usually only leads into a tech chase if they DI properly, whereas BThrow and FThrow have higher release points and set up really well for QD attack or QD regrab. Even though it's not that hard to always DI in the correct direction against Ike's throws, it's best to mix-up between the two throws to avoid throwing the opponent off the stage prematurely. At mid %s, you can then start using DThrow since you can sometimes QD regrab before they hit the ground. However, I'd still recommend using BThrow/FThrow to end combos over DThrow because it's not too hard to get QD -> RAR BAir on Charizard due to his floatiness and size. It's only friendlies so I was trying out stuff, but I have some matches against Mera, a Charizard main from WI, that show some of what I described.

As for FoD, I personally like that stage a lot. The platforms are really low to the ground (both the full height and half height), allowing you to set up for some really nasty (and sometimes inescapable) DACUS traps at low/mid %s with NAir, BThrow, FThrow, or DThrow - 7:14 is a good example of where a DACUS would've probably worked. If your opponent likes to DI down and away from Ike's throws to avoid getting hit with QD -> RAR BAir, you can also opt to set up DACUS traps on the side platforms at high %s as well.
 
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King of Hoboz

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I've seen all those matches already.
You actually found Samus hard? That's surprising, I've never found it too awful of a match-up, especially when compared to other enemy projectile users.

If I have any general advice on Samus, its that dealing with Floaty-Heavies in the combo game is different from the rest of the cast. (ROB and Samus mostly, I'd even include Mewtwo/Peach on this list since I treat them similarly) A big thing I notice when playing against them is that they have the easiest time retaliating against us if we try to go for combo finishers, so I focus primarily on safer/spacing oriented combos/juggles, aka, Nair - a lot. D-Throw is also a really useful tool at higher percents since floaties can just outright get combo'd from it. D-Throw > QD > Nair/Stuff is an easy combo on these guys at mid-percents, even against good DI.

Killing Samus or Heavy Floaties is really about just hitting them with a kill move, I almost never combo into death against these line of characters and its rather obnoxious if your opponent spends their entire time just trying to avoid Fair.

Neutral Game wise, I feel you want to either be right on top of Samus or just outside of Tilts trying to Nair/Fair. Missiles aren't too problematic since they aren't too fast and a Nair easily dispatches them. Ike's air play gets around Samus I feel like. Her limbs are the worst part of the match-up, so focus on avoiding them and less on the missiles.

Note: None of this is directed at your video exactly, just my general thoughts on the Match-Up. ^
As to what you did wrong, I just recommend more Nair and seeing if anything I said applies. *shrugs*
 
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metroid1117

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Thanks for the tips, I think part of it was general match-up unfamiliarity (Chibo played Samus in Brawl and is really good at walling) and the other was sloppy play. No johns though, just gotta get better!
 

CT Chia

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Thanks for the tips, I think part of it was general match-up unfamiliarity (Chibo played Samus in Brawl and is really good at walling) and the other was sloppy play. No johns though, just gotta get better!
Nope, I was a Samus player in Melee. ROB in Brawl :)
 

metroid1117

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Link is a rough match-up because of his projectiles (as you already know), but it's manageable. To get around projectiles, I prefer taking to the air instead of waveshielding because (1) Ike's jumpsquat and wavedash aren't particularly fast and (2) Ike maintains a lot of momentum if you jump from the ground, which allows you to position yourself such that only angled-up boomerangs can get you. However, Ike has a hard time getting down unless you either carefully space your double-jump to avoid the angled-up boomerang or if you land on a platform, so both approaches have their pros and cons. At low %s though, it's difficult to safely approach Link with anything but a tipped FAir, since projectiles make it difficult to get in for grabs and he can CC anything else (including QD attack); this is part of the reason why I prefer staying in the air when fighting Link.

As for your punish game, I've had more success using UThrow at low %s than DThrow; with proper DI, it's difficult to follow up on anyone who's not a floaty, whereas UThrow can net you some BAirs or UAirs, depending on their DI. UThrow also puts them above you, which allows them to use aerials (NAir and DAir are the most dangerous here) but they cannot safely use projectiles, so it's easier to keep putting pressure on them. At mid %s, you can combo FThrow/BThrow into QD -> RAR BAir if they DI improperly or set up for a tech chase; DThrow might work at this % as well, but it probably won't combo with proper DI since Link isn't a floaty. His heavy-but-not-floaty weight is kinda awkward to combo with throws, so you usually have to play it by ear and attempt to catch him off-guard.
 

SparkingZero

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Link is a rough match-up because of his projectiles (as you already know), but it's manageable. To get around projectiles, I prefer taking to the air instead of waveshielding because (1) Ike's jumpsquat and wavedash aren't particularly fast and (2) Ike maintains a lot of momentum if you jump from the ground, which allows you to position yourself such that only angled-up boomerangs can get you. However, Ike has a hard time getting down unless you either carefully space your double-jump to avoid the angled-up boomerang or if you land on a platform, so both approaches have their pros and cons. At low %s though, it's difficult to safely approach Link with anything but a tipped FAir, since projectiles make it difficult to get in for grabs and he can CC anything else (including QD attack); this is part of the reason why I prefer staying in the air when fighting Link.

As for your punish game, I've had more success using UThrow at low %s than DThrow; with proper DI, it's difficult to follow up on anyone who's not a floaty, whereas UThrow can net you some BAirs or UAirs, depending on their DI. UThrow also puts them above you, which allows them to use aerials (NAir and DAir are the most dangerous here) but they cannot safely use projectiles, so it's easier to keep putting pressure on them. At mid %s, you can combo FThrow/BThrow into QD -> RAR BAir if they DI improperly or set up for a tech chase; DThrow might work at this % as well, but it probably won't combo with proper DI since Link isn't a floaty. His heavy-but-not-floaty weight is kinda awkward to combo with throws, so you usually have to play it by ear and attempt to catch him off-guard.
Thanks man at times I would become flustered and just charge at him and you saw the punishment for that. As far as edge guarding link, I feel like spacing Fairs (including fall off ledge Fairing) is if not the best, then one of the best options. I'm going for best Ike in Texas lol, and I'm definitely one of the top. So the info is appreciated dude.
 

metroid1117

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Thanks man at times I would become flustered and just charge at him and you saw the punishment for that. As far as edge guarding link, I feel like spacing Fairs (including fall off ledge Fairing) is if not the best, then one of the best options. I'm going for best Ike in Texas lol, and I'm definitely one of the top. So the info is appreciated dude.
FAir works well against ZAir right when he extends for the edge, but DAir is better for catching him as he swings. If they go for an early up+B and you're on the stage, Counter works surprisingly well.

Good luck being the best Ike in Texas, you're lucky that you live in such a strong region with great people :).
 
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SparkingZero

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FAir works well against ZAir right when he extends for the edge, but DAir is better for catching him as he swings. If they go for an early up+B and you're on the stage, Counter works surprisingly well.

Good luck being the best Ike in Texas, you're lucky that you live in such a strong region with great people :).
Thank you! Means a lot.

And do you mean SH off and Dairing or fall off Dair?
 
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