Official BBR Matchup Chart v1.0

[Kewkky]

So uh, is there any particular reason that Pokémon Trainer's matchups aren't split up?

Well, all 3 pokemon are part of PT and they can't be played by themselves, so we didn't consider them as separate characters. Some of us did the separate matchups anyway just in case they might be added, but the general consensus decided that PT should count all 3 characters under one single MU, which would be optimal usage of all 3 pokemon.

It's not a bad idea to do the MUs for each different pokemon, since they all have different traits, moves, weaknesses and the such. A newcomer PT who would be looking at who to use for a +1 MU might not immediately know that Charizard is the key to that MU and changing to Squitrle makes it harder for you, or something along those lines. For reasons such as that one, having split MUs wouldn't be a bad idea. But like I said, it depends on the general consensus, and the PT panel decided that they wanted to count him as one character with only one overall MU spread.

 

[MK26]

sorry if im a bit late on this but

LOL.

Dude, I have an ego the size of Mars...etc.

chuckl'd

Oh really?????

****ing lost

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Well, all 3 pokemon are part of PT and they can't be played by themselves, so we didn't consider them as separate characters. Some of us did the separate matchups anyway just in case they might be added, but the general consensus decided that PT should count all 3 characters under one single MU, which would be optimal usage of all 3 pokemon.

It's not a bad idea to do the MUs for each different pokemon, since they all have different traits, moves, weaknesses and the such. A newcomer PT who would be looking at who to use for a +1 MU might not immediately know that Charizard is the key to that MU and changing to Squitrle makes it harder for you, or something along those lines. For reasons such as that one, having split MUs wouldn't be a bad idea. But like I said, it depends on the general consensus, and the PT panel decided that they wanted to count him as one character with only one overall MU spread.

Actually, I'm pretty sure we were just told to do it that way.

 

[Toomai]

Well, all 3 pokemon are part of PT and they can't be played by themselves, so we didn't consider them as separate characters. Some of us did the separate matchups anyway just in case they might be added, but the general consensus decided that PT should count all 3 characters under one single MU, which would be optimal usage of all 3 pokemon.

It's not a bad idea to do the MUs for each different pokemon, since they all have different traits, moves, weaknesses and the such. A newcomer PT who would be looking at who to use for a +1 MU might not immediately know that Charizard is the key to that MU and changing to Squitrle makes it harder for you, or something along those lines. For reasons such as that one, having split MUs wouldn't be a bad idea. But like I said, it depends on the general consensus, and the PT panel decided that they wanted to count him as one character with only one overall MU spread.

A single number for optimal usage does make sense, but then you get into what "optimal usage" is. Is it using each Pokémon equally (therefore the average of the matchups), or trying to overuse the stronger and stay away from the weaker (therefore a weighted average)? Displaying both the combined numbers and the individual numbers would help players figure this out themselves, with little extra work.

Still, it was the experts' decision, so they probably know what they're doing. I just hope that they change it for a future version.

 

[Chuee]

Why do people always say CPs change the ratio?
If the character can get an even MU 2 out of 3 games how is that not even?
Take ICs vs G&W for example. ICs **** G&W on just about every neutral. However the MU drastically changes on Brinstar/RC. Yet that MU is still terrible for G&W.

 

[Deleted member]

Why do people always say CPs change the ratio?
If the character can get an even MU 2 out of 3 games how is that not even?

How is it even when the character dominates on the CP? It throws off that balance.

Edit: If Fox supposedly does go even with MK on neutrals(I don't think he does imo) and MK can tip the MU to a medium advantage on a guaranteed CP in his favor, it can't be 50:50.

In turn, this applies to every character in the game vs. MK, which is why it's wrong to say another character goes even with him.

 

[Alphicans]

Why do people always say CPs change the ratio?
If the character can get an even MU 2 out of 3 games how is that not even?
Take ICs vs G&W for example. ICs **** G&W on just about every neutral. However the MU drastically changes on Brinstar/RC. Yet that MU is still terrible for G&W.

Really?

Look at it this way. If a character has a **** CP, and then the other 2 games will be even, the character who doesn't have a **** CP is basically forced to win game 1, or they auto lose the set. That is why good CPs change the ratio. The reason this doesn't hold true to GaW is because IC's **** on both starter stage and their CP. GaW's win is basically a waste of time :/.

 

[NeoBatou]

Never unless I'm not playing the match-up right.

Still, Ganondorf getting a free dash attack from side-B is scary.

That side B is scary news bro, he hits like a DOOMTRAIN from Final Fantasy....your not gonna be the same afterwards.

Why do people always say CPs change the ratio?
If the character can get an even MU 2 out of 3 games how is that not even?
Take ICs vs G&W for example. ICs **** G&W on just about every neutral. However the MU drastically changes on Brinstar/RC. Yet that MU is still terrible for G&W.

If it's not a neutral the situation changes depending on the stage.

 

[-Mars-]

Pretty much. An even matchup in Smash would imply that if you have major disadvantages on certain stages then you would need to possess advantages on other stages to tip it back into your favor.

At least that's how I see it.

Like Falco has FD and Japes against MK.

And Diddy has FD and probly some others.

 

[Kewkky]

Actually, I'm pretty sure we were just told to do it that way.

Oh, well my bad. I was under the impression that it was entirely up to you guys.

 

[Kaffei]

Why do people always say CPs change the ratio?
If the character can get an even MU 2 out of 3 games how is that not even?
Take ICs vs G&W for example. ICs **** G&W on just about every neutral. However the MU drastically changes on Brinstar/RC. Yet that MU is still terrible for G&W.

r u stupid or wat

 

[Chuee]

Really?

Look at it this way. If a character has a **** CP, and then the other 2 games will be even, the character who doesn't have a **** CP is basically forced to win game 1, or they auto lose the set. That is why good CPs change the ratio. The reason this doesn't hold true to GaW is because IC's **** on both starter stage and their CP. GaW's win is basically a waste of time :/.

Yeah, I guess, but it's not a auto-lose. Don't get me wrong MK is ridiculous on RC and Brinstar, but auto-lose? Definitely not.
@Mars: Japes is banned a lot now. And I don't think Falco and Diddy 'win' on their CPs (assuming MK bans FD)

 

[Alphicans]

With the stage list given, I agree that falco should not be 0 with MK. I think falco wins on FD, but only goes even on SV and BF. If pictochat was legal, then maybe I could see it being 0.

However, BF and SV are really great stages, and very well might be in falco's favor (one of them).

 

[Max Ketchum]

Pictochat is assumed to be legal for the matchup chart project.

 

[Alphicans]

Wtf really? I thought for sure it wasn't...

 

[Steam]

either way RC/Brinstar are infintely stronger CPs for MK than Picto is for Falco.

 

[Chuee]

either way RC/Brinstar are infintely stronger CPs for MK than Picto is for Falco.

RC/Brinstar are stronger CPs for MK than pretty much any other characters CP.

 

[LanceStern]

The characters that give MK a lot of trouble have been: Pikachu, Diddy, Snake, Olimar and occasionally Toon Link.

I could see why they are even. They have the traits necessary to beat MK (see topic)

 

[Steam]

RC/Brinstar are stronger CPs for MK than pretty much any other characters CP.

I know. I'm just saying this is why Falco/MK shouldn't be even

 

[theunabletable]

Fox beats MK... or ATLEAST it's even.

There's no way the matchup is MKs favor.

 

[-Mars-]

No. Toon Link gets destroyed by MK.

 

[LanceStern]

I've seen toon links frustrate MKs to no end. Maybe the MKs didn't know how to play it

 

[Steam]

I've seen toon links frustrate MKs to no end. Maybe the MKs didn't know how to play it

TL gets completely destroyed by MK... lul

 

[WindMajor]

Trust me when I say this. MK definitely beats Toon Link. I put TL vs MK at -2 in the MU chart for a reason (more like numerous but w/e).

 

[smashkng]

Ganon gets a free jab/Ftilt/Dtilt/Dash Attack from a grounded Gerudo depending on the character and this was known since 08. On MK and a few other characters, all of these follow-ups are true combos. And on every character it works at least one of these follow-ups except on Lucario, Falco and other Ganons (and Wario IF he DIes behind you).

 

[da K.I.D.]

Why do people always say CPs change the ratio?
If the character can get an even MU 2 out of 3 games how is that not even?
Take ICs vs G&W for example. ICs **** G&W on just about every neutral. However the MU drastically changes on Brinstar/RC. Yet that MU is still terrible for G&W.

personally, I think matchups should only be considered on the neutral stages. trying to come up with a number for the matchup is hard enough, but now youre trying to come up with an entirely new number for up to 5 different stages for that matchup, and than on top of that you have to decide how to accurately weigh those 5 different stage matchups into the overall matchup.

it just seems like too much work on something that a lot of people cant agree on to begin with.

Fox beats MK... or ATLEAST it's even.

There's no way the matchup is MKs favor.

i wish i knew you thought this way, I would have played some fox vs mk with you at pound.

 

[Ussi]

LOL what ^ That is so stupid!

Its because Pikachu uses splash when he hits the ground. He splashes up into the jab.

 

[Goldenadept]

aside from wolf losing to ROB i think his MU's are pretty much spot on

maybe he beats samus worse than that but who cares, its samus

 

[Ripple]

Fox beats MK... or ATLEAST it's even.

There's no way the matchup is MKs favor.

too bad no one other than M2K agrees with you

 

[SaveMeJebus]

too bad no one other than M2K agrees with you

What about TKD?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

too bad no one other than M2K agrees with you

Lots of people either agree with it or think it's even.

 

[NeoBatou]

Lots of people either agree with it or think it's even.

I can see why some people think it's even and I can see why some people think otherwise. It really just depends on how you do in the matchup personally.

I think it's even.

 

[solecalibur]

The characters that give MK a lot of trouble have been: Pikachu, Diddy, Snake, Olimar and occasionally Toon Link.

I could see why they are even. They have the traits necessary to beat MK (see topic)

Toon Link

Toon Link

k....

Fox beats MK... or ATLEAST it's even.

There's no way the matchup is MKs favor.

Until they bother to learn your MU. Its not in foxes favor or even by far

 

[vato_break]

So many people saying things in here that are merely opinion or incorrect LOL. Please people if you state something BACK IT UP.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Until they bother to learn your MU. Its not in foxes favor or even by far

That still doesn't explain how Japanese Foxes do so well against MK even though their MKs have been exposed to strong Foxes since '08. 3 years should be plenty time to learn the MU against a very common character in tournament.

inb4Japandoesntcount

 

[solecalibur]

That still doesn't explain how Japanese Foxes do so well against MK even though their MKs have been exposed to strong Foxes since '08. 3 years should be plenty time to learn the MU against a very common character in tournament.

inb4Japandoesntcount

You got a video or tounry results? (im going to bed so send it to me)
I've heard just about nothing from the Japanese smash scene

 

[Shaya]

hey Pierce you nub,
What's this BS I heard about you agreeing that Marth v Toon Link is even?

 

[NeoBatou]

So many people saying things in here that are merely opinion or incorrect LOL. Please people if you state something BACK IT UP.

People are never going to be satisfied even with proof unless it's a surefire fact.

(King DDD standing chaingrab on DK or DK infinite release grab on Ness/Lucas, etc......)

In this case, it's pure speculation and it's limited to player experience, so I don't think even showing video proof can reveal all the possibilities on the subject.

 

[Deleted member]

There is no way Fox beats MK, let alone goes even with him. When you look at the characters and what they can abuse, MK definitely has the upper hand. The only reason why some MK mains are losing is because Fox isn't a common threat for them to deal with in tournament. A Fox isn't going to win against a MK that knows the MU. Plain and simple. That on top of the major CP advantages MK has makes this impossible to be even.

And Toon Link gives MK trouble??? News to me...

 

[Orion*]

Spoiler

I hate you

Planking there is no answer to.

Keep the lead

Real talk: Under BBR Ruleset without a LGL yeah MK's favor.

You can DJ and fire lasers down at me

When you're getting beat down by someone, you'd want to save face by winning AT LEAST one match. Would YOU be okay using ICs/MK in friendlies against someone you don't know AFTER the tournament, and have them beat you in every single match? Some people sandbag in friendlies, but that statement sounds like everyone sandbags in friendlies when I'm quite sure there's more people who play seriously. Hell in PR NOBODY sandbags in friendlies, if you're ranked and/or famous then lose a match against some unranked player we troll you hardcore for it. What makes it even worse is how people say that Kirby can't win against MK, and how MK is a worse MU for Kirby than ZSS is, yet I still won them all.

Anyway, the point of what I said was he's not a higher-leveled player, and it was cuz of a misunderstanding which I admitted to. Water under the bridge, live and let live.

People don't like to friendly my ice climbers >_> it's kinda annoying but anyways LOL

Not really winning/losing to me is irrelevant in friendlies- as long as I'm learning. I try to personally not care about the outcome of the match because all it does is stress me for the tournament, and I would rather just get better.

Just try new ****- the same thing goes w/ mms for me tbh unless its like I have a personal salt against the person

I do know what you're saying though. Thio really isnt great at this game

But as far as understanding it when he isnt being a **** or trolling he knows what he's talking about