Pierce7d
Wise Hermit
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2006
- Messages
- 6,289
- 3DS FC
- 1993-9028-0439
Opinons on Marth vs. TL
Very stage dependent MU. Due to Boomerang's anti-air abilities, it can be very, very difficult for Marth to get in on Toon Link. Marth WILL take damage trying to hunt down a Toon Link who understand how to use all his tools. Additionally, if the Toon Link can SDI Dancing Blade, he is difficult to punish. Marth's real damage comes from finally catching the Toon Link, and punishing him offstage. Platform layout has a LOT to do with this. Since Toon Link's jump and overall mobility is so ridiculous, Marth must depend on waiting, reads, and his range to capture and punish Toon Link's camping. This is a close MU, and it's very stage dependant. Even or very slight advantage to Marth, but leaning towards even at this point in time.
Opinions on MK vs. TL.
LOL, FOR ONCE, I'll say that this is where MK is like Marth, but better. MK can hunt Toon Link much easier because Mach Tornado leads to easy catches, MK has better ground speed than Marth, and MK can actually commit to chasing Toon Link in the air. Since Toon Link isn't really a grounded character, Marth's sweeping and limiting Fair hitbox isn't broken in that MU, so MK's Fair does what it needs to do. Shuttle Loop threatening easy kills, especially off Toon Link trying to pull a bomb (hence having lag and possibly bad DI) also aid MK tremendously. Otherwise, the MU plays out about the same as I just described with Marth. Being able to fly and chase Toon Link into the air, and EASILY catch his landings makes a big difference though, so this is a SOLID disadvantage for Toon Link.
Opinions of Fox vs. MK
First, I'll comment on the video above. Those players were relatively skilled. I saw a lot of American habits, so I'm quite surprised on how Japan's metagame has progressed.
First off, Fox's Triple Laser technology is really underrated. If you are distant from Fox at any time, you are taking damage, and you cannot avoid it. When I'm fighting Fox, I just pretend that the air during the match is poison gas, and Fox is wearing the gas mask. That is literally what happens to your percent.
The fastest way to approach Fox for MK is grounded. MK is slow in the air, and the air means more lasers. Even still, ALL of MK's grounded approaches are easily counter-able by Fox. Fox' SHAD is really amazing, as it leaves Fox with very little opening. Mach Tornado is easily blocked, and difficult to catch Fox with, as he spends little time off the ground. Fox is also easily able to Full Hop over Mach Tornado, and his rising speed rivals his Falling Speed. Standard grounded approaches give Fox the option to SHDair, which solidly beats tilts, grabs, or Dash attack. Dair also as good combo potential, although it can be SDIed. Fox' Bair is also safe on block, and I believe if done PERFECTLY is actually +4 on block, although this may not be possible on MK, due to MK's height (or lack of height)
If you pick any option that is not block, and Fox decides to Usmash, it is likely to trade. Since Usmash comes out really fast (I believe Frame 8) and Fox's dash speed is really dumb, this makes it extremely risky to even MOVE around Fox once you start getting in kill percent range. Just to give you an idea of how amazing this move is, against Marth, Fox is able to punish a tipper rising Fair that is fully retreated on block with shield drop -> Dash into Usmash.
Aside from this, Fox still has Dash attack, which is even faster. This means that waiting in range of Fox is tricky, unless you intend to block. Since blocking is now such a necessary option against Fox, it enables him to grab you. His grab game is quite powerful, as his Dthrow does 8 percent, and of course, this gives him distance. To laser you is completely safe, and refreshes all his moves. Considering his pummel is also good, his moveset is relatively fresh all the time, meaning that he can use Usmash freely to deliver damage. Usmash deals 18%. MK dies to Fresh Usmash at 96% (before the hit) on FD I THINK.
Addition to all of this, with platforms, Fox has excellent escape options. He can dance on top of them, and since he can just bounce around on them, he's exceptionally difficult to pressure. For sure, this is a situation MK WANTS to get Fox in, but it's still really hard to get while he's on a platform.
MK manages to punish Fox seriously when he lands a hit though. Between combos and edgeguards, MK definitely keeps himself in this game. Fox is relatively light himself, and can be comboed and edgeguarded effectively by MK. Additonally, MK can keep himself relatively safe, but the lasers do force him to approach. His UpB, Mach Tornado, and overall range and dashing shield give him decent options. Unfortunately, his Fair is unsafe as all hell, so to even attempt using it in any way except retreating Fair from a range as zoning will get him punished (unless his opponent is airborne at the time). Of course, zoning Fox is pointless, as he will laser you to death.
Due to Fox' amazing mix-ups at close range (jump escape, Dash Attack, Usmash, Grab, cross up, airdodge, amongst other standard options), ability to continuously force an approach and constantly wrack up damage, keep his moveset extremely fresh at all times, combo MK into kill percents relatively quickly, and K.O. MK with the softest of reads, even off easy trades, Fox definitely gives MK a hard run for his money in the head to head MU.
As far as stages are concerned, MK's counterpicks are more powerful than Fox', but Fox does have counterpicks. In addition to Fox having advantage on Battlefield and FD, Fox navigates Smashville exceptionally well. Yoshi's is variable, but it probably hinders MK about the same amount that it hinders Fox. Fox' recovery is dampened on Lylat, and his laser game is slightly affected, but I believe Fox' platform cancel game is underdeveloped, so I'm withholding my opinion on that stage for now.
I'm unsure what this MU looks like on PS1 at the moment, but I can't imagine Fox doing very poorly there.
Halberd is also extremely powerful for Fox. Killing MK below 90% consistently is just straight up ridiculous. It also has an excellent design to Fox to escape, and supports his laser based play.
I definitely do feel that MK's counterpicks against Fox are stronger than Fox' counterpicks against MK, but Fox DOES have strong counter-picks against MK, and I expect Fox to come out on top in the neutral, unless the ruleset has like, both Castle Seige and Delfino as neutral, in which case it's still a toss up.
Planking is also an issue, but it is realistic to expect Fox to gain AND keep the lead. Lasers automatically start Fox with the lead on most stages.
For this reason, I believe that the Fox MK MU is even, and leaning a tad bit more towards Fox, if he truly masters his defensive mix-ups.
Very stage dependent MU. Due to Boomerang's anti-air abilities, it can be very, very difficult for Marth to get in on Toon Link. Marth WILL take damage trying to hunt down a Toon Link who understand how to use all his tools. Additionally, if the Toon Link can SDI Dancing Blade, he is difficult to punish. Marth's real damage comes from finally catching the Toon Link, and punishing him offstage. Platform layout has a LOT to do with this. Since Toon Link's jump and overall mobility is so ridiculous, Marth must depend on waiting, reads, and his range to capture and punish Toon Link's camping. This is a close MU, and it's very stage dependant. Even or very slight advantage to Marth, but leaning towards even at this point in time.
Opinions on MK vs. TL.
LOL, FOR ONCE, I'll say that this is where MK is like Marth, but better. MK can hunt Toon Link much easier because Mach Tornado leads to easy catches, MK has better ground speed than Marth, and MK can actually commit to chasing Toon Link in the air. Since Toon Link isn't really a grounded character, Marth's sweeping and limiting Fair hitbox isn't broken in that MU, so MK's Fair does what it needs to do. Shuttle Loop threatening easy kills, especially off Toon Link trying to pull a bomb (hence having lag and possibly bad DI) also aid MK tremendously. Otherwise, the MU plays out about the same as I just described with Marth. Being able to fly and chase Toon Link into the air, and EASILY catch his landings makes a big difference though, so this is a SOLID disadvantage for Toon Link.
Opinions of Fox vs. MK
First, I'll comment on the video above. Those players were relatively skilled. I saw a lot of American habits, so I'm quite surprised on how Japan's metagame has progressed.
First off, Fox's Triple Laser technology is really underrated. If you are distant from Fox at any time, you are taking damage, and you cannot avoid it. When I'm fighting Fox, I just pretend that the air during the match is poison gas, and Fox is wearing the gas mask. That is literally what happens to your percent.
The fastest way to approach Fox for MK is grounded. MK is slow in the air, and the air means more lasers. Even still, ALL of MK's grounded approaches are easily counter-able by Fox. Fox' SHAD is really amazing, as it leaves Fox with very little opening. Mach Tornado is easily blocked, and difficult to catch Fox with, as he spends little time off the ground. Fox is also easily able to Full Hop over Mach Tornado, and his rising speed rivals his Falling Speed. Standard grounded approaches give Fox the option to SHDair, which solidly beats tilts, grabs, or Dash attack. Dair also as good combo potential, although it can be SDIed. Fox' Bair is also safe on block, and I believe if done PERFECTLY is actually +4 on block, although this may not be possible on MK, due to MK's height (or lack of height)
If you pick any option that is not block, and Fox decides to Usmash, it is likely to trade. Since Usmash comes out really fast (I believe Frame 8) and Fox's dash speed is really dumb, this makes it extremely risky to even MOVE around Fox once you start getting in kill percent range. Just to give you an idea of how amazing this move is, against Marth, Fox is able to punish a tipper rising Fair that is fully retreated on block with shield drop -> Dash into Usmash.
Aside from this, Fox still has Dash attack, which is even faster. This means that waiting in range of Fox is tricky, unless you intend to block. Since blocking is now such a necessary option against Fox, it enables him to grab you. His grab game is quite powerful, as his Dthrow does 8 percent, and of course, this gives him distance. To laser you is completely safe, and refreshes all his moves. Considering his pummel is also good, his moveset is relatively fresh all the time, meaning that he can use Usmash freely to deliver damage. Usmash deals 18%. MK dies to Fresh Usmash at 96% (before the hit) on FD I THINK.
Addition to all of this, with platforms, Fox has excellent escape options. He can dance on top of them, and since he can just bounce around on them, he's exceptionally difficult to pressure. For sure, this is a situation MK WANTS to get Fox in, but it's still really hard to get while he's on a platform.
MK manages to punish Fox seriously when he lands a hit though. Between combos and edgeguards, MK definitely keeps himself in this game. Fox is relatively light himself, and can be comboed and edgeguarded effectively by MK. Additonally, MK can keep himself relatively safe, but the lasers do force him to approach. His UpB, Mach Tornado, and overall range and dashing shield give him decent options. Unfortunately, his Fair is unsafe as all hell, so to even attempt using it in any way except retreating Fair from a range as zoning will get him punished (unless his opponent is airborne at the time). Of course, zoning Fox is pointless, as he will laser you to death.
Due to Fox' amazing mix-ups at close range (jump escape, Dash Attack, Usmash, Grab, cross up, airdodge, amongst other standard options), ability to continuously force an approach and constantly wrack up damage, keep his moveset extremely fresh at all times, combo MK into kill percents relatively quickly, and K.O. MK with the softest of reads, even off easy trades, Fox definitely gives MK a hard run for his money in the head to head MU.
As far as stages are concerned, MK's counterpicks are more powerful than Fox', but Fox does have counterpicks. In addition to Fox having advantage on Battlefield and FD, Fox navigates Smashville exceptionally well. Yoshi's is variable, but it probably hinders MK about the same amount that it hinders Fox. Fox' recovery is dampened on Lylat, and his laser game is slightly affected, but I believe Fox' platform cancel game is underdeveloped, so I'm withholding my opinion on that stage for now.
I'm unsure what this MU looks like on PS1 at the moment, but I can't imagine Fox doing very poorly there.
Halberd is also extremely powerful for Fox. Killing MK below 90% consistently is just straight up ridiculous. It also has an excellent design to Fox to escape, and supports his laser based play.
I definitely do feel that MK's counterpicks against Fox are stronger than Fox' counterpicks against MK, but Fox DOES have strong counter-picks against MK, and I expect Fox to come out on top in the neutral, unless the ruleset has like, both Castle Seige and Delfino as neutral, in which case it's still a toss up.
Planking is also an issue, but it is realistic to expect Fox to gain AND keep the lead. Lasers automatically start Fox with the lead on most stages.
For this reason, I believe that the Fox MK MU is even, and leaning a tad bit more towards Fox, if he truly masters his defensive mix-ups.
