Official BBR Matchup Chart v1.0

[etecoon]

Since when was pointing out how you punish mistakes a bad thing?
punishing mistakes is the core of brawl.

but it's not normal for meta knight players to make mistakes, they're all soulless robots

 

[stingers]

eti just quit smash
just quit
quit

 

[da K.I.D.]

what im saying is, you cant push the notion that fox is good against nado, if all you have to do is change the spacing and timing of it and all of a sudden fox isnt good against nado anymore.

 

[Coney]

you can't push EITHER notion

"well maybe the MK will be smarter with his nado use"
"well maybe the fox will be smarter with his nado prediction and punishment"

both are assuming the same thing

though admittedly there are circumstances where nado is pretty much unavoidable

 

[Rizk18]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ND-yi3IPKXM 0:52 to 1:12.

How was that teleport thing even possible?? Wow that was amazing. I didn't know SDI did that.

 

[da K.I.D.]

you can't push EITHER notion

"well maybe the MK will be smarter with his nado use"
"well maybe the fox will be smarter with his nado prediction and punishment"

both are assuming the same thing

though admittedly there are circumstances where nado is pretty much unavoidable

it would be different if there was a guaranteed way to punish it for hitting you, but as it stands all he said was that fox gets a free aerial if the mk lets the fox fall directly into the center and if the mk shifts the nado a certain way the aerial clanks and fox takes all the damage.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Why is Wolf even with Peach? He has an advantage on her. He always has had an advantage on her. Change that to +1...And D3 is -3, not -2...

 

[Alphicans]

Lol. Maybe ask the peach's about their opinion? Just because the wolf's think that doesn't mean the peaches do. Same goes for the D3's.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Lol. Maybe ask the peach's about their opinion? Just because the wolf's think that doesn't mean the peaches do. Same goes for the D3's.

The Peach's think she's even with D3?!?!?!?

 

[Alphicans]

Uhh I am not sure, I didn't pay attention to their discussion. My point is that just because one side thinks it's one way, doesn't mean the other sides does/should think that way as well. I am all for opinions, but coming in here and saying things like they are absolute fact is annoying. Especially when the numbers themselves and what they mean are up for a lot of interpretation.

 

[Steam]

The Peach's think she's even with D3?!?!?!?

It's peach, the "good in theory" character.

 

[Espy Rose]

Is he still active?

Yeah. He just snagged 4th at a local here in town. He's doing very, very well.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

it's been 3 pages. i have indeed lol'd.

so besides this pointless fox vs. mk thing which will most like be RESEARCHED by the bbr, wat else makes a good topic.

also, does anyone else feel D3 is too high on the analysis tier? i mean his disadvantaged match ups are greater than even Toon Links and his advantages (even tho they are against high tiers mostly) still should place him lower imo

also, idk what her D3 mu is but peach does indeed kick ***. no questioning that

 

[_Kain_]

it's been 3 pages. i have indeed lol'd.

so besides this pointless fox vs. mk thing which will most like be RESEARCHED by the bbr, wat else makes a good topic.

also, does anyone else feel D3 is too high on the analysis tier? i mean his disadvantaged match ups are greater than even Toon Links and his advantages (even tho they are against high tiers mostly) still should place him lower imo

also, idk what her D3 mu is but peach does indeed kick ***. no questioning that

You say your laughing at the MK-Fox thing, which is actually a good arguement. Then you say something like Peach kicks ***......

You should be laughing at yourself sir

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

i am laughing at myself. and while it is a great argument, it's not going anywhere. it's just the same opinions being stated in different words.

also @ kain.
dude you are one of my five smash heroes. me and my friend pulse loves your stuff. seriously dude keep repping wolf hardcore.

lastly.... who want's to come have some more budweiser here with me? god damn i love bud. such a great beer. although i got to say i do love heinekin and dos equis too. any1 down? **** it im watching trigun

 

[Judo777]

Hey guys don't assume that each board voted for their char to have the better MU. Perhaps it was the D3's that said that they thought peach went even meanwhile the peaches thought they lost or something. I think that happened just as much as the opposite.

I think the main reason D3 is as high as he is because not only can he at leats manage the higher tiers (like Snake, Diddy, Wario and the others are too horrible) he renders literally 70% of C tier and below unviable.

 

[Seagull Joe]

i am laughing at myself. and while it is a great argument, it's not going anywhere. it's just the same opinions being stated in different words.

also @ kain.
dude you are one of my five smash heroes. me and my friend pulse loves your stuff. seriously dude keep repping wolf hardcore.

lastly.... who want's to come have some more budweiser here with me? god damn i love bud. such a great beer. although i got to say i do love heinekin and dos equis too. any1 down? **** it im watching trigun

Who're the other 4?

 

[Coney]

peach/ddd IS even, it's just...

no peach has reached the level to make it even, to be frank

if there was a top-level, evasive peach that could effectively and consistently free-pull turnips, she would have more mobility and a much greater chance of actually timing out DDD and not having to worry about killing

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

i am laughing at myself. and while it is a great argument, it's not going anywhere. it's just the same opinions being stated in different words.

also @ kain.
dude you are one of my five smash heroes. me and my friend pulse loves your stuff. seriously dude keep repping wolf hardcore.

lastly.... who want's to come have some more budweiser here with me? god damn i love bud. such a great beer. although i got to say i do love heinekin and dos equis too. any1 down? **** it im watching trigun

Uhh...lets avoid this talk shall we.

 

[Eddie G]

Seagull we must do dittos next time. Wolf has always been fun and I want to start busting mine out more. And my Marth too.

@ Thread- Peach/D3 as even is...well...true, but what do I care since I don't encounter him much other than Lain and Tmacc. I usually just go Pikachu anyway instead of trying to weather the storm and outlast D3's great durability. A free-pulling Peach who doesn't fudge up to the point of letting D3 get massive damage in all too often can certainly play the matchup on even ground. I personally believe the European Peach player Yami could be capable of this, seeing as he seems to have one of the tightest levels of control on the character and her B-sticking.

I also agree with Seagull that Wolf has a slight advantage on Peach. I've played enough good Wolf players to know that is a fact (most notably DarkLouis, Kain, and Seagull himself).

 

[DewDaDash]

I don't mean to disagree with you coney, but its not 50-50. As much as I'd like to make some ridiculous claim like I did back in the ddd mu boards, this is for real. I beat UmbreonMow pretty consistently when he was down in FL, and im guessing you've played him every now and then, so you can kind of know where I'm coming from. If that doesn't say much then who would you consider a top peach player? Last tourney I played a peach player, I 3stocked kyon (who is arguably the best peach atm.... (sry kyon if you namesearch this, I just want to inform ppl of the mu, <3) Are there any other peach players besides him and DarkPch? The tourney b4 that I think I beat him also but i think it was 2 stock (I might be thinking of Hiroi, but I think I played both of them in bracket at wato, can't remember.

One thing i do take back though from the ddd mus i mentioned, is fox is def not 50-50 or in our favor XD At best its prob 45-55 like u said b4.

To give a fair interpretation of the mu, Id probably say 55-45 against peach. Any higher than that is open for discussion, but its def not any lower than that.

 

[da K.I.D.]

lol @ are there any peach players besides dark peach and kyon.

i ...

i dont even...

lool.

what?

i mean, i guess it makes sence, since theres like 7 peach players, but at this point I cant say theyre not all essentially the same person. theyre all at the same level and they all could stand to get better.

 

[Coney]

I don't mean to disagree with you coney, but its not 50-50. As much as I'd like to make some ridiculous claim like I did back in the ddd mu boards, this is for real. I beat UmbreonMow pretty consistently when he was down in FL, and im guessing you've played him every now and then, so you can kind of know where I'm coming from. If that doesn't say much then who would you consider a top peach player? Last tourney I played a peach player, I 3stocked kyon (who is arguably the best peach atm.... (sry kyon if you namesearch this, I just want to inform ppl of the mu, <3) Are there any other peach players besides him and DarkPch? The tourney b4 that I think I beat him also but i think it was 2 stock (I might be thinking of Hiroi, but I think I played both of them in bracket at wato, can't remember.

One thing i do take back though from the ddd mus i mentioned, is fox is def not 50-50 or in our favor XD At best its prob 45-55 like u said b4.

oh no, please understand, i think peach is in our favor...i might even put it as +2 us, to be honest

however i think if the peach is like, future 2020 peach with freepulls and get-the-****-away and a mindset to just literally time out with turnip camping, i THINK it'd close the deficit and make it even

the peaches asked for it to be even and since i honestly think a perfect peach WOULD go even, i was okay with it...but there's yet to be a peach like that.

 

[Eddie G]

I don't mean to disagree with you coney, but its not 50-50. As much as I'd like to make some ridiculous claim like I did back in the ddd mu boards, this is for real. I beat UmbreonMow pretty consistently when he was down in FL, and im guessing you've played him every now and then, so you can kind of know where I'm coming from. If that doesn't say much then who would you consider a top peach player? Last tourney I played a peach player, I 3stocked kyon (who is arguably the best peach atm.... (sry kyon if you namesearch this, I just want to inform ppl of the mu, <3) Are there any other peach players besides him and DarkPch? The tourney b4 that I think I beat him also but i think it was 2 stock (I might be thinking of Hiroi, but I think I played both of them in bracket at wato, can't remember.

One thing i do take back though from the ddd mus i mentioned, is fox is def not 50-50 or in our favor XD At best its prob 45-55 like u said b4.

You might want to get some more Peaches of a similar level under your belt before you can truly make that claim. I suggest playing Razmakazi since he has a lot of experience in the Peach/D3 matchup. I'm fairly experienced with it as well. Nicole seems to be competent at it as well from what I've seen. I'm not sure about Illmatic's experience with the matchup. Then you have SSR who took Coney to last hit, etc. There's a world beyond Florida's beautiful weather and hot chicks (but stay there, it's too incredible lmao).

@ Coney- If Leon (well composed all around), Yami (technical with near flawless B-sticking), LLOD (patience of a thousand Sonics with some MK expertise to boot), and Nicole (Expertise on MK and ability to make a lasting impact when it counts) all did a fusion dance, we'd have that Peach.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

Who're the other 4?

in order it goes like this for smash heroes:

mikehaze cause quite frankly who can deny that mikehaze is amazing? he (and the flashy mr. r inspired me to use marth. but R isn't one of my 5) is the reason i took up marth ever

DUH ZEX because i am from norcal originally and he is a great guy not to mention he owns at this game especially in doubles

boss because how do you get that good with luigi? seriously he is just so cool like that you know? plus he has a sweet playstyle.

FOW because quite frankly ive never seen a ness (or any low tier for that matter) take third at a national like WGF4 especially since i had front row seating there.

and kain because dude, it's wolf. and you make him seem so great and cool it's just sweet to watch. also because of how epicly you play wolf.


so there you are seagull man. those are my 5 smash heroes and why

 

[DewDaDash]

I looked at the MUs, one thing im kind of puzzeled is, is ICs really harder for us than MK? I mean me personally, I could possibly make the claim, but that would be unfair since I don't know the MU at all. I usually thought all ddds claim that mk is our hardest mu.

And for the record, i've heard nicole too as another peach player, but I have no idea how well she does so I didnt comment on that. I'm not trying to give a bad interpretation of the mu either, I just can comment on what peach players I have played/seen. @kbizzle, maybe, but I've never played any of them and kind of doubt id get a chance to play em in the future. But thats three solid peach players I've played (mow is pretty solid imo, even tho he doesnt really play that much), so thats just how i feel on the MU. Maybe if there is some element im overlooking or the metagame hasnt been developed by peach players fully like coney stated, but the characters are limited to certain boundaries so who knows I guess....

 

[M@v]

I was real busy this weekend and just noticed this now, awesome job with it guys!

I obviously have some disagreements(who wouldnt with a list this big), but I'll address them later plus overall its great. Glad you guys put the work into this.

 

[Coney]

I looked at the MUs, one thing im kind of puzzeled is, is ICs really harder for us than MK?

no, it's not

but the MKs wouldn't make it +3 for them, so there you go

 

[Browny]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5poI0rdvvs&feature=related

That's probably the best example of the MU I've seen thus far, from both side... until the last stock when shu's dsmash doesn't kill and his playing goes to hell. The first match wasn't too bad, but shu did a few really stupid things that hurt him.
Idk, while fox can definitely get the damage up there really easily, it seems REALLY hard for fox to kill MK if MK is dead-set on play safe.
I can definitely see it being Fox's favor on FD, but, MK will bad that so that doesn't matter, and I can see it being even on SV. BF and Halberd not sure. After that I can't see it NOT being MK's advantage on every other stage, although not by much (other than the obvious Brinstar.)

/random nobody's opinion.

EDIT: Fox's fair is dumb, 24 damage, wtf. Thank goodness there's SDI. Also, Gheb, when did Shu start using MK? I liked his snake...

yeah yeah im late

but this mk just rain into so many dairs. Almost every time fox was above him, he challenged the dair and lost so often. I think this match would be vastly different if MK camped foxes landing instead of taking cheap damage and giving fox a free landing >_<

 

[Spelt]

yeah yeah im late

but this mk just rain into so many dairs. Almost every time fox was above him, he challenged the dair and lost so often. I think this match would be vastly different if MK camped foxes landing instead of taking cheap damage and giving fox a free landing >_<

It's painfully obvious you went into that video intent on finding something to criticize just to make it seem like it's not a good example of the MU.

 

[NeoBatou]

I think Illmatic hasn't played a lot of DDD players. Houston has a good variation of players....

Usually he plays MK, Falco, Ice Climbers, a lot of Toon Links, Rob and Olimar players.

I dunno I'll have to ask him myself on what he thinks the match up is.

 

[Browny]

nope spelt

Why exactly would I care if it is a good or bad version of the matchup? I had no idea how the match was going to turn out and I dont care about the fox vs MK MU, hence why I havent said anything here lol.

 

[da K.I.D.]

you guys are mistaken,

Browny just goes into EVERYTHING looking for something negative to say.

 

[theunabletable]

but this mk just rain into so many dairs. Almost every time fox was above him, he challenged the dair and lost so often. I think this match would be vastly different if MK camped foxes landing instead of taking cheap damage and giving fox a free landing >_<

And the Fox made mistakes and had habits, too. Like every time he was on the right side of the stage and the MK grabbed him while facing to the right, and Dthrew him, he'd DI in.

Doesn't make the match worthless, just means that the metagame hasn't completely evolved yet lol

they're not perfect, it's just a good representation of the matchup, for the most part.

(who is arguably the best peach atm.... (sry kyon if you namesearch this, I just want to inform ppl of the mu, <3) Are there any other peach players besides him and DarkPch?

Razmakazi's good. Out of the Peach's I've played, he's definitely the toughest.

/meatriding

 

[vato_break]

Razmakazi is definately the best peach i've seen at the D3 matchup

 

[Mr. Doom]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ND-yi3IPKXM 0:52 to 1:12.

Sometimes I even amaze myself.

 

[MJG]

How was that teleport thing even possible?? Wow that was amazing. I didn't know SDI did that.

I taught him everything he knows

 

[Mr. Doom]

I don't know what you're talking about. I'm a self-taught sucker of SDI. Even DMG didn't teach me that shiz.

 

[Zeton]

I don't know what you're talking about. I'm a self-taught sucker of SDI. Even DMG didn't teach me that shiz.

The truth.

 

[Chuee]

yeah yeah im late

but this mk just rain into so many dairs. Almost every time fox was above him, he challenged the dair and lost so often. I think this match would be vastly different if MK camped foxes landing instead of taking cheap damage and giving fox a free landing >_<

Actually think about it before you say stupid stuff like this. The fox used SH dair to beat out ftilt, dtilt, dsmash, etc. Also, you say he gave him free landings.....
Watch the other vids on that channel and you'll see. Those MKs did NOT give Fox free landings.
At all.